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 Post subject: Super OctoCube
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 10:52 pm 
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Here is a quick video showing off my first twisty puzzle design, the Super OctoCube. The Super OctoCube is a face turning cube that features 45 degree rotations rather than being restricted to 90 degree rotations. The interior mechanism is based off a Nonconvex Great Rhombicuboctahedron and took some time to get right. I will post a better video and pictures when I have it dyed and stickered. All comments and suggestions are greatly appreciated :mrgreen:

-Zem

Video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83dSYADnR0w
(Sorry, the audio got delayed during the upload process)

Pictures:

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Last edited by Zem on Sat Nov 09, 2013 3:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Super OctoCube
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 11:16 pm 
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This is VERY good for a first design. Congratulations!
I can only imagine trying to solve it... :shock:

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 Post subject: Re: Super OctoCube
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 11:19 pm 
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benpuzzles wrote:
This is VERY good for a first design. Congratulations!
I can only imagine trying to solve it... :shock:


I can't even get it back into a cube :shock: I can't imagine the level of difficulty once it is stickered. Thanks! I plan on entering this in TSA competition this year in the 3D printing 11 parts and up category. I'm only slightly over that at 153 3D printed parts lol. Like I said, sorry about the poor quality photos and videos. Better stuff will be up in the near future.

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 Post subject: Re: Super OctoCube
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 11:28 pm 
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Great puzzle. very good turning :)

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 Post subject: Re: Super OctoCube
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 11:29 pm 
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It's an unbandaged Bermuda Cube.


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 Post subject: Re: Super OctoCube
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 11:35 pm 
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Bram wrote:
It's an unbandaged Bermuda Cube.


I hadn't really thought of that but I guess that's right.

grigr wrote:
Great puzzle. very good turning :)


The turning was really nice from the moment I put in the last screw but the only problem is just making sure everything is aligned properly before the turn, otherwise pieces can catch. I'm sure with some breaking in though this won't be as much of an issue.

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 Post subject: Re: Super OctoCube
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 11:54 pm 
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Very, very cool. This is the same puzzle that was discussed in mf8's thread here. I pushed for the names to be HyperCube and the HyperNova for the dodecahedral equivalent, names which I still stand by. :lol: My idea is to have a "Hyper" nomenclature where cuts are added to all faces of pre-existing traditional puzzles to allow what once were mid-turn positions to be their own moves, but that's just me.

Bram wrote:
It's an unbandaged Bermuda Cube.

I wouldn't agree, seeing that the Bermuda series isn't much beyond a variable bandaged Fisher Cube of sorts, but perhaps I'm misunderstanding what a Bermuda Cube is. I haven't actually played with one, just seen pictures. :D Bandaging, as far as I understand it, is removing cuts and/or limiting traditional moves. Adding additional cuts and functionality isn't necessarily "unbandaging" a puzzle but creating a whole new puzzle.

Edit: Zim, at a second glance, is it possible for this cube, in its solved state, to turn on its edges? :shock: Because that would be awesome

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Last edited by Modern-Day Warrior on Thu Nov 07, 2013 12:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Super OctoCube
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 12:09 am 
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Modern-Day Warrior wrote:
Very, very cool. This is the same puzzle that was discussed in mf8's thread here. I pushed for the names to be HyperCube and the HyperNova for the dodecahedral equivalent, names which I still stand by. :lol: My idea is to have a "Hyper" nomenclature where cuts are added to all faces of pre-existing traditional puzzles to allow what once were mid-turn positions to be their own moves, but that's just me.

Bram wrote:
It's an unbandaged Bermuda Cube.

I wouldn't agree, seeing that the Bermuda series isn't much beyond a variable bandaged Fisher Cube of sorts, but perhaps I'm misunderstanding what a Bermuda Cube is. I haven't actually played with one, just seen pictures. :D Bandaging, as far as I understand it, is removing cuts and/or limiting traditional moves. Adding additional cuts and functionality isn't necessarily "unbandaging" a puzzle but creating a whole new puzzle.


I could call it the Hyper OctoCube :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Super OctoCube
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 12:20 am 
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Modern-Day Warrior wrote:
Edit: Zim, at a second glance, is it possible for this cube, in its solved state, to turn on its edges? :shock: Because that would be awesome


I guess it wouldn't have to necessarily be solved either, or maybe. I don't know, I'm confusing myself. That's why it's a HyperCube! :lol:

Zem wrote:
I could call it the Hyper OctoCube :wink:

That works too! (Though I'm still dead-set on HyperCube. Just ignore my stubbornness. It's your puzzle, after all. :P )

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 Post subject: Re: Super OctoCube
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 12:32 am 
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Modern-Day Warrior wrote:
Modern-Day Warrior wrote:
Edit: Zim, at a second glance, is it possible for this cube, in its solved state, to turn on its edges? :shock: Because that would be awesome


I guess it wouldn't have to necessarily be solved either, or maybe. I don't know, I'm confusing myself. That's why it's a HyperCube! :lol: )


This puzzle in only face turning. However, the base geometric shape of a Nonconvex Great Rhombicuboctahedron would allow for an edge and corner turning puzzle as well. I've played around with it a bit more and have no luck whatsoever just getting it back into cube form so stickers might not even be necessary for this to be an extreme challenge. I would only recommend this puzzle to hardcore solvers. I'm beginning to think it might be borderline impossible to be honest but I'll have to wait and see. Hopefully I can have it up on Shapeways for sale sometime next week. I need to make some minor adjustments such as hollowing out the core a bit more and hollowing out the corner pieces which should help with the price. Thank you all so much for the help along the way. This wouldn't have happened otherwise. I'm actually thinking about changing the name to a Hyper Cube now but I still wish to give credit to Pitcher for make the step before this.

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 Post subject: Re: Super OctoCube
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 1:46 am 
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Does this puzzle also function as a mixup cube or is it bandaged in that aspect?

The ultimate puzzle: this+mixup cube+DECETH. It would look the same :twisted:

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 Post subject: Re: Super OctoCube
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 7:15 am 
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rubikcollector123 wrote:
Does this puzzle also function as a mixup cube or is it bandaged in that aspect?

The ultimate puzzle: this+mixup cube+DECETH. It would look the same :twisted:


No. A mixup mechanism would not work in this cube as it is based of the edges and centers sliding around corners that are for the most part in a fixed position. Although the dimension ratio between corners, edges, and centers is the same, edges and centers cannot switch places, however corners and edges can.

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 Post subject: Re: Super OctoCube
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 7:25 am 
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Modern-Day Warrior wrote:
Bram wrote:
It's an unbandaged Bermuda Cube.

I wouldn't agree, seeing that the Bermuda series isn't much beyond a variable bandaged Fisher Cube of sorts, but perhaps I'm misunderstanding what a Bermuda Cube is. I haven't actually played with one, just seen pictures. :D Bandaging, as far as I understand it, is removing cuts and/or limiting traditional moves. Adding additional cuts and functionality isn't necessarily "unbandaging" a puzzle but creating a whole new puzzle.


Take this puzzle and glue some pieces together. You can achieve any of the Bermuda cubes. Therefore, it's an unbandaged Bermuda cubes.

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 Post subject: Re: Super OctoCube
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 8:21 am 
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Wow! I thought I would never see this! I guess you beat MF8 to it. I look forward to seeing/solving this puzzle at a certain cubing competition in January. Anyways, my mind is blown. Also, will this be on Shapeways anytime soon?

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 Post subject: Re: Super OctoCube
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 8:21 am 
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That is really cool! Isn't Dayan going to mass produce something like that?Image

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 Post subject: Re: Super OctoCube
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 8:35 am 
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Sorry, I meant mf8.

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 Post subject: Re: Super OctoCube
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 10:34 am 
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themathkid wrote:
Modern-Day Warrior wrote:
Bram wrote:
It's an unbandaged Bermuda Cube.

I wouldn't agree, seeing that the Bermuda series isn't much beyond a variable bandaged Fisher Cube of sorts, but perhaps I'm misunderstanding what a Bermuda Cube is. I haven't actually played with one, just seen pictures. :D Bandaging, as far as I understand it, is removing cuts and/or limiting traditional moves. Adding additional cuts and functionality isn't necessarily "unbandaging" a puzzle but creating a whole new puzzle.


Take this puzzle and glue some pieces together. You can achieve any of the Bermuda cubes. Therefore, it's an unbandaged Bermuda cubes.

That's rather silly. By that logic a 6x6 is an "unbandaged" 3x3, or even a 2x2. In the Bermuda cube, corners cannot take the place of edges and vice versa. They only appear to because of the funky shape. Also, by that logic, this is just an "unbandaged" regular 3x3, since the pieces could just be glued together to get a traditional Rubik's Cube.

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 Post subject: Re: Super OctoCube
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 5:26 pm 
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Modern-Day Warrior wrote:
That's rather silly. By that logic a 6x6 is an "unbandaged" 3x3, or even a 2x2.
Modern-Day Warrior wrote:
Also, by that logic, this is just an "unbandaged" regular 3x3, since the pieces could just be glued together to get a traditional Rubik's Cube.

*shrug* I would agree that a 6x6x6 is an unbandaged 3x3x3. I'm not saying it's necessarily a meaningful or interesting statement, but it is true. If you find it "silly" then I encourage you to provide a more rigorous definition of "unbandaged." But I will say this - it would be unwise to disagree with Bram on anything puzzle related :-p

Modern-Day Warrior wrote:
In the Bermuda cube, corners cannot take the place of edges and vice versa. They only appear to because of the funky shape.

The only reason corners cannot take the place of the edges is because of the bandaging :-p

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Last edited by themathkid on Thu Nov 07, 2013 11:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Super OctoCube
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 7:11 pm 
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Here are some pictures of what it looks like scrambled with stickers:

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Here is a new lengthy and better video showing off the turning quality, the shapeshifting, and the external(as well as the case of internal) bandaging/jumbling with the cube after a poor attempt at stickering it. Please check it out!:

http://youtu.be/cwE3_z6pUuE

I really have no clue to solve it currently and despite many attempts have been unable to find algorithms that work. I've never had a puzzle with non-uniform shapeshifting so I'm not sure if there are any out there for this type of puzzle. I'd love to know if it is actually physically possible to solve or not. After a day of turning the puzzle the actual quality of the turning has vastly improved and it is really enjoyable to mess around with. I hope to have the puzzle available on shapeways next week for purchase as well for anyone who is interested in buying it and I'd love to know if you are. Please check out the video and leave any comments here.

Regards,
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 Post subject: Re: Super OctoCube / HyperCube
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 7:49 pm 
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I'm absolutely sure that it is physically possible to solve. You scrambled it from a solved state, right? And I might be able to get this on Shapeways soon.

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 Post subject: Re: Super OctoCube / HyperCube
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 8:57 pm 
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Congrats on the GREAT first design. Keep up the great work.

Now what happens if MF8 releases theirs? Would either be considered a KO? I think "no" but I don't think this exact situation has happened before.

Carl

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 Post subject: Re: Super OctoCube / HyperCube
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:06 pm 
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wwwmwww wrote:
Congrats on the GREAT first design. Keep up the great work.

Now what happens if MF8 releases theirs? Would either be considered a KO? I think "no" but I don't think this exact situation has happened before.

Carl


I'm not sure. I really think it comes down to the inner mechanism and wether they are similar or not. I've had this idea for a puzzle since I got into cubing back in 6th grade but have not had the resources or skill to make it up until now. All MF8 has shown up to this point in an outer shell and no inner mechanism proving that their design actually functions. If the mechanism is the same then technically MF8's would be a knockoff.

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 Post subject: Re: Super OctoCube
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 10:15 pm 
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themathkid wrote:
Modern-Day Warrior wrote:
That's rather silly. By that logic a 6x6 is an "unbandaged" 3x3, or even a 2x2.
Modern-Day Warrior wrote:
Also, by that logic, this is just an "unbandaged" regular 3x3, since the pieces could just be glued together to get a traditional Rubik's Cube.

*shrug* I would agree that a 6x6x6 is an unbandaged 3x3x3. I'm not saying it's necessarily a meaningful or interesting statement, but it is true. If you find it "silly" then I encourage you to provide a more rigorous definition of "unbandaged." But I will say this - it would be unwise to disagree with Bram on anything puzzle related :-p

Modern-Day Warrior wrote:
In the Bermuda cube, corners cannot take the place of edges and vice versa. They only appear to because of the funky shape.

The only reason corners cannot take the place of the edges because of the bandaging :-p


I still say it's silly. You yourself say it's not a meaningful or interesting statement. Here's why I think so: Why do you call this an unbandaged Bermuda cube and not an unbandaged Rubik's Cube, as I also suggested? To me, that's because an the Bermuda Cube series is just a peculiar bandaging of a Rubik's Cube, because it blocks certain traditional moves from being done yet is functionally the same. An unbandaged Bermuda Cube is a Rubik's Cube. I call it silly because assuming that everything is some kind of unbandaging of everything else (as you say, you agree that a 6x6 is an unbandaged 3x3), then you inevitably run into the problem of several puzzles at a time overlapping that definition and it becomes convoluted. If you accept that this puzzle is an unbandaged Bermuda Cube, you also have to accept that it's an unbandaged Rubik's Cube, which is why I say that both assertions are essentially meaningless and this is just a puzzle all on its own. I think if you're going to make the statement that it's an unbandaged whatever, you're the one that needs to provide a more rigorous definition of the word unbandaged. Additional cuts that can be glued together isn't enough. How Bram is suddenly thrown in there... Whatever. :roll:

Regarding the possibility of a KO, I say nope nope nope. If mf8 produces this it is NOT a KO. Considering they already had a working print of the dodecahedral equivalent of this puzzle, I think it's safe to say that they had a good idea of the mechanism they would use on the cubic version.

Zem, perhaps it would be prudent to hold off putting this puzzle on shapeways and contact mf8 (or wait for them to post here), that way you will know that they can't copy your mechanism, because it's also possible that they don't yet have a working mechanism in mind. However, if they show their design and it has similarities to yours (and even if it's identical!) I don't think it's fair to label either puzzle a KO, seeing as we know that both were developed independently from each other. It's happened before.

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 Post subject: Re: Super OctoCube / HyperCube
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 10:22 pm 
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Zem wrote:
If the mechanism is the same then technically MF8's would be a knockoff.
Not necessarily... they may have a patent or patent application which predates your design. If they do I believe it would be easy to prove you didn't have access to it so it would be a case of independent invention and I believe both would be ok. The closest example to this happening before that I can think of is Eitan's Star. See this thread:

http://twistypuzzles.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=21049

Turns out Eitan had designed it before them (or at least presented it before them) here:

http://twistypuzzles.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=18959

I don't believe MF8 was aware or Eitan's puzzle before they made theirs and I believe its been stated that the two mechanisms are different. Yet, MF8 was willing to recognize Eitan as the first successful designer and allowed him to name their puzzle and he was given credit. It was something I didn't think they had to do but they certainly got a lot of respect and good karma by doing so. And I don't think it cost them much more then giving Eitan some free samples. I think it was a win-win for everyone. Maybe the same thing will happen here. I'm just not sure. Maybe MF8 will stop presenting ideas before they are finished. Maybe that is part of their strategy now, show the designs you want to produce and let a designer here at twisty puzzles figure out how to make it and give them the naming rights. I sort of doubt that was their intent but it might not actually be that bad of an idea if it was.

Regardless you made a great puzzle and I expect it to be a fun and positive experience to see where it leads. As this is just your first puzzle, I suspect this is just the first of many.

Carl

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 Post subject: Re: Super OctoCube
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 10:49 pm 
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Modern-Day Warrior wrote:
How Bram is suddenly thrown in there... Whatever. :roll:
Bram is welcome to post here and have his opinion. As are you. I see his point and I also understand yours. Personally I don't feel its something worth arguing over so I hope I'm misreading the tone here. I think all Bram meant was this is the simplest puzzle from which all the Bermuda Cubes could be made by simple bandaging (glueing neighboring pieces together). Remember the Bermuda Cubes are actually a family of cubes.
Image
and there is certainly a geometrical relationship between these puzzles and the Super OctoCube. At least that is how I took his statement.
Modern-Day Warrior wrote:
Regarding the possibility of a KO, I say nope nope nope. If mf8 produces this it is NOT a KO. Considering they already had a working print of the dodecahedral equivalent of this puzzle, I think it's safe to say that they had a good idea of the mechanism they would use on the cubic version.
Oh I agree. If anything as I pointed Zem to MF8's image it could be argued that he copied their idea. Still they hadn't presented a mechanism nor a working cubic puzzle so I feel he is totally ok in coping their idea. There is some subjectivity to the KO definition though so I'd be curious to hear the sites stance in this one but I personally feel both are perfectly ok.
Modern-Day Warrior wrote:
Zem, perhaps it would be prudent to hold off putting this puzzle on shapeways and contact mf8...
That may be good advice. If MF8 already has a patent and they were so inclined this might get you in hot water. I highly doubt that would happen but it would seem the polite thing to do would be to contact them and see if they had any concerns or objections.

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 Post subject: Re: Super OctoCube / HyperCube
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 10:57 pm 
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Ok then. So I almost made a complete octagon on the top face but now the entire top layer except for 1 turn is internally bandaged. So, I was looking into seeing if I could remove said bandaging but from what I've seen it would require modifications to the two pieces shown below that would A) cause the puzzle to be less stable and B) cut the smaller piece off of it's internal base c) extra smaller internal pieces would become necessary. So I'm going to view this more as a feature of the cube than a hinderance but this bandaging does make the cube harder in some instances when the cube is very scrambled. I may attempt to fix this before I release the final version but I'll have to see it it is feasible or not. Would the cube with its current internal bandaging bother anyone in particular? I demonstrate it here in the second video: http://youtu.be/cwE3_z6pUuE?t=4m16s

Here is the almost octagonal face:
Image

Here are how the pieces would have to be cut to allow the red face to turn:
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 Post subject: Re: Super OctoCube
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 11:24 pm 
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Modern-Day Warrior wrote:
To me, that's because an the Bermuda Cube series is just a peculiar bandaging of a Rubik's Cube, because it blocks certain traditional moves from being done yet is functionally the same. An unbandaged Bermuda Cube is a Rubik's Cube.

You cannot cut a Bermuda cube down to a Rubik's cube, nor can you bandage a 3x3x3 into any Bermuda cube. The defining feature is the large triangle centers that fundamentally differentiate the two puzzles. They are cousins, certainly, as the Super Octo proves, but neither can be bandaged into the other.

Modern-Day Warrior wrote:
I think if you're going to make the statement that it's an unbandaged whatever, you're the one that needs to provide a more rigorous definition of the word unbandaged. Additional cuts that can be glued together isn't enough.

See Oskar's definitions of "classical" bandaging and unbandaging. Bandaging is straightfoward, but unbandaging is not discussed so much. Saying a 6x6x6 is an unbandaged 3x3x3 might technically be correct [might - I'm not sure - perhaps the better word in this case is "superset of"], but it is meaningless as the 3x3x3 is not considered a bandaged puzzle. The Bermuda cubes are considered bandaged puzzles [not doctrine], so it does make sense to discuss an unbandaging.

Modern-Day Warrior wrote:
How Bram is suddenly thrown in there... Whatever. :roll:

A) Bram was the one who first said it was an unbandaged Bermuda cube [the one you quoted] :-p
B) I would put Bram among the top minds in the Twisty Puzzle community. His knowledge and experience carry weight.

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 Post subject: Re: Super OctoCube
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 11:30 pm 
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wwwmwww wrote:
Modern-Day Warrior wrote:
How Bram is suddenly thrown in there... Whatever. :roll:
Bram is welcome to post here and have his opinion. As are you. I see his point and I also understand yours. Personally I don't feel its something worth arguing over so I hope I'm misreading the tone here. I think all Bram meant was this is the simplest puzzle from which all the Bermuda Cubes could be made by simple bandaging (glueing neighboring pieces together). Remember the Bermuda Cubes are actually a family of cubes.

Heh, not being disrespectful if it came off that way. I meant that my comments have nothing to do with Bram personally.

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 Post subject: Re: Super OctoCube
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 11:47 pm 
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themathkid wrote:
Modern-Day Warrior wrote:
How Bram is suddenly thrown in there... Whatever. :roll:

A) Bram was the one who first said it was an unbandaged Bermuda cube [the one you quoted] :-p
B) I would put Bram among the top minds in the Twisty Puzzle community. His knowledge and experience carry weight.


I know, see my above post. I think you're taking this the wrong way. Simply disagreeing with someone isn't the same as disrespecting someone, no matter how highly you may regard them.

As you point out, I understand how it could be seen as "unbandaged," only because the definition of unbandaging is sufficiently vague enough to allow it to be, the same way it could be an unbandaged Rubik's Cube as well, or the same for a 6x6 to 3x3 and all higher-order puzzles. Like I said, I still just think it's silly to consider all extra cuts as unbandaging, as you run into the problem I mentioned in my above post.

Edit: Also, I realize one can't physically bandage a traditional Rubik's cube into the Bermuda variations, but I still consider it a bandaging of the Rubik's cube as it creates stored cuts while maintaining essentially the same mechanism of corners, edges, and 3 axes.

So, even under my understanding, one could take this puzzle and bandage it to create the Bermuda cubes, true, but it in itself is not an unbandaging of the Bermuda cubes. Yes that sounds contradictory, only because I think unbandaging requires a stricter definition than the one it has now.

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 Post subject: Re: Super OctoCube / HyperCube
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 12:14 am 
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So I think I may have figured out a way to make the completely unbandaged version on this puzzle although I'll need to modify the radius of the ball core and split several pieces. The main thing I'm worried about is stability. Here is a picture of the cuts that need to be made to the existing inner mechanism:

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So while I work on this fully unbandaged version, would anyone be interested in purchasing the puzzle shown in the earlier pictures as is?

P.S. Although a Bermuda cube could be made by bandaging this, I don't feel that this is an unbandaged Bermuda cube.

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 Post subject: Re: Super OctoCube
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 12:51 am 
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Modern-Day Warrior wrote:
Edit: Also, I realize one can't physically bandage a traditional Rubik's cube into the Bermuda variations, but I still consider it a bandaging of the Rubik's cube as it creates stored cuts while maintaining essentially the same mechanism of corners, edges, and 3 axes.
"Consider" it all you like. It's not. I suspect this kind of attitude about vocabulary lies at the core of this entire conversation.

Modern-Day Warrior wrote:
As you point out, I understand how it could be seen as "unbandaged," only because the definition of unbandaging is sufficiently vague
Modern-Day Warrior wrote:
Like I said, I still just think it's silly to consider all extra cuts as unbandaging, as you run into the problem I mentioned in my above post.
Modern-Day Warrior wrote:
I think unbandaging requires a stricter definition than the one it has now.

Again, if you don't like the definition Oskar has provided, I encourage you to brainstorm your own definition to clarify and correct the silliness you are so troubled by. As a base, I give you this: "If puzzle Y can be bandaged into puzzle X, then X can be unbandaged into Y." Please modify if you do not agree or feel that I have left anything out. But for goodness sake move this to a new topic or PM if you insist on continuing this pointless discussion on established vocabulary.

Sorry for hijacking the thread, Zem. I am done.

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 Post subject: Re: Super OctoCube / HyperCube
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 12:59 am 
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:lol: I didn't realize I had touched such a nerve. If discussion bends you out of shape that much then I suggest you PM me personally. I don't see any reason not to discuss these things when any new puzzle comes out, seeing as any unique puzzle is going to have to be understood. Honestly all I've done here is argued my position and asked for clarification on why you consider extra cuts unbandaging and I think raised some good points, and all I've gotten in return is condescending textbook tapping. Tells me more about you than it does "established vocabulary."

Simply saying "it's not" because Bram or Oskar say so isn't an understanding of the vocabulary on your part either. Simply insisting isn't educating.

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 Post subject: Re: Super OctoCube / HyperCube
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 1:35 am 
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So I've decided that I am going to be releasing this version of the cube as the Super OctoCube and then release the fully unbandaged version in maybe a month under the title of the Hyper Cube. Does that sound like it would work? Of course I am going to contact MF8 before any of this becomes official but was just wondering about you guys' opinions on this.

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 Post subject: Re: Super OctoCube / HyperCube
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 2:13 am 
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Zem wrote:
So I think I may have figured out a way to make the completely unbandaged version on this puzzle although I'll need to modify the radius of the ball core and split several pieces. The main thing I'm worried about is stability.
What do you mean by completely unbandaged? The 45-degree turning Rubik's cube is known to jumble and can never be fully unbandaged.

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 Post subject: Re: Super OctoCube / HyperCube
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 2:24 am 
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bmenrigh wrote:
Zem wrote:
So I think I may have figured out a way to make the completely unbandaged version on this puzzle although I'll need to modify the radius of the ball core and split several pieces. The main thing I'm worried about is stability.
What do you mean by completely unbandaged? The 45-degree turning Rubik's cube is known to jumble and can never be fully unbandaged.


I mean that the long quadrilateral pieces that go in between the corners and edges and the inner pieces can have additional cuts that will allow for more turning opportunities while scrambling and solving the puzzle. Currently there are points where the internal mechanism is the reason for the bandaging and I want to remove that so the bandaging is all external and not caused by a lack of a few extra cuts. This can become frustrating while solving because it may appear like you can turn a layer when in reality you cant (See 4:15 in my second video). I believe this will help to keep the internals from bandaging. You can see the extra cuts I want to put as seen before here:

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 Post subject: Re: Super OctoCube / HyperCube
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 2:58 am 
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I think that the discussion about what this cube is, is very interesting.. Why only discuss it two members of the forum? I always see big discussions and this one seems like something personal

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 Post subject: Re: Super OctoCube / HyperCube
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 8:39 am 
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It seems like adding those cuts would create some reeelly tiny pieces that might cause some big lockups. Though maybe not. I'm no designer.

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 Post subject: Re: Super OctoCube
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 11:05 am 
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12354q wrote:
That is really cool! Isn't Dayan going to mass produce something like that?


12354q wrote:
Sorry, I meant mf8.

yes!

SunCube I
Attachment:
102.jpg
102.jpg [ 22.03 KiB | Viewed 5532 times ]


SunCube II
Attachment:
103.jpg
103.jpg [ 24.42 KiB | Viewed 5532 times ]


http://bbs.mf8-china.com/forum.php?mod= ... tid=100083

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Last edited by MF8 on Fri Nov 08, 2013 11:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Super OctoCube
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 11:19 am 
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MF8 wrote:
12354q wrote:
That is really cool! Isn't Dayan going to mass produce something like that?


12354q wrote:
Sorry, I meant mf8.

yes!

SunCube I
Attachment:
102.jpg


SunCube II
Attachment:
103.jpg


Oh my god! There's already a prototype!!!!!!!


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 Post subject: Re: Super OctoCube / HyperCube
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 11:28 am 
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"SunCube" huh? Guess I just have to accept defeat... :lol: Although I suppose it makes sense since my "Hyper" designation wouldn't technically apply to the second version. (I still think it would have made a cool name. :wink:) Cool though. Guess that answers the KO question. Although Zem, I imagine this doesn't have the extra cuts you're considering.

mf8, correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm assuming the second version doesn't allow face-turns? (And as soon as I get my hands on it, I'm turning it into a face-turning rhombic dodecahedron. :twisted: )

Edit: Ooooo, and the more I look at version II, I wonder... Does it allow turns when the edges are turned 90°? Technically it should, but those turns could also be blocked by the mechanism.

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 Post subject: Re: Super OctoCube / HyperCube
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 11:34 am 
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Modern-Day Warrior wrote:
...

mf8, correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm assuming the second version doesn't allow face-turns? (And as soon as I get my hands on it, I'm turning it into a face-turning rhombic dodecahedron. :twisted: )


SunCube II doesn't allow face-turns.

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 Post subject: Re: Super OctoCube / HyperCube
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 11:48 am 
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I knew there was a cut on this puzzle that allowed edge turns. It looks so cool! I hope to own one soon!

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 Post subject: Re: Super OctoCube / HyperCube
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 11:54 am 
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Now what would really be intense is a puzzle that combines the two versions, allowing face-turning, edge-turning, and then also allowing edges and centers to be interchangeable like Oskars Mixup. :shock: Do want.

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 Post subject: Re: Super OctoCube / HyperCube
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 12:02 pm 
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MF8 wrote:
SunCube I

SunCube II
Very interesting. The SunCube I appears to already be made in injection molded plastic. It's probably safe to assume there was a 3D printed prototype first. Yet Zem presented a working puzzle first. Who does TP recognize as the inventor? Maybe that's a mute point if MF8 has a patent. I still feel that its safe to say neither is a KO but things are getting complicated. And I didn't see the SunCube II coming... these will make a very nice set.
Zem wrote:
Currently there are points where the internal mechanism is the reason for the bandaging and I want to remove that so the bandaging is all external and not caused by a lack of a few extra cuts.
I'm not sure this will remove ALL of your internal bandaging. I haven't checked but I would expect you are likely to find additional internal bandaging pop up after you've opened up this "first order" internal bandaging. I may very well be wrong (as I said I haven't checked) and even if I'm right (I hope I'm not) this shouldn't be a reason not to follow your plans. That is a double negative so, don't take this as me telling you to stop.

Carl

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 Post subject: Re: Super OctoCube / HyperCube
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 4:20 pm 
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Ugh. So what to do now? I wasn't aware that MF8 was producing this design so I'm guessing I can't put it up on shapeways now? This feels like the Eitan's Star situation again.

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 Post subject: Re: Super OctoCube / HyperCube
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 5:31 pm 
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Zem wrote:
Ugh. So what to do now? I wasn't aware that MF8 was producing this design so I'm guessing I can't put it up on shapeways now?
If you ask MF8 and they say go ahead I don't see why you couldn't. Though I'm not sure there is much point. Cost wise the MF8 one I would expect to be more affordable and I would think most of your potential customers would simply wait on the MF8 one. That said... I highly doubt the MF8 one is unbandaged so I would still continue with your plans. I wouldn't expect MF8 would have any objections to that.
Zem wrote:
This feels like the Eitan's Star situation again.
Eitan had one thing going for him that you don't. MF8 hadn't given any indication that they might be working on the Eitan Star puzzle at the time Eitan presented his. Here MF8 had released that one image but it had been some time ago so it wasn't publically know if they had given up on it, if they were still working on it, or what.

I'd say contact MF8 and see if they want to work with you. I'd say be friendly and non-adversarial and who knows what might happen. Maybe you can work with them to make a SunCube 3 which is your unbandaging idea.

Carl

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 Post subject: Re: Super OctoCube / HyperCube
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 6:00 pm 
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wwwmwww wrote:
Zem wrote:
Ugh. So what to do now? I wasn't aware that MF8 was producing this design so I'm guessing I can't put it up on shapeways now?
If you ask MF8 and they say go ahead I don't see why you couldn't. Though I'm not sure there is much point. Cost wise the MF8 one I would expect to be more affordable and I would think most of your potential customers would simply wait on the MF8 one. That said... I highly doubt the MF8 one is unbandaged so I would still continue with your plans. I wouldn't expect MF8 would have any objections to that.
Zem wrote:
This feels like the Eitan's Star situation again.
Eitan had one thing going for him that you don't. MF8 hadn't given any indication that they might be working on the Eitan Star puzzle at the time Eitan presented his. Here MF8 had released that one image but it had been some time ago so it wasn't publically know if they had given up on it, if they were still working on it, or what.

I'd say contact MF8 and see if they want to work with you. I'd say be friendly and non-adversarial and who knows what might happen. Maybe you can work with them to make a SunCube 3 which is your unbandaging idea.

Carl


I've contacted them via PM and hopefully something can be worked out.

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 Post subject: Re: Super OctoCube / HyperCube
PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 2:24 pm 
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Ok so I contacted MF8 and they stated they have had the design since 2006 but it is perfectly fine if I sell mine on shapeways as it was designed separately by me. From looking at the sides of the pieces presented in the pictures above, I think out pieces might be slightly different or in another arrangement that I have seen while assembling mine. So hopefully I will have the design up for sale on Shapeways on Monday for anyone is interested and look forward to seeing if MF8 makes a mass produced version of theirs at some point in the future.

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 Post subject: Re: Super OctoCube
PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 9:10 pm 
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Regarding the earlier bandaging/unbandaging argument, I have some proposed definitions.

Bandaging: Restricting the turns of a puzzle that would be allowed by the core mechanism. In a bandaged cube, you can state that it is a bandaged 3x3 because the mechanism logically allows each edge and corner to exist individually. A cuboid bandages when the pieces that are extended past the core mechanism are no longer adjacent to other extensions, and now no longer part of a fully cyclical mechanism. Basically, nonextended pieces are blocking the path that the extensions demand.

Unbandaging: Creating new cuts to allow a puzzle to operate fully based on the logical cuts of the original mechanism. The Skewb+2x2 has visible cuts that are turnable until you shaoe-shift and jumble, and then are blocked internally. This puzzle has been unbandaged by creating internal cuts to allow logical turns based on the original cuts that are invisibly bandaged. A 6x6 is NOT an unbandaged 3x3 because the 3x3 mechanism does not logically allow these additional layers.

A 6x6 can be bandaged into 3x3 functionality, yes. But requiring certain layers to turn together is only an external restriction. If you took apart a 6x6 bandaged into 3x3 functionality, you would see where the edge wings and centers would logically be able to separated and turned on individual layers. A normal 3x3 has no insinuation that it could be turned into a 6x6 based solely on its mechanism.

So. Is the Hyper Octocube an unbandaged Bermuda Cube? I don't have much experience with the Bermuda Cubes but I say no. The mechanism has nothing to do with bermuda cubes other than their functionality can be emulated by bandaging turns. But this is in the same way a 6x6 can be bandaged into a 3x3 but not vice-versa. It's like rectangles and squares definition. A Bermuda mechanism could NOT sustain the amount of cuts and turns as this puzzle, and therefore a Bermuda cube cannot be cut to allow the puzzle to operate fully based on the logical cuts of the hyper octocube.

Make sense?

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 Post subject: Re: Super OctoCube
PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 10:36 pm 
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TheCubingKyle wrote:
Regarding the earlier bandaging/unbandaging argument, I have some proposed definitions.


This conversation was ended for a reason. Please move this to a new topic or PM if you wish to continue the conversation. This thread has been hijacked plenty already.

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