Online since 2002. Over 3300 puzzles, 2600 worldwide members, and 270,000 messages.

TwistyPuzzles.com Forum

It is currently Fri Jul 25, 2014 6:03 pm

All times are UTC - 5 hours



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 11 posts ] 

Is the Bértikal some kind of copycat?
this is purely coincidence 11%  11%  [ 1 ]
the Bértikal is inspired by the MazeRoll but has only dexterity elements 11%  11%  [ 1 ]
this looks a copy to me 67%  67%  [ 6 ]
other (explain) 11%  11%  [ 1 ]
Total votes : 9
Author Message
 Post subject: Anyone knowing Oscar Encina / Bértikal puzzle?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2013 3:43 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2011 3:38 pm
Location: Eindhoven, The Netherlands
Hi all,

I've asked this question also at the Puzzle-Place forum, but nobody seems to have the Bértikal puzzle in their collection or knows Mr. Oscar Encina as a puzzle designer.

As this is a far larger community, I'd like to ask the same question here.
Does anyone know this puzzle and/or Oscar Encina? And please fill out the poll also
Attachment:
File comment: MazeRoll versus Bértikal
MazeRoll%20vs%20Bertikal%20comparison.jpg
MazeRoll%20vs%20Bertikal%20comparison.jpg [ 194.84 KiB | Viewed 1070 times ]


Youtube videos: MazeRoll and Bértikal

_________________
Maybe I'm amazed... Mfave's puzzle shop | Burgh Lock trick-lock, Splinter's amazing Shapeways shop, my E-book, maze overview page (Dutch)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Anyone knowing Oscar Encina / Bértikal puzzle?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2013 4:47 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2012 6:33 am
Location: Belgium
Hi Splinter, when did you first publish your MazeRoll? The Bértikal is on Youtube since May 2013.

_________________
Lucie

http://1002-puzzles.blogspot.be/
For sale : 1more Puzzle - Triangle & 1more Puzzle - Cubylon


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Anyone knowing Oscar Encina / Bértikal puzzle?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2013 6:20 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2011 3:38 pm
Location: Eindhoven, The Netherlands
mixer wrote:
Hi Splinter, when did you first publish your MazeRoll? The Bértikal is on Youtube since May 2013.

Yes, I checked that date also. Including the date the Bertikal home website came online (also May 2013).

The MazeRoll was announced at first here at TP, almost exactly a year ago (2. December 2012).
The registration of the MazeRoll design ("looks") date also from December 2012. (and the registration is active)

Thanks for asking,

Splinter

_________________
Maybe I'm amazed... Mfave's puzzle shop | Burgh Lock trick-lock, Splinter's amazing Shapeways shop, my E-book, maze overview page (Dutch)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Anyone knowing Oscar Encina / Bértikal puzzle?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2013 9:44 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 04, 2013 4:50 am
Location: The Netherlands
Splinter,

If you lived in America, you could just sue him immediately for millions of dollars, unfortunately, this is NOT America... :wink:

_________________
- Eric


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Anyone knowing Oscar Encina / Bértikal puzzle?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2013 10:59 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2010 11:12 am
Location: Hong Kong/Beijing
Seems the same idea for a puzzle. But I'll say may be you two just have the same idea? I'm not sure about this.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Anyone knowing Oscar Encina / Bértikal puzzle?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 10:42 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2011 3:38 pm
Location: Eindhoven, The Netherlands
1NSAN3 wrote:
If you lived in America, you could just sue him immediately for millions of dollars

Also in Europe design rights can be very strong (else it would not make sense to register something).

I'm not directly thinking of suing, but that also stays an option.
Might the Bértikal become popular I can always try to give a party a license for "the better puzzle" ;-)

- Splinter
PS Curious that no-one yet seems to know the designer of the Bértikal as puzzle designer. Anyone?

_________________
Maybe I'm amazed... Mfave's puzzle shop | Burgh Lock trick-lock, Splinter's amazing Shapeways shop, my E-book, maze overview page (Dutch)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Anyone knowing Oscar Encina / Bértikal puzzle?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 10:47 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 28, 2010 10:26 am
Have you tried contacting him via youtube comments?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Anyone knowing Oscar Encina / Bértikal puzzle?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 1:19 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2011 3:38 pm
Location: Eindhoven, The Netherlands
Zzupler wrote:
Have you tried contacting him via youtube comments?

Not yet, I want to first get more insight into the matter (and the opinion of the community).
For instance, if it turnes out to be a well-known designer than it's more likely that a similar idea occurs. And that this puzzle at launch was notified e.g. to Twisty-puzzles on itself. And things would probably be sorted out (here).

A friend of mine informed about the origin of the puzzle (besides of a question regarding shipment), but did not receive an answer on that part.

I hope to get some more response. And see what I'll do (or not). See my earlier message that I always can launch my design broader. If this puzzle has a success as mass product, why not have a design that is protected have success? (= guarantee for a large puzzle manufacturer regarding both success as well as protection for the exact puzzle)

Thanks for the idea about commenting on Youtube!
A small step that I might take as next one.

- Splinter

_________________
Maybe I'm amazed... Mfave's puzzle shop | Burgh Lock trick-lock, Splinter's amazing Shapeways shop, my E-book, maze overview page (Dutch)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Anyone knowing Oscar Encina / Bértikal puzzle?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 6:50 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2011 3:38 pm
Location: Eindhoven, The Netherlands
My conclusions (so far):
- Seems like no-one has the Bértikal in his/her collection or knew about it; thus this is not (yet) a world-wide success
- The designer is unknown in the community
- Doubt still exists whether this puzzle/game is fully original

Pro-Bértikal:
- The MazeRoll cannot have been in the physical hands of the designer of the Bértikal before its release (around May 2013), as I know where the few copies of the MazeRoll were before that time
- The Bértikal is more a game (I think) than a puzzle; it’s not incorporating the partially blocked rotations the MazeRoll has (so, it’s not an exact copy)
- From the region of the designer/manufacturer I’ve not seen any visits to Mfave.nl between the dates of the release of the MazeRoll (2. December 2012) and the release of the Bértikal (around May 2013). In my opinion, if you intend to copy something, you check for as much information as possible and certainly check the original website
- This designer and/or the manufacturer dares to come into an insecure market with a mass-produced puzzle/game
- If the Bértikal is indeed copied from or inspired by the MazeRoll, than this was done in a relatively short period (approx. 5 months) for mass-production (creating puzzle, moulds etc.)


Contra-Bértikal:
- It is very typical that the Bértikal has the same amount of disks/cylinders as the MazeRoll; both have 4 (not 3 or 5) that can be oriented each in 2 ways. Also the size is quite similar (round 5 x 18 cm versus round 4.5 cm x 14 cm)
- When I registered the design of the MazeRoll I checked a large amount of –both older and newer- patents and design registrations regarding maze and labyrinth puzzles and games. Doing this, I did not find any similar puzzle to the MazeRoll. And it’s very typical that there is one now, shortly after the release of the MazeRoll
- Oscar Encina is not (yet) known as puzzle designer from earlier puzzles. Making a mass-produced Bértikal in a ‘spontaneous (?) move’ is quite a typical (and risky) move when not being familiar in the puzzle/game community
- Also quite typical is the profile in the internet newspapers of designer Oscar Encina as ‘businessman’, with a company manufacturing the puzzle being (from origin) in the sector ‘real estate’


- Splinter

_________________
Maybe I'm amazed... Mfave's puzzle shop | Burgh Lock trick-lock, Splinter's amazing Shapeways shop, my E-book, maze overview page (Dutch)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Anyone knowing Oscar Encina / Bértikal puzzle?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 3:57 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2011 3:38 pm
Location: Eindhoven, The Netherlands
Small update:

Bértikal is looking for investors (you should invest 50k or more euro, but as I understand from Google translate you then also have the opportonity to get some money directly from a kind of salary). I would not advise you to invest, because:
A) When they would be succesful, they would have the money themselves; your 'extra' money is most likely not the turning point for them to be succesful
B) Stated is they have a patent. (Anyone that can find its number: please contact me. It could not be found yet with the designer's name. And it is not on the product). There is a high risk (regarding any investment from people not knowing) that I've prior art (in the form of a registered design also showing their concept). Any prior art can technically void their patent if that is from a later submission date.

Source: bertikal.com/noticias.php

After I acquired the Bértikal myself, I can tell that:
- it's a purely dexterity puzzle
- it has stunning looks (the colourful version)
- turning is very loose / shaky (I prefer a more tight fit)
- I do respect that they dared to invest in some moulds: the core is made by means of injection moulding. The cilinders are injection moulded and then the maze paths are milled into that(!)
- it's highly surprising that there is any profit made from their low sales prices (or maybe there's no profit, which I fear). Price is very low compared to manufacturing, assembly and packaging costs (and promotion costs)

Now that I've the actual item myself, I've contacted the designer directly and I'm waiting for a response.


Thanks for reading,

Splinter
Maybe to be continued

_________________
Maybe I'm amazed... Mfave's puzzle shop | Burgh Lock trick-lock, Splinter's amazing Shapeways shop, my E-book, maze overview page (Dutch)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Anyone knowing Oscar Encina / Bértikal puzzle?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 3:04 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2011 3:38 pm
Location: Eindhoven, The Netherlands
Just found out I've prior art.

The patent of the Bértikal can be found at: http://worldwide.espacenet.com/searchRe ... acenet.com

Date of submission: 12.04.2013
Date of publication: 08.05.2013

As far as I can understand it wants to patent a cilindrical maze. Guess what the MazeRoll is.

And this was registered as design early December 2012.


As the other party does not acknowledge the infringement, I have made a Facebook page to claim my design as the original Bértikal Original, for sale here
Also I have started a blog about the 'negotiation' / tactics I'm confronted with: Bértikal blog

Attachment:
File comment: Bértikal Original BKO
Bertikal Original BKO.jpg
Bertikal Original BKO.jpg [ 54.23 KiB | Viewed 280 times ]

Attachment:
File comment: Bertikal Original Blue
Bertikal Original Blue.jpg
Bertikal Original Blue.jpg [ 134.57 KiB | Viewed 280 times ]

_________________
Maybe I'm amazed... Mfave's puzzle shop | Burgh Lock trick-lock, Splinter's amazing Shapeways shop, my E-book, maze overview page (Dutch)


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 11 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  

Forum powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group