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 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ┬ęCarl Hoff October 23, 2010
PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 2:02 am 
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wwwmwww wrote:
Not certain I'm sure what your black and red dots mean but I think I follow the rest. And I think we are pretty much on the same page.
I made a table (so the dots mean they're the same piece type, but they're different views):
Attachment:
Crazy Circle Comparison 2.jpg
Crazy Circle Comparison 2.jpg [ 593.55 KiB | Viewed 2786 times ]
wwwmwww wrote:
The reason why I think you'd need an extra ring would be due to the mechanism. If you just had two circles (one ring and one circle), you'd have parts for the 5x5x5 Face Layer, the 5x5x5 Circle Center, and the 3x3x3 Circle Center on each face. You wouldn't have any pieces on the surface that represented the 3x3x3 Face Layer. The mechanism would require that these pieces exist. If they are exposed on the surface alignment is taken care of my the user. If they are all hidden inside the puzzle the alignment of the 3x3x3 Layer Pieces inside could get out of alignment with the rest of the puzzle. There may be other ways to solve that issue but why not bring them to the surface where they can be solved too.
Do you mean that there would be a second ring that is twisted independently by the user? Can you draw a picture? In my thinking I see all piece types, except now (naturally for a Crazy puzzle) pieces like the 333 corner stickers are able to be dislodged from their `normal relationships`. Do you mean that you would like to see `those` + the standard 333 pieces working at the same time?

You'll probably have time to think about this while you wait for your parts :( .. considering that you can't even start with `no core`!

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 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ┬ęCarl Hoff October 23, 2010
PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 2:48 am 
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wwwmwww wrote:
I thought it very odd that the core, the single largest piece, was one of the ones to go missing. But I've now emailed Shapeways and I suspect they'll get things corrected. They always do. But it means another delay. Oh well...

I've had a core missing several times. The first few times I had the same though: "How'd they lose the core? it's the biggest piece!". But if you think about it, it's also the least like the other pieces. If you're sorting parts based on what they look like they go to, the core doesn't really look like it belongs in the print.

I watched your videos and noticed you didn't test the interactions between the parts. How well do they fit / move with each other?

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 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ┬ęCarl Hoff October 23, 2010
PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 7:22 am 
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wwwmwww wrote:
I thought it very odd that the core, the single largest piece, was one of the ones to go missing. But I've now emailed Shapeways and I suspect they'll get things corrected. They always do. But it means another delay. Oh well...
Patience Grasshopper, patience. Like Brandon, I also wondered if the parts fit together OK.

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 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ┬ęCarl Hoff October 23, 2010
PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 11:54 am 
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Burgo wrote:
I made a table (so the dots mean they're the same piece type, but they're different views)
Thanks. That helps.
Burgo wrote:
Do you mean that there would be a second ring that is twisted independently by the user?
No.
Burgo wrote:
Can you draw a picture? In my thinking I see all piece types, except now (naturally for a Crazy puzzle) pieces like the 333 corner stickers are able to be dislodged from their `normal relationships`. Do you mean that you would like to see `those` + the standard 333 pieces working at the same time?
Yes, that is exactly what I mean. The puzzle will need those normal 3x3x3 pieces inside it to function properly... at least I believe so. And if they aren't exposed on the surface then the alignment of those normal pieces with the others I believe could be a problem. Here is the type of cuts I'm envisioning just applied to one axis...
Attachment:
Drawing.png
Drawing.png [ 226.93 KiB | Viewed 2726 times ]

The red ring ALWAYS moves with the red layer... it contains your normal 3x3x3 pieces.
The yellow circle is the 3x3x3 circle parts... it sometimes moves with the red 3x3x3 layer and is sometimes tied to the green core layer. It can vary from face to face of the puzzle.
The magenta circle is the 5x5x5 circle parts... it sometimes moves with the red 3x3x3 layer and sometimes with the blue 5x5x5 layer. It too can vary from face to face of the puzzle.

I don't have a full mechanism in my head so I'm not certain this will work or even if geometry will allow one to make all possible piece types in the same physical puzzle but its how I would approach making the puzzle you are interested in.

Carl

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 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ┬ęCarl Hoff October 23, 2010
PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 7:56 am 
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I have a mechanism idea, so I will post my suggested approach soon. :D

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 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ┬ęCarl Hoff October 23, 2010
PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2013 6:24 pm 
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Quick Update... Shapeways took a week to see if they could locate the 2 missing parts. They could not. So they are now re-printing the 2 missing pieces. Their website gives me an estimated ship date of Dec. 31.

Before then I'll test the interaction of the pieces I do have as best I can and try to post a few pictures.

Thanks for your patience,
Carl

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 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ┬ęCarl Hoff October 23, 2010
PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2013 11:31 pm 
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Another Update...

Shapeways has now shipped the last 2 parts needed. The UPS tracking is telling me:

Scheduled Delivery:
Tuesday, 12/31/2013, By End of Day

I also did some test fitting today. All the parts I have fit together very well and turn easily against their immediate neighbors. It's hard to say much more then that without a core to hold everything together. I've sort of worked out how the assembly will go. I'll first build up composite edges and composite corners and I think I can assemble this like a big 3x3x3. Here is a composite edge put together for a test fit.

Attachment:
EdgeTest1.png
EdgeTest1.png [ 1.12 MiB | Viewed 2431 times ]

Attachment:
EdgeTest2.png
EdgeTest2.png [ 1.03 MiB | Viewed 2431 times ]


Here is a composite corner put together for a test fit.

Attachment:
CornerTest1.png
CornerTest1.png [ 1.09 MiB | Viewed 2431 times ]

Attachment:
CornerTest2.png
CornerTest2.png [ 1.09 MiB | Viewed 2431 times ]

Attachment:
CornerTest3.png
CornerTest3.png [ 1.09 MiB | Viewed 2431 times ]

Attachment:
CornerTest4.png
CornerTest4.png [ 1.14 MiB | Viewed 2431 times ]


And the composite edge placed next to the composite corner for test fitting.

Attachment:
Combine1.png
Combine1.png [ 1.06 MiB | Viewed 2431 times ]

Attachment:
Combine2.png
Combine2.png [ 1.07 MiB | Viewed 2431 times ]

Attachment:
Combine3.png
Combine3.png [ 1.08 MiB | Viewed 2431 times ]


Enjoy,
Carl

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 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ┬ęCarl Hoff October 23, 2010
PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2013 11:37 pm 
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Wow! This looks menacing! I can't wait to see this finished and stickered, which brings me to ask whether or not you have them or when you will receive them. And you'll probably be spending you New Year's Holiday days on dying this puzzle and assembling/stickering(?) it.

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 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ┬ęCarl Hoff October 23, 2010
PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2013 11:37 pm 
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Wow! It's great to see it being put together. Crossing my fingers that it works well enough to solve and scramble.

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 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ┬ęCarl Hoff October 23, 2010
PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 12:09 am 
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BelcherBoy2000 wrote:
Wow! This looks menacing! I can't wait to see this finished and stickered, which brings me to ask whether or not you have them or when you will receive them. And you'll probably be spending you New Year's Holiday days on dying this puzzle and assembling/stickering(?) it.
I may be able to dye the puzzle as soon as the 1st. I just placed another order with Shapeways yesterday for 2 other puzzles to take advantage of their 20% off sale on one's own designs so I may wait on those so they can all be dyed at once. We'll see how bored I am on the first. And no I haven't ordered the stickers yet. I've made the template and I'll get it sent over to Oliver for a quote this week. I was planning on assembling the puzzle to verify everything worked before ordering the stickers. That really won't slow me down as I generally use a fair amount of Silicon Spray to help lubricate and break in the puzzle. Most of my puzzles get played with for a hour or so most days for a week or two before they are stickered. This allows them to get broken in and allows all the silicone spray to dry and work itself into the puzzle. For that first week you can tell the silicone is still coming off on your hands and if the puzzle were stickered at this stage it would discolor the stickers. Most notably the white would become sort of an off white. You might not even notice but in the past I've sold puzzles were the buyer asked me to sign a white sticker. This is easier to do before the sticker is attached so I signed a new sticker and replaced an old one. At that point it was easy to see the new white sticker was much brighter then the old one so I ended up replacing the entire face. Now I just wait about two weeks and make sure the puzzle is good and dry before I attached stickers. So I'm still about 3 weeks or so out from needing stickers even if everything works as planned.

I currently have an unstickered Doctor Skewb version 2 which I play with in the evenings while watching TV. I've been playing with it for about a month and its by far the best turning Doctor Skewb I've made yet. The version 2 will be replacing the version 1 in my Shapeways shop soon.

Carl

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Last edited by wwwmwww on Mon Dec 30, 2013 10:39 am, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ┬ęCarl Hoff October 23, 2010
PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 6:45 am 
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Pardon me for my ignorance, but how do the circles react when a face is turned? What about the deeper cut face?

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 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ┬ęCarl Hoff October 23, 2010
PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 8:46 am 
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rubikcollector123 wrote:
Pardon me for my ignorance, but how do the circles react when a face is turned? What about the deeper cut face?
Do the animations I posted on page 2 answer your question?

Carl

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 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ┬ęCarl Hoff October 23, 2010
PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 9:39 am 
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Wow...
This is coming so close...
Can't wait to see this completed!!!
What a magnificent piece of art, congratulations!

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 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ┬ęCarl Hoff October 23, 2010
PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2014 12:25 pm 
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Just wanted to chime in and say how awesome this is going to be!

Also, I was wondering something. Since you have detailed so well the making of this puzzle - I wonder if you would be willing to share the solidworks file with those who might want it? I'd also be interested in the povray file... Just for learning purposes.

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 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ┬ęCarl Hoff October 23, 2010
PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2014 10:19 pm 
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jabeck wrote:
Just wanted to chime in and say how awesome this is going to be!
Thank you very much!!!
jabeck wrote:
Also, I was wondering something. Since you have detailed so well the making of this puzzle - I wonder if you would be willing to share the solidworks file with those who might want it? I'd also be interested in the povray file... Just for learning purposes.
Of all my designs this is the only one I've gone out of my way to point out that I'm copyrighting the design. Technically I believe they are all protected by copyright anyways. But ever since the POV-Ray model, this is one I've been particularly proud of. My intent is that if this works I will offer it on Shapeways. And seeing how most circle cubes to date have made it to mass production I believe this one has a fair chance of that as well. So I'll tell you what... if this makes it to mass production I'd be willing to post the SolidWorks and POV-Ray files. Till then I'd like to hold it a little closer then that as I hope to sell a few on Shapeways.

Granted there is enough info I've released already that most experienced designers should be able to make their own in SolidWorks already. But I have probably about 100 or more man hours into this already that I wouldn't expect most would want to repeat if they could just order mine. If I released the SolidWorks files everyone could just upload their own to Shapeways and they'd never buy mine. But if you want the SolidWorks and POV-Ray files you are certainly encouraged to help me get this mass produced. I'd LOVE to see this in the local mall someday with my name on it.

But I'm getting ahead of myself... let's make sure this even works before my dreams get too big for my head.

Carl

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Last edited by wwwmwww on Tue Jan 07, 2014 10:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ┬ęCarl Hoff October 23, 2010
PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2014 11:04 pm 
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I love your cube. Is it circle or a crazy cube? I got the perfect name for it.

Carl Hoff's 5x5x5 double circle Pac - Man cube

You Like?

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 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ┬ęCarl Hoff October 23, 2010
PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 3:48 am 
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wwwmwww wrote:
But I'm getting ahead of myself... let's make sure this even works before my dreams get too big for my head.
That's the point about dreams, they are never too big for your head :wink:

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Last edited by Gus on Tue Jan 07, 2014 5:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ┬ęCarl Hoff October 23, 2010
PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 3:54 am 
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I have been following this project with increasing interest for every post, and I too have to say that it have been truly fascinating to follow your detailed explanation and pictures from start, to (soon to be) finish.
I would hope this is the beginning of a trend as the process to me is almost, if not as much, interesting as solving a new puzzle.

wwwmwww wrote:
My intend is that if this works I will offer it on Shapeways.

I can fully understand that you hope to get this mass produced, but if this gets on Shapeways I will get it no matter what. This is a puzzle I for one cannot wait to play with! After the Crazy2face + CrazyB4cube kit, this will be the next big save up for me!

Keep up the amazing work Carl :)

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 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ┬ęCarl Hoff October 23, 2010
PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 8:57 am 
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WOW :shock: !!!
FANTASTIC. This puzzle is soooooo good.
It is going to blow my mind.
Thank you so much :P


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 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ┬ęCarl Hoff October 23, 2010
PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 9:17 am 
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wwwmwww wrote:
jabeck wrote:
Just wanted to chime in and say how awesome this is going to be!
Thank you very much!!!
jabeck wrote:
Also, I was wondering something. Since you have detailed so well the making of this puzzle - I wonder if you would be willing to share the solidworks file with those who might want it? I'd also be interested in the povray file... Just for learning purposes.
Of all my designs this is the only one I've got out of my way to point out that I'm copyrighting the design. Technically I believe they are all protected by copyright anyways. But ever since the POV-Ray model, this is one I've been particularly proud of. My intend is that if this works I will offer it on Shapeways. And seeing how most circle cubes to date have made it to mass production I believe this one has a fair chance of that as well. So I'll tell you what... if this makes it to mass production I'd be willing to post the SolidWorks and POV-Ray files. Till then I'd like to hold it a little closer then that as I hope to sell a few on Shapeways.

Granted there is enough info I've released already that most experienced designers should be able to make their own in SolidWorks already. But I have probably about 100 or more man hours into this already that I wouldn't expect most would want to repeat that if they could just order mine. If I released the SolidWorks files everyone could just upload their own to Shapeways and they'd never buy mine. But if you want the SolidWorks and POV-Ray files you are certainly encouraged to help me get this mass produced. I'd LOVE to see this in the local mall someday with my name on it.

But I'm getting ahead of myself... let's make sure this even works before my dreams get too big for my head.

Carl


Totally understand! I had a feeling that was the case, but couldn't hurt to ask... :) I could probably figure it out too, I just like looking at others designs and tricks and such...

As a general question then, do you have any of your povray source code that you would be willing to share - just like a standard 3x3x3 or anything? I used to use povray years ago...

Thanks!

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 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ┬ęCarl Hoff October 23, 2010
PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2014 10:10 pm 
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jabeck wrote:
Totally understand! I had a feeling that was the case, but couldn't hurt to ask... :) I could probably figure it out too, I just like looking at others designs and tricks and such...

As a general question then, do you have any of your povray source code that you would be willing to share - just like a standard 3x3x3 or anything? I used to use povray years ago...

Thanks!
Here is my very first POV-Ray puzzle mechanism. In some sense, its the first version of my Real5x5x5 as it is also a 5x5x5 with a 3x3x3 inside (or at least room for one).
Attachment:
First5x5x5.txt [27.91 KiB]
Downloaded 28 times
Here is what it looks like.
Attachment:
First5x5x5.png
First5x5x5.png [ 92.29 KiB | Viewed 1944 times ]
Keep in mind this was made to look good with no real intention of printing it as is. Most of my POV-Ray models have no filleting, though its easy to fillet cubes so this one does. And non of my POV-Ray models have appropriate tolerances for 3D printing. They simply weren't made for that purpose.

This model was made back in January 2007 and presented here:
http://twistypuzzles.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6187

The idea for this mechanism came to me after seeing this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HyxLQpraM88
As the puzzle in this video clearly isn't a 3x3x3, though I believe the people that made the video thought it was.

Carl

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 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ┬ęCarl Hoff October 23, 2010
PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2014 11:09 pm 
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Wow - thanks very much for all of that! I think it's really neat how POV-RAY can be used for such things. I'm mostly just interested in how you coded it, not in using it or anything... It seems like it would really be a handy way to try out new ideas quickly if I could get the hang of it, instead of messing with SolidWorks...

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 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ┬ęCarl Hoff October 23, 2010
PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 10:32 pm 
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Quick update...

I had been waiting on my DoDep 3x3x3 to arrive so I could dye the puzzles at the same time. It got here this week and today I went to clean all the parts of several puzzles to prep them for dying and I broke 1 arm off of a 3x3x3 corner. I believe it was a printing defect as all the other arms are much stronger then the one that broke but I'm not going to argue with Shapeways over it. I'll be ordering extras of all the Real5x5x5 parts today with 2 extra 3x3x3 corners. The target ship date is Jan 27th 2014. Sorry for yet another delay. If another corner breaks on me the only real way to beef things up is to make things bigger. This is already my most expensive puzzle so I'm not prepared to go there just yet. Plus once its assembled it should be much stronger as the neighboring pieces should really limit the amount those thin arms can flex.

Carl

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 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ┬ęCarl Hoff October 23, 2010
PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 3:00 am 
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The anticipation of seeing this monster assembled is killing me. Can't wait to see how well it functions!

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 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ┬ęCarl Hoff October 23, 2010
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I want to see this finished soooo badly... We all understand perfectly that these things take time. This is your project, so there is no need to apologize for the delay Carl! I think you'd like yourself to finish this puzzle more than any of us could ever want you to!

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 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ┬ęCarl Hoff October 23, 2010
PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2014 9:37 pm 
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Wow!!! I got a PM about a double circle 5x5x5 today and I see the post here as well:

http://twistypuzzles.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=313516#p313516
http://bbs.mf8-china.com/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=100897

Oh this is too close for comfort. At least its not my Real5x5x5. My thanks go out to Jared for starting this thread:

http://twistypuzzles.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=26258

Had it not been for that thread, I likely would have still been wondering where I'd find the time to work this in. This has been a dream puzzle of mine for years. I've been thinking about this puzzle since at least 2006. See Tony's post about the concept here:

http://twistypuzzles.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5719

But it wasn't till 2010 that I worked out a mechanism. And if it weren't for the need to pay bills and make ends meet I likely would have had this finished years ago. So trust me... I want this finished ASAP. This is my baby and I don't want to lose her now.

Carl

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 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ┬ęCarl Hoff October 23, 2010
PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 6:36 am 
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Hi Carl,

I know from experience, exactly how you feel. I spent my last holidays hand modding Crazy2face puzzles, and within a week of me finishing, MF8 announced that they were mass producing them. At that stage, these puzzles were 1/2 my kit. Luckily, I was cutting so fine a profit that it was not more expensive to buy my kit than to buy the MP product, so no-one was upset. In the end, Rline and I were the first to produce and sell his (and my) conceived ideas `by 1 week`, in some gigantic fluke :shock: .

MF8 have hinted at a Crazy555 for a while now, in hints buried within threads, and they have been producing Crazy and `some` Circle cubes for a few years now, but nowhere near as long as you've been at it. You have been at the cutting edge of these ideas from the beginning. You have been an inspiration Carl.

While MF8's puzzle isn't technically the same as yours. And as you know, I've been really hanging out for a Crazy555 series, and I can't wait to buy multiple versions of their puzzle, and mod it to a full Crazy series if they don't produce that. One thing's for sure though: Somewhere along the road, your ideas and inspiration have contributed to the mass production of this puzzle, and people's desire to want it. It would be nice if you got a PM from them.

I for one will still buy your `Real555` because of it's history and significance.

Cheers,
Burgo.

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 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ┬ęCarl Hoff October 23, 2010
PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 7:22 am 
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I can understand the frustration in this and if I were you I would definitely contact mf8 about this, and then indeed hope you get a reply from them through PM.


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 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ┬ęCarl Hoff October 23, 2010
PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 11:31 am 
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Burgo wrote:
MF8 have hinted at a Crazy555 for a while now, in hints buried within threads, and they have been producing Crazy and `some` Circle cubes for a few years now
Agreed. My frustration is mostly with myself for not making time for this sooner. This isn't a true Multi5x5x5 they have presented so its NOT my Real5x5x5. I'm not wanting to make any claim on their design or to discourage innovation.
Burgo wrote:
One thing's for sure though: Somewhere along the road, your ideas and inspiration have contributed to the mass production of this puzzle, and people's desire to want it. It would be nice if you got a PM from them.
Stuff like this is very hard to prove. If MF8 feels my ideas were their inspiration for this puzzle and they want to acknowledge that... Lots of ifs there... I would be honored to have my name on it. But I wouldn't be comfortable asking for any more then that. And to be honest... I wouldn't be comfortable asking for that unless it was what MF8 desired.

If I were to PM MF8, I would be MUCH more interested in working with them to get my Real5x5x5 mass produced but I feel that's premature before I have a working prototype in hand. If MF8 is interested in starting the process before then I'm certainly receptive to that. And if they'd value any of my input or review of their Crazy555, I'd be more then happy to offer that as well.

But at this stage it personally feels more like me sticking my nose in their business. I've never made the claim that I own all double circle cube designs nor would I want it perceived that way. Its just that I was always expecting mine to be the first. Had I known these pics were about surface, I would have assembled my Real5x5x5 before dying it black to make some similar pictures.

Does anyone know if MF8 is following this thread? I really would love to start a positive dialog with them and I certainly don't want to come across as being upset with them over THEIR design.

Thanks,
Carl

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 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ┬ęCarl Hoff October 23, 2010
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wwwmwww wrote:
Burgo wrote:
One thing's for sure though: Somewhere along the road, your ideas and inspiration have contributed to the mass production of this puzzle, and people's desire to want it. It would be nice if you got a PM from them.
But at this stage it personally feels more like me sticking my nose in their business. I've never made the claim that I own all double circle cube designs nor would I want it perceived that way. Its just that I was always expecting mine to be the first. Had I known these pics were about surface, I would have assembled my Real5x5x5 before dying it black to make some similar pictures.
When your journey is so publicly shared with us, unfortunately it may not be as obviously public to MF8. I understand that MF8's puzzle has differences and you wouldn't want to lay claim to their innovation. All I really meant is that it would be nice for you to get a friendly personal warning from the source that this is coming, especially seeing as MF8 is a member here, so you can do what you need to do to finish your journey. And it has been `some journey`.
wwwmwww wrote:
Does anyone know if MF8 is following this thread? I really would love to start a positive dialog with them and I certainly don't want to come across as being upset with them over THEIR design.
I would love to see them do a Real Multi 5x5x5 as well as what they are doing, especially seeing as they probably have all the pieces.

I also love what they are doing, an interesting innovation to have different circles on different faces along with Crazying and such.

Cheers,
Burgo.

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 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ┬ęCarl Hoff October 23, 2010
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Burgo wrote:
I would love to see them do a Real Multi 5x5x5 as well as what they are doing, especially seeing as they probably have all the pieces.
Their smaller circle is smaller then mine so they are missing several pieces. The internal bandaging between layers and circles also appears different (as would be expecting in a crazy version) so I suspect the pieces they do have are very different from mine.

Carl

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 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ┬ęCarl Hoff October 23, 2010
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The replacement corner and the extra parts got here this past Tuesday. Everything was dyed yesterday. And I've started putting it together. I was filming the assembly outside and the sun has now set so here is the current state of the puzzle. Video will be up later...

Attachment:
Headway.png
Headway.png [ 902.6 KiB | Viewed 1159 times ]


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 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ┬ęCarl Hoff October 23, 2010
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That cross-sectional pattern looks like an Egyptian or Aztec themed puzzle. So beautiful :-)

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 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ┬ęCarl Hoff October 23, 2010
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Indeed.. I was mesmerized by that look.. one could hang that on the wall as art if it wasn't a puzzle half :)


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 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ┬ęCarl Hoff October 23, 2010
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It's looking insane!!!

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 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ┬ęCarl Hoff October 23, 2010
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It is together...
Attachment:
Assembled1.png
Assembled1.png [ 588.97 KiB | Viewed 885 times ]

Attachment:
Assembled2.png
Assembled2.png [ 530.45 KiB | Viewed 885 times ]

Attachment:
Assembled3.png
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And I have a video being uploaded here:
http://youtu.be/-sxqjjWBpjQ

So far I have two issue. First... how do I get the gunk off the surface left by the masking tape? I thought it would come off with IPA. It didn't. I've now also tried acetone and even that hasn't had much effect. Second... and this is more serious... I'll if you can figure it out from the pictures. It is explained in the video. I have 2 ideas on how to fix it (actually 3 ideas) but I'm not certain if they will work or not.

Carl

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 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ┬ęCarl Hoff October 23, 2010
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wwwmwww wrote:
It is together...
And I have a video being uploaded here:
http://youtu.be/-sxqjjWBpjQ

So far I have two issue. First... how do I get the gunk off the surface left by the masking tape? I thought it would come off with IPA. It didn't. I've now also tried acetone and even that hasn't had much effect. Second... and this is more serious... I'll if you can figure it out from the pictures. It is explained in the video. I have 2 ideas on how to fix it (actually 3 ideas) but I'm not certain if they will work or not.

Carl

It is truly amazing to see this finally together.
To fix the circle issue...can't you make the very central center pieces connected directly to the core rather than having them screw in? I don't see why not unless I'm missing something really obvious.
EDIT: Yea, I'm missing something obvious. :lol:
Perhaps...instead of an inner 3x3...you could try an inner circle 3x3. Then you could do what I described above.

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 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ┬ęCarl Hoff October 23, 2010
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http://googone.com/GG-Browse-Products/Goo-Gone-8oz

That for the tape residue.

It looks awesome, I can't wait to see the video.


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 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ┬ęCarl Hoff October 23, 2010
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Goo Gone uses a hydrocarbon solvent (mineral spirits). Use lighter fluid or something similar so you don't have to deal with the oily citrus in Goo Gone.

Next time use blue painters tape. Even that though leaves some marks but much less than what you show.

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 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ┬ęCarl Hoff October 23, 2010
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So great to see this in action Carl. Despite it not being exactly "finished" yet, I was so happy for you watching that video. Can't wait for more progress. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ┬ęCarl Hoff October 23, 2010
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You'll have to pull it apart and see where it's skipping around. Is it skipping around in the core? That's the only place I can imagine.. that's pretty drastic. But there's heaps of room to make the footing bigger. And it would only mean printing new shafts and core, and not the whole model. The friction will be less as it's broken in, perhaps try rubbing the rails together, back and forth while the puzzle is in pieces, to get it started?

EDIT: If the problem is higher up then you might just have to make the centre shaft (and centre layers) proportionally bigger. I agree though, a little extra play in the inner circle rails higher up might be advantageous too.

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 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ┬ęCarl Hoff October 23, 2010
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benpuzzles wrote:
It is truly amazing to see this finally together.
Thank you very much.
benpuzzles wrote:
To fix the circle issue...can't you make the very central center pieces connected directly to the core rather than having them screw in? I don't see why not unless I'm missing something really obvious.
Two problems with that idea.
(1) You wouldn't be able to attach the 3x3x3 face center piece that rotates on that axis... unless you printed it directly in place and then it would be rather lose.
(2) You'd have no way to tension the puzzle.
Brandon Enright wrote:
Use lighter fluid or something similar so you don't have to deal with the oily citrus in Goo Gone.
Any tips on where to get lighter fluid in volume? I've never smoked so have never really looked for the stuff.
Brandon Enright wrote:
Next time use blue painters tape. Even that though leaves some marks but much less than what you show.
Next time I'll try to put it together without any tape. I may use rubber bands at a few stages though.
Burgo wrote:
You'll have to pull it apart and see where it's skipping around. Is it skipping around in the core?
I know exactly where its turning even without taking it apart. Look at this cross section of the 3x3x3 arm and the 5x5x5 arm.
Attachment:
Problem1.png
Problem1.png [ 49.65 KiB | Viewed 826 times ]

I should have seen this before I ever had the parts printed and the truth is I did think of it before I put the puzzle together but by then I already had the parts so I was going to try with what I had regardless. The 3x3x3 arm is well attached to the core with its square foot. It isn't turning. I know this because its a very snug fit into the core and I couldn't turn this part by hand before putting the puzzle together. That and you see the 3x3x3 face center surface pieces push out (away from the 3x3x3 arm) during mid rotation. If you look close you can see this in the video at about 2 minute and 20 seconds in. Watch the pieces closest to the face center as I start that rotation. The are moving out and around the corners of the 3x3x3 arm. This is exactly why the friction is so high. These pieces are being pushed into the ring around them.

Here is the first step in fixing this design:

New 3x3x3 arm design.
Attachment:
Fix1.png
Fix1.png [ 147.37 KiB | Viewed 826 times ]


New 5x5x5 arm design.
Attachment:
Fix2.png
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What they look like together.
Attachment:
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And a cross section of that new assembly.
Attachment:
Fix3.png
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This will keep the face center from rotating. But I fear more then that is needed. With just this change I expect the pieces around the face center will still try to rotate and just be pushed into the ring even harder.

Other things I'm considering:
(1) Get the new arms printed to try it.
(2) Design a circular 3x3x3 arm that makes it easier to rotate and also design a tool that plugs into the indents on the surface that will make it easy to turn these circle centers on their own. That way I can break in these surfaces and then take it apart and replace the 3x3x3 arm with the new design above.
(3) Failing the above 2 ideas I think I would send everything to Brandon for tumbling. He has a huge backlog so that would result in a big delay but if it solves the problem I'd be happy waiting.

Beyond that I might be looking at a complete re-design. But aside from some smaller feet at that inner circle contact surface and maybe some larger fillets on those feet I'm not sure what else I could do and tumbling the current design should get me to about that same point anyways. I'll think about this some more before I go and order the new 3x3x3 and 5x5x5 arms I just designed. Actually I think I should go ahead and design the breaking in 3x3x3 arm and the tool I mentioned above as well.

Carl

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 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ┬ęCarl Hoff October 23, 2010
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I see it now, thanks for the time pointing it out , I looked so hard to see something bulging out in the video initially, but I couldn't find anything.

I thought that piece was attached more solidly, so now I see the fitting, I see the problem also.

I'd think about removing the fillets from the square shaft. From my experience, I'm pretty sure that will make a difference, and shouldn't affect catching. (Although it seems that the main part that will hold them in place is the head of the centre piece, when it's fixed properly).

It would still be better if that shaft was a bit wider proportionally. The E slice Inner edge feet skipping over the shaft is a part of the problem too, right? Maybe you'll get away with altering less components, because that's quite a big redesign.

EDIT: At the moment, that shaft is a `throwaway part` too isn't it? Before you print, you should hand modify it to simulate your intentions. Can you drill it and put a few metal pins in it? Can you superglue it? What can you do to brace it and see if that's enough? If you butcher it, and you still want it, you can always print one more V1 shaft with the new ones.

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 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ┬ęCarl Hoff October 23, 2010
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Great to see a video of the puzzle Carl, I', very happy to see it function as well as it does on the first attempt. If it wasn't for those darn things friction, manufacturing tolerances, Young's modulus ... then a puzzles designer's life would be a lot easier :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ┬ęCarl Hoff October 23, 2010
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Aww, such a dissapointment that it doesn't work as expected...
I feel really sorry for you Carl, I hope that you can resolve this without fully redesigning the puzzle...

It still looks awesome though, even with the error in functionality and the "gunk"!
Awesome to finally see it!!!

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 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ┬ęCarl Hoff October 23, 2010
PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2014 10:20 am 
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1NSAN3 wrote:
Aww, such a dissapointment that it doesn't work as expected...
rline wrote:
Despite it not being exactly "finished" yet, I was so happy for you watching that video.
From "so happy" to "such a disappointment"... I wasn't expecting such a bipolar reaction. Personally I'm right in the middle... maybe a step on the happy side myself. Let me explain. As Adam Savage has stated "Failure is always an option." This is true whenever you are trying something that has never been done before. And its from your failures that you learn the most. Look at Mythbusters... they air their failures and it still makes for good television. That said... I have NOT given up yet so don't count me down. This whole tread was about the process of making this thing and over coming its challenges. I could have worked on this off stage and not shown it till all the bugs were worked out and you guys would have never known all the little failures along the way. This reminds me of this image...
Attachment:
Fail.png
Fail.png [ 50.83 KiB | Viewed 656 times ]

1NSAN3 wrote:
I feel really sorry for you Carl, I hope that you can resolve this without fully redesigning the puzzle...
I played with the puzzle for about 2 hours last night (still with only 7 screws in it. The 5x5x5 layers are now turning great. Twenty times better then in the video above. It has had a few pieces pop on me now when I'm turning it very fast but they were easy to get back in and I think the popping issue would go away if I put the rest of the screws in. Seeing just how much the friction has dropped between the ring and the 5x5x5 layer while breaking it in I feel almost certain that once the surface between the ring and the central circle is broken-in and I have the redesigned parts this will work.

And a version two (while likely not a full redesign) has been planned since this one was first printed. I want to make the pieces more tumbling friendly. And there are a few pieces which I hollowed which are so thin or so small that its basically impossible to get the powered out of them. I can think of two pieces I want to make solid at the moment. While I'm doing this it would be easy to tweak the filleting on a few pieces and I'll likely take a close look at the feet between the central circle and the ring. Making them a bit smaller should also make the 3x3x3 corner piece stronger.

We will get there. And I'm still very much enjoying this process of sharing the failures along the way.
Carl

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 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ┬ęCarl Hoff October 23, 2010
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Burgo wrote:
I'd think about removing the fillets from the square shaft. From my experience, I'm pretty sure that will make a difference, and shouldn't affect catching. (Although it seems that the main part that will hold them in place is the head of the centre piece, when it's fixed properly).
Great suggestion. Thanks. Even if it does cause a little catching I'd rather have a puzzle that worked as designed.
Burgo wrote:
It would still be better if that shaft was a bit wider proportionally.
Making the central slice wider proportionally isn't really an option. This would cause several problems.
(1) The smallest piece in the puzzle (the smaller parts of the 5x5x5 T-Centers) would get even smaller. Even at the size they are now I think I'm going to have fun stickering them. I already feel like asking Eitan for more details on his recessed tile method.
(2) The 3x3x3 Corner pieces has some complicated geometry that is attached via thin stalks. These stalks would get even thinner if the central slice layer was any wider.
(3) The only way I see to make the central slice wider is to make the puzzle bigger but then it wouldn't be proportionally bigger.
Burgo wrote:
The E slice Inner edge feet skipping over the shaft is a part of the problem too, right?
Not certain I understand the question... what exactly do you mean by "E slice Inner edge feet"?

Carl

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 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ┬ęCarl Hoff October 23, 2010
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Can anyone recommend some free software for cropping video? I found this:
http://www.movavi.com/support/how-to/how-to-crop-video.html
It does what I want but leaves an annoying watermark on the cropped video with the free version.

Thanks,
Carl

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 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ┬ęCarl Hoff October 23, 2010
PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2014 7:14 pm 
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wwwmwww wrote:
Can anyone recommend some free software for cropping video? I found this:
http://www.movavi.com/support/how-to/how-to-crop-video.html
It does what I want but leaves an annoying watermark on the cropped video with the free version.

Thanks,
Carl

NCH Debut is a good software I used to use. It lets you crop the recording frame too.

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 Post subject: Re: Making the Real5x5x5 ┬ęCarl Hoff October 23, 2010
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I would like to see a picture of the puzzle in midturn while partially disassembled, so that I could try to diagnose the problem.

I suggest thickening the center slice, but you could also put grooves in the inner layer like a void cube, to make the centers link to the + pieces better.

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