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 Post subject: Blue shapeways puzzles?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 10:42 am 
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Hi all,
I had an idea that I was going to dye some of my puzzles blue last night, and the result was this. Please tell me your thoughts!


Letti.


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 Post subject: Re: Blue shapeways puzzles?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 10:48 am 
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Hmmm...it doesn't look blue to me. Did you already dye the puzzle black before you dyed it blue?

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 Post subject: Re: Blue shapeways puzzles?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 11:27 am 
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Dyeing WSF black is easy, you just keep on dyeing until it's very very black. When dyeing other colours, especially dark ones, it is very easy to dye it too long and it just looks black. My advice it to use quite a dilute solution of dye and keep on dyeing until it is the colour you want. You can always add a little more dye as necessary - remember, it is easier to add dye than to remove dye :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Blue shapeways puzzles?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 12:39 pm 
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What kind of dye did you use? I've not been very happy with the RIT dyes and am about to try Jacquard acid dyes. Just curious if you are using one of these or something else.
Gus wrote:
You can always add a little more dye as necessary - remember, it is easier to add dye than to remove dye
I wasn't happy at all when dyed the colored parts of my first Multi Gear Cube kit with RIT dye. All the parts came out way too dark... though some colors were better then others. However I was able to get colors I could live with simply by reboiling the parts in water. The red parts for example I think I must have boiled like 10 times and each time enough dye would come out of the parts to turn the water blood red. Though even after that the red was a very dull red when sat side-by-side with some parts Oskar had dyed with Jacquard acid dyes. His colors were much more vibrant.

Carl

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 Post subject: Re: Blue shapeways puzzles?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 1:44 pm 
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I suppose the Jacquard dyes which are designed for nylon must be better, or maybe Oskar just has the chemical processing techniques of Heisenberg :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Blue shapeways puzzles?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 7:49 pm 
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This was a RIT dye.

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 Post subject: Re: Blue shapeways puzzles?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 1:55 am 
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While my failing vision prevents me from commenting on how the color has aged, I remember being quite displeased with the results I got when using Rit Dye on my third Hex Crystal Prototype and much preferred the finish I got using multi-colored sharpie.

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 Post subject: Re: Blue shapeways puzzles?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 4:49 am 
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I use Jacquard Acid Dye by Dharma Trading. Note to soak the pieces in clean water (I use tap water) for a while before dying, otherwise the dye won't hold. I have tried soapy water, but that does not make any difference, other than the effort to get all the soap out of the part again, so I do not recommend it. I have tried adding salt to the dye, again with not difference other than the need for extra washing to get the salt out of the model (which crystallizes at the surface of the pieces and looks bad).

See the picture below for color reference.
-Red: 609 Bright Scarlet
-Yellow: 602 Bright Yellow
-Green: 629 Emerald
-Dark blue: 621 Sky Blue (Primary)
-Light blue: 624 Turquoise (Primary)
-Pink: 608 Pink (Primary)
-Orange: 605 Pumpkin Orange
-White: none
Do not forget to add white vinegar, following the instructions. Despite the name "acid dye", you have to add the dye yourself.
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I have noticed no strong dependencies of the dye-to-water or dye-to-white-vinegar ratio. Only if there is too much dye that doesn't fully dissolve, then the pieces get dye stains (which you can rinse off). Even with little dye, you get a full solid color, until you have used up most dye from the bath.

Each of the colors has its own idiosyncrasies.

Bright Yellow, Emerald and Turquoise "bleed". The come nicely-looking out of the dye bath, but then start to discolor. This is caused by the dye being made of multiple components, and because of the trapped powder (and water) inside hollowed pieces. The different components travel at a different rate through the drying nylon in a process called chromatography. I solve that by putting the pieces in the oven at 150 degrees Celcius to boil the water out. This process is not without risk. If you made your walls too thin and have trapped powder and water behind the wall, then the stream pressure could deform the wall. After that, rinse and possibly repeat.

Bright Scarlett has the property that it boils like milk, i.e. it immediately spills over the edge of your pan. I have had quite a few messy Bright Scarlett accidents. I tried 618 Fire Red, but 609 Bright Scarlet is better and brighter.

Bright Yellow spatters a lot. You need to keep a lid on that color, or otherwise your furnace becomes covered with yellow spatter. I have also tried 601 Sun Yellow (Primary), which does not bleed, but the resulting yellow is just a bit too pale to my taste.

I tried many greens, but only Emerald gives a good solid green result.

Sky Blue is my favorite color from a dyeing-process point of view. It always results in the same consistent color, also between dye batches.

Pumpkin Orange gets way to saturated if you dye for the recommended 20 minutes. I use 20 seconds (!) instead. Make sure that the dye is boiling when you dip, and get the pieces out in one go.

I have done some "undercooking" and "overcooking" experiments with Bright Yellow and Turquoise. 15 minutes is insufficient, you need the required 20 minutes. One the other hand, except it does not matter for any of the dyes if you use 20 minutes, 30 or more.

Do NOT use 639 Jet Black. It is no good, as it becomes a purplish gray. I use Dylon 8 Black instead. The good thing about this black is that you can boil as long as you want, and the black (nearly) always comes out the same. An occasional correction with a sharpie marker is needed, which may have to do with the 3D-printing process.

I recycle all dye bath (except black), as they can be reused many times without any effect to the color quality. The reason that I do not recycle black, is that Dylon 8 is more sensitive to dye depletion. Also, I have a cheap local source.

Enjoy!

Oskar

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Last edited by Oskar on Sun Oct 06, 2013 11:18 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Blue shapeways puzzles?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 6:11 am 
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Wow, that's a lot of work you've put in to get the desired results. When I use Rit + vinegar, I just simmer until I achieve the desired colour, then rinse and air dry. I have never observed this bleed effect, although so far most of my coloured (non-black) parts have been quite small. But I am about to do some larger pieces in multiple colours, so we'll see how that goes.

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 Post subject: Re: Blue shapeways puzzles?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 7:16 am 
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Has anyone checked the effect of adding bleach to over-dyed puzzles?

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 Post subject: Re: Blue shapeways puzzles?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 9:28 pm 
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Oskar wrote:
Each of the colors has its own idiosyncrasies.
Thank you SO much for all this info Oskar. This is exactly what I'm after. I now have my first samples of Jacquard Acid Dye in hand and I've been spending the weekend getting supplies. I'm aware of the instruction on the dharmatrading site. Do you mind if I ask you some specifics?
http://www.dharmatrading.com/dyes/jacquard-acid-dyes.html?lnav=dyes.html
and
http://www.dharmatrading.com/techniques/tubdye/the-tub-washing-machine-vat-bucket-dye-method.html

(1) You mention "clean water". Is regular tap water what you use? Or is something like filtered or deionized water recommended?
(2) Do you use Synthrapol or Professional Textile Detergent in your pre-wash or post-rinse of the parts?
(3) Anything you add to the dye bath aside from dye? Like salt? vinegar? Citric Acid? or Calsolene Oil? If yes, can you give details on your ratios?
(4) Even if you just use dye, any tips on the dye to water ratio you use? Does it vary with the number or size of parts you want to dye?
(5) Aside from Orange where your recommend 20 seconds... do you use the recommended time of 20 minutes for the others? I understand Sky Blue is insensitive to boiling time but at what point do you "over-cook" the others?
(6) Do you save and re-use dye baths or do you make a fresh batch each time you dye pieces.

I think that's it. As far as black I use black RIT dye and have been very happy with the results so far. It's just the colored dyes where RIT dye falls short.

Thanks,
Carl

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Last edited by wwwmwww on Mon Oct 07, 2013 12:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Blue shapeways puzzles?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 9:46 pm 
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Gus wrote:
I have never observed this bleed effect.
I believe this is due to Oskar's method of trapping powder inside his parts. It adds weight but it does cause some bad side effects. I use salt in my black RIT dye bath when I dye parts. When I've dyed Oskar's prints I've noticed small white spots (what I assume are salt crystals) form on the parts sometimes long after they have been dyed. Its easy enough to clean up but they seem to come back sometimes even after many cleanings. The next time I dye one of Oskar's prints I think I'll try it without salt and see if I have the same problem. I don't think I will. Its just that I've never seen this issue on my own prints or others where they are hollow and don't trap powder. In the very near future I should know if I see any bleed effect with these acid dyes on my own puzzles. I'm guessing I won't but with Oskar's kind advice I should be prepared either way.
KelvinS wrote:
Has anyone checked the effect of adding bleach to over-dyed puzzles?
No. But I have used bleach to clear the parts pre-dying them. My guess is bleach may help remove the dye faster from over-dyed puzzles but simply re-boiling the parts will likely get you to the same point. If I end up in that space again I can test that but my goal is to avoid over doing it in the first place.

Carl

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 Post subject: Re: Dyeing shapeways puzzles?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 11:21 pm 
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wwwmwww wrote:
Do you mind if I ask you some specifics?
Carl, I have updated my post with answers to your questions.

Oskar

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 Post subject: Re: Blue shapeways puzzles?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 2:59 am 
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wwwmwww wrote:
I use salt in my black RIT dye bath when I dye parts.
Why salt? I only add 2-3 capfulls of distilled malt vinegar to my dye bath (as recommended here) and this really helps the uptake of the dye, the colour saturation and ensures even coverage. The only time I get spots on my pieces is when I don't make sure that I've mixed the dye properly before adding the parts. Admittedly usually my WSF parts are thin walled and hollow with no trapped powder, but my latest batch did have trapped material and they dyed great.

(Regarding that material, Shapeways insisted that I add at least two 2mm holes or one 4mm hole in my parts so they could remove unused material, which I did, and then they left it all in!)

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 Post subject: Re: Blue shapeways puzzles?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 8:31 am 
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Gus wrote:
Why salt?
Salt raises the boiling point of water so in principle it makes for a hotter bath and maybe deeper penetration of the dye. It's not needed but its cheap and I've never noticed any negative effects from it before.

Carl

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 Post subject: Re: Blue shapeways puzzles?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 8:46 am 
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Oskar wrote:
I use Jacquard Acid Dye by Dharma Trading.


Perhaps the reason why the black dye isn't taking too well is because the Jacquard acid dyes are not suited for shapeways nylon?

I intend to try out the I-dye Poly that is also by Jacquard. I'll post the results either here or in a new topic when the time comes.

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 Post subject: Re: Blue shapeways puzzles?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2013 8:32 pm 
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Oskar wrote:
I use Jacquard Acid Dye by Dharma Trading.

<SNIP>

I recycle all dye bath (except black), as they can be reused many times without any effect to the color quality.
I hope this isn't too big of a bump but I have a video I made today that I wanted to share.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W15nfq8tKYI

I made 3 videos today. The first 2 are still uploading. However while making the first two I noticed the pots that I had stored my Jacquard Acid Dye baths in since dying my Multi Gear Cube Kit and the set of Tetrarhons had undergone some changes.

The point is if you store Jacquard Acid Dye solutions do NOT add salt. Or if you do, DON'T store them in stainless steel containers.

Carl

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 Post subject: Re: Blue shapeways puzzles?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2013 10:12 pm 
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wwwmwww wrote:
I noticed the pots that I had stored my Jacquard Acid Dye baths in since dying my Multi Gear Cube Kit and the set of Tetrarhons had undergone some changes.

The point is if you store Jacquard Acid Dye solutions do NOT add salt. Or if you do, DON'T store them in stainless steel containers.

I store in glass containers because I've noticed corrosion too. One night I was dyeing parts really late so I finished dyeing them but I didn't want to spend the time boiling down the dye and getting it into storage so I left it in the pot overnight. There was significant damage to the inside of the pot in the morning. Now I don't let my dye baths touch steel for any longer than they need to.

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 Post subject: Re: Blue shapeways puzzles?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 7:33 am 
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Brandon Enright wrote:
wwwmwww wrote:
I noticed the pots that I had stored my Jacquard Acid Dye baths in since dying my Multi Gear Cube Kit and the set of Tetrarhons had undergone some changes.
The point is if you store Jacquard Acid Dye solutions do NOT add salt. Or if you do, DON'T store them in stainless steel containers.
I store in glass containers because I've noticed corrosion too. One night I was dyeing parts really late so I finished dyeing them but I didn't want to spend the time boiling down the dye and getting it into storage so I left it in the pot overnight. There was significant damage to the inside of the pot in the morning. Now I don't let my dye baths touch steel for any longer than they need to.
I'm in the lucky position that I do not have to dye parts on an industrial scale like some of you guys so I just pour my dye away after each use. Also, since I've been adding vinegar to my Rit dye I stopped adding salt - I can't remember why I was using salt in the first place as it is not required for dyeing nylon according to the Rit people.

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 Post subject: Re: Blue shapeways puzzles?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2014 11:21 pm 
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Please excuse the bump. This looks like the best thread to ask.

I'm trying to determine which size of dyes to buy. The dyes available from Jacquard mention how much to use to dye one pound of fabric. They say 1/2 to 1/3 an ounce per pound of fabric.

I suppose this means that for puzzles, we probably need the 8 oz containers rather than the 1/2 oz to dye anything significant, right?

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 Post subject: Re: Blue shapeways puzzles?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 8:55 pm 
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Yeah, use at least 1 to 1.5 ounces. It of course depends on the puzzle size.

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 Post subject: Re: Blue shapeways puzzles?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 9:07 pm 
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I ordered a royal blue Bubbloid 122, so I think just ordering puzzles in blue is easier. We'll see when it comes.

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 Post subject: Re: Blue shapeways puzzles?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 3:59 am 
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Has anyone tried RIT dye and then followed up with another like Dylon?
Assuming the dyes work with slightly different mechanisms, it could double up, right?
Anyone know if the chemistry of these dyes is the same?

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 Post subject: Re: Blue shapeways puzzles?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 7:58 pm 
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I will confess, this color I made was a mistake. I had used too little black dye on this puzzle, let it soak for about 30 mins in warm water, and rinsed them out directly after drying. I was happy with this color, although I redyed my gigahexaminx overnight with 2 packets of rit in hot water and not rinsing them and I achieved a beautiful black.

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 Post subject: Re: Blue shapeways puzzles?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 4:05 pm 
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Oskar, do you wash the parts AFTER dyeing? the one time I tried Jacquard Dye, I had horrible problems with dye staining my hands (even from the parts being dry). I ended up having to scrub each part w/ soapy water and a toothbrush - way more work than I wanted....

(note, this was with the iPoly dye - I will have to try the Acid Dyes as well)


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 Post subject: Re: Blue shapeways puzzles?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 4:25 pm 
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Derek Bosch wrote:
Oskar, do you wash the parts AFTER dyeing? the one time I tried Jacquard Dye, I had horrible problems with dye staining my hands (even from the parts being dry). I ended up having to scrub each part w/ soapy water and a toothbrush - way more work than I wanted....

(note, this was with the iPoly dye - I will have to try the Acid Dyes as well)

I don't have any experience with colored dyes but I've had the problem you describe with black Rit dye many times. Unless I soak the parts for at least 24 hours after dyeing and then very thoroughly dry them my hands will get stains. I've also had problems with salt leaching and acetic acid crystal formation (from the vinegar) if I'm not very thorough soaking the parts after dyeing.

I haven't had to resort to soap and a toothbrush though...

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 Post subject: Re: Blue shapeways puzzles?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 5:34 pm 
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BelcherBoy2000 wrote:
I ordered a royal blue Bubbloid 122, so I think just ordering puzzles in blue is easier. We'll see when it comes.
First... THANK YOU!!! Second... please post pictures. I'd love to see a blue Bubbloid.

Carl

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 Post subject: Re: Blue shapeways puzzles?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 8:28 pm 
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Here's the pics of the pieces Carl! I will assemble this shortly and make a new thread about it. The stickers haven't come in yet, though.


Attachments:
File comment: Both types of edges
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File comment: Core- looks very cool
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File comment: Corner caps- both views
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File comment: Corner piece
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image.jpg [ 1.76 MiB | Viewed 591 times ]

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