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 Post subject: initial prototype pics
PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2007 4:25 pm 
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Well, right now, my project has started in many fronts and things move, but they move very very slow. Do not be surprised if all those planned projects will be completed by next year LOL

As you probably know, I am trying to patent a new generation of Rubik's Magic alike puzzles which will be named "panta-flips". From those, the most distinct ones should be the tria-flips (made of triangular tiles) and the penta-flips (made of pentagonal tiles). There might be more pantaflips (octaflips, or combination of shapes), but right now I am only focusing on the triaflips and he pentaflips.

The patent for the stringing method should be finished (hopefully) before the IPP27 starts, but I will definitely bring there some test tiles for demo purposes.

And if all go smoothly and according to plan, there will be some new folding puzzles that would resemble a tetrahedron, octahedron, dodecahedron, and (why not?) an icosahedron.

Here is a teasing photo. Those prototypes have already costed me a fortune LOL

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Please do not ask any questions regarding the stringing technique, as I will not answer them right now. I can only say that I use some fishing knots (which are very reliable and I used to make at the small island when I was a kid) to make the strings. That way, I can make strings of any length I need, and without even using any metal connectors. ;)

Just writing the details down for the patent and making the figures etc is already super tedious and has in fact considerably delayed the writing of my PhD Thesis! :?

The future though, looks very interesting. :)



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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2007 4:29 pm 
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These prototypes look great! I hope the manufacturing takes off. I would buy one, as soon as I get a regular magic....

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2007 4:33 pm 
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Mr magic ¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡

looks great :wink:

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2007 4:39 pm 
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Nice work!
Quote:
Just writing the details down for the patent and making the figures etc is already super tedious and has in fact considerably delayed the writing of my PhD Thesis!

Ah the ol' delayed PhD thesis bit... Mine's now been "delayed" since about 2004 ;)

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2007 4:44 pm 
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They look amazing Pantazis!!

I really wish you the best with these and hopefully everything will run smooth.

If all goes well how do you plan to sell them? I would really like to purchase them when you get all set up! ;)


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2007 4:52 pm 
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Pantazis, these look great! Are these prototypes laser cut? What technique is used to make these recessions for strings in the tiles? As for making your own strings, I love knots! Though I can't be considered proficient as it's a hobby that I can't spend much time with. I use two books on this subject: "The ultimate encyclopedia of knots and ropework" and the huge classic book "The Ashley book of knots". I really don't think that letting us know which knots you use is a huge secret! 8-) (Yes, I am interested!) 8-)

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2007 5:15 pm 
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Thanks for the nice words guys! :)


Regarding your questions/comments:


the.drizzle wrote:
Ah the ol' delayed PhD thesis bit... Mine's now been "delayed" since about 2004 ;)


LOL I know what you mean. The deadline for mine is end of this year. So delaying any more would be catastrophic!


reeeech wrote:
If all goes well how do you plan to sell them?


I plan to do a mass order, so the answer is yes. I do not have to wait until the patent is accepted. That might take years. But legally, I can start producing right after I file the patent (which *must* be done before the IPP).



Aleksey wrote:
Pantazis, these look great! Are these prototypes laser cut? What technique is used to make these recessions for strings in the tiles? As for making your own strings, I love knots! Though I can't be considered proficient as it's a hobby that I can't spend much time with. I use two books on this subject: "The ultimate encyclopedia of knots and ropework" and the huge classic book "The Ashley book of knots". I really don't think that letting us know which knots you use is a huge secret! 8-) (Yes, I am interested!) 8-)


The prototypes are laser cut and were done with a help of a good friend (she works at a trophy shop). I am not sure of how she did the recessions, but we are into talks to make even better prototypes (there are still some imperfections). The octagonal ones though (on the top-right), are just some normal square tiles with trimmed corners.

The knot I use is very simple. I have no books about knots, so I don't know all the different types. But I do know one of them very well (the one I use for the pantaflips). I will try and see if this knot I use is listed somewhere with a specific name and then I can tell you which one it is LOL. But it is very stable and reliable, *that* I can tell.

:)



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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2007 5:42 pm 
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I never had a big interest in Magics, but I do admire your sense of innovation. I will definitely buy some when they're available.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2007 5:59 pm 
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kastellorizo wrote:
The octagonal ones though (on the top-right), are just some normal square tiles with trimmed corners.

Now THAT is intuition!

Great job Panda! I will be buying them, you can count on that.

I have an income now :)

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2007 6:19 pm 
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Well, that settles the question as to whether pentagonal tiles are possible. We had a thread discussing that a while a back, where I figured that the way you're doing it is possible, and Jaap was arguing no. Do you think it's possible to have pentagonal tiles where the grooves go in a traditional five-pointed star pattern?


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2007 7:33 pm 
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Puzzles of the future!
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2007 9:08 pm 
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Water knot? Carrick bend? Zeppelin bend?

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 1:13 am 
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The patent is very expensive and it is almost impossible to cancel out the costs without some serious marketing, so I am mostly doing it for the glory LOL
But if there is an extra side effect with financial profit, it will be more than welcome. 8-)

One thing is for sure, this forum and its people has been a huge inspiration!!! :)




Pemboo wrote:
kastellorizo wrote:
The octagonal ones though (on the top-right), are just some normal square tiles with trimmed corners.

Now THAT is intuition!


Unfortunately, the quality of the octagonal tiles is not very good LOL
I must use better trimming methods. But right now I am not focusing on them, as they do not really have to use my own stringing technique, but a normal extension of the Rubik's technique.



Bram wrote:
Well, that settles the question as to whether pentagonal tiles are possible. We had a thread discussing that a while a back, where I figured that the way you're doing it is possible, and Jaap was arguing no. Do you think it's possible to have pentagonal tiles where the grooves go in a traditional five-pointed star pattern?


Yes, they are all possible. But in fact, Jaap made an extremely valid comment about an issue which I encountered while applying my technique. But please forgive me, I can't say anything more about this LOL (all the pros and cons will be revealed after the patent is filed).

Regarding the five star pointed pattern, the answer using my techinque is no, as it will be very unstable. Unless someone applies some "parallel technique" (i.e. finds a way to string along the sides...!).
Or it could be possible if we "rotate" my technique, something I haven't tried yet (I have only done some "shifting").

But making some cuts on the corners can be interesting.



Kyle the chimney sweeper wrote:
Puzzles of the future!
http://www.nicejobpantazis.com


I just went forward three years with my time machine, and that website works! :P



qqwref wrote:
Water knot? Carrick bend? Zeppelin bend?


To answer Aleksey's and your question regarding the knot I use, I made a fast check fast on the net and the name seems to be "uni knot":
http://www.fish4fun.com/Joining2Lines.htm

It is a very common knot in fishing (probably the most common?) and everytime I make one, I never count the turns, so this can be varied LOL
What I like about this knot is that the more tight you make it, the more unlikely it is to break at the connecting point!

:)



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 9:26 am 
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Thanks, Pantazis! It's funny, I used this knot to tie up a hook when i was a child. 8-)

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 12:53 pm 
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I thought that was the knot! I still use this to attach lures to my line today! It is the most used fishing knot in existence. Great use of a practical skill.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 1:36 pm 
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I guess the real trick here is how to make the loop of exact size using this method. Pantazis, can you elaborate on that?

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 1:53 pm 
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Wow! Nice Pantazis. I've wanted to see the pictures of oyur triangle magics, and they look great. I thought you were only making triangles.. I guess there were other shapes too. They all look cool. When they are available for purchase I might get one, maybe some. Im kinda tight on money right now :?

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 3:05 pm 
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Needless to say I am quite upset at you kastellorizo. I had hoped to figure out the stringing problem and get some prototypes of the pentangle magics while you worked on your triangles. Apparently you where working on them in secret.

Seriously though, absolutely amazing work. If anyone could master new magics it would be you. I am very interested to hear how you solved the pentangle stringing problems that jaap pointed out when we were first talking about this months back. I had yet to figure out a way to test my ideas, I needed a table saw and a router table in my small 1 bedroom apartment :cry: . As a matter of point (and its interesting you mentioned it) I was working with the idea of having a grove on the side.

I can't wait to see more on these puzzles. I'm sure everyone here would love to see video of these puzzles in action. I personally look forward to seeing more about these. Congrats!

-Adam-

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 4:08 pm 
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Aleksey wrote:
I guess the real trick here is how to make the loop of exact size using this method. Pantazis, can you elaborate on that?


It's definitely not easy to make them the right size *most* of the time. But eventually I get there and make a few strings of appropriate size. A lot of practice (and a lot of wasted strings) can make someone to be accurate enough. ;)



wronginthehead wrote:
Needless to say I am quite upset at you kastellorizo. I had hoped to figure out the stringing problem and get some prototypes of the pentangle magics while you worked on your triangles. Apparently you where working on them in secret.

Seriously though, absolutely amazing work. If anyone could master new magics it would be you. I am very interested to hear how you solved the pentangle stringing problems that jaap pointed out when we were first talking about this months back. I had yet to figure out a way to test my ideas, I needed a table saw and a router table in my small 1 bedroom apartment :cry: . As a matter of point (and its interesting you mentioned it) I was working with the idea of having a grove on the side.

I can't wait to see more on these puzzles. I'm sure everyone here would love to see video of these puzzles in action. I personally look forward to seeing more about these. Congrats!



Thanks Adam, you have definitely helped my imagination by bringing the talk about magics last time, it definitely made me more curious than I was before. The technique I discovered can work for all polygon tiles with odd number of tiles, so it was something that was easy to do in parallel for both triangles and pentagons. It was also cheaper to order the test tile lot together rather than one at a time.

The stringing technique has a lot of difficulties to bypass, even when explaining it. Just connecting the strings with the tiles is a challenge of its own, and unfortunately, it is much more difficult to do when compared to doing it with the normal Rubik's tiles. I could safely say that the stringing part can easily frustrate me (as it has done already many times!). Even if this project comes to some end, I will still chase some other simpler stringing ways, which I am pretty sure must exist.

And I must clarify that if I could name a person that had inspired me most to do this, I would say it was you. :)



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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 4:19 am 
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Just bumping my own topic to give out some updates.


I had a very busy schedule already, and a couple of weeks ago, my supervisor had a mild heart attack. He is ok now, but he won't be teaching any more this semester. And since I was the one making the interactive presentations for this unit and preparing almost all the tutorials, it automatically meant that I am also taking over his lectures (in front of 300-350 students...!).

The head of the department was happy I can take over as there were no other alternative solutions and I agree that as an experience and something to add to my resume is great. But it came at the wrong time as I am also struggling to send two quality papers before middle September, and write down my PhD Thesis.

*************************


As a result, I had no chance to spend on making more puzzles (as I had planned), and the ones that I will bring at the IPP will be prototypes (i.e. if someone is interested, he/she must wait for me to build it after a few months). I did however prepared three Magic Octopus from long time ago, and they will be offered for trade.

Highlighted puzzles that I will bring:
Memory Cube, Tower of Mahjong, Magic Strip, Sphericube, and Pantazis' Color Box.
(because of design difficulty factor, no duplicates have ever been made for those puzzles, but I am sure people will love to hold and try them out LOL)


Regarding the tria-flip (folding triangle puzzle), sadly, I have not managed to create a complete puzzle out of it yet. But I will bring my prototype so that people can see how stable it is, and how the sides rotate around it. But I am pretty much motivated to send a complete tria-flip puzzle in next year's puzzle competition.

Flying tomorrow morning to Brisbane, wish you all to have a great weekend. I know I will certainly have a memorable one!!!

;)


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 9:22 am 
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Those prototypes look fantastic. How much would you sell those for once youv'e completed them.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 12:11 pm 
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TheAtarian1 wrote:
Those prototypes look fantastic.


Thanks! :)


TheAtarian1 wrote:
How much would you sell those for once youv'e completed them.


Now that is a really good question. The form of the prototypes has actually changed in practice and in theory a few times to accomodate shape changes which are crucial for it to work as good as possible. It is only when someone goes through such a process that makes him realise and appreciate the effort put in new ideas.

If I was asked to estimate a price for a tetrahedron (i.e. four double triangles) with respect to the prices I got the tiles plus the effort*, plus strings, paper tiles etc, then I would say around US$70 each.

And the tetrahedron won't be a challenging puzzle, but it will be an interesting demonstration of a new puzzle. Now an octahedron, *that* could be challenging! ;)

But right now, price and difficulty estimations are purely based on theory, not practice!



Pantazis



PS. The stringing technique is very different from the Rubik's magics, and much much much more difficult. And although I have achieved successful continuous stringing for more than two double triangles, the entire stringing effort is a nightmare. I am sure I will be able to find a faster stringing way, but I need to put some time on it.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 4:07 pm 
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kastellorizo wrote:
But I will bring my prototype so that people can see how stable it is, and how the sides rotate around it. But I am pretty much motivated to send a complete tria-flip puzzle in next year's puzzle competition.

Considering that you want to enter this puzzle in the next year's competition, are you sure it's safe to show the prorotype around now? Aside from someone's getting a good vibe of the idea and implementation, will the puzzle still be considered "new" for the competition next year? I don't know the answers, so I'm just asking. Take care and good luck! 8-)

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Last edited by Aleksey on Thu Aug 09, 2007 2:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 4:09 pm 
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Is there anyway that you can post a video of the puzzle. That would be really helpful. Thanks!

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 4:35 pm 
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Puzzles invented within 2 years of entry are eligible for IPP competition.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 1:48 am 
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Aleksey wrote:
Considering that you want to enter this puzzle in the next year's competition, are you sure it's safe to show the prorotype around now? Aside from someone's getting a good vibe of the idea and implementation, will the puzzle still be considered "new" for the competition next year? I don't know the answers, so I'm just asking. Take care and good luck! 8-)


Regarding its looks, it is simple. But the stringing, is a completely different story. I am sure many people, even the smartest ones, will stumble on this if they try to do it. You need to understand *both* theoretical parts and practical parts. The structure and the way it "expands" would require an entire team to do this fast enough. And I am pretty confident that before they do it, I would be many steps ahead already (as I am now!). I have shown the puzzle mechanism to many people at the IPP and they loved it (as well as many of my square tile magics).

To put it in another way. The stringing part *is* possible, but it is a nightmare. :P

Regarding other aspects of the puzzle, I had a nice chat with Oskar (van Deventer) regarding patents etc. Meanwhile, I am in talks with one of my best friends (he is in Singapore and has MBA in marketing). Soon we shall see...

And a puzzle based on the mechanism is planned to compete in a future puzzle competition. 8-)




bluepen555 wrote:
Is there anyway that you can post a video of the puzzle. That would be really helpful. Thanks!


If the puzzle becomes ready, then yes, I will surely do it.




io wrote:
Puzzles invented within 2 years of entry are eligible for IPP competition.


Yes, that is correcct. :)



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