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 Post subject: Website
PostPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2002 10:21 am 
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Anyone remember the website that went around 6 weeks or so ago that had a picture of what appeared to be a Master Pyraminx sitting on a shelf? I tried looking back in the archieves but I couldn't find it quickly.


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 Post subject: Master megaminx
PostPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2002 10:23 am 
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When is someone going to make a master (probably professor is a better name for it) megaminx??

tyler? chris?


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 Post subject: Frontal View
PostPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2002 11:59 am 
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Its almost 1AM and i cant go to bed. so i drew this
Image


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 Post subject: Thats it!
PostPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2002 2:56 pm 
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Thats it exactly. I would love it if someone made one of these. And because I mantioned it first they could even give me a free one. :wink: Tyler, do you think that the same steps for turning a 3x3x3 cube into a 5x5x5 cube could be used to produce a mechanism for this?

This reminds me. A long long time ago I posted a message about an idea I had for a 'junior dogic'. It seems that there is a lot more people here now who do their own puzzles. Maybe someone here would be able to make one? Ill try and find the message again, but if anyone comes across it, please remind us all of where it was. I think someone drew a very nice picture of it. It would be satisfying for me to just see someone make one. But as for the masterminx (thats what i call the 5th order megaminx) if it came into being, i think i would do everything in my power to obtain one...


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 Post subject: Exactly the same!
PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2002 2:25 am 
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I would start with a megaminx.
Round the WHOLE thing with a sander ( to create a spherical megaminx, as the 5x5 has a sphereical 3x3 center)
Then, Extend all the original parts. And fit the other pieces in between.

Sounds like something nice to build... But the clay model would be a real pain to make...

How Many pieces are in the OUTSIDE of this puzzle?


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 Post subject: Number of pieces.
PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2002 3:06 am 
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Each face has 11 "centre pieces". So, 11x12=132 of these.

Every adjacent face shares 3 "edge pieces". There are 5 lots of these pieces per face. So 12x5x3/2 = 90 of these.

Every 3 faces which meet at a corner share a corner piece. There are 5 of these per face. So 12x5/3=20 of these.

Thus there are 132 + 90 + 20 = 242 pieces altogether. (At least to my knowledge). In fact the number of positions would be

20! x 3^19 x 30! x 2^29 x 60! x 60! x 60!

divided by

2^3 x (5!)^24.

This is about 3.65 x 10^263. (ie 365...with264 digits. If the stickers/tiles are grained, this answer must be multiplied by a further 5^12 for the visible centre rotations. This makes for a total of around 8.91 x 10^271. Amazing hey! Makes the dogic seem like a little baby. The amzing thing I think is that it wouldnt be very hard to solve if you know how to do a 5x5x5 cube.

Can someone check the answers? Jaap?


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 Post subject: Re: Number of pieces.
PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2002 3:30 am 
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My guess is that the center pieces would be very easy. Along with the corners. I think the only hard part would be the "Wings" as they are called on the 5x5.

Would this puzzle be a true dodecahedron? I havent taken the time to draw a 3d plan yet.


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 Post subject: Seriously considering this...
PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2002 7:10 am 
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I am seriously considering this, but for a long time from now. The problem is NOT design, but actually making 100+ pieces.


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 Post subject: Website address
PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2002 8:14 am 
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Here it is again, Jerry:

http://nauka.relis.ru/cgi/nauka.pl?53+0102+53102104+HTML


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 Post subject: Language
PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2002 8:18 am 
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Any idea what language the website is in?


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 Post subject: I was thinking ...
PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2002 8:48 am 
First off I assume I'm the chris you were talking about, becuase I don't think the other chris is planing on makeing stuff, if you meant the other sorry.

I was thinking more along the lines of makeing pyraminx magic polyhedra in various diffrent orders. I could try it, but at the moment I have more projects then I can count and I don't even have materials to start working on them yet. (They should arrive this week.) So if I do try don't expect quick results.

My big thought at the moment is a 26 sided cubic puzzle, I plan to work my way up, starting with a simple one with 26 planes to more complex versions of it that have ungodly amounts of planes and pieces.

Thats what I'm going for at the moment, right after higher order cubes and cubiods. So as you can see a big Megaminx isn't at the top of my list.


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 Post subject: Me?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2002 10:23 am 
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I dont know.... how would i do it?
I guess it could be based on the 5x5 mechanism.
someone draw me 1 face, and ill draw u a mechanism


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 Post subject: Russian
PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2002 8:39 pm 
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Its Russian
hehe i take it as a third language
the title says fantastic dodecahedrons (i think)
the first sentence says "read the journal written by elena jyookofa "
thats all i can make out... i dont know that much yet, i am in russian 1. 2 more years...


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 Post subject: Yes
PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2002 3:30 am 
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You could make something that would look just like it from a regular megaminx. Just make 12 cuts parallel to the 12 cuts already in the megaminx. (half way between the face surfaces and the existing cuts.) It might be difficult to do this in a way so as to make all the little pieces in similar sized shapes...

if you can solve the centre pieces easily enough, you could solve the wing pieces just as easily. my 5x5x5 method would easily adapt, and i dont think tthere is anything especially profound about my method...


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 Post subject: Junior Dogic
PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2002 4:08 am 
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I found the link. Here it is.

[url=message6432.htm]http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/message?forumid=43402&messageid=996396632[/url]

On second thoughts, Jason drew a nice picture of it. Just have a look here.

[url=message6434.htm]http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/message?forumid=43402&messageid=996461759[/url]

Most of the messages after it were speculation as to how it could be possible. An idea of modifying a 4x4x4 cube looked like the most likely way around it. I think there is a wealth of creativity here that could perhaps make this puzzle a reality.


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 Post subject: Professor Megaminx?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2002 4:55 am 
Would't that be a Professor Megaminx? Which brings up the question what about a Master (revenge) or a pocket megaminix? But I think it might turn out to be exactly the same thing.


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 Post subject: Larger octahedral dogics
PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2002 5:51 am 
useing similar methods you could create larger versions, the perposed version is esentialy an extended 2x2x2 (the extentions are functional). So you could probably make similar modifcations to a 3x3x3, maybe a 4x4x4 and a 5x5x5.

If we start to produce them maybe it will become the next big puzzle. Maybe it would be so successfull that everyone involved could get a silver rubiks cube.

Ok so thats too much, but its not imposible for most current puzzles and concepts to have multiple orders. Megaminx, pyraminx, octahedron (face turning), this, pyraminx magic polyhedra, and probably other things that I'm not thinking of, could be done in more orders than currently exist.

Also i'm suprised that no one has made high order rubik's balls becuase they wouldn't have the problem with the corners.

Chris witham


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 Post subject: 4x4
PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2002 6:02 am 
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actually, the proposed junior dogic is based off of a 4x4x4.... just each side has been cut down


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 Post subject: Re: Professor Megaminx?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2002 6:08 am 
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Megaminx is an Order-3 Puzzle
therefore, it would be a professor megaminx (order-5),
but if i made one, it would be called masterminx.
A MEGAMINX REVENGE would be Order-4, which wouldnt really be a megaminx...


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 Post subject: order 4 megaminx would be complicated?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2002 7:01 am 
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Cant see how a 4th order megaminx would work. However, a, impossiball is a 2nd order megaminx, just like a 2x2x2 cube is a 2nd order cube...


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 Post subject: Same problem with higher order cubes
PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2002 7:10 am 
Even if you only have as many pieces as apear on the outside a 7x7x7 has 218, an 8x8x8 has 448. Its a lot of pieces to make.


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 Post subject: I'm not sure i follow
PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2002 8:37 am 
I know that an imposiball is dodecahedral, but is it really a 2nd order megaminx? I don't know what a 4th order megaminx would be like, the frist image I saw was basicly just a 5th order with the pieces shaped slightly difrent, but thats not what it is at all, so I have to think about it further. I hope others do as well.


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 Post subject: My First Project
PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2002 8:48 am 
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My first "project" will be the dupliation of Ton's 2x2x3 (after i get acquainted with the stuff). Before that, i may make some siamese parts, as a first try.
Ton's 2x2x3 will be an excellent model to work from


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 Post subject: ORDER-4 Megaminx pics
PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2002 8:49 am 
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Image
not to scale

the mechanism would be a 4x4x4 mechanism with lines "parallel" to each of the existing lines on the sphere ( i use the word parallel, because i dont know much about spherical geometry. only euclidian )
which would in turn, create another 6 points of "center rotation" as on the 4x4 (where centers meet)
I think then that would make it an order 4-minx internal... Now making the outer pieces is probably pretty simple.

Anyone agree on this mechanism? i thought of it pretty quick. I dont even know if the frontal view is correct...


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 Post subject: This is what it would have to be
PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2002 8:54 am 
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but it would probably be better on a sphere like the impossiball. not sure how well it would work. the impossiball feels terrible when you ture it. i can only imagine this would be worse... but well done tyler.


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 Post subject: Ball puzzles + Me
PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2002 8:56 am 
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I dont own any ball puzzles.
only a sphereical 3x3, and i want to make a cube-in-shpere and ball in the wall out of it, but i cant get the center caps off.

The ball puzzles always struck me as ugly, and if a puzzle is ugly, it leaves my shelf and goes to the magical land of ebay. Other ones go to ebay as well, but the ugly ones always go


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 Post subject: One More thing
PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2002 1:02 pm 
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After all this talk about megaminx, i should admit that i hate it :)
something about 6 colors annoys me. I may give it a second chance and get glue-on 12 color tiles...


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 Post subject: Contents
PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2002 8:39 pm 
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No Tyler,

I responded to you before: it's called 'Fantasies with dodecahedron' though mostly this article is about her hobby in creating shapes out of paper and nothing about the twisty ones.

Cheers
Vadim


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 Post subject: It is
PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2002 8:51 pm 
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A 2nd order cube is a normal cube without the edge pieces (just the corners).

An impossiball is a megaminx without the edge pieces, so its the same idea.

Tylers picture is exactly what i was talking about. It indicates what the face of a masterminx would look like. Seeing as a 4th order megaminx would be impossible, I figured since this would be the next harder one it should be a 'master'. A 4th order minx is impossible at least if you require the shape be a dodecahedron. however, an impossiball is a sphere so maybe a 4th order megaminx would be possible with a different shape...


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 Post subject: How does a dogic fit in?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2002 2:32 am 
a dogic is like a 2nd order impossiball (if impossiball is 1st) so what does it translate to dodecahedraly?


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 Post subject: I started thinking about that...
PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2002 2:38 am 
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Ive always thought that a dogic was a masterimpossiball of some kind. But when tyler put up his pic of the 4th order megaminx, i started wondering... On david byrdens site he has a puzzle in the shape of an icosahedron which is basically the impossiball. i was thinking maybe tylers order 4 megaminx could be put in the shape of an icosahedron, but the way the pieces are arranged would give a dogic. im not quite sure if this is the right thing though, because the dogic doesnt really have 'corner' pieces in the same way as a megaminx does. the dogic pieces which correspond to the megaminx corners are the inside triangles (the ones with 3 colours on them) but when you move 5 whole faces (large twist) all the pieces around the corners move too. however on a 5th order megaminx only the pieces in a top face move.

basically im not happy with the way this puzzle sits at the moment. in a 5th order, it is very clear - you can move a face and there are also 'slice' moves where you move a slice under a face. if we are to believe a dogic is a 4th order megaminx there is no satisfactory analogue of slice moves. (there are kind of obvious moves which could be called slice moves, but theyre not in the same way as a masterminx)


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 Post subject: maybe its like
PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2002 4:02 am 
Maybe its like the perposed octahdral "dogic" which moves like a cube but has no cubic counterpart, i.e. no cube could be exactly like that. So maybe even though it moves like a dodecahedron the dogic doesn't have a dodecahedral counterpart.


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 Post subject: Dogic / cube
PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2002 4:36 am 
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Take an impossiball. Now suppose that when it is in a fixed position, you could spin around the 5 little 'triangles' which make up a circle of colour. this is essentially what the dogic is. however, the icosahedron with more corners makes it much more convenient to turn.

Take a 2x2x2 cube. imagine now that in each face, you draw a circle, the centre of which is the point where all four pieces meet. Imagine that this circle actually is a cut, and that the pieces inside the circle can be cycled around. Then this is the same thing as the junior dogic. But having it in the shape of an octahedron would give it a better twistability.

I always imagined that a dogic was a masterimpossiball. so a junior dogic would be a masterminicube. this kind of hints at the fact that a dogic is in no way an order 4 megaminx. (because a junior dogic is not an order 4 cube).


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 Post subject: Relationship?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2002 5:51 am 
I see what your saying and think your completely right. I wasn't asking if they (4th order megaminx + dogic) were the same I was asking for the relationship between a dogic and a megaminx. If the analogy between junior dogic and dogic holds then it would mean that the tips are the like center peices of an order 4 megaminix and the three colored triangles are like the internal corners. I don't know if it does though.


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 Post subject: No
PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2002 6:01 am 
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No, the tips of the dogic rotate freely.
the megaminx order-4 centers wouldnt rotate unless the rest of that face was turned, as in the 4x4, 5x5,3x3, and megaminx.


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 Post subject: Works both ways
PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2002 6:02 am 
I think it works both ways, because a functional extended 2x2x2 is the centers of a 4x4x4 and the original 2x2x2 peices are the 8 'invisible cubes', so if you have a 4x4x4 that has those cubes cuting it down to the point that would be necissary would leave it exactly the same as building up a 2x2x2. I could be wrong though.


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 Post subject: Thats right
PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2002 6:12 am 
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Chris, i didnt think you meant order 4 megaminx = dogic, but mentioned it as an interesting thing. What tyler said goes. The relationship i can see is as follows.

From cube to junior dogic:

Take away edges = 2x2x2 cube.
allow the interiors of the remaining pieces (all corners) to rotate independent of the outer parts. = junior dogic.

From megaminx to dogic:

take away edges = impossiball.
follow same steps as above = dogic.


Heres an idea: master dogic. Instead of "only" having two slices from each vertex as in a normal dogic, have three. there would be a LOT of possible positions, but remarkably it wouldnt be much harder! it would just take longer to solve... tyler, would you like to design a mechanism?


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 Post subject: I'll do it
PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2002 6:29 am 
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I will give you a detailed text description, but i dont understand what you are asking.
I need to know:
how many sides
shapes
will it have rotating tips like regular dogic?
etc..


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 Post subject: Building it
PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2002 7:11 am 
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O yea,
i wouldnt consider building it btw.
hehe, 250+ on regular dogic doesnt tempt me to make a larger dogic.


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 Post subject: What I meant was
PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2002 7:32 am 
I wasn't saying that it was an order 4 megaminx, I was asking if the tips were like the centers on one. Becuase with the junior dogic, which is in many ways the same thing just for a cube rather then a dodecahedron, it the tips are the same as centers on a 4x4x4, so i'm asking if the dogic tips are the same as centers on an order 4 megaminx, if they are then they would still rotate freely becuase none of the edges or corners are present in a dogic.

The more I think about the more I think that the tips are essentialy the same as centers on an order 4 megaminx. This isn't physicly helpful but conceptualy it moves us one step closer to figuring out how to make one.


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 Post subject: they arent
PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2002 8:05 am 
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The centers on the order-4 minx wouldnt roatate freely. they would rotate with the face, Only. just as in every cube shaped puzzle, and in the regular megaminx.
the dogic tips rotate freely, without turning the whole face


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 Post subject: Gor for 12 colours
PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2002 1:02 pm 
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Do it! It looks soo nice.


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 Post subject: It might not be so bad
PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2002 6:28 pm 
Just because a dogic had so many piecese doesn't mean it had to, puzzles aren't always optimized. On the other hand even if there is a better way to make a normal dogic, this would have each face look like a pyrimix side and probably drive whoever tryed to make it nuts.

That being said i might try someday, but not for quite awhile, and if any one wants to buy it it will cost alot, first for the large number of pieces that had to be made, then for the assembely time, then for the pain and suffering.

I guess i get a kick out of trying the seemingly impossible.


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 Post subject: impossiball with 12 colors ?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2002 8:51 pm 
This was very enlightning and it will get me to pay more
respect for my impossiball from today on...

Has anybody ever see impossiballs with 12 colors instead
of only 6, to make it closer to the 12 colors megaminx?

Claude


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 Post subject: I don't think you understand
PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2002 1:10 am 
I guess I havn't been saying this well if you came at me with the same argument twice, and I thought that I had proved it didn't apply.

What I think is that the tips of a dogic are the same as the centers of an order 4 megaminix, only the centers. So another way of looking at it is that if you had an 4th order megaminx and took off all of the edges and corners (so now all that is left of the face is the centers) the centers would now act just like a dogics tips. This means that the they could be the same as the centers because they would be rotateing the entire face if it were there.

If you don't see what I'm saying ask and I'll try to say it in a diffrent way. If you come up with another think to prove me wrong, or think that your argument is still applicable then please say so. I'm not tryiing to prove that I'm right, I just want to fully understand the relastionship between a dogic and a megaminx.


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 Post subject: hmmm
PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2002 3:41 am 
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I may still be saying the same thing, in a differnt way. i dont know.

first, let me set some "constants"
Dogic "tips" rotate without the face.
4x4x4 centers only turn with the face.

i just thought of something. Are you saying that the dogic tips are layed out like the 4x4x4 centers?
if yes, then you are correct. they are laid out in almost the same way. they all meet in the center, and form a pentagon on the perimeter.

did i just say the same thing?


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 Post subject: Pretty much
PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2002 4:15 am 
Ok you basicly got it, I'm saying that they are layed out similar and i want to know if they are in fact the same in there relationship to each other, i.e. do they move exactly like an order 4 megaminx's centers? forget about in relationship to the rest of the puzzle or face because those pieces simply aren't there, I'm asking if this is like a centers only 4th order megaminx.


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 Post subject: Master Dogic
PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2002 6:57 am 
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I think what James is asking for is a puzzle built like the dogic, but with faces that look like the Magic Octahedron, which IMHO would be an absolute mare to put together. Then again, you ARE working on a 7x7x7 cube which is "mathematically impossible", so who knows? Maybe you can pull it off. :) L8r.


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 Post subject: Details
PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2002 7:06 am 
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Yeah. A dogic has faces which rotate, and then tips on the faces which also rotate. Then these tips themselves have tips that can rotate.


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 Post subject: Junior dogic and 4x4x4 cube
PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2002 8:05 am 
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Thats why you cant just make a junior dogic out of a 4x4x4 cube as was suggested in posts before (i think about page 15 or 16).


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