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 Post subject: New Kickstarter project - a mathematical cube!Posted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 12:43 am

Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2012 10:57 am
Location: In my study drooling over my puzzle hoard - Precioussssss!
I received an email via my blog about a new Kickstarter project - to me it just looks like a 3x3 supercube (albeit a very high quality one) involving a monotone cube with mathematically significant numbers on each face. Here's what they said:
Quote:
Hi there,

I’d like to share a brand new solid aluminum mathematics puzzle with yourself and your readers.

The Magic Cube is a precision made logic puzzle cube that highlights six noteworthy number sequences. The cube may look & move like a Rubik’s Cube but the similarities end there. The Magic Cube has 3,000 times as many combinations as a Rubik’s Cube, is completely monotone & is inscribed with numbers.

To correctly solve the cube, all the numbers must be on the correct face & be oriented in the same direction. Jonathan Kinlay, the inventor of The Magic Cube, estimated that there are 140x10^21 possible configurations than the standard Rubik’s Cube.

Dr. Kinlay says, “I invented the thing and I know the solutions - I have trouble doing it. It could take me all day if I just picked one up.”

More than just an intriguing puzzle; the Magic Cube is also intended to stimulate interest in fundamental concepts of number theory, serve as a beautiful accessory, or a tactile device to hone your logic skills.

You can find more information & photos of our puzzle at http://www.kck.st/GzQNcL

I would be interested in everyone else's thoughts on this.

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Kevin
Hopelessly addicted to puzzles!!
Visit my blog: Puzzlemad

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 Post subject: Re: New Kickstarter project - a mathematical cube!Posted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 1:18 am

Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 12:09 pm
Location: Missouri
Puzzlemad wrote:
I would be interested in everyone else's thoughts on this.
Yes, this is just a 3x3x3 super cube. The number of states should be very well known so I'm not sure why they are acting like this is some new calculation. Still I must confess I like the idea of having a blue anodized solid aluminum 3x3x3. Not sure I want to pay \$250 for it but its tempting.

As far as this image...

Why does the first face go 1, 2, 6, 10, ... when the image directly above it goes 1, 3, 6, 10, ...? If I were to pay \$250 for one I would hope it didn't have what appears to be errors like this engraved in its surface. I also don't really care for the font they've used for the engraved numbers.

Carl

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 Post subject: Re: New Kickstarter project - a mathematical cube!Posted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 2:22 am

Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2009 8:54 pm
Location: Bay Area, California
Puzzlemad wrote:
[...] Dr. Kinlay says, “I invented the thing and I know the solutions - I have trouble doing it. It could take me all day if I just picked one up.” [...]
It is very easy fore somebody to come up with problems that are very difficult for that person to solve. The field of cryptography has seen many complex algorithms utterly fail to analysis that was beyond the author's abilities.

A problem is only hard when many people have tried it and failed. Be skeptical of claims by the inventor that a problem they invented is hard.

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 Post subject: Re: New Kickstarter project - a mathematical cube!Posted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 2:32 am

Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2009 8:54 pm
Location: Bay Area, California
Also...
Puzzlemad wrote:
I would be interested in everyone else's thoughts on this.

"The Magic Cube is a patent-pending redesign [...]"
I'm very curious what innovative, patentable, non-obvious invention the authors is claiming here. I'm sure this forum is so full of prior art the patent application touches upon an innumerable number of posts.

Also, I'm no expert in number theory, but the digits of Pi, e, the prime numbers, etc., are barely number theory. The claims of mathematical insight or complexity are highly exaggerated.

_________________
Prior to using my real name I posted under the account named bmenrigh.

Last edited by Brandon Enright on Thu Oct 03, 2013 2:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: New Kickstarter project - a mathematical cube!Posted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 2:36 am

Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2009 8:54 pm
Location: Bay Area, California
I suppose it's bad form to post three times in a row but here goes...
Puzzlemad wrote:
The Magic Cube has 3,000 times as many combinations as a Rubik’s Cube ...]

It's easy to prove that the upper-bound on "more combinations than the Rubik's cube" is 2048 (given some basic assumptions.). A claim of 3,000 is just sloppy. 2048 doesn't round up to 3,000 even in a marketer's fantasy.

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Prior to using my real name I posted under the account named bmenrigh.

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 Post subject: Re: New Kickstarter project - a mathematical cube!Posted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 3:26 am

Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2013 3:39 am
Location: Rye, East Sussex
Excuse my ignorance and I'm assuming someone does have an informative answer for this.

But, why would you need a kick starter project for a sticker mod?

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How to sum up my solving skills..."I try, I try, I fail. I try, I try, PREVAIL!"

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 Post subject: Re: New Kickstarter project - a mathematical cube!Posted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 3:37 am

Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2012 10:57 am
Location: In my study drooling over my puzzle hoard - Precioussssss!
andychilly wrote:
Excuse my ignorance and I'm assuming someone does have an informative answer for this.

But, why would you need a kick starter project for a sticker mod?

It looks like they've developed their own injection molds and also need the kickstarter for the wood and metal versions. But I'm really not sure what is so special about this - this is why I posted it here!

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Kevin
Hopelessly addicted to puzzles!!
Visit my blog: Puzzlemad

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 Post subject: Re: New Kickstarter project - a mathematical cube!Posted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 4:12 am

Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2013 3:39 am
Location: Rye, East Sussex
Puzzlemad wrote:
andychilly wrote:
Excuse my ignorance and I'm assuming someone does have an informative answer for this.

But, why would you need a kick starter project for a sticker mod?

It looks like they've developed their own injection molds and also need the kickstarter for the wood and metal versions. But I'm really not sure what is so special about this - this is why I posted it here!

So the 7k project is mainly for a cube that is aesthetically pleasing but when it comes down to the puzzle itself, would they have any rights over the number configuration on it?

In my personal opinion there are much more inventive ideas that deserve pledges but each to their own.

_________________
How to sum up my solving skills..."I try, I try, I fail. I try, I try, PREVAIL!"

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 Post subject: Re: New Kickstarter project - a mathematical cube!Posted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 4:38 am

Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 12:31 am
Location: Greece, Australia, Thailand, India, Singapore.
andychilly wrote:
In my personal opinion there are much more inventive ideas that deserve pledges but each to their own.

Exactly. It is the nth time (where n tends to infinity) where we see someone re-inventing the wheel.
What is worrying is that he is trying to present it as something novel by changing the materials.

The challenge is not to make a difficult puzzle with a known mechanism that will frustrate, but to make
an easy puzzle with an unknown mechanism, which everyone will enjoy.

Pantazis

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 Post subject: Re: New Kickstarter project - a mathematical cube!Posted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 4:46 am

Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2013 8:33 am
Why doesn't somebody contact Oliver and ask if he can make the stickers? Because the idea is really awesome!

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 Post subject: Re: New Kickstarter project - a mathematical cube!Posted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 5:09 am

Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2013 3:39 am
Location: Rye, East Sussex
Thedutchcuber wrote:
Why doesn't somebody contact Oliver and ask if he can make the stickers? Because the idea is really awesome!

Agreed, but now that this Kickstarter project is out there; There would be animosity about idea stealing and things could get messy. I would say most people on here enjoy puzzles that are different but if they had a choice of buying a brand new expensive cube made from unique materials or just modding one of their cheap 3x3x3's with some brilliant Oliver's Stickers I think we all know what people will choose.

Maybe someone should give the people in charge of this project a link to this thread, and then maybe they will stop before they are too committed.

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How to sum up my solving skills..."I try, I try, I fail. I try, I try, PREVAIL!"

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 Post subject: Re: New Kickstarter project - a mathematical cube!Posted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 5:41 am

Joined: Sun Mar 15, 2009 12:00 am
Location: Jarrow, England
So, we have the original stickers (with my small correction on the Triangle series):
Attachment:
File comment: Methematical

3x3x3 Mathematical.png [ 12.53 KiB | Viewed 1549 times ]

So what if this is extended to a 4x4x4 to make it more difficult?
Attachment:
File comment: Methematical

4x4x4 Mathematical.png [ 17.29 KiB | Viewed 1549 times ]

Or we could make it much harder and limit each cubie to a single digit and use some well known mathematical constants, e,g, for a 3x3x3
Attachment:
File comment: constants

3x3x3 Constants.png [ 11.82 KiB | Viewed 1640 times ]

Or for a 4x4x4:
Attachment:
File comment: constants

4x4x4 Constants.png [ 15.3 KiB | Viewed 1640 times ]
I suppose if you just gave a scrambled cube (of the last two variants) to someone it would be very difficult indeed to solve if you didn't know in advance what the constants were, especially if you chose the positioning of the numbers to increase parity problems.

I suppose I could get Oliver to do sticker variants for my suggestions above ( (c) Gus 2013 ) without upsetting Dr. Kinlay?

For a alphabetical take on this concept I would refer you to my Scrabble Cube

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Last edited by Gus on Thu Oct 03, 2013 9:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: New Kickstarter project - a mathematical cube!Posted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 8:22 am

Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2013 3:39 am
Location: Rye, East Sussex
This is my 4x4 sudoku cube which I just used number stickers from a stationary store. technically Its the same thing but different "picture" right?

My point being that everyone has fun with cubes and making sticker mod number puzzles but to claim that their puzzle is brand new revolutionary and they need \$7,000.00 is mad....but yea I understand its a different mold injection etc.

 Attachments: image_1363213381453295.jpg [ 460.27 KiB | Viewed 1603 times ]

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How to sum up my solving skills..."I try, I try, I fail. I try, I try, PREVAIL!"
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 Post subject: Re: New Kickstarter project - a mathematical cube!Posted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 8:51 am

Joined: Sun Mar 15, 2009 12:00 am
Location: Jarrow, England
I'll think I'll start a KickStarter for my ideas, and then buy some stickers from Oliver and keep the rest of the money I agree, it seems way over the top to design an entire 3x3x3 cube just so you can "engrave" the faces with some numbers. And looking at the 3D designs they have come up with, they are very basic old-school Rubik's, so they are not doing any innovation there.

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 Post subject: Re: New Kickstarter project - a mathematical cube!Posted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 8:55 am

Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2013 3:39 am
Location: Rye, East Sussex
Gus wrote:
I'll think I'll start a KickStarter for my ideas, and then buy some stickers from Oliver and keep the rest of the money I agree, it seems way over the top to design an entire 3x3x3 cube just so you can "engrave" the faces with some numbers. And looking at the 3D designs they have come up with, they are very basic old-school Rubik's, so they are not doing any innovation there.

Ooo ive got an idea,

A stickers that taste like fruit! (basically sweet wrappers)

_________________
How to sum up my solving skills..."I try, I try, I fail. I try, I try, PREVAIL!"

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 Post subject: Re: New Kickstarter project - a mathematical cube!Posted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 9:10 am

Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2009 5:13 pm
This is basically nothing more than a generic sudoku cube, which you can buy for a couple of bucks, but in aluminium. There's no way on earth they will be granted any patent.

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 Post subject: Re: New Kickstarter project - a mathematical cube!Posted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 9:26 am

Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 12:09 pm
Location: Missouri
Gus wrote:
I suppose I could get Oliver to do sticker variants for my suggestions above ( (c) Gus 2013 ) without upsetting Dr. Kinlay?
Gus, If you do I should point out that you left the 2 out of the Fibonacci series on your 4x4x4.

The more I think about this the more likely I am to pass. The only part that peaked my interest was an anodized solid aluminum 3x3x3. But if I went there I think what I would prefer would be one where the corners were designed as 3 parts and the edges designed as 2 parts such that each face could be anodized a different color and thus remove the need for stickers. However that is an even less original idea and has already been done in plastic. Still I think I might just pick up a solid aluminum one for \$250 if it were available.

Carl

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 Post subject: Re: New Kickstarter project - a mathematical cube!Posted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 9:44 am

Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2013 3:39 am
Location: Rye, East Sussex
wwwmwww wrote:
Still I think I might just pick up a solid aluminum one for \$250 if it were available.

How well would something like that turn though?

_________________
How to sum up my solving skills..."I try, I try, I fail. I try, I try, PREVAIL!"

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 Post subject: Re: New Kickstarter project - a mathematical cube!Posted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 9:45 am

Joined: Sun Mar 15, 2009 12:00 am
Location: Jarrow, England
wwwmwww wrote:
Gus wrote:
I suppose I could get Oliver to do sticker variants for my suggestions above ( (c) Gus 2013 ) without upsetting Dr. Kinlay?
Gus, If you do I should point out that you left the 2 out of the Fibonacci series on your 4x4x4
Thanks, post corrected.

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 Post subject: Re: New Kickstarter project - a mathematical cube!Posted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 11:49 am

Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 12:09 pm
Location: Missouri
andychilly wrote:
How well would something like that turn though?
I'm not a speed solver so I'd say it could certainly be designed to turn good enough for me. What I'd do if I were to make it would be to make the parts and then anodized them and then machine the fillets as that would produce a nice stickered look with a break between the colors. Heck... I'm half tempted to make one myself. I could design the parts. Anyone here with access to a CNC milling machine? I've had anodizing done back when I was in grad school so I don't think it would be too hard to find someone willing to help with that part of it. Its the CNC machine time that I doubt I could afford.
Gus wrote:
Thanks, post corrected.
You are welcome.

Carl

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 Post subject: Re: New Kickstarter project - a mathematical cube!Posted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 8:09 am

Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2008 2:18 am
All this talk of metallic cubes has me wondering how much a standard-sized 3*3*3 would cost to have printed in Shapeways' various metal materials. I am assuming it would be prohibitive for the average person, but I am still curious. I bet their Antique Bronze finish coupled with in-set rhine stones for the stickers would be quite beautiful.

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 Post subject: Re: New Kickstarter project - a mathematical cube!Posted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 9:07 am

Joined: Sun Mar 15, 2009 12:00 am
Location: Jarrow, England
Jeffery Mewtamer wrote:
All this talk of metallic cubes has me wondering how much a standard-sized 3*3*3 would cost to have printed in Shapeways' various metal materials. I am assuming it would be prohibitive for the average person, but I am still curious. I bet their Antique Bronze finish coupled with in-set rhine stones for the stickers would be quite beautiful.
I just uploaded a 3x3x3 design to Shapeways. It's nothing special, just a standard "old school" mechanism, 57mm, 1mm wall thickness, centre caps + core. It comes out at just over \$400 basic price in the stainless steel materials. Unfortunately the model was too big for the brass material, it just needs re-arranged to fit the maximum bounding box, but I would estimate that it would be at least \$1100 for gold plated brass

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 Post subject: Re: New Kickstarter project - a mathematical cube!Posted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 9:24 am

Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2013 3:39 am
Location: Rye, East Sussex
Gus wrote:
Jeffery Mewtamer wrote:
All this talk of metallic cubes has me wondering how much a standard-sized 3*3*3 would cost to have printed in Shapeways' various metal materials. I am assuming it would be prohibitive for the average person, but I am still curious. I bet their Antique Bronze finish coupled with in-set rhine stones for the stickers would be quite beautiful.
I just uploaded a 3x3x3 design to Shapeways. It's nothing special, just a standard "old school" mechanism, 57mm, 1mm wall thickness, centre caps + core. It comes out at just over \$400 basic price in the stainless steel materials. Unfortunately the model was too big for the brass material, it just needs re-arranged to fit the maximum bounding box, but I would estimate that it would be at least \$1100 for gold plated brass

Times that by the rule of 3 for shop resale and you are looking at a healthy \$3,300.00 (or £2,056.07 for us brits)... could you order me one at cost price and I will pay in monthly \$2.00 instalments for 45 years?

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