They will probs release a re-tooled 5x5x5 and a pillowed one with that, and the same for the 6x6x6 (V-6 b).

Then, in 2016 we might get a higher order cube.

V-Cubes is a big company, and might want to give something to the general public that is expensive, (like a V-8, V-9........would be) just yet.

I think you should stay. This site isn't about people pleasing. I don't get along with a few folks either and constantly argue / debate.

I don't have to contend with being a mini celebrity like you but just ignore folks and don't engage them.

If TP had a like button, I'd press like on this post.


This is a bit of a harsh statement. It may seem like making decisions for the good of the community instead of for money's sake can seem moral and all, but everyone needs to have money to get by, and while I can't speak for their budget, it's perfectly understandable if they choose to make a move for financial reasons. This is their job- they need to get money somehow or they can't get you the good stuff.

Hi Ender

No it's not. It was a question. In fact there's loads of ? marks all through it to show it was questions. If you read it again you'll read me saying "I can't believe...driven only by financial motives...".

I'm genuinely interested in how and why puzzle companies/manufacturers make the decisions they do. I'm constantly intrigued by the designs in the puzzles I have and I know I have no concept of the hours and hours of planning and decision-making that must go into their business.

(I was actually attempting to keep the discussion on topic)

Just a few points to wrap up:

1.) CrazyBadCuber's account has been removed again as per his request. Like last time we were not asking him to leave, nor had even a warning been issued, but if he isn't comfortable here and wants to be removed, we'll honor his request.

2.) As for PMs I did indeed follow up my posts with him in private as he didn't seem to appreciate public discussion. I certainly addressed things in more depth but I don't believe anything I haven't said publicly here in the past. In a PM it is a bit easier to separate personal opinion from forum policy so I can be a bit more free to express myself. But it shouldn't be a surprise for those who have read my posts that [Admin hat off] I respect Verdes the company, the father, and the son quite a bit but also disagree with some of their actions. I consider Konstantinos a friend and don't see that means I must fully agree nor never disagree. I have lots of other friends on the forum and we disagree in many ways as well, just like CrazyBadCuber and I clearly disagree on some points but I'd be happy to consider him a friend. [Admin hat back on]
Hopefully that clears any concerns about double standards.

3.) Defending Verdes. We certainly support and respect the contributions they have made. And we decry what has been done to them by other companies. This is a defense of sorts. But that doesn't mean we endorse everything they do, nor attack everyone with whom they might have a conflict. We do our best to be fair, and I have to say it is absolutely the hardest part of the job. Because while most of time KO issues are simple (direct rip offs of the 7x7x7, for example) there are cases where we can understand the claims of both sides (and remember, there are plenty of non-Verdes related KO issues).
So does this site defend Verdes (the inventor, and business)? On some points of course, as consistent with our KO policy and our defense of other victims of copying. But some people interpret our upholding of our values and policy as a blanket endorsement of anything any victim of KOs might do. As I have pointed out, being a victim doesn't mean you can do no wrong, just as a company (or designer) who has in our view violated our KO policy on one puzzle might do lots of original work we celebrate on others.

4.) Why financial choice: Well the bills have to be paid. When it feeds your family you can't mess around with poor business choices for the sake of community good will. This doesn't mean those aren't factors, but you have to be reasonable in your expectations.
But let's be clear: I don't know their business details, I am just giving my best guess about what their reasons might be. They seem pretty logical to me given what I know, which indicates a 4x4x4 is a far superior opportunity than an 8x8x8.

Once again we've ventured into a tour of the KO discussions you can find in many other threads. And none of it has in any way really helped us learn anything about the V-4.

So please, if you have relevant V-4 information, we'd love to have you post about it! If not, and you want to re-hash more KO stuff, please take some time to read what has been written before (and I will be impressed if you actually do this).
If you really feel you have something important and unique to add on that topic, it may be worth a new thread. But be aware the threshold is pretty high. A *lot* of time has gone into the matter and so you might want to check with a moderator first to save some time, as we will at this point start moderating things a bit more closely.

We never like to lock threads, edit, or delete posts. Please help us avoid that on this thread, we appreciate it.

Dave

I pretty much agree with this, except for the 5x5x5. I don't think there's anything wrong with the V-Cube 5 right now, so it wouldn't really be worth it to make a slightly retooled version. However, I could definitely see a new 6x6x6 and maybe even a new 7x7x7.

-Doug

I'll probably end up buying one but for whatever reason, the 4X4 seems to be such a hard cube to get right for all companies. IMO I can't see this being better than a [Removed: KO] 4X4 and it will probably cost triple the price.
I think at the time that the V-Cube 5 was released it was the best 5X5 on the market and they had a monopoly. But in time, other brands came out and did it better and cheaper and the "V-Cube" company has been kinda rolling on reputation ever since.

And I believe its been stated elsewhere that Verdes has no interest in making non-NxNxN cubes. I can't recall exactly where I've seen that but I believe it was back in one of the first threads about a non-NxNxN that had heavily copied the V-mech. As I recall someone had asked Verdes if that was ok and he had given his blessing as he stated essentially they have no interest in making non-NxNxN cubes. If I can find the thread I'll post it here.

Carl

P.S. Found the link I was looking for. Its the first P.S. in this post by kastellorizo dated Jun 29, 2009 4:29 am which I'll quote here:

Sorry for another off topic post but I had a question... and no its not a KO question so I hope its safe. As a regular here I want to say I valued CrazyBadCuber's opinion just as I do DLitwin's and others. But once the topic shifted from the opinions to the people themselves I lost all interest and my first reaction was to say if CrazyBadCuber wants to go let him go. I didn't as I thought it best just to avoid that whole side-topic. But I then saw Bradon's post:So may I ask someone to educate me (PM is fine as I don't want to take this any farther down the rabbit hole) but may I ask why CrazyBadCuber is considered a mini celebrity? The nice thing (and some may say bad thing) about the internet is it basically gives us all an equal voice. I have no idea much of the time if I'm talking to the president of a major corporation or some 12 year old trying to pass the time sitting in detention. I think that's a good thing as I go in with no expectations and sometimes its the 12 year old that blows my socks off. Anyways... its become clear to me that I'm missing something and thought I should educate myself.

Carl

CrazyBadCuber is one of the most popular cubers on YouTube, with over 12,000 subscribers. For that reason he is considered quite famous within the cubing community.

(Sorry, I should learn how to read and should have sent this as a PM. My bad.)

What is it about the 4x4 that makes it such a problem? I certainly believe it. My only experiences with 4x4's have been popping pieces and having to rebuild them, only to have them pop again. That's why I rarely pull mine out to play with. I much prefer the 5x5. Even the V-Cube 6 is great by comparison, so why is the 4x4 such a pain to make work right?

Well clearly have no life because i just went and read through that entire thread. I think my comments below are relevant because this is a thread concerning a v-cubes product, which is what that thread also referenced.

1. It's amazing how much expectation and "it's just around the corner" thinking there was back in June 2009 about the possible release of the V-cube 9.

2. Having not known anything about twisty puzzles until after 2009, it's fascinating to me at least to see some of the history of these things. It helps put some recent comments of members in a little more perspective.

3. Back then there were only around 1200 members. This community has more than doubled in only around 3 years.

4. I found this post from the thread interesting...


Well put, Tony. The thread then quickly died, but not before this one from Kastellorizo on July 12th:

Perhaps he wasn't just kidding.
Based on all this, I firmly predict the V-cube 9 will be released on July 12th, 2014.

All in all, reading that thread and also this thread have made me realise the difference between the average puzzle consumer's (ie. me) expectation of "soon to be released" and what actually happens in reality.

I agree with most of the people, let us focus on the puzzle's fun part. Bringing to life
confrontational discussions of the past will only lead to bad situations and will waste
too much time of everyone here, especially the administrators'. If in question, there is
a HUGE wealth of information hidden behind that magical search button.
(Thanks rline, that was a long time ago LOL)




Pantazis

I'm not sure that having subscribers on youtube has anything to do with your level of knowledge on particular subjects. Catering to the entertainment of the masses does in no means make you an expert on anything, except maybe how to promote yourself and produce content people apparently want to watch. Do not necessarily trust someone just because they are considered 'famous'.

Rating someone "quite famous" simply because they have 12,000 subscribers is ridiculous. I think you need at least 20,000.
(please imagine a smiley here if you wish).

Tony this is a bit of a low estimate. I think "quite famous" only happens when someone gets 20,440 subscribers...

I am glad we've established YouTube popularity thresholds (no possible relation to Tony's channel, I'm sure) so let's call that matter resolved and please not let this become a divergence into personal opinions of members (or previous members).

CrazyBadCuber has made some great contributions to this site in his two brief visits, and we will miss those, but it is also clear that twice now he has not felt comfortable with the way we approach discussion to the degree that he feels he has to leave. He has a "forum" of his own in his YouTube channel and comment area and I'm sure that matches what he wants.

Dave

From the V-cube FaceBook page:

"V-CUBE It will be out before end of this month! Flat version will come as well! Cost will be 20€."

"V-CUBE MeMyselfAndPi [...] we will send you one next week so that you will be the first one!"

Also...



-Doug

Not wanting to spoil sellings on this here, but just a warning for speedcubers: notice the pillowed 4x4x4 doesn't meet wca regulations: http://worldcubeassociation.org/regulations/#3h1 You can buy the flat version when it's available, though

Memyselfandpi got his!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0bD_GYRYq4

And I am missing the slice moves, so I asked about that in the comments.

I DO like that cube though.. sounds so nice and .. thick sturdy? Heh

Thanks for your question about that, Kattenvriendin. After experimenting on the [KO producer removed], I saw exactly what you meant. Sometimes the inner layer does get stuck on the little plastic "hooks" on the core. So then I picked up the V-Cube 4 & I didn't feel any lockups occur. I tried it multiple times on each side & each layer, but it was nice & smooth. The only thing I noticed was the inner layer that grabs hidden layer was little stiffer than the other inner layer. But I noticed this occurs on the [KO producer removed] as well,.

I have noticed the lockups on the [KO producer removed] occur during a solve though. Then again, neither am I in the habit of turning the inner layers independently.

Thank you so much for replying. I do innerslice on the 4x4 so it is a big plus to see this doesn't lock up like that.

Waiting for that cubic shape.. although I like that pillowed..

choices choices hahaha

I have deja vu. we see the mechanism of the new V-4 and the old KO-cube...



it is a strange situation ...
1) Chinese KO-cube uses patented Verdes conic cuts (also used in Dayan)
2) V-4 uses the more mechanism of the KO-cube: 6-axis core, two center parts, very interest blocking mechanism (also used in tomz 3 * 4 * 5), but does not use a his clicking-mechanism

Ah so they both stole from each other?

Good.. eye for an eye, matter settled

I believe the case should be going one way. That is, without the V-Cube mech,
the KO would have never existed (with or without any improvements).

Moreover, getting over the clicking issue, is part of development that I suspect
could be found by V-Cubes anyway. Maybe after twenty years from the filing
of the patent, the KO makers could claim "improvement", but right now it is
under protection, so their "help" (or however you call that) doesn't count.

Going forward, I cannot wait to try the V4 (very soon) myself! After getting a feel
of the V3 in Singapore, and by hearing the positive comments here, it seems that
it is going to be a hit.


Pantazis

I usually shy away from these discussions, but all I have to say is... "sigh".

Frankly, I fail to understand where's the rules violation here.
No names of a KO 4x4 are mentioned. Just a picture.

Well, from what I said, I don't mean rules violations on the forum- I just mean the whole patent mess is frustrating.

It is very interesting how Verdes might have drawn inspiration from the knockoff cube. What is interesting to note though is that this blocking mechanism is essentially a clever implementation of MeMyself&Pi's pin mod (at about 13:00 in the video) so there is something that could be considered prior art.

There have been a number of cubes using this mechanism for keeping the core lined up, including the 4x4x6. I don't know what the first one on the market was or when it came out as I have had no interest at all in new 4x4x4s for a very long time (and still don't). I also don't know if any of them pre-date MeMyself&Pi's video or not but I suspect that his video came first.

Here is a quote from izovire on MMaP's v4 video.

This is a extremely interesting piece of information. Thank you!
I would really like this cutout from the V-Cube 4 thread returned back to the original thread.

It was a great idea that tremendously increases the quality of the cube. This KO is not protected anyway, so V-Cubes using it should be fine.

Am I the only one who sees these raised arcs more similar to ball-core 4x4x4 rather than the pin mod? Remember, the pin mod only worked around the equator and you needed to glue two pieces to the center. But if you use the ball-core arcs as inspiration for the core for the raised parts, you have neither pins nor sealed parts. The core has 120-degree rotational symmetry in the arc way.

Unfortunately, xb27 denied this on the speedsolving forum.

link: http://www.speedsolving.com/forum/showt ... elf-amp-Pi)

1st and 4th post on page 3 of that thread.

Sorry for the confusion. When it was first posted it contained the KO puzzle's name in the .jpg itself so I was unable to simply edit it like I can with text. grigr has re-posted it without the text. It disappeared again briefly while we admins got in sync on the matter (we're in different time zones...).
It's back!
There was a bit of confusion and some bits of the conversation were held back for a bit but have now been edited so the thread should be complete once more. Sorry for the delay.

Thanks for pointing that out! We value first hand information instead of rumor and so pointing out mis-quotes is really valuable.

Luckily I just approved xb27's TP forum application a few days ago. I hope he can set the record straight on our forum, directly from the source.

Dave

I know we have a strict rule about these things, but here's xb27's patent filed in Taiwan.



I found it in the website of Intellectual Property Office, R.O.C with patent number M394175.

The Chinese version has a little bit text, but the pictures show the structure. I hope the patent document clarifies the discussions here.

Admins, please feel free to edit my post if you find it inappropriate. I got the patent number from a post made by xb27 in the mf8 forum:

http://bbs.mf8-china.com/forum.php?mod= ... ra=&page=4

Not to worry, I think this is good information for our community to have, it is pretty far from our concern of links and/or obvious producer names being advertisement.

This of course brings up the stickier sides of the KO issue: A patent issued here is clearly in conflict of many existing US, European and other Chinese patents regarding the underlying structure of the puzzle (Verdes design, clearly) and the addition is very PiMod inspired, concepts that are public domain.

This is not to minimize xb27's innovation on this. We can respect that while still considering the overall product KO.

The Verdes 4x4x4 design has great similarities to the xb27 design and one can argue many ways on that matter. Clearly I and the moderators will have to ponder these issues carefully and try to do the best we can.

Dave

I just watched MeMyselfAndPi's Review video over the weekend. I notice he stated he wasn't upset that the V-Cube used a clickless mechanism that was heavily inspired by his pin mod but that it would have been nice to be acknowledged. Maybe its just me reading between the lines too much but I almost think he did get a nod thrown his way. They are clearly aware of his videos and most likely his pin mod video as well. If not, why else would they send him one prior to the official release? Granted it may not be as nice as getting your name on the box but I would think if they were trying to claim this was a totally independant invention they would have gone out of their way to avoid any implication that they were even aware of MeMyselfAndPi.

I wonder if xb27 got a pre-release V-4x4x4 as well?

Carl

Ummm... didn't you just give away enough info here to allow someone to find a KO puzzle? I know there are aspects of the KO policy I question (disagree with may be too strong a word) but we really seem to be cutting hairs here. How is this any different then MeMyselfAndPi having the KO producer's name removed from his post? I'm just glad I'm not a moderator in this case as it seems its very easy to back yourself into a corner on this topic.

That said I once openly asked how to get a blue copy of xb27's KO puzzle. Granted I wasn't aware it was classified as a KO at the time. But upon viewing MeMyselfAndPi's video I'm now wanting one even more. I'd love to be able to compare it first hand with the V-4x4x4. Why blue... well that would make it easy to identify without taking it apart. Granted my interest is mosty from a designers stand point as I'd like to study what works well and what maybe doesn't work so well with the aim to learn something that maybe I could apply to my own designs down the road. Oh... I'm so torn on this KO topic myself. I really don't want to support the KO puzzle market but there is this part of me that tells me its ok as long as I buy an official V-4x4x4 too as I wouldn't be buying two V-4x4x4's anyways. Granted that voice I think is just trying to appease my conscience into allowing me to do something I feel is wrong. And its probably a mute point anyways as I've not been able to find an affordable blue one though I haven't really been looking for a while now.

Carl

I came out with my first version of the tutorial November, 2008.

I actually noticed that too. While the center pieces fit into the curved notches on the ball-core, the bumps on the V-Cube 4 fit into the notches on the center pieces. The orientations & positions are relatively the same.

I think it's reasonable to think xb27 is telling the truth in claiming that he came up the improvement on his own, (but not absolute).

I wondered this as well. But then again, Masterofthebass just received a V-Cube 4 too. I did ask V-Cubes when I received the cube if they'd like to comment on where they got bump design from, but I didn't receive a response. It's also quite possible they used xb27's design thinking he did get it from my pin mod, & that they had just as much right to it themselves as xb27 did.

I will be very interested to hear what you guys have to say. If you could post them here that would be great!

xb27 is a forum member name, not a company name. Sure, you can get to information you want if you look but at some point that level of obfuscation becomes ridiculous. We do the best we can within reason. Right now links to KO puzzles and obvious producer names seem disrespectful. Indirect information seems reasonable, where the context is appropriate (for example, some indirect links above were left in, despite linking to content mentioning KO puzzle names/manufacturers). Context matters, and often is the difference between respectful and disrespectful. No, we can't draw hard and fast rules here, it will remain gray.
Respectful discussion (like yours has been) is appreciated on this difficult matter.
Some days I wish I were not! Yes, trying to be fair on this point is not a happy task in many cases. We do the best we can, and there have been some cases where I see no satisfactory solution. In fact Sandy has suggested that on some puzzles we may have to come to the uneasy definition of "Undefined" as a KO status. I have not yet fully considered the implications of such a designation, and as such have not yet used it.

Dave

It. Is. Here.
https://v-cubes.com/ecom/home.php?cat=267
The V-Cube 4b is now available. There is an assembled version and a DIY version.

I would've thought a DIY kit would be slightly cheaper than a 'sold assembled' puzzle.

Ohhh that price is very reasonable!

Am I right in that the 20 euro cost includes free shipping? It says n/a on the shipping cost part...

Last time I bought from Verdes it cost me £39 for a 3 v-cube set delivered to the UK. A couple of weeks later puzl.co.uk started selling them at a lower cost with shipping in the order of £5-6. I was horrified.

Nooo that is excluding shipping. It says there you have to log in and then shipping will be calculated.

Almost 10 euros to get it shipped here.. umm.. I am going to wait a little while longer!

A little off-topic, but the V-Cube 3's, sold through the V-Cubes website, are currently the same price. They used to sell for different amounts. The assembled one was €14.99 and the DIY one was €13.99. Now, they're both €14.99. The V-Cube 2's are also the same price now: €9.99. I think that they used to be different prices too.

The black pillowed is out now.
http://www.v-cubes.com/ecom/product.php?productid=16201

Pillowed cubes aren't competition-legal...

That's all I got to say about that.