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wwwmwww
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Post subject: Multidodecahedron
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Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2009 12:57 pm
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Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 12:09 pm
Website: http://www.wwwmwww.com/
Location: Queen Creek, AZ
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Hello...
There are the Super-Super cubes that can be played with using CubixPlayer2 available here. In this thread it has been suggested these be called Super Multicubes so the notion of a Super sticker set which forces just one solution can be dropped. In that case that thread is about Multicubes... this one is about Multidodecahedrons.
And I see two possible types of Multidodecahedrons. I don't think either type has been made into physical puzzles by anyone.. yet. And I'm also not aware of any software programs like CubixPlayer2 that allow people to play with them either. If they're out there PLEASE point me to them. If not... maybe this thread will spark some interest and a programer who is better then myself might take a shot at these.
Type I (the most obvious)
You could have a megaminx, inside a gigaminx, inside a teraminx, inside a petaminx, etc. These would follow as a natural extension to the CubixPlayer2 program and you could super-super solve them with the right sticker set.
Type II (I don't believe there is a cubic analogy to this)
Think of this sequence of face turn dodecahedrons:
Megaminx
Pyraminx Crystal
Starminx
Pentultimate
These 4 puzzles contain the following types of pieces...
(1) Fixed face centers (from the Megaminx)
(2) Anchored edges (from the Megaminx)
(3) Anchored corners (from the Megaminx)
(4) Floating edges (from the Pyraminx Crystal)
(5) Floating face pieces (from the Starminx)
(6) Floating face centers (from the Starminx)
(7) Floating corners (from the Pentultimate)
And I think one way to actually build a Pentultimate would actually contain all these pieces... granted only the floating face centers and the floating corners are visable. But assume you had a program that lets you play with the underlying Megaminx while still showing all the floating pieces above. You could solve all of these puzzles simultainously as you could with the 2x2x2, 4x4x4, and 6x6x6 using CubixPlayer2. In fact if you had a physical Pentultimate built in this fashion you might be able to drill a few holes that would allow you to see the hidden pieces and if they were stickered you might have this puzzle. The reason I say might is due to the Pentultimate being a deep cut puzzle and as such you only really have access to half of the turns possible on the underlying Megaminx. If you had a program to simulate it that's why I think the solver should have access to make his moves on the Megaminx. Maybe the program could let the user choose to apply the move to the Pentultimate too but I think that would be a different puzzle... maybe even harder.
Have either of these Multidodecahedrons been discussed before? I'd love to be able to actually play with either... even if it was just a simulation program. I really doubt either of these is all that new of an idea so I'm curious what else is out there.
Thanks,
Carl
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Last edited by wwwmwww on Tue Sep 22, 2009 4:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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elijah
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Post subject: Re: Multidodecahedron
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Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 5:17 pm
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Joined: Sat Mar 29, 2008 12:55 am
Location: WA, USA
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I'm not sure I understand the second type...
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wwwmwww
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Post subject: Re: Multidodecahedron
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Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 5:35 pm
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Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 12:09 pm
Website: http://www.wwwmwww.com/
Location: Queen Creek, AZ
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elijah wrote:I'm not sure I understand the second type...
Well let's look at just these two face turn dodecahedrons:
Megaminx
Pyraminx Crystal
Would you agree that if you could solve this puzzle:
Hybrid Megaminx-Pyraminx Crystal
This its like solving a Megaminx and a Pyraminx Crystal at the same time?
Well you should be able to solve all of these face turn dodecahedrons together as well.
Megaminx
Pyraminx Crystal
Starminx
Pentultimate
Think of a screen that showed all 4 puzzles side-by-side. Any face turn made on one puzzle is made to all 4. Use that method to scrable the puzzle... now try to solve all these puzzles simultaneously using that method.
Carl
P.S. I have a PM that suggests this type 2 multidodecahedron should have more then 7 types of pieces. I'm still trying to understand the notation that was used to prove that point but if I get if figured out I'll post it here. I may also try to make some pretty pictures using POV-Ray to show what this type 2 multidodecahedron could look like.
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elijah
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Post subject: Re: Multidodecahedron
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Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 5:47 pm
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Joined: Sat Mar 29, 2008 12:55 am
Location: WA, USA
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well, that'd be nice, the pictures that is.
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wwwmwww
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Post subject: Re: Multidodecahedron
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Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 6:33 pm
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Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 12:09 pm
Website: http://www.wwwmwww.com/
Location: Queen Creek, AZ
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elijah wrote:well, that'd be nice, the pictures that is.
It will take me some time to model and animate this in POV-Ray but here is a simple face being turned 180 degrees on this Multidodecahedron.
Carl
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Darren Grewe
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Post subject: Re: Multidodecahedron
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Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 4:20 pm
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Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2000 2:51 am
Website: http://twistypuzzles.com/cgi-bin/cm-view.cgi?mid=68
Location: New Ulm, Minnesota, USA
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wwwmwww wrote:elijah wrote:well, that'd be nice, the pictures that is.
It will take me some time to model and animate this in POV-Ray but here is a simple face being turned 180 degrees on this Multidodecahedron.
Carl
Aren't you forgetting one? Better yet does this even count as one?
The Big Chop
http://users.skynet.be/gelatinbrain/App ... eca_e2.htm
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Darren & Traiphum's Dual Helicoptrahedron
X-TownCuber wrote:Are my eyes deceiving me, or is this the coolest puzzle ever?
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wwwmwww
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Post subject: Re: Multidodecahedron
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Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 6:36 pm
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Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 12:09 pm
Website: http://www.wwwmwww.com/
Location: Queen Creek, AZ
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No... the Big Chop isn't a face turning dodecahedron. It turns on the edges. As such it can't be found inside my type 2 face turning multidodecahedron. I'm about to post some pictures that should help make things easier to see.
Carl
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wwwmwww
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Post subject: Re: Multidodecahedron
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Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 6:56 pm
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Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 12:09 pm
Website: http://www.wwwmwww.com/
Location: Queen Creek, AZ
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Ok... Here is an animation I made in POV-Ray. It shows the 8 pieces I've been able to find inside my Type 2 Face-Turning Multidodecahedron.
First a few comments about the animation. The cut planes are fixed in space and do NOT move. The Dodecahedron grows and the camera moves back so it just appears the Dodecahedron is fixed in size. Actually the final Dodecahedron is scaled up by a factor of 10 over the the one seen as the core of the puzzle. So in effect the final Dedecahedron has a volume 10x10x10 or 1000 times that of the core. I stopped short of the Pentultimate in the animation as this puzzle only approached that puzzle as its size approached infinite. Still the pieces of a Pentultimate are easilly identified on this puzzle so its there.
Now take the final Multidodecahedron and cut a slice into it parallel to the red face and identify all 7 pieces (aside from the core).
This slice is about the depth of one of the Megaminx faces. See... that puzzle is inside this one.
As is the Pyraminx Crystal.
And the Starminx.
Since some of the pieces can be seen twice in the large cross-section here is another image that I used to help identify all the areas in the large cross-section image.
So now I hope everyone can see why I call this a Multidodecahedron. Just as a 7x7x7 contains a 5x5x5 that in-turn contains a 3x3x3, I hope everyone can see that a Pentultimate contains a Starminx that in-turn contains a Pyraminx Crystal that in-turn contains a Megaminx.
I hope these images help...
Carl
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TBTTyler
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Post subject: Re: Multidodecahedron
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Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 7:20 pm
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Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2005 8:53 pm
Location: Los Angeles
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Hmm ... you could use curved (shallow helical?) cuts to make the inner puzzles closer together as you scale up the surface dodecahedron.
Also, I don't think that the infinite size pentultimate need be part of this progression. Once you make it to the star/pent hybrid, you won't ever add any new pieces. The pent would be purely cosmetic and (as was suggested) would only complicate things
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elijah
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Post subject: Re: Multidodecahedron
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Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 8:04 pm
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Joined: Sat Mar 29, 2008 12:55 am
Location: WA, USA
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well, that will nevber do, an infinite sized face turning dodecahedron?
Very very cool idea though... I'm not sure if there is anything even close to this cube-wise. I'm pretty sure there is only 1 type of face-turning cube and then higher orders.
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wwwmwww
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Post subject: Re: Multidodecahedron
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Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 9:53 am
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Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 12:09 pm
Website: http://www.wwwmwww.com/
Location: Queen Creek, AZ
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TBTTyler wrote:Hmm ... you could use curved (shallow helical?) cuts to make the inner puzzles closer together as you scale up the surface dodecahedron.
True. If you were to make one of these to play with physically you'd need to do something like that. Actually you don't even need to do that. You could just do this:
viewtopic.php?p=123059#p123059
the problem then becomes how do you see the inner puzzle (or puzzles). The point of the above images was just to help others see that these puzzles were indeed inside the Multidodecahedron and I didn't want to add any more complexity to the images then needed.
TBTTyler wrote:Also, I don't think that the infinite size pentultimate need be part of this progression. Once you make it to the star/pent hybrid, you won't ever add any new pieces. The pent would be purely cosmetic and (as was suggested) would only complicate things
Agreed... in fact you can actually think about this puzzle as just these two puzzles put together.
All 7 pieces are represented and the floating edges are on both. In fact these two puzzles on gelatinbrain:
Hybrid Megaminx-Pyraminx Crystal
Hybrid Starminx-Pentultimate
If played with similtaniously is really the only way to play with this Multidodecahedron currently. Anyone here know who made those Applets? I see this email address on that page [ gelatinbrain@skynet.be]. I'm thinking about emailing them and asking if an Applet could be made that would link these 2 and we could call it the Type 2 Face-Turn Multidodecahedron. I think it would be a fun new challenge to many solvers far better then myself.
Thoughts?
Carl
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elijah
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Post subject: Re: Multidodecahedron
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Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 10:41 am
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Joined: Sat Mar 29, 2008 12:55 am
Location: WA, USA
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neither of those puzzles exist though...
shouldn't you make both of those puzzles before making a hybrid out of them?
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wwwmwww
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Post subject: Re: Multidodecahedron
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Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 11:35 am
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Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 12:09 pm
Website: http://www.wwwmwww.com/
Location: Queen Creek, AZ
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elijah wrote:well, that will nevber do, an infinite sized face turning dodecahedron
Girl strolls up to guy... "Is that an infinite sized face turning dodecahedron in your pocket or are you just happy to see me?" Not a phrase I ever thought I would type.
elijah wrote:Very very cool idea though... I'm not sure if there is anything even close to this cube-wise. I'm pretty sure there is only 1 type of face-turning cube and then higher orders.
Looking at face turning cubes... I agree. However I believe some similar things should happen with corner turning cubes and edge turning cubes.
For example... (I haven't looked at these as closely)
I think there is a Dino Cube inside a Master Skewb.
And looking at edge turning cubes things get crazy fast. Not only is there jumbling but looking at Gelatinbrain it looks like there are 6 puzzles that could fit in a Little Chop. Actually since Little Chop is a deep cut puzzle and its pieces are represented on 3.3.6 I'd start there and look at the 5 puzzles inside it down to the Helicopter Cube. Actually you probably could go even further. You could have a Helicopter Cube with shallower cuts exposing the core. How many types of pieces are there in this Type 2 Edge-Turning Multicube? 9... *I think* Someone what to check me on that?
Carl
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TBTTyler
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Post subject: Re: Multidodecahedron
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Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 11:46 am
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Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2005 8:53 pm
Location: Los Angeles
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*forehead smack* Well DUH!  Of course you could "just do" that. I DID!
Ahh, but that's what it IS. Each layer might be a different shell bounded by a conical cut with the apex at the center, but a curve connecting the midpoints of those shells along a slicing plane makes that shallow helix.
elijah wrote:neither of those puzzles exist though...
shouldn't you make both of those puzzles before making a hybrid out of them?
But they do exist in the computer. Therefore you could make a hybrid out of them in the computer  |
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wwwmwww
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Post subject: Re: Multidodecahedron
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Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 11:47 am
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Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 12:09 pm
Website: http://www.wwwmwww.com/
Location: Queen Creek, AZ
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elijah wrote:neither of those puzzles exist though...
shouldn't you make both of those puzzles before making a hybrid out of them?
They both exist in bits and bytes over on Gelatinbrain. And I suspect its just a mater of time before someone makes these into physical puzzles. I'm just thinking ahead.
By the way, the Applets over at Gelatinbrain already display each move on two puzzles. One showing the front view and the other showing the back view. So how hard would it be to display a move on 4 images. This is the applet that I want...
I must admit I'm very curious how long it would take someone to solve it after such an applet were to appear.
Carl
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wwwmwww
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Post subject: Re: Multidodecahedron
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Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 3:05 pm
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Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 12:09 pm
Website: http://www.wwwmwww.com/
Location: Queen Creek, AZ
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wwwmwww wrote:For example... (I haven't looked at these as closely)
I think there is a Dino Cube inside a Master Skewb.
Ok... I took a closer look.
YES!! There is a Dino Cube inside a Master Skewb.
And I got to thinking about it and I had ALMOST convinced myself that the Master Skewb WAS the first Type 2 MultiPolyhedra to have actually been built. I noticed that the Dino Cube pieces are already represented on the surface of the Master Skewb as are the pieces of a normal Skewb (the dep cut case of the Corner-Turning Cube).
So why isn't the Master Skewb also considered the Type 2 Corner-Turning MultiCube? No... it's not because that nomenclature didn't exist before this week. It's because it's still missing 2 pieces. Inside the Dino Cube there exists this puzzle which exposes 2 pieces not seen on the Dino Cube or the Master Skewb... namely the core and the fixed (but rotatable) corners.
Interesting... I'll need to take a look at the Type 2 Edge-Turning MultiCube next.
Carl
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Julian
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Post subject: Re: Multidodecahedron
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Posted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 2:36 pm
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Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2008 4:52 am
Location: Somerset, UK
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wwwmwww wrote:By the way, the Applets over at Gelatinbrain already display each move on two puzzles. One showing the front view and the other showing the back view. So how hard would it be to display a move on 4 images. This is the applet that I want...
I must admit I'm very curious how long it would take someone to solve it after such an applet were to appear.
Carl
I'm not sure how I missed this thread when it first appeared! I'm replying to it now because it has been referenced in the closely related thread here.
In answer to your question, Carl, I'm sure that several of us could solve it the day it appeared, quite quickly. Just solve the upper 1.1.2 completely, which leaves the lower 1.1.6 unsolved except for the edges, then continue and finish a typical 1.1.6 solve, where the commutators used to cycle the remaining 3 piece types have no effect on the upper puzzle. I solve centers with (3,1) commutators, then quadrilaterals with (4,1) or (6,1) and finally corners with (6,1). |
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schuma
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Post subject: Re: Multidodecahedron
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Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 1:30 am
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Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2009 5:06 pm
Website: http://nan.ma
Location: Berkeley, CA, USA
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I'm sorry to bring this year-old post out. Unaware of this thread, I had the same idea today. I made an illustration of a face-turning octahedron with internal pieces, which is closely related to the "Dino cube inside a master skewb". I feel it's better to post it here rather than open a new thread.
The figure is an octahedron, cut by eight planes parallel to the faces. Different types of pieces are labeled with different colors. In this virtual puzzle, one can find all the pieces from Gelatin Brain's 4.1.1 through 4.1.4, plus a core (red) at the center. For example, the small blue pieces deep in the octahedron are the face-centers in 4.1.3. The yellow cheesehead-like pieces are the triangles on the faces of 4.1.2.
Since I have some experience solving 4D puzzles, I think I would be comfortable solving it in a viewpoint like this with partially transparent pieces, if there is such a program. I would also like to make a similar illustration for the dodecahedron mentioned by wwwmwww. It'll be very cool, but it'll have too many layers so that it's hard to see the inner pieces through the outer ones.
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Check out some virtual puzzles I created at http://nan.ma
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Brandon Enright
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Post subject: Re: Multidodecahedron
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Posted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 12:51 am
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Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2009 8:54 pm
Website: http://www.brandonenright.net
Location: Bay Area, California
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I didn't know about this thread until Schuma revived it. I'm glad he did though because it got me thinking about what it would take to solve a multi-dodecahedron or a multi-octahedron. I came to the same conclusion as Julian: not long at all.
I figured it would be a fun endeavor anyways though so here is my solution.
I used this scramble: Code: Select all /* Random Scramble */
[F2, I3, G3, L1, B1, F1, G3, E4, A1, J1, F2, H2, J2, I4, B2, J1, G4, E2, I2, A2, C2, A4, J3, H1, I3, F2, I1, L2, A3, J4, F3, D1, C1, J2, H2, E2, J2, L1, F3, L1, J1, B4, A1, F3, E3, A4, L1, H1, J1, I2, L2, F1, J1, F2, D2, I2, B3, F1, D1, J4, H1, L1, G1, C1, E2, F1, I1, L2, F1, H3, G4, F4, H1, G4, A3, J4, A4, J4, H1, J4, K2, J1, D1, J4, H1, E3, H3, A2, J1, E4, K4, I2, C2, B2, D3, C2, E4, B1, A4, E3, B1, H4, E3, B1, A2, E2, D3, F1, D1, C1, B2, K4, L2, H4, D2, K1, H2, I2, E1, J3, D4, H2, I1, B1, E2, H4, D2, L3, J2, H1, J2, A3, B4, J1, B4, I3, E3, A3, E3, D1, K1, D2, C4, I3, K3, G2, C1, L2, E4, H4, D1, H4, G1, A2, E2, B2, F2, D2, H1, L1, E1, G3, C1, L3, I3, C4, A3, B4, C3, E4, I1, L4, E1, J4, K3, E3, L4, A1, H1, J4, B3, F3, A2, B2, E3, J2, D2, H1, E4, J1, K1, A4, F1, B4, D1, L3, G4, K4, A1, L4, A2, K3, J1, H2, F3, H4, A4, L3, F1, I4, L4, I2, F2, E2, B3, L4, K2, D1, C3, F3, G1, K3, H3, F4, E1, K3, B2, E1, K2, B4, F1, J4, L2, K1, G1, L4, A4, L1, E3, B3, E3, L3, B4, L1, I2, K2, C2, F1, B4, A4, B3, H4, G4, A4, L3, H3, A4, C2, E1, C3, G2, A3, L2, F1, B2, A4, F1, E2, H3, B2, C4, B1, K4, B1, K2, H1, J1, A3, E3, D1, I4, D3, A4, H2, A4, C2, B3, E1, L3, F2, A4, B1, I3, L3, F4, L2, D1, C3, B4, L1, B3, H4, B2, C2, H4, A3, C3, G2, C2, A1, H1, J3, L3, A2, H2, A3, C2, G2, C2, A1, H1, J3, L1, J4, G4, H3, C1, L4, D2, H4, J2, G2, A1, D1, B2, J4, D1, A2, H1, A1, D4, C3, J4, E4, H3, J2, D1, K4, D1, L2, J2, E4, I3, A4, L4, K1, C3, J4, E4, H3, A4, B1, C3, A3, F2, G1, I2, J2, D4, E3, D4, F4, D2, H4, B1, I3, J4, E4, C3, E4, A2, C1, E3, D1, F2, C2, A4, H4, K3, E1, G4, J1, C1, E4, J3, C2, K4, E1, D4, F1, L3, K4, I4, D2, C1, B4, E1, J1, D1, C1, A1, J1, A1, B2, D4, C1, B2, A2, G2, H3, E1, K1, L1, I2, L3, J4, E4, H4, L2, G1, J2, E1, D3, I4, L2, B4, L2, C4, B3, J3, L4, E2, G2, J3, D1, C1, E3, H2, L4, F4, D4, E4, H4, L1, E3, C4, I4, J1, L4, D1, A1, B2, F2, E4, F1, H3, J3, K1, H1, L1, J1, L4, D1, A1, B2, F2, B4, C4, E4, K4, I4, E3, F1, H2, L4, F4, D4, I2, L3, H3, J3, E4, A3, K4, B3, L3, B3, K2, J4, A1],
This is a "nothing up my sleeve" scramble generated by seeding RC4 with the text "Multi-Dodecahedron". You can see the source to the program here.
I then solved the multi-dodecahedron in phases, switching between applets as needed: Code: Select all /* Super-Megaminx */
[B, F, B'2, A, D'2, E', D, F2, A, F'2, A', H', I'2, J, E'2, J, E2, L2, H, C, G', C2, G2, H2, C, H, C', L'2, J'2, F, J, F', L', H, G', D, G, D', K', J'2, I', F', I', F, G', K', D', K', D, K, G'2, B', H, B, H, C, H', C', I', E', J, E, J, F, J', F', J', I, L'2, G, C', G, C, G, D, G', D', G', E, K', E', K', D', K, D, J'2, I2, F', I, F, I, B, I', B', H', L, I2, G2, L'2, I', J, I, L, I'2, L2, I'2, L'2, I2, L'2, J, L2, B', I2, L', I'2, B, G', L, F, I'2, F', H', I', L, I, L'2, F, L, I2, F', H2, L', H'2, L', I, B, H'2, L, H2, B', I', K', L'2, G', C', H2, L', H'2, C, G, L2, G, L2, G'2, K2, G', L', G'2, L, G2, K', D', G2, L', G'2, D, K, L2, H, C, G'2, L, G2, C', H', G, L', G', L2, K, L', K'2, J'2, L2, J', E', K2, L', K'2, E, J, G, L', G', K, J, L', J', K', L, G, D, K'2, L, K2, D', G', J'2, L'2, J', L, J2, K, J, L', J', K', L2, I', F', J2, L', J'2, F, I, L2, K, E, J'2, E', K', L, J, I, L', I', J', L, K, E, L, J2, E', K', J', L', J, H', L', H, L, H', L', H, G', L', G, L', K', L'2, K, L, K', L', K, L, I', L'2, I, L, I', L'2, I, L, I', L'2, I, L, I', L', I, L', J', L, J, L, I, L', I', L', K, L', K', L', G', L, G, L', H', L, H, L, G, L', G', L', I', L, I, L, H, L', H', L, J, L', J', L', K', L, K, G, L, K, L', K', L, K, L', K', G', K, L, K', L, K, L'2, K', G, D', G', K', D', K, L, K', D, K, G, D, G', L'],
/* Pyraminx Crystal Edges */
[A, B, D', B', D, A, B2, D', B'2, D, A'2, I', C', I, C, A2, C', F, C, F', A'2, J, D, J', D', A2, D, F', D', F, A, F, C', F', C, A2, G, I', G', I, B', I, C', I', C, B, J', H, J, H', L2, B, H', F, H, F', B', L'2, F, I', E, I, E', F', G', J, G, J', D', G, E', G', E, D, J2, H'2, J'2, H, F, H, F', J, K', H, K, H', J', K', C, K, C', G2, B, G'2, B', L2, I', E, I, E', L'2, K'2, G, J', G', J, K2, G, L'2, C, L'2, C', L', G', H, D', H', D, G', K, I', K', I, G, K', H, K, H', L'2, K, F', K', F, L2, I, J, H', J', H, I', L', G, E', G', E, L2, I, C', I', C, L', H, I', K, I, K', H'2, I, G', I', G, H, K, G, J', G', J, K', G, J', G', J2, I', K, I, K', J', H, K', H', K, J', K, I', K', I, J, G, J', G', J, I', J, H', J', H, I, K, I', K', I, J'2, A', J2, G2, A', G'2, L', G2, A, G'2, J'2, A, J2, L],
/* Position Starminx Centers */
[H', G2, F', C, F, C', H, C, F', C', F, H', G'2, H, L, J', B, J, B', H, B, J', B', J, H', L', G', D', J, D, J', L, J, D', J', D, L', G, L2, K, H', D, H, D', K', D, H', D', H, L2, G, I', C, I, C', G', C, I', C', I, L, K, E, A', I, A, I', J, I, A', I', A, J', E', K'],
/* Orient Starminx Centers */
[C', E, C, E', K, G', K', E, C', E', C, K, G, K', A', J, A, J', K, D'2, K', J, A', J', A, K, D2, K', I, F', I', A', H, A, H', I, F, I', H, A', H', A, D', H, D, H', B, A'2, B', H, D', H', D, B, A2, B', H, C', H', D', L, D, L', H, C, H', L, D', L', D, I', K, I, K', E, F', E', K, I', K', I, E, F, E', F, B'2, F', H', J, H, J', F, B2, F', J, H', J', H],
/* Position Starminx Points */
[C2, F'2, C2, F2, C, J', I'2, C'2, I2, C', J, C'2, F', C2, F2, C, J', I'2, C'2, I2, C', J, F', D', B'2, F'2, C2, F2, C, J', I'2, C'2, I2, C', J, B2, D, J'2, A2, J2, A, L', I'2, A'2, I2, A', L, D', C2, I', D, H'2, D2, H2, I, D', B'2, D'2, B2, C'2, D2, F, A2, D'2, B2, D2, B, K', E'2, B'2, E2, B', K, A'2, F', D'2, E2, I', D, F'2, D2, F2, I, D', J'2, D'2, J2, E'2, D, C2, A2, J', C, F'2, C2, F2, J, C', E'2, C'2, E2, A'2, C'2, H'2, J2, H2, J, C', B'2, J'2, B2, J', C, E, B'2, E2, B2, E, H', C'2, E'2, C2, E', H, E, D2, F', G, A'2, G2, A2, F, G', E'2, G'2, E2, D'2, E'2, H', A'2, B', G', F, C'2, F2, C2, G, F', H'2, F'2, H2, B, A2, C'2, K2, C2, K, B', H'2, K'2, H2, K', B, H, G'2, D'2, L2, D2, L, A', C'2, L'2, C2, L', A, G2, H'2, L', A, H'2, A2, H2, L, A', I'2, A'2, I2, H2, I'2, B'2, L2, B2, L, A', F'2, L'2, F2, L', A, I2, F2, B'2, J2, B2, J, C', A'2, J'2, A2, J', C, F'2, I', B', K, I'2, K2, I2, B, K', H'2, K'2, H2, I, A2, G, J'2, G2, J2, G, F', E'2, G'2, E2, G', F, G', A'2, K, B', K, H'2, K2, H2, B, K', C'2, K'2, C2, K', L, K', B, L'2, B2, L2, K, B', J'2, B'2, J2, L', K, L', K', B, L'2, B2, L2, K, B', J'2, B'2, J2, L, K', G', K', L', K', B, L'2, B2, L2, K, B', J'2, B'2, J2, L, K, G, J2, L', I', J'2, B2, J2, B, K', L'2, B'2, L2, B', K, I, L, J'2, C'2, A'2, B', K, A'2, K2, A2, B, K', F'2, K'2, F2, A2, C2, A2, F'2, K2, F2, K, B', A'2, K'2, A2, K', B, A'2, C', L', C, I', D, J'2, D2, J2, I, D', L'2, D'2, L2, C', L, C, F2, B'2, D', I, A'2, I2, A2, D, I', C'2, I'2, C2, B2, F'2, L', C', L, D', I, A'2, I2, A2, D, I', C'2, I'2, C2, L', C, L, D, B', D', E'2, C'2, E2, C2, E, H', G'2, E'2, G2, E', H, E2, D, B, D2, H2, D2, H2, D'2, H'2, D'2, B2, D2, B, K', E'2, B'2, E2, B', K, H2, D2, H'2, D'2, H'2, D2, G2, I, G'2, K', J'2, G2, J2, G, F', E'2, G'2, E2, G', F, K, G2, I', G'2, L2, B, J', L'2, J2, E, F'2, L2, F2, L, A', E'2, L'2, E2, L', A, E', J'2, L2, J, B', L'2],
/* Pentultimate corners */
[D, L, K, G, K', G', L', B2, L, G, K, G', K', L', B'2, D', I, L', I'2, L, K, G, K', G', L', B2, L, G, K, G', K', L', B'2, I2, L, I', K'2, G, D, C, D', C', G', I2, G, C, D, C', D', G', I'2, K2, H', G'2, H, C, B, C', B', H', J2, H, B, C, B', C', H', J'2, G2, H, I2, K, E, D, E', D', K', H2, K, D, E, D', E', K', H'2, I'2, L', E, F, A, F', A', E', G2, E, A, F, A', F', E', G'2, D, E, A, E', A', D', H2, D, A, E, A', E', D', H'2, L, B', H, C, D, A, D', A', C', I2, C, A, D, A', D', C', I'2, H', B, I, B, C, A, C', A', B', J2, B, A, C, A', C', B', J'2, I', E, K, D, A, C, A', C', D', L2, D, C, A, C', A', D', L'2, K', E', H', K, E, K', F, A, E, A', E', F', L2, F, E, A, E', A', F', L'2, K, E', K', H, B, A', B, A, F, A', F', B', L2, B, F, A, F', A', B', L'2, A, B', I'2, A', E, A, D, A', D', E', L2, E, D, A, D', A', E', L'2, A, I2, H, G2, C, A, B, A', B', C', L2, C, B, A, B', A', C', L'2, G'2, H', C2, L', J'2, F, J, I, J', I', F', C2, F, I, J, I', J', F', C'2, J2, L, C'2, G2, I'2, G'2, D2, L, B, I, H, I', H', B', D2, B, H, I, H', I', B', D'2, L', D'2, G2, I2, G'2, J'2, C2, F, J, I, J', I', F', C'2, F, I, J, I', J', F', H, B', H, F, J, I, J', I', F', C2, F, I, J, I', J', F', C'2, H', B, H', J2]
You can paste the scramble and then this solution into any of Gelatinbrain's 1.1.1 - 1.1.7b applets and verify that it solves that puzzle.
Note that this solution uses only face-turns and no slice turns. The reason I did this is that if you combined this virtual multi-dodecahedron with something like a Gigaminx (or 1.1.8 or Master Pyraminx Crystal, 1.1.19, or anything that can be reduced to a Megaminx) then if you reduced that puzzle to a Megaminx using a combination of slice moves and face moves, you could solve the rest of the multi-dodecahedron using only face turns.
I made no effort to solve efficiently and not using slice moves hurt my move count (1523) even more. With slice moves Julian could easily solve the multi-dodecahedron in 900 moves or less.
Also note that I solved the orientation of the Starminx/Pentultimate centers.
Finally, this isn't the "hardest" multi-dodecahedron possible because there are 5 indistinguishable Starminx points per face. I didn't perfectly restore all of the points even though you can't tell on any of the 1.1.x applets. If you convert the scramble and solve syntax to the Icosahedron duels such as 2.2.3 you can see that the Starminx points aren't perfectly solved. If Gelatinbrain adds an alternate coloring version of the Starminx that makes each point unique (such as the coloring on 1.1.35c) I will fix this solution to perfectly solve them.
Thanks for the great idea Carl, this was fun  .
_________________
Twisty Renderer -- Jaap's Spheres with POV-Ray
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schuma
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Post subject: Re: Multidodecahedron
Post
Posted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 3:02 am
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Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2009 5:06 pm
Website: http://nan.ma
Location: Berkeley, CA, USA
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bmenrigh wrote:
I then solved the multi-dodecahedron in phases, switching between applets as needed:
Why didn't I think of copy & paste between different puzzles? It's a brilliant way to make use of the existing programs. This method brings a whole new dimension of challenges, that is, for a given scrambling, find a solution that solves several puzzles at the same time!
One should notice that the discussion in this thread before I revived it was before December 2009. Gelatinbrain's applet started to display the list of moves in January 2010. So when Julian and Carl discussed, they couldn't copy and paste the past moves.
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Check out some virtual puzzles I created at http://nan.ma
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GuiltyBystander
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Post subject: Re: Multidodecahedron
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Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 8:54 pm
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Joined: Wed May 13, 2009 4:58 pm
Location: Vancouver, Washington
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@bmenrigh
Wow, that's awesome. Gz on the achievement. I hope something like this can be put into GelatinBrain so that more people can try it easily.
Looks like there's a few puzzles missing before you can try to conquer the Edge-Turning Multidodecahedron. Julian has already put a lot of notes in that thread on how to solve it.
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Real name: Landon Kryger
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Brandon Enright
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Post subject: Re: Multidodecahedron
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Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 11:03 pm
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Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2009 8:54 pm
Website: http://www.brandonenright.net
Location: Bay Area, California
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GuiltyBystander wrote:@bmenrigh
Wow, that's awesome. Gz on the achievement. I hope something like this can be put into GelatinBrain so that more people can try it easily.
Honestly the only thing exceptional about solving this great puzzle is how fun it was, not how difficult or amazing. If you think about the puzzle as Carl has presented it, with puzzles within puzzles, then it seems very hard. Solving-wise, you can think of the puzzle as having all of the pieces right at the surface of some large puzzle. If you can solve the Pentultimate or the Pentultimate + Starminx hybrid (1.1.6) then you solution should automatically fit right into this large puzzle.
That mostly holds true for all of the different twisty puzzles out there. For example, a Starminx contains Pyraminx Crystal edges so you have to be able to solve "both at the same time". The same is true for the edge cubes containing a Helicopter cube and the edge Dodecahedrons containing the more shallow cut versions. I generally solve shallow cut to deeper cut. Each additional cut depth that you solve has to preserve the already solved more shallow cut pieces. This extends naturally in the Multi-Dodecahedron just as I think it extends naturally in the Edge-Turning-Multi-Dodecahedron.
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Twisty Renderer -- Jaap's Spheres with POV-Ray
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wwwmwww
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Post subject: Re: Multidodecahedron
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Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2010 10:42 am
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Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 12:09 pm
Website: http://www.wwwmwww.com/
Location: Queen Creek, AZ
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bmenrigh wrote:GuiltyBystander wrote:@bmenrigh
Wow, that's awesome. Gz on the achievement. I hope something like this can be put into GelatinBrain so that more people can try it easily.
Honestly the only thing exceptional about solving this great puzzle is how fun it was, not how difficult or amazing.
WOW^2!!! I'm SO happy to see people playing with the Multidodecahedron. I too would love to see it in a form where it was easier to play with but if you have your heart set on it its nice to see there are already ways that can be used to play with these puzzles and I'm so glad to hear how much fun you had. Congrats again and with luck GelatinBrain or other sites will continue to find easier ways to enable people to play with these puzzles.
Thanks for sharing your experience and I hope others follow,
Carl
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