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 Post subject: Re: How to solve the Geranium puzzle?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2013 2:18 am 
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TheCubingKyle wrote:
May we have a hint?

At this stage...no :lol: I'm keeping things under wraps. I want to convince myself that the whole method definitely works, and until I've solved it completely, I'm not convinced.
TheCubingKyle wrote:
And do you plan on making a video or text tutorial within the month?

YES! In fact, I plan on making it as soon as I possibly can. With me, puzzles that I'm working on tend to take over my life, and so I *need* to get this finished and tutorialised as soon as I can, just so I can return to semi-normal. And it's no good saying "I'll look at it in a few weeks" because I'll wake up tomorrow morning and not be able to stay away. :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: How to solve the Geranium puzzle?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2013 7:50 am 
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It works! It works! I solved it!!!! :D :D :D
(It may be difficult to tell but I'm unbelievably happy and very relieved...)
I think that means I might be the only person to have solved it, and without any computer or simulators. :mrgreen:

I rate this puzzle as hard as Eitan's Star. It's visually extremely challenging, and the constant overlapping circles never help. Often, one lapse in concentration will stuff everything up. It makes the latch cube look like child's play. Here are a few photos which will at least show the outline of how I solved it.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

First make all the circles turnable with the regular pentagons sitting correctly.
Attachment:
DSCF7877.JPG
DSCF7877.JPG [ 92.41 KiB | Viewed 3126 times ]


Next, release the 3 trapped triangles.
Attachment:
DSCF7878.JPG
DSCF7878.JPG [ 111.34 KiB | Viewed 3126 times ]


Next, place the spear pieces
Attachment:
DSCF7880.JPG
DSCF7880.JPG [ 89.68 KiB | Viewed 3126 times ]


Next, place the triangles on the outer edge
Attachment:
DSCF7881.JPG
DSCF7881.JPG [ 93.72 KiB | Viewed 3126 times ]


Next, place the centers pentagons, making sure the central one is correctly oriented.
Attachment:
DSCF7882.JPG
DSCF7882.JPG [ 97.42 KiB | Viewed 3126 times ]


Next, solve the remaining triangles until the last 3.
Attachment:
DSCF7883.JPG
DSCF7883.JPG [ 92.77 KiB | Viewed 3126 times ]


I couldn't get the 3 placed in their correct positions to cycle them home, so I solved one and left myself 2.
Attachment:
DSCF7885.png
DSCF7885.png [ 312.1 KiB | Viewed 3126 times ]


After probably 2 hours of thinking and trying to get the pieces placed in their correct positions, I finally figured out how to do it. The puzzle was an absolute mess after the 20 move setup. But after carrying out the 32 move 3-cycle and undoing the 20 move setup, I saw this:
Attachment:
DSCF7887.JPG
DSCF7887.JPG [ 88.86 KiB | Viewed 3126 times ]

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 Post subject: Re: How to solve the Geranium puzzle?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2013 8:16 am 
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WOW!!! I bow to you, respect!!


And congratulations :D

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 Post subject: Re: How to solve the Geranium puzzle?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2013 8:26 am 
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What a great achievement!
Congratulations and I can thoroughly understand how happy and relieved you feel :D :D :D

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 Post subject: Re: How to solve the Geranium puzzle?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2013 9:22 am 
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Location: In my study drooling over my puzzle hoard - Precioussssss!
This just proves that you're not human!!! :lol:

In a way you have actually put me off buying this puzzle - I originally decided not to because I didn't think I could solve it and I'm afraid that you have just confirmed it for me!! :shock:

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 Post subject: Re: How to solve the Geranium puzzle?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2013 9:36 am 
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Amazing work, I bet you wish you could bottle that feeling, when the last turn completes the puzzle, and sell it on Ebay :lol: It's frightening to think how such a simple looking puzzle can be so complex. Well done!

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 Post subject: Re: How to solve the Geranium puzzle?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2013 10:52 am 
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[quote="rline"]It works! It works! I solved it!!!! :D :D :D


[quote]

Congrats rline!! Especially for the fact that you dont use any computer help! Respect!

By the way - I dont understand why one should use a computer to solve a puzzle.

I.e. if I want to find the best move in a chess position it could take me hours. But if I can find the one brillant move I can be very proud of myself. A good chess program finds the same move in one second (or less). But that wouldnt satisfy me at all.
Maybe I just dont understand the concept of software support in the twisty puzzle world :-)

I am very happy that this new puzzle is so challenging. First I thought I dont buy it because it is no twisty puzzle. But rline showed that you can use the same concept to sove it. So for me it is a "twisty" puzzle now :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: How to solve the Geranium puzzle?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2013 12:01 pm 
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Hi rline ,

Congratulations and Respect !
Very great solving skill.


I recieved my geranium yesterday, but I fight with my Eitan Star.

Cheers,
Andrea


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 Post subject: Re: How to solve the Geranium puzzle?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2013 1:00 pm 
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No way no way no way no way!! Wow that is amazing! When you said you have bought the puzzle I was sure that the solution was near! REALLY expectig a tutorial !!!!! :happyface:

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 Post subject: Re: How to solve the Geranium puzzle?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2013 5:10 pm 
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Thanks so much everyone for your well--wishes. That really made my day :)

Puzzlemad wrote:
In a way you have actually put me off buying this puzzle - I originally decided not to because I didn't think I could solve it and I'm afraid that you have just confirmed it for me!! :shock:

Well remember that I haven't shown how I did it yet. You may well find (hint hint) that the sequences used are all just variants of EPS. :)

Gus wrote:
Amazing work, I bet you wish you could bottle that feeling, when the last turn completes the puzzle, and sell it on Ebay :lol: It's frightening to think how such a simple looking puzzle can be so complex. Well done!

Yes, that's true. It would be great to be able to recreate that feeling at will :lol:

Quote:
By the way - I dont understand why one should use a computer to solve a puzzle.

Well, my comments about computers were about the following.

1. The Circle Puzzles Manual mentioned how difficult these things were and that it may be very difficult to find algorithms without a computer. And also Leslie Le (the inventor) told me he had only solved it using a computer.

2. Often, with a difficult puzzle, I (and I guess many others) will use gelatinbrain or something similar to practice finding sequences without messing up the physical puzzle.

That's in a sense why this was such a rewarding and mind-killing experience for me. I knew there was nothing out there. And it was scrambled. So I had no choice!

doctor twist wrote:
I am very happy that this new puzzle is so challenging. First I thought I dont buy it because it is no twisty puzzle. But rline showed that you can use the same concept to sove it. So for me it is a "twisty" puzzle now :lol:

I'm still really undecided on whether it's actually a twisty puzzle. I think turny puzzle is better.

Eliasthecollector93 wrote:
No way no way no way no way!! Wow that is amazing! When you said you have bought the puzzle I was sure that the solution was near! REALLY expectig a tutorial !!!!! :happyface:

As soon as I can. It'll take a few days to do properly, and then with my internet connection probably a week to upload. It will be a long tutorial, that's for sure.

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 Post subject: Re: How to solve the Geranium puzzle?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2013 9:16 pm 
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I'll quote myself to point out an error I made earlier:
Quote:
These bits cannot detach from their adjacent piece.
Attachment:
geranium piece 3.png
geranium piece 3.png [ 132.19 KiB | Viewed 2993 times ]

Clearly, since I've worked out how to fix trapped bits, all of these bits can definitely be detached. In fact, I took a photo where all those bits are detached.
Attachment:
DSCF7889.JPG
DSCF7889.JPG [ 77.01 KiB | Viewed 2993 times ]


And here's one of the puzzle fully scrambled, ready for the tutorial Let's hope it works. :D
Attachment:
DSCF7891.JPG
DSCF7891.JPG [ 80.59 KiB | Viewed 2993 times ]

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 Post subject: Re: How to solve the Geranium puzzle?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 12:47 am 
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I'm increasingly interested in buying this puzzle

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 Post subject: Re: How to solve the Geranium puzzle?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 1:01 am 
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TheCubingKyle wrote:
I'm increasingly interested in buying this puzzle

You really should! I can't understand why everyone wouldn't want to have their brains destroyed by it :lol:

My tutorial is halfway filmed and edited...

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 Post subject: Re: How to solve the Geranium puzzle?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 2:23 am 
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Now it looks fully scrambled! On the tutorial could you show how to proper scramble those pieces? I never get a fully scramble!

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 Post subject: Re: How to solve the Geranium puzzle?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 2:35 am 
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Eliasthecollector93 wrote:
Now it looks fully scrambled! On the tutorial could you show how to proper scramble those pieces? I never get a fully scramble!

Hmmm. No, I can't, because most of the tutorial is already filmed. And although this will sound stupid, the way to properly scramble (without just trialling and erroring) is to reverse the solving method. and particularly for those triangles, that's what I did. Which means that once you know how to solve it, you'll easily be able to properly scramble it using the same techniques.

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 Post subject: Re: How to solve the Geranium puzzle?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 4:00 am 
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Congratulations and respect for your puzzle-solving capabilities and patience. I hope that after you release your tutorial, I'll be able to solve my Geranium, which stays scrambled several month already.


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 Post subject: Re: How to solve the Geranium puzzle?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 7:33 am 
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gal_eon wrote:
Congratulations and respect for your puzzle-solving capabilities and patience. I hope that after you release your tutorial, I'll be able to solve my Geranium, which stays scrambled several month already.

Thankyou. :) I also hope that. It would make me very glad to know that lots of geraniums were being solved after posting it. :lol:

I'm really happy to report that all filming for the tutorial is now complete, and most of it is processed. Tomorrow I hope to complete the processing, then export it, and finally upload to YT. All being well, there should be a tutorial available within 24-48 hours. 8-)

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 Post subject: Re: How to solve the Geranium puzzle?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 7:47 am 
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Rline, using your method, on average how many moves does it take to solve this puzzle?

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 Post subject: Re: How to solve the Geranium puzzle?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 8:08 am 
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Gus wrote:
Rline, using your method, on average how many moves does it take to solve this puzzle?

Oh boy...I have no idea. LOTS!

I mean, the triangle 3-cycle is 32 moves, plus some setups. Let's say there are 12 triangles to do at the end, and we can do them in 7 cycles. Each cycle let's average at 8+32+8=48. 48*7=336.

If it's fully scrambled, so that all the trapped pieces need to be freed, there are potentially 15 of them, and each "fix" is 26 moves plus potentially setups, let's call it 34 moves. 15*34=510. If it's not properly scrambled, there might be only 5 or so needing to be done. So we'll say between 170 and 510. We'll average it at 340.

Let's say 20-30 moves to make turnable circles.

Probably 80 moves to place spears into position.

Probably 100 moves to attach triangles to the outer rim.

30 moves to place centers.

I'm guessing...900???

Honestly, though, the concept of average is not overly useful because I've only done 2 solves. The first was yesterday, and the 2nd was today and can be seen in the upcoming tutorial. I guess someone could count the moves if they wanted. This puzzle is not for the faint-hearted...

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 Post subject: Re: How to solve the Geranium puzzle?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 8:28 am 
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Congratulations, rline! /thumb

BTW, might I point a link from verypuzzle.com to your solution when it is available? I used computer in a designer's view to test its potential complexity rather than finding a humanized solution, quite like the case in 333 cubes. I think there are very little chance people can come up with a (set of) formula which always leads to the God's number. I believe there's a clear distinct between computer aided search and manual method.

@Andrea, there are two kinds of distance between any pair of circles, let the smaller be x; the diameter of all five circles are identical, let it be y, then x/y=3/7. Wish this could be helpful whenever you need to address the detailed geometry of the design.


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 Post subject: Re: How to solve the Geranium puzzle?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 11:41 am 
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An impressive feat of analysis, rline. Congratulations! :mrgreen:

I notice you tend to keep the "stems" (thick parts inside the circles) in the "solved" orientation where they are all joined. I also found this very helpful. As the circles turn, the relationships between the exchangeable pieces of the circles (lenses) change. Keeping the stems joined fixes those relationships and makes hunting for algorithms a bit easier.

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 Post subject: Re: How to solve the Geranium puzzle?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 1:20 pm 
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Hi Leslie Le
Quote:
@Andrea, there are two kinds of distance between any pair of circles, let the smaller be x; the diameter of all five circles are identical, let it be y, then x/y=3/7. Wish this could be helpful whenever you need to address the detailed geometry of the design.


Thank you for this information. Now I understand the construction.


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 Post subject: Re: How to solve the Geranium puzzle?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 3:58 pm 
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Quote:
Congratulations, rline! /thumb

BTW, might I point a link from verypuzzle.com to your solution when it is available?

Thanks Leslie. Praise from the inventor always seems to carry slightly extra weight :) And by all means feel free to point a link to the tutorial.

Quote:
An impressive feat of analysis, rline.

Pete, (and anyone else) I'm curious what I should be calling those funny pieces. We've got the regular pentagons. I'm calling them pentagons. The triangles are obviously triangles. Then we've got stems. There's one remaining piece type. What's that one called? Is that the one you referred to as "spear"?

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 Post subject: Re: How to solve the Geranium puzzle?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 4:23 pm 
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rline wrote:
Quote:
Congratulations, rline! /thumb

BTW, might I point a link from verypuzzle.com to your solution when it is available?

Thanks Leslie. Praise from the inventor always seems to carry slightly extra weight :) And by all means feel free to point a link to the tutorial.

Quote:
An impressive feat of analysis, rline.

Pete, (and anyone else) I'm curious what I should be calling those funny pieces. We've got the regular pentagons. I'm calling them pentagons. The triangles are obviously triangles. Then we've got stems. There's one remaining piece type. What's that one called? Is that the one you referred to as "spear"?
I was going to go for botanical nomenclature, but after "stems", I just gave in to geometry. The intersection of two circles is called a "lens" (plural "lenses"). This is what moves when you do a basic 3-cycle. I used the term spear to describe a pentagon surrounded by 3 triangles, however this assembly doesn't move as an independent group, so I concluded that it is not so useful. Pentagons and triangles were my other two names.

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 Post subject: Re: How to solve the Geranium puzzle?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 5:06 pm 
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Pete the Geek wrote:
The intersection of two circles is called a "lens" (plural "lenses"). This is what moves when you do a basic 3-cycle. I used the term spear to describe a pentagon surrounded by 3 triangles, however this assembly doesn't move as an independent group, so I concluded that it is not so useful.

So unless I'm missing something, you didn't actually say what those irregular shaped pieces should be called. Are they the ones you called spears but decided not to call them spears and now they are nameless?

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 Post subject: Re: How to solve the Geranium puzzle?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 6:18 pm 
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It looks to me there are 5 different shapes in the geranium puzzle...

a) 6 regular (well regular, but pillowed) pentagons
b) 40 slightly isosceles triangles
c) 5 irregular oblong shapes with 5 sides (cannot leave their circle)
d) 5 irregular oblong shapes with 5 sides (can leave their circle but only just)
e) 15 irregular rounder shapes with 5 sides (can mix significantly)

I'm not sure what names you've used already but here's my suggestions (the closest, common shape name I could think of):

a) pentagons
b) triangles
c) stems
d) arches
e) crowns

It sounds like Pete was using the term "spear" to refer to a cluster of 4 pieces, just in case that was still causing confusion (it sounds like it's been cleared up though). Unfortunately, I don't think any of these pieces are correctly described with the word lens... Except for the triangles they are all intersections of 5 circles, not 2, right? :?:

Congratulations on the solve, by the way, rline! I have an idea of how to simulate this in a computer, but was waiting until I can hold a real one (Christmas!) until I gave it a full attempt. An unassisted solve is very impressive!

Peace,
Matt Galla

PS: I think the first (confirmed?) solver should get the right to name the pieces whatever he wants! What would YOU like the rest of us to call them? :D

PPS: Do you have any ideas on what types of orbits these things form? As far as the puzzle being in the correct shape goes, can every type of piece swap with every other piece of its type, or are there multiple orbits within a single piece type? I know pieces of type c) in my list above each have a unique orbit. Any other orbital restrictions that you observed?


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 Post subject: Re: How to solve the Geranium puzzle?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 11:18 pm 
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@rline: thank you and your continuous work has inspired me to open a page named "Solver's Delight"http://www.verypuzzle.com/index.php?route=information/information&information_id=15 to share solutions and delights from solver.

And... totally no need to feel stressed unless you have some final triangular pieces to work out. :wink: :wink:

About the naming of pieces, here's our internal form: triangle, pentagon, concave pentagon, short bar, long bar. :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: How to solve the Geranium puzzle?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 11:55 pm 
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Allagem wrote:
PS: I think the first (confirmed?) solver should get the right to name the pieces whatever he wants! What would YOU like the rest of us to call them? :D
Leslie Le wrote:
About the naming of pieces, here's our internal form: triangle, pentagon, concave pentagon, short bar, long bar. :lol:

Allagem wrote:
I'm not sure what names you've used already but here's my suggestions (the closest, common shape name I could think of):

a) pentagons
b) triangles
c) stems
d) arches
e) crowns

Well, to me, the problem with the naming is that 4 of the 5 piece types are (sort of) pentagons. I would prefer going with more descriptive names, and so I think your names (Matt) are great. They work for me! Of course in the video I've referred to pentagons, triangles, stems, "those bits" and "those bits". So the naming is more for the future, and also so I can refer to algorithms in the description of the video and here on the forum.

Leslie Le wrote:
@rline: thank you and your continuous work has inspired me to open a page named "Solver's Delight"http://www.verypuzzle.com/index.php?route=information/information&information_id=15 to share solutions and delights from solver.

Hey that's a great idea Leslie. I'm glad to have inspired you. 8-)

Leslie Le wrote:
And... totally no need to feel stressed unless you have some final triangular pieces to work out. :wink: :wink:

In the next post I think I'll outline my solution strategy. I haven't meant to deliberately keep it hidden, it's just that it's only been 2 days since I worked it all out.

As to the current state of the video, it's now uploading to YT. It's 33% done and there are 383 minutes remaining. I wasn't kidding when I said I had a slow upload speed. Also, I woke up at 4.40am this morning and decided to start exporting the video from my software. By 10.40am it was done. That's right. 6 hours. The video itself is over 2 hours. I make no apologies for that because I think a puzzle of this nature deserves a full and proper tutorial. So the entire solve is in the video. I'm still considering whether to make shortened versions of each part and use them in my blog post about it. I'll probably do that. So instead of the section on solving the last triangles showing all triangles being solved, I might just show one or two and then the endgame. Suggestions are welcome. :) (I will of course have timed links in the description so people can go to the part they want.)

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 Post subject: Re: How to solve the Geranium puzzle?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 3:24 am 
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How to Solve the Geranium Puzzle-TEXT ONLY

This is the solution outline I came up with. At the time of writing it's the only solution available, as far as I know. For the record, no simulators or computers were used. This was done by lots of thought and hard work, and at one stage I pretty much gave up on the puzzle. Thanks to Leslie Le for inventing and marketing this puzzle.

A link to a video tutorial showing a full solve will be in a future post, and as usual with me, the video will probably help you more than what's below. It will DEFINITELY make sense of why the algorithms below work.

It's too difficult at this stage to work out piece position designations, so I'm just including algorithms. If someone wants to tell me a sensible and simple piece notation I'll include them. I'm also not sure how to show different turns of the circle. For instance, some algs require a face to be turned 108* but others only 36*.

Piece Types
There are 5 distinct piece types, as designated in the picture below.
Attachment:
piece types.png
piece types.png [ 130.61 KiB | Viewed 2709 times ]


Circle Names
I've chosen to call the circles Up, Left, Right, DownLeft, and DownRight as shown in the picture below. Obviously this means that when I do algorithms, I have a stem pointing directly upwards.
Attachment:
circle names.png
circle names.png [ 130.86 KiB | Viewed 2709 times ]



Step 1: Make all circles turnable
a. Position stems
b. Position arches
c. Place pentagons correctly above arches (not next to stems).
L'(36) R' L(36) R and similar

The goal of this stage is to have all circles freely turning.


Step 2: Place triangles above crowns
R' L'(36) R L(36)
DL' (L R' L' R) DL
(L' DR L DR') (R' L R L') (DR L' DR' L)
L'(36) R' L(36) R


Step 3: Place crowns into outer rim
L R' L' R and similar

Some will need changing orbits.
(DL' L') (L R' L' R) (L DL) and similar


Step 4: Place triangles on outer rim, next to crowns.
(L R' L' R) DR (R' L R L') DR' and similar


Step 5: Place pentagons
(L R' L' R) DL' (R' L R L') DL and similar


Step 6: Place Remaining Triangles
The following 4 algorithms are all variants of the same thing.

From Up-Left, cycling downwards
L R' L' R
(DR L' DR' L) (R DL' R' DL) (L' DR L DR')
R' L R L'
(DR L' DR' L) (DL' R DL R') (L' DR L DR')

From Up-Left, cycling upwards
(DR L' DR' L) (R DL' R' DL) (L' DR L DR')
L R' L' R
(DR L' DR' L) (DL' R DL R') (L' DR L DR')
R' L R L'

From Up-Right, cycling downwards
R' L R L'
(DL' R DL R') (L' DR L DR') (R DL' R' DL)
L R' L' R
(DL' R DL R') (DR L' DR' L) (R DL' R' DL)

From Up-Right, cycling upwards
(DL' R DL R') (L' DR L DR') (R DL' R' DL)
R' L R L'
(DL' R DL R') (DR L' DR' L) (R DL' R' DL)
L R' L' R

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 Post subject: Re: How to solve the Geranium puzzle?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 5:24 am 
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rline wrote:
TheCubingKyle wrote:
I'm increasingly interested in buying this puzzle

You really should! I can't understand why everyone wouldn't want to have their brains destroyed by it :lol:

My tutorial is halfway filmed and edited...

I will watch the tutorial with interest and have read your list of algorithms but more than ever know that I won't be wasting $40 on this puzzle!

I buy my puzzles in at least the vague hope that I could solve at least a large part of it myself and I am certain from what I have read that I couldn't even begin to solve this one!

I am, however, in awe at your skills!!! :shock:

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 Post subject: Re: How to solve the Geranium puzzle?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 6:56 am 
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I've got some good news and some bad news. The video is uploaded. It goes for 2hrs 16mins. Between 1hr 6m 33s and 1hr 33m 51s, there is no sound. I don't know why this has happened but I will need to re-process (another 6 hours) and re-upload (another 10 hours) the video, once I figure out the problem. There's definitely sound on the original recording.

So I'm not officially releasing it yet, but for anyone who wants to watch it from the beginning up to the end of step 3, and then step 6, with sound, here it is: removed and replaced with proper one in next post (Heck, you can watch the whole thing if you want, you'll just have to imagine me speaking through steps 4 and 5)

Believe me, no-one is more frustrated with this than I am. Once I have an uploaded version with sound, I'll make it public...

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Last edited by rline on Tue Dec 17, 2013 4:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: How to solve the Geranium puzzle?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 7:17 am 
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My geranium and your video are tempting me right now but I need to study for the examns...
I watched 4 minutes of the video (the easy part on the puzzle) and I have to saythat the quality its great and easy to follow, and now I know how to proper scramble all the pieces!I hope soon I can say that I have solved it! Maybe we could make a list of people that has solved it like the eithan's star!
Thanks again!

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 Post subject: Re: How to solve the Geranium puzzle?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 4:19 am 
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I'm very happy to make public my Geranium Puzzle Tutorial video. :D

How To Solve the Geranium Puzzle!

Elias, you started the thread, so perhaps it might be beneficial to post a link to this post in the 1st post, so that newcomers don't need to read right through all 80 previous posts.

At around the 37 minute mark, I stuff things up a little. I've deliberately left it in the video, partly because I don't mind showing that I'm not a machine and make mistakes like anyone else but also because I realised it would give another look at getting the pentagons sitting correctly. In other words, another look at step 1. To be honest, I'm amazed that was the only real muckup in a 2 and a quarter hour solve...

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 Post subject: Re: How to solve the Geranium puzzle?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 6:07 am 
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This is the video I've been waiting for for so long and it comes out at 3 am my time D: Now I have at least twelve hours of sleeping and doing physical labor before I can even think to watch it!

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 Post subject: Re: How to solve the Geranium puzzle?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 6:37 am 
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I have started a solver list on the first post in this topic (by Elias) and I have added a link to rline's post above.

I'm looking forward to when I can put solver #2 to the list :wink:
Have fun!

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 Post subject: Re: How to solve the Geranium puzzle?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2013 10:14 am 
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Now that you're solved the Geranium, the next logical step would be Krystian's Disk. That is, if you're up for the challenge...

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 Post subject: Re: How to solve the Geranium puzzle?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2013 7:18 am 
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rline wrote:
These bits can leave their circles but only just. They are easily put into position.



Image

hhmmm ...
Attachment:
geranium.jpg
geranium.jpg [ 243.01 KiB | Viewed 2419 times ]



I solved it with rline's method until all pentagons/centers are correct. Then I solved some triangles. After this I made a mistake and the puzzle was scrambled again. Now I scrambled it to start with a new solving session. The new situation looks unsolveable. The "arches" left her circles and are flipped in the circles. The blue arch is out of his circle. All is blocked.
The purple and blue arches make the problem. "stems" and "pentagons" are correct.
This puzzle is a horrible monster.


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 Post subject: Re: How to solve the Geranium puzzle?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2013 4:29 pm 
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Andrea wrote:
The new situation looks unsolveable. The "arches" left her circles and are flipped in the circles. The blue arch is out of his circle. All is blocked.
The purple and blue arches make the problem. "stems" and "pentagons" are correct.
This puzzle is a horrible monster.

Yes the puzzle is a horrible monster. :) But actually all is not blocked. You have 2 circles which can freely turn. The big problem, to me, with this situation, is that there's no way I (or anyone else) can setup your situation to have a play with it. And it's so difficult to see what turning particular circles would do to make other circles able to turn or not. In my experience with this puzzle, situations which seem impossible are normally just a few turns away. It's just that the nature of the puzzle makes them seem impossible.

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 Post subject: Re: How to solve the Geranium puzzle?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2013 5:54 pm 
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rline wrote:
The big problem, to me, with this situation, is that there's no way I (or anyone else) can setup your situation to have a play with it.
What about taking the puzzle apart and assembling it to replicate the position?

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 Post subject: Re: How to solve the Geranium puzzle?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2013 6:22 pm 
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Gus wrote:
rline wrote:
The big problem, to me, with this situation, is that there's no way I (or anyone else) can setup your situation to have a play with it.
What about taking the puzzle apart and assembling it to replicate the position?

Well I guess technically that's possible. But I just don't really want to do that :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: How to solve the Geranium puzzle?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 25, 2013 12:51 pm 
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rline wrote:
The big problem, to me, with this situation, is that there's no way I (or anyone else) can setup your situation to have a play with it.


Yes.
rline wrote:
Gus wrote:
rline wrote:
The big problem, to me, with this situation, is that there's no way I (or anyone else) can setup your situation to have a play with it.
What about taking the puzzle apart and assembling it to replicate the position?

Well I guess technically that's possible. But I just don't really want to do that :lol:


Yes, I agree. I want not disassemble this puzzle.

Such possitions are only solveable with jumbling, I think.
In my example are 2 circles turnable but after turning one, much pieces are messed up.
I solved this part it with try and error.


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 Post subject: Re: How to solve the Geranium puzzle?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 26, 2013 7:51 am 
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I didn't find 3cycles and setup moves.

Attachment:
monster.jpg
monster.jpg [ 179.84 KiB | Viewed 2261 times ]


The relation of Geranium to Eitan star is like Eitan star to Pyraminx.

(Edit)
I was able to reduce it to two visual exchanged pieces.


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 Post subject: Re: How to solve the Geranium puzzle?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2013 2:39 am 
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Andrea wrote:
I didn't find 3cycles and setup moves.

Hi Andrea

I can confirm with you that the setup moves for the final 3-cycles are very hard. Without actually setting it up to try it, this is what I would do first.

Hold with blue stem facing up.
Do R DL' R' DL. This will store the red and yellow pieces shown below down the bottom out of the way.
Attachment:
monster 1.png
monster 1.png [ 271.47 KiB | Viewed 2203 times ]

Do U' DL U DL'. This will move the purple piece shown to where the yellow piece is.
Attachment:
monster 2.png
monster 2.png [ 271.31 KiB | Viewed 2203 times ]

Do R DL' R' DL. This will move the red and yellow pieces from the bottom, into position for the 3-cycle. So you should now have a purple piece (yellow pentagon) at the top, a yellow piece (green pentagon) in the middle and a red piece (multicoloured pentagon) at the bottom. You can then carry out the 3-cycle from the left going upwards to cycle them, and solve 2 of the 3.

(DR L' DR' L) (R DL' R' DL) (L' DR L DR')
L R' L' R
(DR L' DR' L) (DL' R DL R') (L' DR L DR')
R' L R L'

Once that's done, you can undo setups ( DL' R DL R' DL U' DL' U DL' R DL R' ) and have a look at the remaining 4 pieces. Assuming all that works, I'm happy to try and help with those if I'm able. :)

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 Post subject: Re: How to solve the Geranium puzzle?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2013 10:38 am 
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Hi rline,

Thank you for your work. Good for understanding moving the pieces and slots. The picture with painting is very usefull.
I tried a similar solution way yesterday evening before I read your answer.
I had transformed the cycles/pieces to different orbits with the intention to get easier puzze states.
Some times I had permuted a piece from outer rim.
After many permutations I get a easy swap:
Attachment:
mg.jpg
mg.jpg [ 169.98 KiB | Viewed 2163 times ]


This was easy. DR' U DR U' and the 3 cycle.

all:

after many days with hours of puzzling :

I Solved my Geranium puzzle !

:D :)
the hardest puzzle which I solved ever.


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 Post subject: Re: How to solve the Geranium puzzle?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2013 10:53 am 
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Congratulations Andrea! :D

I've put you as #2 onto the first post of this thread.

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 Post subject: Re: How to solve the Geranium puzzle?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2013 11:40 am 
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I am happy to be psychorigid here: this puzzle is not rotational, thus this is not for me a Rubik's cube, and not a twisty puzzle; so I have not to solve it !
I am just a collector of black Rubik's puzzle !! :lol:
Ouf !


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 Post subject: Re: How to solve the Geranium puzzle?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2013 5:47 pm 
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Andrea wrote:
I Solved my Geranium puzzle !

:D :)
the hardest puzzle which I solved ever.

Let me be the 2nd to congratulate you :) I think I'm agreeing more and more that this is harder Eitan's Star. I'm still undecided whether it should be classed as a twisty puzzle. Whatever, it's a very very difficult puzzle. :shock:

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 Post subject: Re: How to solve the Geranium puzzle?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2013 6:11 pm 
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Wow.. congratulations!! :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: How to solve the Geranium puzzle?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2013 6:23 pm 
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Hi rline,

rline wrote:
I'm still undecided whether it should be classed as a twisty puzzle.



In my opinion it's a twisty puzzle.
Look to this simulator. "Magic Tile"
http://www.twistypuzzles.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=24876
I used it only to simulate the Bauhinia dodecahedron.

A polyhedron is projectable to a sphere and with riemann projection and mobius transformations to the infinite plane.
(mobius transformation)
Then all faces are circles.

The Geranium has only circles. It's acts like a twisty puzzle with jumbling.


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 Post subject: Re: How to solve the Geranium puzzle?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2013 4:30 am 
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Sure, but the beauty of twisty puzzle is in the fact that it has a 3D geometrical shape. If it's projected in a plane, why not, but for me, it lost the twisty puzzle definition and the magic.
I did not say that this puzzle is not difficult, because it looks so, and I am very impressed you and rline could have solved it; I am just saying that for me this is not a Rubik's cube I like to collect, see and scramble.
It is for me something like the 14-15 puzzle (sliding and solvable !)


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