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 Post subject: keeping WSF white!
PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 1:31 pm 
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Everyone knows you can dye WSF to nice colors, but I'm trying to find a way to keep WSF white!
Curious if anyone else has found a way to keep the White in WSF!


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 Post subject: Re: keeping WSF white!
PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 2:02 pm 
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Would it work just to give it a spray of modelling clear coat to protect the colour? It works for the full colour sandstone, so I thought it might also work of WSF as well.

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 Post subject: Re: keeping WSF white!
PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 3:22 pm 
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If you are going to spay the WSF with a protective coating, you would have to make sure that the solvent used in the spray did not attack the nylon. I have used the type of spray which was used to protect Letraset lettering ( I can't remember the name and I have none left) without any problems, but I suppose you could try the stuff artists use to protect chalk drawings.

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 Post subject: Re: keeping WSF white!
PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 4:38 pm 
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Gus wrote:
If you are going to spay the WSF

I really hope you mean spray :lol:

I'm sure polishing the pieces might help prevent dirt from sticking.

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 Post subject: Re: keeping WSF white!
PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 5:54 pm 
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I already plan on polishing the WSF, just curious what extra precautions can be made to keep the puzzle white (without changing the tolerances too much!)


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 Post subject: Re: keeping WSF white!
PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 6:03 pm 
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Derek Bosch wrote:
I already plan on polishing the WSF, just curious what extra precautions can be made to keep the puzzle white (without changing the tolerances too much!)
How do you intend to polish them? The Shapeways WSF Polished option uses large media and generally can't reach the internal grooves and surfaces that would affect tolerances.

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 Post subject: Re: keeping WSF white!
PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 6:08 pm 
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do you know how large the media are? my puzzle isn't a twisty, so it doesn't have ultra-fine geometry...
say the typical gap is 1/8" inch... I'll happily post pictures once I get things figured out...


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 Post subject: Re: keeping WSF white!
PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 6:13 pm 
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Their media seems about 1/6 inch across to me, so 1/8 inch will be hard to reach. However, they are angle-cut, so you may get some polishing in there.

I just remembered something. Toy prototypers I spoke with a few years ago said they seal SLS nylon prototypes with cyanoacrylate. I think that would prevent the nylon from soaking up grease/color/moisture, and give you a surface you could even wash or wipe clean. I've never tried it, but it may be worth looking into.

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 Post subject: Re: keeping WSF white!
PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 7:10 pm 
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io wrote:
Their media seems about 1/6 inch across to me, so 1/8 inch will be hard to reach. However, they are angle-cut, so you may get some polishing in there.

I just remembered something. Toy prototypers I spoke with a few years ago said they seal SLS nylon prototypes with cyanoacrylate. I think that would prevent the nylon from soaking up grease/color/moisture, and give you a surface you could even wash or wipe clean. I've never tried it, but it may be worth looking into.

Last time I mentioned that people thought I was crazy. But I find that CA works great.

Chandler

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 Post subject: Re: keeping WSF white!
PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 7:12 pm 
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You've tried it then! Do you have any pictures? Did you do only external surfaces or internal? Did it affect turning or breakin?

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 Post subject: Re: keeping WSF white!
PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 7:16 pm 
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Yeah how do you apply / infuse cyanoacrylate onto / into the part?

One thing I've wanted to try is dipping parts in chloroform which softens nylon and would probably smooth the surface some. I dunno if this would affect tolerances and shape. It seems like something that must be tried in order to determine what would happen.

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 Post subject: Re: keeping WSF white!
PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 7:17 pm 
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This is a question I've been interested in before as well. See here.
io wrote:
I just remembered something. Toy prototypers I spoke with a few years ago said they seal SLS nylon prototypes with cyanoacrylate. I think that would prevent the nylon from soaking up grease/color/moisture, and give you a surface you could even wash or wipe clean. I've never tried it, but it may be worth looking into.
Yes this was mentioned in the other thread as well. Then I had to look up cyanoacrylate before I realized we are talking about super glue. But I must be missing something... how do you apply a thin uniform layer of super glue to a SWF part without getting finger prints all over the part and gluing it to yourself or what ever you set it on to dry? Is there someway to water down or dilute superglue that would allow you to dip/submerge the part and then say let it float in wafer while the glue dried? Acetone will disolve super glue so maybe some mix of Acetone/superglue in a bath might work but from my experience with super glue I just have a very hard time seeing how this is supposed to work. Its messy stuff and everything I let it touch always seems to get messy. So what am I doing wrong or asked another way... what do these toy prototypers know that I don't know. There must be some detail in the application process or type of super glue that I'm missing.

Carl

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Last edited by wwwmwww on Tue Dec 11, 2012 7:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: keeping WSF white!
PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 7:23 pm 
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I've never coated a whole piece with it, but I used it on a printed Rubik's cheese to even out a surface and it looked pretty good. I don't have any pictures or examples of it at the moment, but I do have a bunch of extra SJP pieces from my last Shapeways order mistake that I could do some tests on.

Somebody remind me around Christmas break when I'll actually have some time to work in the garage.

I use a rag to apply it (typically to my cast puzzles), and then spray it with an accelerator like: http://www.fastcap.com/estore/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=108. Don't use a paper towel; they seem to react with the glue itself.


EDIT:
I should add that I remember seeing a show about 3D-printed house models (Shapeways' sandstone material) where they dipped the models into a tub of cyanoacrylate. Of course that'd be expensive and dangerous for our purposes but that's probably what the toymakers know that you don't, Carl.

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Last edited by QuirkyCubes on Tue Dec 11, 2012 7:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: keeping WSF white!
PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 7:25 pm 
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Wow!!! 3 post while I'm typing mine.
QuirkyCubes wrote:
Last time I mentioned that people thought I was crazy.
Sorry that was probably me and its in the thread I just linked to. For the record I don't think you are crazy... I just think I'm missing something. Maybe its just skill working with super glue. I have no artistic skill with my own 2 hands. That is why I use computers to draw my circles and 3D printers to do my puzzle fabrication. It's just that when I think of many small and expensive SWF parts and super glue the result pictured in my head is a big mess.

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 Post subject: Re: keeping WSF white!
PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 7:27 pm 
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wwwmwww wrote:
Wow!!! 3 post while I'm typing mine.
QuirkyCubes wrote:
Last time I mentioned that people thought I was crazy.
Sorry that was probably me and its in the thread I just linked to. For the record I don't think you are crazy... I just think I'm missing something. Maybe its just skill working with super glue. I have no artistic skill with my own 2 hands. That is why I use computers to draw my circles and 3D printers to do my puzzle fabrication. It's just that when I think of many small and expensive SWF parts and super glue the result pictured in my head is a big mess.

Carl

Yeah I guess I exaggerated that a bit / remembered incorrectly.

I work with super glue a lot so I guess there's a bit of skill involved. I would avoid the mechanism if at all possible, but I guess I could test that too when I get a chance.

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 Post subject: Re: keeping WSF white!
PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 7:42 pm 
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QuirkyCubes wrote:
Yeah I guess I exaggerated that a bit / remembered incorrectly.

I work with super glue a lot so I guess there's a bit of skill involved. I would avoid the mechanism if at all possible, but I guess I could test that too when I get a chance.
Could I please put in a request for some videos of you applying this process? Maybe you could make a couple during your testing... no huge rush. Your application with a rag has me a bit puzzled. How do you keep from gluing the rag to the part (or your hand)? And even if you can keep that from happening is the rag trash after this process... or can you wash it with acetone?

A process I'm now tempted to test is to take a quarter cup of acetone and say try to disolve half a tube of super glue in it. Then submerge the SWF part in this solution using a pair of tweezers. Then set the part on a plate of glass to dry. The acetone should evaporate very quickly and maybe leave the part saturated with superglue to dry in a nice uniform way. If its glued to the glass after drying I think you should be able to pop it off rather easily. Does this sound like anything worth trying? Or is it just a recipe for a big mess?

Carl

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Last edited by wwwmwww on Wed Dec 12, 2012 7:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: keeping WSF white!
PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 7:48 pm 
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wwwmwww wrote:
Could I please put in a request for some videos of you applying this process? Maybe you could make a couple during your testing... no huge rush. Your application with a rag has me a bit puzzled. How do you keep from gluing the rag to the part (or your hand)? And even if you can keep that from happening is the rag trash after this process... or can you wash it with acetone?

Yeah, I'd be willing to make a video. I'll have to write myself a note. =P

You'd be surprised at how easy it is to apply. Perhaps my brand of super glue (2P-10 or Loctite) is better or slower than the rest, but I've never glued fingers together. Yeah, the (corner of the) rag is trash. My dad has piles of old ripped up white t-shirts that I use, so it's usually not a big deal.


Hey, maybe instead of dyeing my Split Jing's Pyraminx black I can coat it with CA. I'll make a video of that for sure.

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 Post subject: Re: keeping WSF white!
PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 8:03 pm 
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wwwmwww wrote:
A process I'm now tempted to test is to take a quarter cup of acetone and say try to disolve half a tube of super glue in it. Then submerge the SWF part in this solution using a pair of tweezers. Then set the part of a plate of glass to dry. The acetone should evaporate very quickly and maybe leave the part saturated with superglue to dry in a nice uniform way. If its glued to the glass after drying I think you should be able to pop it off rather easily. Does this sound like anything worth trying? Or is it just a recipe for a big mess?

I've never tried adding liquid super glue to acetone but I have soaked already glued pieces in acetone and it just doesn't work well at all. The super glue doesn't exactly dissolve, it mostly turns into a gooey gel. For your suggestion to work I think the superglue would need to uniformly dissolve / disperse in the acetone.

Also, a cup full of acetone takes a really long time to evaporate. Much longer than I was expecting.

You can boil acetone away very easily though. I float a dish in a hot water bath. The water from my tap comes out at 60C which is enough to boil it. I can keep the surrounding water hot enough to boil it away rather fast.

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 Post subject: Re: keeping WSF white!
PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 8:51 pm 
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bmenrigh wrote:
I've never tried adding liquid super glue to acetone but I have soaked already glued pieces in acetone and it just doesn't work well at all. The super glue doesn't exactly dissolve, it mostly turns into a gooey gel. For your suggestion to work I think the superglue would need to uniformly dissolve / disperse in the acetone.
I'm not a chemist but doesn't super glue react with air when it hardens? If so the hardened material has a different chemical make up then the liquid super glue and how well it dissolves in acetone could certainly be different. Not saying I've tested how well the liquid super glue dissolves either... so I guess the only way to know for sure is to test it.
bmenrigh wrote:
Also, a cup full of acetone takes a really long time to evaporate. Much longer than I was expecting.
Well if you have many parts to dip you don't want it to evaporate too fast. The plan would be to just dip the parts for say 30 seconds to a minute and then take them out to dry.

Carl

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 Post subject: Re: keeping WSF white!
PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:05 pm 
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wwwmwww wrote:
bmenrigh wrote:
I've never tried adding liquid super glue to acetone but I have soaked already glued pieces in acetone and it just doesn't work well at all. The super glue doesn't exactly dissolve, it mostly turns into a gooey gel. For your suggestion to work I think the superglue would need to uniformly dissolve / disperse in the acetone.
I'm not a chemist but doesn't super glue react with air when it hardens? If so the hardened material has a different chemical make up then the liquid super glue and how well it dissolves in acetone could certainly be different. Not saying I've tested how well the liquid super glue dissolves either... so I guess the only way to know for sure is to test it.
bmenrigh wrote:
Also, a cup full of acetone takes a really long time to evaporate. Much longer than I was expecting.
Well if you have many parts to dip you don't want it to evaporate too fast. The plan would be to just dip the parts for say 30 seconds to a minute and then take them out to dry.

Carl
A quick skim of Wikipedia suggests the hardening (polymerization) is actually due to moisture and that the moisture in the air is enough to do it.

I'm about to test and video what happens with liquid superglue in acetone :-)

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 Post subject: Re: keeping WSF white!
PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:48 pm 
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Alright the liquid superglue does dissolve / disperse in acetone and it does seem to seal parts. I took video of the experiment and will post a link (possibly a new topic) when the video is done uploading and authoring.

The surface of the part does get a tad shiny and there is a chance it affects the tolerances of the puzzle so it still needs to be tested on a real puzzle. I'm sure I have a print to test on but I have to figure out which one I'm willing to possibly sacrifice to science.

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 Post subject: Re: keeping WSF white!
PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 3:24 am 
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I hope you guys are all going to use masks and proper ventilation for all these experiments! I did coat a couple of my small Shapeways puzzles in superglue, and it made my eyes sting. I used a cheap very thin type - I only needed a pin to apply it, just dipping the pin into the glue and applying a drop, which magically spread out over the surface of the puzzle pieces, leaving them sealed and shiny.

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 Post subject: Re: keeping WSF white!
PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 7:14 am 
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bmenrigh wrote:
Alright the liquid superglue does dissolve / disperse in acetone and it does seem to seal parts.
Wow!!! I must confess that really sounded like a recipe for a big mess to me. I can't wait to see the video. Its starting to sound like I have two new things to try on my next Multi Gear Cube Kit. The Jacquard Acid Dyes and this process on the white tiles. What ratio of acetone to superglue did you use?

Carl

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 Post subject: Re: keeping WSF white!
PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 10:41 am 
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wwwmwww wrote:
bmenrigh wrote:
Alright the liquid superglue does dissolve / disperse in acetone and it does seem to seal parts.
Wow!!! I must confess that really sounded like a recipe for a big mess to me. I can't wait to see the video. Its starting to sound like I have two new things to try on my next Multi Gear Cube Kit. The Jacquard Acid Dyes and this process on the white tiles. What ratio of acetone to superglue did you use?

Carl
I thought for sure it would be a terrible mess too but it seems to have worked well.

Here is the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3a1f-JWc_uI

Obviously much more testing is needed but at least the concept seems sound.

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 Post subject: Re: keeping WSF white!
PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 11:58 am 
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great video, Brandon! thank you so much for doing that!
looks very promising!

do you think it is necessary to first dip in acetone (before adding the super glue)?
or would just the mix be sufficient?

Cheers,
Derek


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 Post subject: Re: keeping WSF white!
PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 12:13 pm 
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Derek Bosch wrote:
great video, Brandon! thank you so much for doing that!
looks very promising!

do you think it is necessary to first dip in acetone (before adding the super glue)?
or would just the mix be sufficient?

Cheers,
Derek

To be clear, I added the liquid super glue directly to the acetone and then dipped the pieces in that. Dipping the piece in acetone first probably wouldn't have any effect but I'm not sure.

The next thing I'm going to try is mixing a few more super glue into a lot more acetone so I can totally submerge all of the parts. It'll be more glue but a lower overall concentration of glue due to the increased acetone. I'll probably do all of the parts at once and if they stick together when drying I'll submerge them all again in pure acetone to separate them.

I'll probably try to seal Luke's Curvy Copter Skewb since the reprint price is relatively low should I destroy it.

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 Post subject: Re: keeping WSF white!
PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 12:40 pm 
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do you think painting the mixture on the parts would work? A bit more tedious, except I have some fairly large pieces
(6 inches on a side).


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 Post subject: Re: keeping WSF white!
PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 12:59 pm 
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Derek Bosch wrote:
great video, Brandon! thank you so much for doing that!
looks very promising!
Just watched the video... color me impressed. Even the bowl came out clean in the end. I was sure that would be a goner. I take back everything I ever said bad about super glue. And what surprises me even more... the mixing it with acetone was my idea. My ideas never seem to work that well for me... LOL!!!

GREAT VIDEO!!! The most interestng, educational, and entertaining video I've seen on YouTube in a while. But I'm odd in what I consider entertainment... I'd love to see more of people's experiments documented as well as this was. Even the stuff that fails teachs us something.

Carl

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 Post subject: Re: keeping WSF white!
PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 1:29 pm 
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Derek Bosch wrote:
do you think painting the mixture on the parts would work? A bit more tedious, except I have some fairly large pieces
(6 inches on a side).
Everything I know about superglue + acetone is pretty much captured in my one video :lol: Please try it and let us know. I'm sure if you screw up you can soak pieces in pure acetone to at least undo some of the glue mess.

wwwmwww wrote:
GREAT VIDEO!!! The most interestng, educational, and entertaining video I've seen on YouTube in a while. But I'm odd in what I consider entertainment... I'd love to see more of people's experiments documented as well as this was. Even the stuff that fails teachs us something.
Thank you very much! You're too kind. I was worried 16 minutes was too much time to spend on it. I need to get myself a better video camera that focuses better and has a screen big enough for me to see if the work is in focus or not. I also need a better magnifying glass.

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 Post subject: Re: keeping WSF white!
PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 5:48 pm 
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I will definitely give it a try, once I get some acetone!
I'll try both painting and soaking, to see what has better results...


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 Post subject: Re: keeping WSF white!
PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 6:06 pm 
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Painting could be a problem, as the bristles of the brush will very quickly get stuck together as the acetone evaporates and the superglue takes hold. Good luck.

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 Post subject: Re: keeping WSF white!
PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 6:08 pm 
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Tipp-Ex/Wite-Out? :lol: :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: keeping WSF white!
PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 6:37 pm 
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Wow, Brandon, what a fantastic video! I can't believe it was 16 minutes.
Thanks for the care and detail you put into things like this. I was hoping you were going to dip them in ketchup as a test. :)

I wonder if cyanoacrylate would take a finer polish than nylon in tumbling?

From a website on the miniatures hobby:
http://miniatures.about.com/od/gluerevi ... houses.htm

"Cyanoacrylate is occasionally used as a hard, water resistant wood finish for small projects. The trick is to apply it in very thin layers until you build up a coating. Once the coating is built up, the hard nature of CA glues allows it to be polished to a high shine with Micro Mesh Sanding Pads"


Hmmm.....

This is getting interesting.

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 Post subject: Re: keeping WSF white!
PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 6:39 pm 
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You can easily coat parts in superglue by doing a bit at a time and holding it with tweezers if necessary. It's far easy than painting parts with sticky resin like I did with our 11x11x11.

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 Post subject: Re: keeping WSF white!
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io wrote:
I was hoping you were going to dip them in ketchup as a test. :)
Brandon is probably the only person I know that has a jar of powdered copper more readily available then ketchup. Seriously I have no idea what one does with powdered copper... is that some of your tumbling media?

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 Post subject: Re: keeping WSF white!
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wwwmwww wrote:
io wrote:
I was hoping you were going to dip them in ketchup as a test. :)
Brandon is probably the only person I know that has a jar of powdered copper more readily available then ketchup. Seriously I have no idea what one does with powdered copper... is that some of your tumbling media?

Carl
Haha well I have a "no food in my apartment" policy but I'll consider ketchup an industrial supply and pick a bottle up tonight when I go to the store to get more glue and a larger mixing dish.

The copper powder is for another project. I'm trying to copper (electro)plate WSF printed parts. Up until now the show stopper was that I couldn't infuse enough copper into the surface of the parts to provide enough seed material to form a plated shell / mesh on / in the part. That was the initial reason for buying the pressure cooker but 15 PSI just isn't enough to force the powder in. I'm really optimistic though that I'm going to be able to mix the coper powder in with acetone and glue to infuse the part with enough copper that I can plate it.

At first I grabbed my 5 micron iron powder for the video but that stuff floats like smoke so I'd have to wear a respirator which makes it hard to talk on video.

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 Post subject: Re: keeping WSF white!
PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 11:05 pm 
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Well apparently the cyanoacrylate to acetone ratio has to be pretty high. I tried about 400ml of acetone and 6 small tubes worth (.42 oz / 12 g) of superglue but it wasn't enough to have any effect. I need to get more glue and I'll resume the experiment tomorrow evening.

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 Post subject: Re: keeping WSF white!
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 4:16 am 
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Location: Jarrow, England
@wsfcoating I can get three quite large bottles of liquid superglue for £1 at my local thrift store. I hope that you are not buying the expensive tubes ...

@copperplating The copper plating of non-conductive surfaces is a well understood process in the manufacture of plated through holes in printed circuit boards. I think they use a 5 step chemical process to create a very thin layer of copper onto the surface of the base material (FR4 epoxy) and then use electroplating to increase this to the desired thickness. DIY solutions are possible, hereand here, as well as more professional systems.
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However, I'm pretty sure the finish achieved on WSF material would be very dull and rough due to the nature of the surface of the sintered nylon. Good luck :)

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 Post subject: Re: keeping WSF white!
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 5:06 am 
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Gus wrote:
I'm pretty sure the finish achieved on WSF material would be very dull and rough due to the nature of the surface of the sintered nylon.
I guess the effect would be similar to the coat of cyanoacrylate: quite shiny rather than dull and rough, but not completely smooth/flat.

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 Post subject: Re: keeping WSF white!
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 6:05 am 
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KelvinS wrote:
Gus wrote:
I'm pretty sure the finish achieved on WSF material would be very dull and rough due to the nature of the surface of the sintered nylon.
I guess the effect would be similar to the coat of cyanoacrylate: quite shiny rather than dull and rough, but not completely smooth/flat.
I suppose it depends on the thickness of copper plating. I've looked at the Cu plating on the inside of PCB holes and it's definitely not very shiny, although it is usually only 25 microns (0.025mm) thick.

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