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 Post subject: Re: Solving the Bandaged 3x3x3
PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 3:43 pm 
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Hi Kevin (and Andreas),

I haven't completely solved the Alcatraz variants yet (although I am fairly close), and this one I have only just made and scrambled this morning, but I know it will be a beauty:

Fused-3
Attachment:
Fused-3.jpg
Fused-3.jpg [ 660.93 KiB | Viewed 5402 times ]
Being inspired by this thread: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=22729 (It's a pity that thread never reached a full conclusion).

I have been thinking about a combination of the CT Bandaged 333 and `removed tiles` for quite a while. Removing tiles doesn't have to be restricted to minimum number, there are more challenges, some easier and some complicating. There's also the idea of multiple colours. So.. I’ve just purchased 2 more puzzles to facilitate 2 colour cubes or 3 sides of the same colour etc. This cube also allows many opportunities for beginners to make various simpler puzzles like edges only, or corners only versions, 2 opposite faces of the same colour etc.

I have taken the opportunity to test some of these ideas on the Fuse-3. You might like to try the Detiled Corners Only Fuse-3.
Attachment:
Corners Only Fuse-3.jpg
Corners Only Fuse-3.jpg [ 1.23 MiB | Viewed 5386 times ]

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PB 3x3 55sec Jan 2011 (When I was a kid 1:30 was speedcubing so I'm stoked).
1st 3x3 Earth (nemesis) solve Jan 2011 My You Tube (Now has ALLCrazy 3X3 Planets with Reduction)


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 Post subject: Re: Solving the Bandaged 3x3x3
PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 12:43 pm 
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Hi Burgo,

I haven't actually got that far yet but would you be able to enlighten us about how you have named/designed the Planet series?

You didn't put any further pictures in showing how each differs from the next and I think this series might be a nice one to add.

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 Post subject: Re: Solving the Bandaged 3x3x3
PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 3:42 pm 
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Hi Kevin,

The Bandaged Clock Planets are made from the single diagram (the photograph of the cube is the `diagram`). With 6 faces bandaged, the diagram in itself is not a fully functional puzzle. If you match the colours from the Crazy 333 diagram (from MF8) to my `photograph diagram`: the bandaged parts of the planets would be on the matching coloured faces (and therefore the unbandaged faces are on the matching coloured faces). Then you can make all 8 Planets. Some are quite trivial, it was just a fun idea, and sometimes fun ideas lead to more interesting things :) . I'll put a picture of the 333 Crazy Planet format on the post to make it easier to understand.

The Detiled Corners Only Fuse-3 is quite easy. [I really wanted to present it with the middle 1x1x1 corner totally untiled- all 3 tiles removed from it (and everything else exactly the same).. except it then might be seen as having more than one solution :( .] It's worth a go for a `tricky`but not so challenging solve.

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1st 3x3 solve Oct 2010 (Even though I lived through the 80s).
PB 3x3 55sec Jan 2011 (When I was a kid 1:30 was speedcubing so I'm stoked).
1st 3x3 Earth (nemesis) solve Jan 2011 My You Tube (Now has ALLCrazy 3X3 Planets with Reduction)


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 Post subject: Re: Solving the Bandaged 3x3x3
PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 4:35 pm 
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Hi friends,

Today I got my CT bandaged set from customs office.
My experiences
It turns very smooth without lubrication.
It looks very nice.
One blue 1x1 sticker is missing :(

I began with easy cubes:

bandaged 3 = easy
big block = very easy ( similar crazy earth)
3 slices = very easy a little bit harder than big block
fuse cube = (crazy neptune)
2 bars4 = a little bit harder than bandaged 3

Ok now I tried the Bicube :(

I cannot solve it. :oops:
I cannot understand it. :oops:
I have no idea to find sequences. I m not able to find a sequence.

This cube is more difficult than crazy tetrahedron uranus.
The hardest puzzle ever.

Please help me.

Cheers,
Andrea


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 Post subject: Re: Solving the Bandaged 3x3x3
PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 5:14 pm 
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Hi Andrea,

have you looked at the posts above? In my post from October 16th I included a spoiler and it points you to Jaap's solution on Jaap's puzzle page. http://www.jaapsch.net/puzzles/bandage.htm (That's what I use since 1998 or so.)
We have discussed a bit the history and Andreas pointed out that the original Bicube looks different from the CT version. The CT version is the same as the earlier Meffert's Bandage Cube in a different colour scheme. The Cube originally named Bicube has a solid 2x2x2 block opposite to the single corner cubie. It is a bit easier than the CT version. I think that the CT Bicube (= Meffert's Bandaged Cube) is pretty hard.
Jaap's solution is quite clever. He uses two move sequences only and combines them in a very clever way.

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 Post subject: Re: Solving the Bandaged 3x3x3
PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 5:59 pm 
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Andrea wrote:
I began with easy cubes:

bandaged 3 = easy
big block = very easy ( similar crazy earth)
3 slices = very easy a little bit harder than big block
fuse cube = (crazy neptune)
2 bars4 = a little bit harder than bandaged 3

Ok now I tried the Bicube :(

I cannot solve it. :oops:

Hi Andrea,

You are a MUCH better solver than me so I am rather frightened of the Bicube!! :shock:
I am just working my way through Burgo's list in order from easy upwards!
I have done:
2Bar4
3 Slices
Big Block
Fuse Cube
Bandaged 3 (I did this because I bought it from Rline as a cube to add to my collection)

I have just done Stalactites - this was very enjoyable - I initially thought that all I needed to do was to reduce it to a Big block, but this is definitely not entirely the case - if you do just reduce it that way then it has some parity issues which caught me very much by surprise! I did manage it in the end and really feel quite proud of myself!! :D

If you need help with the Bicube then I suggest looking at DrWho/SuperAntonioVivaldi's YouTube video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zi7Xvu-N-_Y
I haven't watched it yet as I haven't got that far with this cube set!

Burgo wrote:
The Bandaged Clock Planets are made from the single diagram (the photograph of the cube is the `diagram`). With 6 faces bandaged, the diagram in itself is not a fully functional puzzle. If you match the colours from the Crazy 333 diagram (from MF8) to my `photograph diagram`: the bandaged parts of the planets would be on the matching coloured faces (and therefore the unbandaged faces are on the matching coloured faces). Then you can make all 8 Planets. Some are quite trivial, it was just a fun idea, and sometimes fun ideas lead to more interesting things :) . I'll put a picture of the 333 Crazy Planet format on the post to make it easier to understand.

Thanks for this Burgo! Never underestimate how dim I can be!! I'm well known for it! In fact since starting the blog I'm internationally renowned for being "not terribly bright" :lol: :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Solving the Bandaged 3x3x3
PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 9:37 pm 
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Quote:
Ok now I tried the Bicube :(

I cannot solve it. :oops:
I cannot understand it. :oops:
I have no idea to find sequences. I m not able to find a sequence.

Andrea,

This is my feeling also with this puzzle. It seems somehow "different" to all the others, in that it's so difficult to find anything useful. I have read all this thread and I know about Jaap's page but I'm hoping to try and figure out something myself first. I think it requires a lot of thought, in the same way that me figuring out how to solve the 4th block twisted corner of the AI 444 required a lot of thought. :lol:

So far, what I've got to is being able to solve all the pieces with centers. I figure if this is done, then I might be able to experiment with moving around the other pieces somehow. What do you think?

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 Post subject: Re: Solving the Bandaged 3x3x3
PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 2:27 am 
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Puzzlemad wrote:
I have just done Stalactites - this was very enjoyable - I initially thought that all I needed to do was to reduce it to a Big block, but this is definitely not entirely the case - if you do just reduce it that way then it has some parity issues which caught me very much by surprise! I did manage it in the end and really feel quite proud of myself!!
I'm very happy that you found it enjoyable and also that you were successful. That feeling of `I'll just do.. wait a minute.. what's this??` is just THE BEST isn't it :D ! I think (and hope) that many of the puzzles that I have presented will give that kind of experience to all levels of solvers, they certainly did to me. There are definately a few more surprises ahead. What I particularly liked about the Stalactites is that it made the Big Block concept so much more interesting.. even the reduction to a Big Block itself is quite contorted.

rline wrote:
This is my feeling also with [the Bicube]. It seems somehow "different" to all the others, in that it's so difficult to find anything useful.. So far, what I've got to is being able to solve all the pieces with centers. I figure if this is done, then I might be able to experiment with moving around the other pieces somehow. What do you think?
There is something `particular` (that I won't mention) about it that makes it not quite as difficult as you might think to find sequences. The problem is to find `matching` useful sequences.

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1st 3x3 solve Oct 2010 (Even though I lived through the 80s).
PB 3x3 55sec Jan 2011 (When I was a kid 1:30 was speedcubing so I'm stoked).
1st 3x3 Earth (nemesis) solve Jan 2011 My You Tube (Now has ALLCrazy 3X3 Planets with Reduction)


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 Post subject: Re: Solving the Bandaged 3x3x3
PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 3:50 am 
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Hi Kevin and Konrad and all other,

Thank you for your help.

I want find my own sequences. But this is not easy. If I cannot find own sequences I will look to Burgos, Konrads, Jaaps and Jon's sequences. The problem is to find out how it works. Only a face is turnable if it includes the 2x2x2 corner.

Kevin wrote:
So far, what I've got to is being able to solve all the pieces with centers. I figure if this is done, then I might be able to experiment with moving around the other pieces somehow. What do you think?


It's a little bit hard for me to memorize the configuration of the Bicube.
I cannot answer to this question, not yet. I didn't found a sequence. So I must find it do decide first change pieces with bandaged centers.

My opinion, how hard a puzzle is differs from the opinion of other people, I think.

After I solved the Bicube, I will proceed with Burgos designs. Fortress, Stalaktites, Clock's etc.
I'm late here in the thread :(

There are many color schemes. I stickered my Bicube like HKNowstore. Jon used a different color scheme.
Perhaps this is equvalent to Jaaps color scheme.

My solution for 2 bars4 is different to rline's solution.

Solution:
[spoiler]
I used the blue and green face with bars because I own only 8 blue 1x1 stickers

1) Put one Bar to left and one to the right. Turn the cube that the left bar is horizontal.
2) solve the 3 pieces under the left bar with intuition. Use the upper and right face for it.
3) solve the 3 pieces behind the right bar, with intuition, too.
4) turn the right face ( R), so the 3 positions FRU FR FRD comes to up face. The uper face and the slice is turnable.

4) solve the edges positions.
a) solve the upper left and right with this sequence: ( 3 cycle of edges UL -> UB -> UR)
L R' F L' R U2 L R' F L' R
b) solve the slice edges with (3 cycle or edges in slice U2 M' U2 M ) or U2 M2 U2 M2
5) solve corners
put the cube upside down ( x2) and make setup moves ( 1 or 2)
use the corner 3 cycle (L2 U R2 U')x 2

6) flip the edges with ( M' U2) x 4



Cheers,
Andrea


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 Post subject: Re: Solving the Bandaged 3x3x3
PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 4:46 am 
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Quote:
My opinion, how hard a puzzle is differs from the opinion of other people, I think.

This is absolutely true, Andrea. I often find myself scratching my head at how I can't "see" something that a lot of others see clearly.

Quote:
After I solved the Bicube, I will proceed with Burgos designs. Fortress, Stalaktites, Clock's etc.
I'm late here in the thread :(

At least you're only late! I feel like I was there at the beginning but I just can't keep up. Too much other stuff going on...

Quote:
There is something `particular` (that I won't mention) about it that makes it not quite as difficult as you might think to find sequences.

Well, if it's not going to give the game away, I'd prefer that you did mention it!

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 Post subject: Re: Solving the Bandaged 3x3x3
PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 5:16 am 
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Quote:
This is my feeling also with [the Bicube]. It seems somehow "different" to all the others, in that it's so difficult to find anything useful.. So far, what I've got to is being able to solve all the pieces with centers. I figure if this is done, then I might be able to experiment with moving around the other pieces somehow. What do you think?


Quote:
There is something `particular` (that I won't mention) about it that makes it not quite as difficult as you might think to find sequences. The problem is to find `matching` useful sequences.


Yes the Bi Cube was kind of unique. I would not say hard but its tooked it time. If i would try to solve it yet, i absolutly would fail at that because i surely forgot at least one or two steps.

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 Post subject: Re: Solving the Bandaged 3x3x3
PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 6:13 am 
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rline wrote:
Burgo wrote:
There is something `particular` (that I won't mention) about it that makes it not quite as difficult as you might think to find sequences.
Well, if it's not going to give the game away, I'd prefer that you did mention it!
It would become obvious after a while anyway, and I really don't want to spoil your fun with something that you will no doubt find out, nonetheless: [ The format of the Bicube doesn't allow for orientations. ]

And today's cube: Wall-i (after Wall-E) and Unbandaged Wall-i they're on the easier end.
BTW I also solved the Fuse-3 today.


Attachments:
Wall-i.jpg
Wall-i.jpg [ 1.16 MiB | Viewed 5252 times ]

_________________
1st 3x3 solve Oct 2010 (Even though I lived through the 80s).
PB 3x3 55sec Jan 2011 (When I was a kid 1:30 was speedcubing so I'm stoked).
1st 3x3 Earth (nemesis) solve Jan 2011 My You Tube (Now has ALLCrazy 3X3 Planets with Reduction)


Last edited by Burgo on Thu Nov 08, 2012 4:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Solving the Bandaged 3x3x3
PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 1:31 pm 
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I found some sequences for the Bicube.

This is the startposition
Attachment:
bistrt.jpg
bistrt.jpg [ 27.53 KiB | Viewed 5242 times ]

The two bandaged centers are back and bottom, the left blue 2x1 stickers are vertical.

The 3cycle R U R' F' U L' U' L F U' causes this:
Attachment:
bi3cycl.jpg
bi3cycl.jpg [ 32.36 KiB | Viewed 5242 times ]
Attachment:
bi3cyc.jpg
bi3cyc.jpg [ 31.8 KiB | Viewed 5242 times ]


This sequence cause a nice 2x2 swap !
R U2 L' U2 R U' L U2 R' U' R'
Attachment:
bi2x2swap.jpg
bi2x2swap.jpg [ 25.59 KiB | Viewed 5242 times ]

Attachment:
bi2x2swapb.jpg
bi2x2swapb.jpg [ 35.07 KiB | Viewed 5242 times ]


To manipulate the left/back/down piece I found a 5 cycle
U2 L U' F R F' L' U' F R' F'
Attachment:
bi5cyclefl.jpg
bi5cyclefl.jpg [ 28.05 KiB | Viewed 5242 times ]

Attachment:
bi5cycle.jpg
bi5cycle.jpg [ 29.98 KiB | Viewed 5242 times ]


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 Post subject: Re: Solving the Bandaged 3x3x3
PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 3:43 pm 
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I solved my Bicube. :D :) 8-)
With my own solution.
Each possible position is solvable with this 3 sequences.

Kevin: your question about centers. My first step is make the shape and align the center-bars, then use the sequences.

Cheers,
Andrea

PS: Now I look to Burgo's designs.


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 Post subject: Re: Solving the Bandaged 3x3x3
PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 4:34 pm 
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Andrea wrote:
I solved my Bicube. :D :) 8-)
With my own solution.
Each possible position is solvable with this 3 sequences.
....
Wow, that is quite an achievement!
As I said above, I have solved it 14 years ago with massive help from Jaap's solution. At least at that time, I would have NEVER been able to solve it without help. Congratulations Andrea! :D

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 Post subject: Re: Solving the Bandaged 3x3x3
PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 6:24 pm 
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Thank you Konrad,

did you try all designs from Burgo? My next is The Bandaged Loop.

Cheers,
Andrea

PS: Did you solve your Camouflage. The camouflage thread stops :( :)


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 Post subject: Re: Solving the Bandaged 3x3x3
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 11:03 am 
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The bandaged fortress.
Permuting the 7 edges is no problem.

But:
Attachment:
fortress.jpg
fortress.jpg [ 83.19 KiB | Viewed 5176 times ]


(edit)
I found a solution for it and solved the bandaged fortress.


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 Post subject: Re: Solving the Bandaged 3x3x3
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 3:35 am 
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My first design.
It's bandaged 3 with an additional 2x2x1 block.
Name : bandaged 3+

Attachment:
bandaged3p.jpg
bandaged3p.jpg [ 66.91 KiB | Viewed 5162 times ]


I cannot solve it , not yet.

Try it. Only one difference to bandaged 3, but much harder.
Corners are able turn and permute.
Edges are able flip and permute.
Cheers,
Andrea


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 Post subject: Re: Solving the Bandaged 3x3x3
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 4:58 am 
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Hi Andrea,

Finally someone else is playing.. and a really interesting little mid weight puzzle too. I solved it!
[
Stage 1 (no setup)
1. [Yellow U, Red F]:Solve blocks> except red, blue, yellow (leave in LL).
2. Solve E edges (by doing Uw twists and taking advantage of the slot in D).
3. Orientate LL edges using last E slot- relatively intuitively- no algs.
EDIT: I will elaborate on the final sequence: [with Blue F, Yellow U] (Last flipped edge in UL red, blue, yellow block upside down in FRD slot):
R U2 R' F' U' F This is an intuitive twist, so the sequence is just instructions.
4. L U L' U L U2 L' (or mirror with Blue as F) to place red/yellow edge.

Stage 2 (completed under setup DF')
5. [setup D F'] Place corners with a twist (I only solved it once, I need to check if I can 3cycle them).
EDIT: I just found that there was a 3cycle and I got lucky. So.. I have a 2 corner adjacent swap:
While in the setup [D F'] the swap is of URF<>URB: [F' U2 F] [(R2 U R2 U' R2) U'D (R2 U' R2 U R2) D'] [F' U2 F] ends still in the setup [F D']
6. Orientate corners and place edges with known Sune combos.
7. Undo setup [F D']
]

Much fun, Thankyou Andrea!

_________________
1st 3x3 solve Oct 2010 (Even though I lived through the 80s).
PB 3x3 55sec Jan 2011 (When I was a kid 1:30 was speedcubing so I'm stoked).
1st 3x3 Earth (nemesis) solve Jan 2011 My You Tube (Now has ALLCrazy 3X3 Planets with Reduction)


Last edited by Burgo on Fri Nov 09, 2012 11:27 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Solving the Bandaged 3x3x3
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 5:16 am 
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I would join in, but I'm not for 2 reasons -

1 - My spudger still hasn't arrived, so it's a hassle swapping the pieces around - i have to use a sharp knife at the moment, and i'm going to end up damaging either the puzzle or myself using it often :lol:

2 - I'm not very good at solving bandage puzzles as yet - i struggle with even the easiest ones :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: Solving the Bandaged 3x3x3
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 5:40 am 
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I use a stencil knife with an old blunt blade (just never put your fingers in front of the cutting edge), I go for a corner and lift it then get a screwdriver under it, but mine has got looser now, so generally all I need to do is get a corner up and off it comes.

I honestly don't know if it's practice or intuition that makes a good bandaged puzzle solver, I think I've always had the intuition, but one thing's for sure, it pushes you to use everything you have in every way possible, and this will help you to grow more of a complete understanding of all your methods.

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1st 3x3 solve Oct 2010 (Even though I lived through the 80s).
PB 3x3 55sec Jan 2011 (When I was a kid 1:30 was speedcubing so I'm stoked).
1st 3x3 Earth (nemesis) solve Jan 2011 My You Tube (Now has ALLCrazy 3X3 Planets with Reduction)


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 Post subject: Re: Solving the Bandaged 3x3x3
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 5:57 am 
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martywolfman wrote:
2 - I'm not very good at solving bandage puzzles as yet - i struggle with even the easiest ones :roll:

I'm not very good at any twisty puzzles compared to Andrea, Burgo and Rline! :shock: Actually I'm not particularly good in general! But if you keep looking at the list that Burgo is kindly updating and start easy and work through them then you really do seem to get a good training in them. I'm having a great time and I'm making sure I solve each one multiple times to prove I really understand each one. This has really been an absolute bargain of a puzzle!

Burgo - are you going to be "official keeper of the list" and rate Andrea's (and others) contributions and add them to your difficulty rating post? Effectively you are providing me with my homework list!! :P

As for removing the tiles - I'm using a really tiny pocket knife - it works perfectly.

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 Post subject: Re: Solving the Bandaged 3x3x3
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 5:59 am 
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Andrea wrote:
Thank you Konrad,

did you try all designs from Burgo? My next is The Bandaged Loop.

Cheers,
Andrea

PS: Did you solve your Camouflage. The camouflage thread stops :( :)
Hi Andrea, two answers to your questions: No and yes.
No, I did not try the designs made by Burgo.
I am very busy with a Shapeways puzzle series.
I'm building (assembling, dyeing, stickering, breaking in) three puzzles at once.
The smallest is the hardest: A Micro Master Pentultimate from Greg (Gregoire Pfennig).
When I had assembled it first, it felt like a solid block of nylon. :roll:
It took 20 minutes before I could turn the first face.
Given this start position, it doen't turn so badly now (after a few hours of turning, which is my way of tumbling).
It is by far the hardest puzzle building challenge ever for my 66 years old eyes and hands! :roll:
(I wrote first "was the hardest", but then thought about stickering the micro stickers. I have ordered glasses with magnifying lenses and I hope I can manage to glue the tiny stickers on with super glue)

Yes, I solved the Camouflage 3x3x3 (within a few hours after arrival). (It should be clear when you read my posts in the Camouflage threads) I needed a while to understand the nature of the Camouflage (i.e. that it is a bandaged /extended 4x4x4). After that I could solve it immediately and it was easier for me than the AI. I used the same (two) move sequences to construct swaps and 3-cycles of pieces.
As I said before, you should solve the AI (or at least the C4U 3x3x6) before the Camouflage.
I think that it is quite natural that we do not see many posts in the Camouflage solving thread, given the fact that it is easy enough solving it with AI methods.
A tutorial or video will be not so easy, because there are (probably) 24 different colour schemes around.

Back to the Bandaged 3x3x3: It is absolutely amazing how creative and productive Burgo and you are. :o
What does Kevin's signature say? "Hopelessly addicted to puzzles!!"
"Bandaged puzzles" in your case! :lol:

@Burgo: I think it is mostly due to your outstanding visual memory that you are so good at solving bandaged puzzles of all kinds. It is hard for us less gifted to follow your speed. :lol: :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Solving the Bandaged 3x3x3
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 7:04 am 
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Hi friends,

Burgo: thank you for sharing your solution method. So fast, I'm impressed.
The bandaged 3+ :

Put the white face to the left and blue is top. Then turn:
[spoiler]
U' R2 U' R'

you get this:
Attachment:
bandaged3ps.jpg
bandaged3ps.jpg [ 26.25 KiB | Viewed 5025 times ]


This is the startposition for many posibilities.
[spoiler]
CPS ( L' U R U' L U R' U') and Sunes
Strategy
Memorize this. Bulid left 3x2x1 block.
Bulild the right 2x3x1 block of two 2x1x1 bars and the yellow/orange piece inside.
Build the blue/yellow/orange block on top ( after U2 it is on correct place)



It's not too hard, but a little bit harder and very different to the bandaged 3.
Cheers,
Andrea


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 Post subject: Re: Solving the Bandaged 3x3x3
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 7:41 am 
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Hi Andrea,
I just made another few solves and noticed that I got lucky on my first solve, so I edited my method with a sequence for permuting corners. I also added a more clear way to finish the orientation of the edges because I suspect that it might not be as intuitive for others.

I will try solving it with your method.

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1st 3x3 solve Oct 2010 (Even though I lived through the 80s).
PB 3x3 55sec Jan 2011 (When I was a kid 1:30 was speedcubing so I'm stoked).
1st 3x3 Earth (nemesis) solve Jan 2011 My You Tube (Now has ALLCrazy 3X3 Planets with Reduction)


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 Post subject: Re: Solving the Bandaged 3x3x3
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 10:58 am 
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Hi Burgo and other

Some additional sequences for my bandaged 3+ method.

Burgo wrote:
I will try solving it with your method.

I hope my description was clear enough. I had some solves with this method.

(U M') x 4 flip 4 edges
(U' M') x 4 flip 4 edges
both together flip u/l u/r edge.

This sequence is not necessary:
LR' F L'R U2 LR' F L' R = 3 cycle of edges with flipping.
It can replaces through left and right sune.

A little bit hard is the turning of corners because the sune turns 3 corners in the same direction.

In my opinion the bandaged 3 is a little bit like Bermuda Mercury and
the bandaged 3+ is a little bit like Bermuda Venus.
Much fun with this.

Cheers,
Andrea


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 Post subject: Re: Solving the Bandaged 3x3x3
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 8:29 pm 
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Hi Friends,

Today I will reveal a new idea: Flying Carpets. The puzzle will be presented in the scrambled state for you to solve.
EDIT (for clarity):
This is a new experimental concept that I am trying:

My intention is that this puzzle isn’t about `solving to a known state`. I intend it to be a bit more like an `assembly puzzle + twisty puzzle` where the solved state is hidden, or ambiguous, and is part of the concept. Where a particular solved `carpet pattern` is not important, nor is it `the solution`. That’s why it has been given in a scrambled state. The reason for 4 photographs is only to avoid confusion of the configuration. The solution is the same as other twisty puzzles: `All faces are one colour (untiled being neutral in this case)`. Note: The colours of the faces, determined by the centres, should be obvious.

In this case, let’s just give it a few weeks, or enough time for the thread to get away from the original post before we post `patterns for the carpets`. In the end I think it doesn't matter if states are known, because it affects the challenge very little, it’s more of a philosophical point. After a few weeks I would expect that it would be OK to discuss specific patterns and numbers of reachable states, etc. I certainly don’t want to discourage this conversation, in time.

Even I don’t know the original state: I have a pretty good idea of the original state, but when I was designing it I made a few final alterations, followed by scrambles until I found `a perfect fit`, then I photographed it and kept it that way.. I never returned it and don't remember `exactly` which one it is (because I tried quite a few subtle changes). The solved state is any pattern (and that's why I didn't record it and intentionally tried to forget it). So I’m actually in the same boat as everybody else.
Attachment:
Flying Carpets.jpg
Flying Carpets.jpg [ 1.29 MiB | Viewed 4963 times ]
After many hours of twisting I have still been unable to solve the Flying Carpets (The best I have got is everything except 2 corners unorientated, and I have got there a few times). It reminded me of a twisty puzzle version of the Bedlam Cube. So I unbandaged the troublemaker to make Unbandaged Flying Carpets, so that the puzzle is accessible to a wider audience. In this state it took much less effort to solve and made for an interesting puzzle. The concept is still the same:
Attachment:
Unbandaged Flying Carpets.jpg
Unbandaged Flying Carpets.jpg [ 1.28 MiB | Viewed 4842 times ]
@Andrea, from your setup position on the Bandaged 3+ you can use FURU'R'F' or (M'U)x3 U (MU)x3 U to flip edges as well. It's also not necessary that the Sune must go in the same direction? I've had quite a few cases where this is so, with the various bandaging, but your setup for this cube is OK. I liked solving with your method, but it's hard to remember the pattern, I think my way might be easier this time. Did you notice the similarities between my method for the Bandaged 3+ and my revised Bandaged-3 method?

Cheers,
Burgo.

_________________
1st 3x3 solve Oct 2010 (Even though I lived through the 80s).
PB 3x3 55sec Jan 2011 (When I was a kid 1:30 was speedcubing so I'm stoked).
1st 3x3 Earth (nemesis) solve Jan 2011 My You Tube (Now has ALLCrazy 3X3 Planets with Reduction)


Last edited by Burgo on Sun Nov 11, 2012 1:11 am, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Solving the Bandaged 3x3x3
PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 3:05 am 
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Edited to no longer spoil the fun.


Last edited by wolf_II on Sat Nov 10, 2012 4:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Solving the Bandaged 3x3x3
PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 3:20 am 
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Why are you posting a `possible solution`? How did you come by it? Or how do you know it's correct? If you are solving to it, great. I don't want to stop the fun, or sound aggressive :) , but you must see that it `could` spoil, or confuse (without any qualification of how it was derived).

PS If you `can` solve to it, it is a solution. I would like to know how many states are reachable in the end though.

EDIT (for clarity):
I want to apologise to Wolf_II because I really didn't want my post to sound aggressive. But, in this case, I buried the format for a reason, I didn't want people to be `solving to a known state`, (which I’m not sure if his state was a reachable state or not). It’s my fault because I didn’t clarify my intentions in the original post.

I hope you can see that if `the cat’s out of the bag` with that concept, then the puzzle is a different challenge. Ultimately it will be, and all the possible solutions will be known, but for the start (a few weeks) if we can keep it a bit of a secret it would be good (only because we can’t hide spoiler photos).

It was the statement `Possible Solution` that I didn't understand. He didn’t write: `I solved it` or `I got to this solution by `this means`. I just didn't understand his post and my confusion sounded like scalding. When I said I didn’t want to stop the fun, I meant his fun too. I want to encourage solutions, it’s a solving thread afterall.

Cheers,
Burgo.

_________________
1st 3x3 solve Oct 2010 (Even though I lived through the 80s).
PB 3x3 55sec Jan 2011 (When I was a kid 1:30 was speedcubing so I'm stoked).
1st 3x3 Earth (nemesis) solve Jan 2011 My You Tube (Now has ALLCrazy 3X3 Planets with Reduction)


Last edited by Burgo on Sat Nov 10, 2012 8:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Solving the Bandaged 3x3x3
PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 11:45 am 
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Ok so I've finally received my spudger so i can add and remove pieces without too much danger of me requiring hospital treatment, and thought i'd join the fun :lol:

I've tried a couple of the easy designs and have spent most of the day fiddling with them, and can reliably solve a couple of them now (with a little help from rline :D)

and now i've created this:

Image
Image

I found it difficult even to scramble, and solving it is basically impossible for me at them moment - I don't know if any others wish to try it.
I guess it should have a name - lets go with the only thing i could come up with - Mr T (because there are 2 T shapes on it :roll: )

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 Post subject: Re: Solving the Bandaged 3x3x3
PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 3:40 pm 
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Well i appear to have 'wasted' my entire Saturday on these, but i have figured out (with a little help) how to do the 2-bar 4, 3 Slices, Fuse Cube, Big Block, and stalactites. i would have tried the 1x1x3 block but i can't seem to find that in this thread? If anyone can point me to that i'd be grateful... i hope i haven't just missd it in the thread :oops:

I managed to solve the stalactites all by myself using what i'd learned, which is always nice - although i did have a brief panic attack when i though i had solved it, but it turned out i had 2 corners rotated. As it turned out though that wasn't too difficult to fix.

very fun day!

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 Post subject: Re: Solving the Bandaged 3x3x3
PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 8:04 pm 
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I have amended my Flying Carpets post (and my response to Wolf_II) to clarify my intentions and avoid confusion.

Personally, I’m having a lot of trouble solving it, and in my attempt to make it `hard enough` I might have overdone it!! But it definately has `the feel` to it that I wanted, it doesn't `feel` like a twisty puzzle at all, more like an assembly puzzle.

Sorry Martywolfman I'm too preoccupied to try your puzzle at the moment! But the 1x1x3 block just has a [corner, edge, corner] bandaged into a 1x1x3 block.

EDIT: I made a second edit to the Flying Carpets^^ to add an easier unbandaged version as well.
Cheers,
Burgo.

_________________
1st 3x3 solve Oct 2010 (Even though I lived through the 80s).
PB 3x3 55sec Jan 2011 (When I was a kid 1:30 was speedcubing so I'm stoked).
1st 3x3 Earth (nemesis) solve Jan 2011 My You Tube (Now has ALLCrazy 3X3 Planets with Reduction)


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 Post subject: Re: Solving the Bandaged 3x3x3
PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 2:44 am 
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Hi Martywolfman,

I tried your Mr T this afternoon. I might have to rename the thread ratemypuzzledotcom :lol: .. It is almost unscramblable, but sometimes those have an interest factor all of their own. My `Stalagmites and Stalactites` is a bit like that. It's kind of on the easy end and shares similar properties to my 3 Bar & 3 Bar Clock.

[ I had to find a 3cycle for the corners (and a corner-edge block / edge 2+2swap):
URB>DRF>DLF [Red U, White F]: U (R2 U R2 U' R2) D (R2 U R2 U' R2) D'U'
ULB<>URB + UB<>UF [Red U, White F]: U (R2 U R2 U' R2) U'D (R2 U' R2 U R2) U'D'
And if you understand the kind of thing I'm doing with the corner 3cycle you can untangle and permute your blocks.
The edges you can just do with [Red U, White F]: M' U2 M U2.
]

I'm glad your having fun!
Cheers,
Burgo.

_________________
1st 3x3 solve Oct 2010 (Even though I lived through the 80s).
PB 3x3 55sec Jan 2011 (When I was a kid 1:30 was speedcubing so I'm stoked).
1st 3x3 Earth (nemesis) solve Jan 2011 My You Tube (Now has ALLCrazy 3X3 Planets with Reduction)


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 Post subject: Re: Solving the Bandaged 3x3x3
PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 6:37 am 
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Burgo wrote:
I But the 1x1x3 block just has a [corner, edge, corner] bandaged into a 1x1x3 block.



I suspected that was the case, but wasn't entirely certain, thanks. In that case i can already solve that, as it's just one half of the Siamese cube i have, which i can already solve.

I'm struggling with the unbandaged big block at the moment. I'm struggling to permute the corners properly. I'm assuming the unbadaged part of the big block must come into play somehow, but it's frustrating me...for now... :D

I can get 2 in easily enough, but the four remaining aren't in a position that will swap with the algorithms i know currently. I have got it down to 3 on one occasion, more luck, trial and error than anything else, but then they all got moved again while trying to solve the remaining 3, hehe.

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 Post subject: Re: Solving the Bandaged 3x3x3
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 6:01 am 
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These puzzles are very interesting:
bandaged fortress,
double block,
unbandaged big block

Now, I try the Alcatraz.
OMG , this is extremely hard.


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 Post subject: Re: Solving the Bandaged 3x3x3
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 6:37 am 
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Hi Andrea,

Yes, Alcatraz is in my `very hard` difficulty rating, if you make one of those you know what you're in for 8-) . Did you notice I made a difficulty rating at the start of the first post in the thread? To begin, it's good to just try to move between the 3 states in the pictures, that is a pretty decent challenge in itself, and it will give you a good feel for the properties of the puzzle. The name suits it, yes? Also, it's built on a 2x2x2 rock :) .

Cheers,
Burgo.

_________________
1st 3x3 solve Oct 2010 (Even though I lived through the 80s).
PB 3x3 55sec Jan 2011 (When I was a kid 1:30 was speedcubing so I'm stoked).
1st 3x3 Earth (nemesis) solve Jan 2011 My You Tube (Now has ALLCrazy 3X3 Planets with Reduction)


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 Post subject: Re: Solving the Bandaged 3x3x3
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 6:56 am 
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Hi Burgo,

Quote:
Did you notice I made a difficulty rating at the start of the first post in the thread?


Yes,I read the difficult rating. Today my first time, I have enough courage to get one of the difficult.

Quote:
To begin, it's good to just try to move between the 3 states in the pictures


Which pictures, which states ?
In the posting I saw only variants of Alcatraz.

Quote:
The name suits it, yes? Also, it's built on a 2x2x2 rock


Yes. Perfect name for this.

Cheers,
Andrea


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 Post subject: Re: Solving the Bandaged 3x3x3
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 7:10 am 
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Andrea wrote:
Which pictures, which states ?
In the posting I saw only variants of Alcatraz.

It has 3 configuration variants that I have called Alcatraz, Alcatraz Lockdown and Alcatraz Solitary. If you ignore the colours and just move between the states (the patterns of the blocks), it is a good way to become familiar with the puzzle. They are 3 different puzzles, but they have the same configuration of blocks when uncoloured. The difficulty increases when you have to make the harder state.

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1st 3x3 solve Oct 2010 (Even though I lived through the 80s).
PB 3x3 55sec Jan 2011 (When I was a kid 1:30 was speedcubing so I'm stoked).
1st 3x3 Earth (nemesis) solve Jan 2011 My You Tube (Now has ALLCrazy 3X3 Planets with Reduction)


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 Post subject: Re: Solving the Bandaged 3x3x3
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 7:19 am 
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Hi Burgo,

Quote:
It has 3 configuration variants that I have called Alcatraz, Alcatraz Lockdown and Alcatraz Solitary.


Yes, I saw this.

[spoiler]
(F2R2)*3
transforms to the first variant.
LR'L
transforms to the third variant.

Ok , now I know what you mean.
Thank you.

Cheers,
Andrea


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 Post subject: Re: Solving the Bandaged 3x3x3
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 7:23 am 
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Have a closer look at the variants :) . There is MUCH more to twisting between the 3 `shape patterns` than those simple sequences! It is actually quite difficult, much more than it first appears.

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1st 3x3 solve Oct 2010 (Even though I lived through the 80s).
PB 3x3 55sec Jan 2011 (When I was a kid 1:30 was speedcubing so I'm stoked).
1st 3x3 Earth (nemesis) solve Jan 2011 My You Tube (Now has ALLCrazy 3X3 Planets with Reduction)


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 Post subject: Re: Solving the Bandaged 3x3x3
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 6:07 pm 
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Burgo wrote:
Puzzle List and Difficulty Rating

A bit harder (use known sequences creatively):
Stalactites, Unbandaged Big Block,

:oops: :oops: :oops:
I knew I would come unstuck soon! I have solved all the easy ones on Burgo's list and with trepidation started on the "bit harder" ones. To my huge relief I even managed Stalactites! Riding this tidal wave of success, I decided to try Unbandaged Big Block and crashed to a halt!

I initially thought to reduce to the Big Block and then solve in the same way. BUT the parities caused by the reduction are proving rather tough! Initially tried my Big block system, position corners, orient corners with SUNE then do adjacent and opposite edge swaps to complete the puzzle - FAILED!!!

Tried the edges first method and then could not permute corners (much less orient them).

Run out of ideas just now! Not really experienced at this! My aim has always been to learn as few algorithms as possible! So I wanted to use what I already had but doesn't seem possible just now! Any gentle hints how I can adapt an existing algorithm as Burgo first suggested?

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 Post subject: Re: Solving the Bandaged 3x3x3
PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 1:22 am 
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Haha. identical to what happened to me :D. There I was thinking i was getting good at them, then bam, one i can't figure out at all at the moment, the unbandaged big block. I had exactly the same plan to solve it too (because it worked for the stalactites!)

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 Post subject: Re: Solving the Bandaged 3x3x3
PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 2:35 am 
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Hi Unbandaged Big Block sufferers :D !

If you want a hint (careful, each line will reveal a larger hint):
[ You have to use the unbandaged part to accomplish your goals.
(It wasn't there before, it must have made the change possible).
Being a corner issue, you need to move corners.
Do something you know in a way that doesn't include the unbandaged block, and then rebuild it: including the unbandaged block this time.
]

If you want a solution:
[ This is what I did, probably not real efficient, but it worked.
2x2x2 block in DBL, unbandaged 1x2x2 block in DFL] (swaps 2 corners on UR):
(RUR'U')x3 -------(F2L algo to remove DRF corner)
RU R'U R U2 R' ---(Sune to reorientate the removed corner)
U' -----------------(setup)
F'UF U2 F'UF -----(F2L algo to reinsert DRF corner)
Another way: (R'FRF')x3 (RUR'U')x3 generates a 3cycle [UBR>UFL>UBL]
Depends what you're used to, if you know F2L you might like the first one, if you prefer EPS you might like the second one.
]

Kevin, if you can't orientate the corners with 2 faces I put a little doc together for you, and anyone else who chooses to read it, it's about the versatility of Sune. It explains how to use Sune to permute edges, pure and impure & orientate corners, pure and impure & orientate LL edges and how to use it to build commutators: https://skydrive.live.com/redir?resid=F ... Ao60JDY47g

Cheers,
Burgo.

_________________
1st 3x3 solve Oct 2010 (Even though I lived through the 80s).
PB 3x3 55sec Jan 2011 (When I was a kid 1:30 was speedcubing so I'm stoked).
1st 3x3 Earth (nemesis) solve Jan 2011 My You Tube (Now has ALLCrazy 3X3 Planets with Reduction)


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 Post subject: Re: Solving the Bandaged 3x3x3
PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 5:06 am 
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Hi friends,
The unbandaged big block, I solve the corners with (upside down) CPS like a bermuda neptune. I flip the edges like "lars petrus" method. All other pieces like big block.

:!: Turn corners with sunes is an important technique. It is described here:http://lar5.com/cube/fas6.html

But there is a better description in net, but i don't find it.
I memorized : if 4 corners are turned put the yellow(color of up face) faces to the left.
If 2 corners are turned put the yellow face to front.
Make a sune.
After this , three corners are turned.
Many crazy cubes, bermuda cubes, bandaged cubes, I solved with this technique.
This is an important basic for puzzlers.

But I'm desperate with the alcatraz. I tried many hours to find sequences.
I solved the alcatraz with random :( .

The problems:
Two corners are turned.
Three corners are permuted.

Solve the 2x1x1 blocks is not the problem. Flip two edges, or turn 3 corners is not a problem.

The alcatraz is a monster. I cannot solve it.

Cheers,
Andrea

PS:
I saw, that Burgo posted a similar link.


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 Post subject: Re: Solving the Bandaged 3x3x3
PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 5:30 am 
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burgo - the first two lines of hints are exactly what i already assumed, and have been trying - IT just hasn't helped me solve it yet. I didnt read any more. i will try to figure it again later :D

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 Post subject: Re: Solving the Bandaged 3x3x3
PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 3:56 pm 
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Burgo,

Thanks for the progressive hints! I hope I will have time to try it again tomorrow!
Thanks for the document - I have downloaded it but not looked at it yet! Really would prefer to work it out myself but I suspect that being just a junior/beginner at cubes, I may need the help you have provided!! :(

This is all a whole lot of fun!! 8-)

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 Post subject: Re: Solving the Bandaged 3x3x3
PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 1:13 pm 
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Hi friends,

I solved Burgo's Alcatraz.
Most difficult was to turn 2 corners.
This small nice sequence turns two corners:
[spoiler
U' R U R' U F U' R2 F' R F R F' U' R' U R
U' R U R' U F U' R2 F' R F R U' R' U R U F' U'

]
Cheers,
Andrea


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 Post subject: Re: Solving the Bandaged 3x3x3
PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 1:27 pm 
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Hi friends,
36 movements is too much.
I reduced the sequence to 12 movements.
But this sequence makes a 3cycle of corners , too.
So it's recommended to turn the corners at first, then permute the corners.

The new sequence:
[spoiler
R' U' R U F U' R' U R U F' U'
]

Cheers,
Andrea


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 Post subject: Re: Solving the Bandaged 3x3x3
PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 1:41 pm 
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Burgo wrote:
Kevin, if you can't orientate the corners with 2 faces I put a little doc together for you, and anyone else who chooses to read it, it's about the versatility of Sune. It explains how to use Sune to permute edges, pure and impure & orientate corners, pure and impure & orientate LL edges and how to use it to build commutators: https://skydrive.live.com/redir?resid=F ... Ao60JDY47g

Hi Burgo,

Still working on this blasted cube! :evil:
I did look at your document - really nicely produced and I was immensely pleased to see that all the things you can do with SUNE and Anti SUNE were already in my repertoire!

At the moment my problem is not the orientation of the corners. I can do this with ease in a matter of seconds - I actually can't get to the point where I need to orient them! :oops: At the moment I am actually trying to permute the corners. I have 3 or 4 techniques to do it and all but one requires there to be 2 opposite unbandaged faces. The one that I use that uses 2 adjacent unbandaged faces is proving impossible for me because it swaps 2 pairs of 2 corners. I am fairly sure that it should be possible to do the sequence 2 or 3 times in a row to get what I need but I'm finding too many pieces move each time to work out a plan!!

Hopefully I'll get it "sune" :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Solving the Bandaged 3x3x3
PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 9:16 pm 
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Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2011 3:17 am
Location: Australia
Hi Andrea,

Congratulations! I will post my Solution for Alcatraz (it isn't refined yet: by finding critical moves and cropping the algs- so please excuse any clunks- it's just what I found `raw`):

[ Standard Alcatraz (picture 1) > Alcatraz Lockdown Functionality (picture 3): F R U' R' U R' F R'
Alcatraz Lockdown Functionality (picture 3) > Alcatraz Lockdown (picture 2): (F2 R2)x3
Alcatraz Lockdown Functionality (picture 3) > Alcatraz Solitary (picture 4): R F2 U' R U'

All sequences from the Standard Alcatraz configuration [Green F, Orange R, Yellow U]
Step 0: 1x1x2 blocks must be placed in a 3cyclable state (intuitive).
Step 1: 3cycle corners: (R2 F2 R2) F U F2 U' F' R' F2 R F U F2 U' F'
Step 2: 3cycle 1x1x2 blocks: (R' F' U F U' F R' F) (R F' R U' R U R' F')
Step 3: Orientate 2 edges: (R2 F2 R2) (F U F2 U' R') (F' U' R2 U R) (F2 R2 F2)
Step 4: Orientate 2 corners [UR]: [(U'RUR')(UF'U'F) (R2 F2 R2)] (F U F2 U' R2 F' R U F U' R F') [R' (UF'U'F)(R'FRF') R]
& mirrored [UF]: [(UF'U'F)(U'RUR') (F2 R2 F2)] (R' U' R2 U F2 R F' U' R' U F' R) [F (U'RUR')(FR'F'R) F']
]

Please don't be too critical^^. It was a difficult task and I had limited time :) .
Cheers,
Burgo.

_________________
1st 3x3 solve Oct 2010 (Even though I lived through the 80s).
PB 3x3 55sec Jan 2011 (When I was a kid 1:30 was speedcubing so I'm stoked).
1st 3x3 Earth (nemesis) solve Jan 2011 My You Tube (Now has ALLCrazy 3X3 Planets with Reduction)


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