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 Post subject: Puzzle DESIGN subforum
PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 7:11 pm 
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In the past and now recently we have had a surplus of CAD models shown in various places that they do not belong. The do not belong in hints of ideas because they are obviously not hints. They do not belong in new puzzles because while they may be new concepts or ideas they are not yet physical puzzles. They do not belong in puzzle building in modding because they are not yet being built and are not being modded from any solid puzzle.

Obviously I think there can be exceptions in the puzzle building and modding section, but I think something should be done about the CAD posts.

This is something that can possibly solved with some new rules/moderation, or as I suggested a new subforum for puzzle design.

I for one would love to share other things than just new CAD designs, but also methods, tips, models, etc. that have been shared in various places all in the past.

Any other thoughts on this?


Also if this post itself is in the wrong position I apologize and ask if a moderator can move it/call attention to it. Thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: Puzzle DESIGN subforum
PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 7:19 pm 
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I have been thinking about an idea subforum, but I guess these two could make up one subforum. Although the building and modding subforum does specifically state that ideas are to be shared in it. I guess that could really be the place for E-Cubes Designer X.

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzle DESIGN subforum
PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 7:23 pm 
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I've always felt "Puzzle Building and Modding" is the right place for them. Why not just rename it to "Puzzle Design, Building, and Modding"?

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzle DESIGN subforum
PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 12:09 am 
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Brandon Enright wrote:
I've always felt "Puzzle Building and Modding" is the right place for them. Why not just rename it to "Puzzle Design, Building, and Modding"?

Exactly my thought. I wouldn't like a new subforum.
Although I suggest: "Puzzle Design and Modding"

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzle DESIGN subforum
PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 1:39 am 
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Good suggestions, we'll let Sandy and the staff think it over and let you know.

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzle DESIGN subforum
PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 5:04 pm 
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If we're going to make a dedicated CAD subforum, I think we should make an effort to clarify what sorts of posts are acceptable and unacceptable. Recently, I've seen a number of designers posting threads with pictures of in-progress CAD designs, and nothing else. Frankly, I don't see how these sort of posts contribute to the community whatsoever. It's essentially just showing off, unless it is explicitly stated that the design is open for others to draw inspiration from. What if someone else was working on a similar project? Are they supposed to just drop their work entirely? Moreover, it makes it more difficult for a designer working on a similar design to prove that said design is original work. There are of course exceptions to this, such as if someone makes a post asking for feedback, or makes the design free for others to use. Other than these cases, I can't see how these types of posts are anything but a quick way to claim the rights to a puzzle without putting in the effort of bringing the puzzle to completion. In short, if we're going to encourage sharing of CAD designs, we should try to limit such posts to posts that contribute to a greater discussion, or make it clear that posting a design does not guarantee the same rights as posting a completed puzzle.

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzle DESIGN subforum
PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 8:32 pm 
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Muffet wrote:
The do not belong in hints of ideas because they are obviously not hints.
I'd say that depends on how obvious one wants their hint to be. Then again one could (and I've seen it done) zoom in enough that only a small portion of the puzzle is shown making it hard to guess what the total puzzle looks like.
Muffet wrote:
They do not belong in new puzzles because while they may be new concepts or ideas they are not yet physical puzzles.
Agreed...
Muffet wrote:
They do not belong in puzzle building in modding because they are not yet being built and are not being modded from any solid puzzle.
Arg!!! Arg!!! Arg!!! This is the same button Tony pushed with me earlier but don't worry. I've calmed down a lot since then. One IS buliding the CAD model. Why should this not count as something interesting and worth sharing as with any other build process which is shared in that subforum? I've recieved lots of compliments and positive feedback in my Real5x5x5 thread... which is still ongoing. I hope to have more to share this coming weekend.
Muffet wrote:
I for one would love to share other things than just new CAD designs, but also methods, tips, models, etc. that have been shared in various places all in the past.
I personally consider this all a part of the build process and I believe they would be welcome there. Granted not everyones build process is the same. And I'm even willing to let those that disagree with me... cough... cough... Tony... cough... have their point of view.
BelcherBoy2000 wrote:
I guess that could really be the place for E-Cubes Designer X.
Is this really driven all by E-Cubes Designer X? Maybe not and maybe others are upset with me too... I shared my POV-Ray model for the Real5x5x5 over 2 years ago and I'm just now getting around to making it real. Because I honestly don't see a big difference between what E-Cubes Designer X has shared and some of the stuff I've shared. I do see a difference in how its shared but again I write that off as him being new and young and I believe I've seen some improment since his initial posts. Then again as I'm an established member maybe I'm pushing the same buttons and everyone is staying silent out of respect. If that's true... trust me that isn't the kind of respect I want.
will_57 wrote:
Recently, I've seen a number of designers posting threads with pictures of in-progress CAD designs, and nothing else.
Part of me wants to see this as no different that posting pictures of a puzzle half physically built and nothing else. One designer choses to build virtually and another designer choses to build with their hands. Though I do see your point. Most view the CADing as much easier and an easy way to stake a claim to a design. Just as I did with the Real5x5x5 and my POV-Ray model years ago. In some cases I'm even inclined to agree but trust me I had weeks worth of coding and trial and error designing invested in that POV-Ray model and building anything in POV-Ray is much harder then you'd think. It was the tool that I knew how to use at the time though and I made it work. I do have finished puzzles to my name and the Real5x5x5 will be a finished puzzle very soon too so that may make a difference but you gave me 2+ years on the Real5x5x5... does E-Cubes Designer X not deserve some time? I know we get impatient. It is human nature. I just know when was his age I wouldn't have been able to aford printing models as fast as he appears to be able to make the designs.
will_57 wrote:
Frankly, I don't see how these sort of posts contribute to the community whatsoever. It's essentially just showing off, unless it is explicitly stated that the design is open for others to draw inspiration from.
Does my Real5x5x5 thread in the Building Subforum contribute to the community? Honestly... I want your opinion. I feel that it has but that doesn't make me right. And maybe I'm reading too much of the reaction to E-Cubes Designer X into these posts but his 5x5x5 design inspried me to make the DoDep3x3x3 which I will be dying this weekend along with the Real5x5x5. A picture is worth a 1000 words and trust me I got more info out of his 5x5x5 CAD pictures then I do out of most threads around here. That is NOT intended to be a critism of the post quality. I just really liked that 5x5x5 design.
will_57 wrote:
What if someone else was working on a similar project? Are they supposed to just drop their work entirely? Moreover, it makes it more difficult for a designer working on a similar design to prove that said design is original work.
Valid concerns... but again something I'm just as guilty of as anyone. I just enjoy sharing more of the process then most.
will_57 wrote:
There are of course exceptions to this, such as if someone makes a post asking for feedback
If there is another designer working on the same idea wouldn't a post asking for feedback step on the same toes? If its not accepable to share the design process yet its ok to ask for feedback on a design in progress then if someone wanted to share they could just post their CAD drawings and say something like "What do you think of this?" or "Do you think this will work?" They've proven they are working on the design and may step on the toes of another designer which was waiting to share a finished puzzle. So if its not ok to share the design it shouldn't be fair to ask for feedback either.
will_57 wrote:
or makes the design free for others to use.
Some have been. I reciently posted my very first POV-Ray puzzle model for others to play with freely... if that counts. I'd encourage you to look at the code for that puzzle to give yourself an idea of the amount of work which goes into making some of these designs.
will_57 wrote:
Other than these cases, I can't see how these types of posts are anything but a quick way to claim the rights to a puzzle without putting in the effort of bringing the puzzle to completion.
I personally think you undervalue the amout of effort needed to make some (agreed not all) of these designs. We also don't all have the same skills. If I tried to do what Tony does I'd either cut a finger off or I'd present something that looked like a scrap pile of plastic pieces. That said... Tony can't do what I can do either... or at least he hasn't.
will_57 wrote:
In short, if we're going to encourage sharing of CAD designs, we should try to limit such posts to posts that contribute to a greater discussion, or make it clear that posting a design does not guarantee the same rights as posting a completed puzzle.
I'm not sure its officially stated anywhere or not... it may be... but I'd always assumed the first designer to publcally share a finished physical puzzle owns that design regarless of what has gone on before. I agree with that and I know I share alot but I'm willing to assume the risk that someone else beats me to the punch on some of them. Granted I feel like I've earned enough respect that most designs which know that I'm working on something are willing to work on other things and wait on me. Either that or I have a knack for picking designs which are considered too crazy for them to put time into. I prefer to think its respect but it is likely some of the later also. I do understand your concerns and I could even argue for them myself. Its just that I'm on the guilty side just as much as anyone else if that is the stance the site chooses to take. If someone elses finished one of my designs before I do and I've already shared that design granted I wouldn't be happy. But most of that would be directed at myself for being so slow. I certainly don't want to impede other designers in any way. I'm sure not all designers look at this the same way and I certainly see the potential for toes to get stepped on and people to get mad. But to me this is a hobby. Its something I enjoy. And I enjoy the process and the sharing as much as I do the final product. If someone stealing one of my designs and taking my credit would really tear me up inside I simply wouldn't share them and I'd likely try to patent them. And I mean that... if tomorrow a company in China were to offer a Real 5x5x5 what was a strait copy of my POV-Ray model which I shared 2 years ago. Life would go on if I never got a dime and they got rich. I'm honestly not in this to make money... maybe offset some of my costs so my wife doesn't get too upset with what I spend but I never envison having more coming in then I do have going out with regards to this hobby.

Anyways... that is my 2 cents. As I feel I'm on the guilty side of this one I'm eager to hear where this goes.
Carl

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzle DESIGN subforum
PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 9:33 pm 
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What are the challenges that come with establishing a new subforum? I mean, I usually just view by unread posts so what subforum it comes from is almost irrelevant to me, but I'm sure not everybody on here does that, and I lack the perspective to say whether or not it's good for the whole website.

I think it would be a great subforum because I do think concentrating this method of puzzle creation into one area will improve the quality of discussion for both that board and the bulding/modding board, because it is well catered.

Carl, I hesitate to be argumentative but I do think you are taking the definition of building a little personally because of past situations. Separating CAD designers and hand builders doesn't imply a distaste for either method. They're just very different from each other and I suggest that warrants a new place to discuss it.

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzle DESIGN subforum
PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 11:32 pm 
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TheCubingKyle wrote:
Carl, I hesitate to be argumentative but I do think you are taking the definition of building a little personally because of past situations. Separating CAD designers and hand builders doesn't imply a distaste for either method. They're just very different from each other and I suggest that warrants a new place to discuss it.
Not taken as argumentative and I'm not necessarily opposed to another subforum. My issue with Tony wasn't so much about the definition of build or make... it was more about who gets credit for building or making. We are all good here... and I'm done arguing over the topic with Tony too. He is welcome to his opinion. It's simply not worth arguing over.

But there are more then 2 ways to make a puzzle. There is hand-modding, casting, 3D printing, injection molding, milling, etc. And there are puzzles which have had hand modded parts and 3D printed parts in the past too. The lines can get blurred.

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzle DESIGN subforum
PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 1:27 am 
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wwwmwww wrote:
But there are more then 2 ways to make a puzzle. There is hand-modding, casting, 3D printing, injection molding, milling, etc. And there are puzzles which have had hand modded parts and 3D printed parts in the past too. The lines can get blurred.

Carl


You're right, I really don't have much experience with modding or creating puzzles, and didn't think about all those methods. But it does still lead me to a subforum proposal.

Perhaps the design board is for cad designs, making molds, how to measure and choose angles for mods or cad designs, posts like the question about curved sticker templates recently, etc. where building and modding is for making the parts, cutting the parts, printing the parts, all of the "final product" stuff where you have the puzzle in your hand.

Again, this could just be more hassle than helpful realistically but in my mind it seems like a nice system

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzle DESIGN subforum
PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 1:31 am 
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wwwmwww wrote:
Part of me wants to see this as no different that posting pictures of a puzzle half physically built and nothing else.

I don't see any reason why hand-built puzzles should be treated differently. I brought up CAD since that's what was being discussed here and because that's what I have experience with, but I think the same etiquette should apply to hand-built puzzles.
wwwmwww wrote:
Does my Real5x5x5 thread in the Building Subforum contribute to the community?

In this case I'd say yes, since you're actually walking through the design process and there is a good discussion going on about the design. It's useful for other designers who can see what methods you use to create your designs. The posts I'm referring to are generally posts with pictures and little to no explanation about the design.
wwwmwww wrote:
If its not accepable to share the design process yet its ok to ask for feedback on a design in progress then if someone wanted to share they could just post their CAD drawings and say something like "What do you think of this?"

This is a good point, so perhaps this isn't as clear-cut as I had originally thought. However, I think the point still stands that there should be some good reason for an unfinished design to be posted, beyond just showing it off. We can consider intellectual property concerns separately, but I just brought up the point because posting unfinished designs can sometimes be a source of such conflicts.
wwwmwww wrote:
I personally think you undervalue the amout of effort needed to make some (agreed not all) of these designs.

I appreciate the effort that goes into creating these designs. I do not appreciate posting of the design without context. In my opinion, the design on its own isn't evidence of work done, unless it is presented with an explanation of the work that has gone into it. This is why I don't have a problem with posts like yours, since the post has valuable information that others can take advantage of. On the other hand, a post containing nothing but a few screenshots is useless to other designers, and only makes intellectual property issues more of a grey area for other potential designers.
wwwmwww wrote:
I'd always assumed the first designer to publcally share a finished physical puzzle owns that design regarless of what has gone on before.

Has that always been the case? Again, I feel like this has always been a bit of a grey area that's usually dealt with on a case-by-case basis involving the independent designers.
wwwmwww wrote:
I'm on the guilty side just as much as anyone else if that is the stance the site chooses to take.

I never meant to accuse you, and I'm not so much complaining about the posting of unfinished designs as I am complaining about the way tend to be presented. If nothing but a screenshot of the design is posted then it might as well be a mockup in MS paint, which isn't useful to anyone. However, if the post clearly contributes something new that is helpful to others, then it is worth it.

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzle DESIGN subforum
PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 7:11 am 
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wwwmwww wrote:
But there are more then 2 ways to make a puzzle. There is hand-modding, casting, 3D printing, injection molding, milling, etc. And there are puzzles which have had hand modded parts and 3D printed parts in the past too. The lines can get blurred.
I'd love to see a subforum dedicated to 3D CAD design. I don't think it's important how the 3D design is used, just the design process and details would be enough. For example, the pieces may form a complete puzzle in itself or be glued onto an untouched mass-produced puzzle or replace parts on an existing puzzle or added to a modified/truncated MP puzzle or any combination of these.

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzle DESIGN subforum
PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 8:08 am 
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Some interesting points have been brought up and I am not really sure still of what the best course of action is, if any.

I had no intention of hurting anyone's feelings or stepping on anyone's toes. Part of this stems back from a few years ago when there were some of us, including me, who were just posting design after design screenshots that were really never going to be made, and people weren't particularly happy with it and we were asked to stop. Since that seems to becoming more prevalent again I thought a separate sub forum would allow a wider range of CAD or design posts to be accepted.

Carl as far as your comment with showing the design process and if your posts are an annoyance, they are not. and I personally think that a design process on the puzzle building and modding is the most acceptable. You have been showing a process of development that has been changing and inspiring. However, I feel this is much different that a few screen shots of a "completed puzzle" that the designer really doesn't intend to change anymore.


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 Post subject: Re: Puzzle DESIGN subforum
PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 1:07 pm 
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Thanks guys. I've welcomed the feedback. Regarding feelings and stepping on toes... I'm fine. I didn't take any of this that way. Believe me I understand the concerns and I don't have all the best answers. Many designers... I suspect most designers... don't like to show their work until they have a finished product. There is NOTHING wrong with that and I totally understand the concerns of tipping off the competition and having your ideas taken or even produced as a KO puzzle. I personally don't see this as a competition and to be honest... as long as I got credit from you guys a part of me would actually be flattered if someone else liked my design well enough to turn it into a KO puzzle. Granted I'd prefer it had my name on it... but I wouldn't be devistated if it didn't. So I do think in some ways I'm the odd man out and I acknowledge that I do run the risk of sharing an idea before its finished and its entrirely possible that another designer had the same or similiar idea before I did and could have been days away from presenting a finished puzzle. If that were to happen I would certainly feel very guilty and I would feel like I had stepped on their toes. In that way I do try to cut sort of nitch areas to work in as I think the puzzles I make sort of fall into a different design style the most other designers. I think some of that comes from having starting with POV-Ray which requires lots of heavy trig and 3D geometry calculations to get things set up properly. Oskar and I do have some simpliar puzzles. The Gear Cube Kit for example but in that case Oskar supplied me with the gears and I built the rest up from there. We also both have some Bubbloid type puzzles but his mechanism looks very different then mine. So I do make some effort to avoid stepping on toes but is certainly a real possibility.

Regarding a new subforum... like I said I'm not opposed. I see there could be some value to it. I'm just not certain its the best solution. So I certainly do consider this a good discussion.

Regarding those that post little more then CAD drawings... Let's look at E-Cube's 5x5x5 thread for a moment:
http://twistypuzzles.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=26410
A direct consequence of that thread was this thread:
http://twistypuzzles.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=26446
So I personally saw ALOT of value in that first thread. I saw something in the 5x5x5 which struck me as very original and its something NO one else (except for myself) has even really tried to do, at least at this order. The 4x4x4 with a 2x2x2 inside has already been well covered.

To date... ALL 5x5x5 that you can get your hands on are built the same way. They are all basically 3x3x3's which have extra slice layers added to them. The 5x5x5 face piece is connected directly to the core just as a 3x3x3 face piece would be. And the middle edges and the corners function exactly like the edges and corners do on a 3x3x3. There is NO opportunity in ANY of the existing produced puzzles to be able to place with 5x5x5 corners AND 3x3x3 corners on the same puzzle as the 3x3x3 corner has been re-purposed as the 5x5x5 corner. Same goes for the middle edges and face centers. My very first POV-Ray model was an attempt to get these pieces to co-exist but aside from being nice to look at I knew it was a very poor design from a practical point of view. My Real5x5x5 was another attempt at this (which I believe will work and I'll know soon) but its a very complex design which contains far more then the 125 pieces you might expect would be needed. E-Cube's 5x5x5 is the simpliest design I have yet seen that pulls this off (well except for the 3x3x3 face centers which I now see how to add if I really wanted them there). In hind sight his solution seems obvious to me but I can assure you its anything but as I've been working in this very problem for YEARS (go back and check the date on the POV-Ray model I shared) and nothing this simple or elegant has come to me and on top of it his design appears VERY practicle. Granted as a designer I may be better suited to looking at his 2D CAD drawings and being able to pull out lots of info. In this case there was enough info I could basically reconstruct the entire puzzle which is more or less what I did. So its really hard for me to say there is little or no value in someone posting just CAD drawings. To be honest the very first thing I did when I saw that 5x5x5 thread was to copy all the pictures to my hard drive in case they disapeared the next day... they were that valuable to me. But I agree the way he's sharing this info is less then ideal. And the way he's going about it posting so many new designs, I agree he runs a higher risk of stepping on toes then most. I don't believe that is his intent and I do believe he's trying to improve. Maybe I just have more patients then most in this regard as I'm asking so much in the way of patients myself. I'll admit my Real5x5x5 works is going much slower now then I had hoped it would go... and that isn't counting the 2 years it really took to get off the ground.

So in short I think I have a different perspective then most. I understand the concerns and the last thing I want to see is other designers scared off or turned off of twisty puzzles entirely because I or E-Cubes or someone else posted a design a few days before they were going to post a finished puzzle they had worked long and hard on... only to be upset that one of us stole all their thunder. It can happen and has probably happened already in one form or another. So I'm honestly not sure what the best answer is. I enjoy sharing the design process real time (but I don't always) and this site doesn't exist solely for my enjoyment. A ruling that nothing is to be shared until a finished puzzle is ready to be presented sounds like the most fair solution. But it could stifle the open sharing envirement and have unforseen consequences too.

Carl

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzle DESIGN subforum
PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 2:30 pm 
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How about an "Open Collaboration Forum" to clarify that any designs which are posted there are by definition open for anyone to take from and/or contribute to, in the spirit of open innovation? Because that's what posting unproven designs essentially is, like it or not! Posting unproven designs should never be regarded as a claim to intellectual property, because it would actually discourage people from taking the effort to create real working puzzles, which is NOT what any of us wants, IMO... So if people are not willing to share their designs on an open basis like this, then they should keep their designs to themselves until they turn them into real puzzles, but risk being scooped by others with the same idea.

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzle DESIGN subforum
PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 2:35 pm 
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I have kept my mouth shut so far, but I will spout my opinion too: I really agree with what Kelvin is saying; posting a design: ok. But it should be free for others to use and improve on without consequence if it has not been built yet.

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzle DESIGN subforum
PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 3:30 pm 
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The below is just my personal perspective...
KelvinS wrote:
How about an "Open Collaboration Forum" to clarify that any designs which are posted there are by definition open for anyone to take from and/or contribute to, in the spirit of open innovation?
But knowing I'm slow I'm not really want to encourage someone to take my Real5x5x5 and run with it before I finish mine. I work a real job and can't put the time into this hobby that many others could.
KelvinS wrote:
Because that's what posting unproven designs essentially is, like it or not!
True. I couldn't stop anyone... I'm just not sure I want to encourage that. I've demonstrated I'm working toward a finished puzzle so I would hope everyone would be willing to wait.
KelvinS wrote:
Posting unproven designs should never be regarded as a claim to intellectual property, because it would actually discourage people from taking the effort to create real working puzzles, which is NOT what any of us wants,
Not sure I agree with this. A posted design is still protected by copyright if anyone was willing to fight over the mater. And its possible to create IP short of having a finished product. Verdes owns a patent on his 11x11x11. Does he have a physical sample of a working 11x11x11 or did he at the time he got the patent? He might have... I honestly don't know and I'm not certain what the patent office would require. But I would certainly call his 11x11x11 design IP and to my knowledge no finished 11x11x11 has ever been presented by Verdes. Granted that is a patent... I don't have a patent on any of the models I've presented but I do look at many of them as IP.
KelvinS wrote:
IMO... So if people are not willing to share their designs on an open basis like this, then they should keep their designs to themselves until they turn them into real puzzles, but risk being scooped by others with the same idea.
That is a fair response... in my case it would just encourage me to be less open. Then again to date no one has really taken one of my designs and ran with it so I might continue to risk it.

Please don't take any of this as an argument. I really can see this issue from both sides. And I could even convince myself that I was being gready by asking for cake and eating it too. In an ideal world I'd get a patent on all my designs. I just simply can't aford that option for this hobby. And there certainly seems to be enough respect between designers that sharing my designs the way I have has proven to be minimal risk so far. Maybe I am taking advantage of this system... I'm just not sure.

Carl

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzle DESIGN subforum
PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 4:24 pm 
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wwwmwww wrote:
The below is just my personal perspective...
KelvinS wrote:
How about an "Open Collaboration Forum" to clarify that any designs which are posted there are by definition open for anyone to take from and/or contribute to, in the spirit of open innovation?
But knowing I'm slow I'm not really want to encourage someone to take my Real5x5x5 and run with it before I finish mine. I work a real job and can't put the time into this hobby that many others could.
Carl, if you don't want people to take advantage of your unfinished/unbuilt designs, then simply don't post them on a public forum. Because regardless of what code of ethics we might agree between ourselves, everything here is potentially visible to 7 billion people, and we can't expect them all to play by *your/our* rules. As for people who are happy to share their designs in an open and collaborative manner, we'll I just think that a forum is the perfect way to recognize and also enable this, so why not here?

But you certainly can't have it both ways (or have your cake and eat it, as you say), expecting people to contribute to, but not take anything from whatever designs you choose to publish. You can choose to be either open about your designs and ideas, or closed, but not a one-way street/mirror.

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzle DESIGN subforum
PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 4:40 pm 
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wwwmwww wrote:
KelvinS wrote:
Posting unproven designs should never be regarded as a claim to intellectual property, because it would actually discourage people from taking the effort to create real working puzzles, which is NOT what any of us wants,
Not sure I agree with this. A posted design is still protected by copyright if anyone was willing to fight over the mater.

Actually that's not true, posting a 2D picture of a 3D design protects only that specific 2D picture by copyright, not the 3D design itself. Similarly, I can copyright an original artistic photo of an orange, but that doesn't give me a copyright for all oranges! So If you want to protect the actual 3D design, get a patent, because that's what they're for. :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzle DESIGN subforum
PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 6:24 pm 
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KelvinS wrote:
Carl, if you don't want people to take advantage of your unfinished/unbuilt designs, then simply don't post them on a public forum. Because regardless of what code of ethics we might agree between ourselves, everything here is potentially visible to 7 billion people, and we can't expect them all to play by *your/our* rules.
Agreed... that is a risk. Which I've been willing to accept. That is different from saying you are welcome to take this and do what ever you want with it. Granted anyone can... but I wouldn't want to encourage it with most of my designs. And this same risk exists even when you post a finished puzzle. Nothing is really keeping 1 of those 7 billion from taking your design and getting it produced and taking credit for all the IP. This site would call it a KO but I doubt that would have any impact at all on most of the 7 billion out there.
KelvinS wrote:
But you certainly can't have it both ways (or have your cake and eat it, as you say), expecting people to contribute to, but not take anything from whatever designs you choose to publish. You can choose to be either open about your designs and ideas, or closed, but not a one-way street/mirror.
Ideally I do expect there to be a take away. I share the process and I hope that gives insite to other designers that will help them with their designs, encourage and help those that may wish to get into design, and when others share I learn from them too. A prime example is TomZ's video showing how to make a sticker template which I've been very greatful for. So I certainly hope others are taking something away from my posts. But not necessaily the specific design itself.... or at least I would ask that they wait till after I've presented mine. That would be a request... I know there is no way I could enforce that (at reasonable cost at least).
KelvinS wrote:
Actually that's not true, posting a 2D picture of a 3D design protects only that specific 2D picture by copyright, not the 3D design itself. So If you want to protect the actual 3D design, get a patent, because that's what they're for. :wink:
Anyone out there want to sponsor a few patents? If so PM me. Because I'd simply prefer to stay married. :) Yes, I agree that is what they are for but I honestly don't know enough law to know what if any protection copyright offers in the case of 3D designs. What if I had posted a 3D PDF? I think it offers a bit more then you think. I know this very post is protected itself. If it were copied and posted elsewhere by someone else claiming this was their words I could go after them. In most cases it would be far more touble this it was worth. And even if 3D designs weren't propected... that doesn't mean they aren't IP. It would just mean I'm stupid for posting them out in the open before getting that IP protected. But so far I've been willing to take some risk... be a little stupid... as I enjoy the sharing process (yes the give and take). But there is so much more shared in this process then just the design that I'm working on. If I thought there was big money at state or I thought I could make a living at this I would approach this differently but I'd prefer to spend my money getting puzzles printed then getting puzzles patented. And keep in mind there are other designs of mine that I haven't shared too. The Real5x5x5 was mostly designed before I had the know how to actually get it printed so it was already out there. The DoDep3x3x3 I shared for 2 reasons. One, because I was enjoying sharing the Real5x5x5 so much. And two, I wanted to try and help others see there was value in the designs E-Cubes was sharing. Note I could have easily made the parts that would allow me to make my own E-Cubes 5x5x5 but I refrained from making those parts. I just don't feel it would be right for me to take his design... but I did certainly take something away.

Carl

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Last edited by wwwmwww on Wed Feb 05, 2014 8:06 pm, edited 6 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzle DESIGN subforum
PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 7:11 pm 
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Nice points made, so I will give my own two drachmas...

I totally agree that CAD designs do not belong to the New Puzzles forum.
Not sure about the rest though.

:)


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 Post subject: Re: Puzzle DESIGN subforum
PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 7:56 pm 
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kastellorizo wrote:
I totally agree that CAD designs do not belong to the New Puzzles forum.
I'm in 100% agreement there at least. See... I agree sometimes. LOL!!!

Carl

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzle DESIGN subforum
PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 8:07 pm 
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wwwmwww wrote:
kastellorizo wrote:
I totally agree that CAD designs do not belong to the New Puzzles forum.
I'm in 100% agreement there at least. See... I agree sometimes. LOL!!!


I am sure there we all agree in most points. It is just finding that... golden section! :D

Regarding the Modding and Building Forum, I guess that if the post starts with a CAD model,
then mentioning in the title the word "CAD" may be sufficient to warn anyone who is not into them.
(I admit, they are not my cup of tea too, but sometimes I enjoy the analysis of their details).

:)


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 Post subject: Re: Puzzle DESIGN subforum
PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 8:48 pm 
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Sorry if this is off topic, but I was wondering if there is a place to post puzzle ideas. I have a few ideas with feasible mechanisms but am too lazy to make them myself :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzle DESIGN subforum
PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 9:05 pm 
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cuberboy13 wrote:
Sorry if this is off topic, but I was wondering if there is a place to post puzzle ideas. I have a few ideas with feasible mechanisms but am too lazy to make them myself :lol:

Quote from the puzzle building and modding description:
Quote:
Advice, examples, methods, materials, puzzle ideas, and on-going projects.

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzle DESIGN subforum
PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 11:18 pm 
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wwwmwww wrote:
its possible to create IP short of having a finished product. Verdes owns a patent on his 11x11x11. Does he have a physical sample of a working 11x11x11 or did he at the time he got the patent? He might have... I honestly don't know and I'm not certain what the patent office would require. But I would certainly call his 11x11x11 design IP and to my knowledge no finished 11x11x11 has ever been presented by Verdes.
There clearly have been instances where someone is granted intellectual property without having shown a finished puzzle, and V-cubes is a great example of this. A patent is certainly proof of effort that has gone into a design, but it is not a completed puzzle. So, where do we draw the line? The forum rules are rather unclear:

Please respect the law and do not copy any work unless you have written permission from its owner.
Is a 3D design considered "work"? The Knockoff Policy goes into a bit more detail, but is still unclear:

Puzzles considered "protected by their rightful owners" includes, but may not be limited to: ... all new puzzle designs and variations created within the last 5 years, and any older designs still being "reserved" by the rightful owner.
Does "created" imply a design brought to completion, or any design posted publicly? Moreover, does posting screenshots of a design "reserve" said design? I'm not necessarily arguing for one side over the other, but I believe that we need an explicitly defined policy regarding this issue, especially if we are going to encourage sharing of incomplete designs.

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzle DESIGN subforum
PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 11:24 pm 
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I have one idea: Bermuda Hexaminxes (since, you know, we have the Megaminx equivalent).


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 Post subject: Re: Puzzle DESIGN subforum
PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 11:35 pm 
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This is all incredibly valuable and entertaining discussion but I think we should go back to talking about whether or not a new designing subforum is good for the site because I'm eager to see what we make of this idea :)

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzle DESIGN subforum
PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 2:56 am 
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cuberboy13 wrote:
Sorry if this is off topic, but I was wondering if there is a place to post puzzle ideas. I have a few ideas with feasible mechanisms but am too lazy to make them myself :lol:

That's no problem at all, and certainly I don't object to sharing ideas in an open manner, as I do sometimes, but may I ask what are your motives and expectations for this? To invite feedback, to feel proud, to teach or learn or both, to hope someone will develop the idea further, perhaps even make a physical model, or to somehow "claim" the idea as yours and off-grounds to others? I think we need to understand our own motives for this before deciding what would be best for the community as a whole.

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