Online since 2002. Over 3300 puzzles, 2600 worldwide members, and 270,000 messages.

TwistyPuzzles.com Forum

It is currently Sat Apr 19, 2014 10:56 pm

All times are UTC - 5 hours



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 95 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Freewill does not and cannot exist
PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 10:25 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2012 8:05 pm
From Oxford English Dictionary
free will, n.
Pronunciation: Brit. /ˌfriː ˈwɪl/ , U.S. /ˌfri ˈwɪl/
1. Spontaneous or unconstrained will; unforced choice; (also) inclination to act without suggestion from others. Esp. in of one's (own) free will and similar expressions.

2. The power of an individual to make free choices, not determined by divine predestination, the laws of physical causality, fate, etc. Also: the doctrine that human beings possess this power and are hence able to direct and bear responsibility for their own actions.

About a year and a half ago, the idea that freewill is nothing but an illusion came crashing down on me. It was not on this day that I was introduced to this idea, but rather that I realized that it may, in fact, hold water. Let us define freewill as the human capacity to influence one’s own actions completely of one’s own volition. By this definition freewill cannot exist in the universe we know. If you take an action, it has consequences. These consequences influence the world you acted in, often in unpredictable ways. Likewise, there were actions that had taken place before you took your own action, each with its own consequences. One of these actions had an influence on you and your decision to take this action, instead of another action.

Everything you do, you do for a reason. If you decide to ask someone to be your spouse, I'd hope you'd have some good reasons. Let's say you want to marry this person because you love them. Other than "they complete you" what reason do you have for loving this person? Because they take care of you without you even having to ask? They might do that because they love you. And the reasons for that all have their own reasons, and on and on and on. You didn't choose to love them. Every event can be explained by some causation, even if we don't know what that causation is, and each causation has its own causation, leading back to the beginning of the universe.

If you're still not convinced, let's delve deeper into the decision making process. When you decide on something you are weighing different options. But certain options that are totally viable may never occur to you. You don't choose your thoughts. Your choices are based on the thoughts you have, and to say you are responsible for your choices would be to say you are responsible for your thoughts, and to say you are responsible for your thoughts would require planning on what thoughts you're going to have next, and I don't know how this could be possible.

I think I was so reluctant to accept that freewill does not exist for two main reasons:

First, if there is no freewill, how can we hold criminals morally accountable for their actions? I was guided to this answer by an Oxford lecture with Sam Harris and Richard Dawkins: We can't.
BUT THERE WAS A POSSIBILITY FOR MURDERERS TO NOT COMMIT THEIR CRIMES. IT EVEN TOOK LESS EFFORT TO NOT KILL PEOPLE.
That's true, but I see the universes where these crimes were and were not committed as two real parts of the same system: our multiverse. That doesn't mean we should set murderers free just because it's not their fault. As Sam put it, we would put hurricanes and earthquakes in prison if we could even though they do not have freewill. We would do so because they are destructive to the rest of society.

Second, if we as humans do not possess freewill, where does our humanity lie? What does it mean to be human, and what happens to individuality without freewill? After all, all our heroes are people we respect for the choices they made in life. We probably wouldn't respect Gandhi as much if we thought everything he did was predetermined by some external force and he didn't actually have a say. Here is where I had my breakthrough. The idea of "humanity" is merely another human invention. It is born of the mythology that the universe was created for us. This mythology holds strong even for many atheists who claim not to believe the earth was created for us by a benevolent god. Humans rarely ponder the potential for our future evolved forms (if the human race still has the capacity to evolve). We have a tendency to view ourselves as the end product of the universe. We are merely A product, as is our consciousness.

We don't need freewill to appreciate life, and it doesn't rob us of all conceptions of individuality. You might appreciate the beauty of a flower, and the fact that the flower grew as a product of its environment, not of its own freewill, does not take away from that.

Here's the bottom line: We are special not because we are human, but because we exist. Look around you. There's stuff. Stuff exists. Isn't it amazing that anything exists? Even without freewill, we have the realm of consciousness at our disposal to quench all our existential thirsts.

_________________
YO WUDDUP GRAPE ICE CREAM


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Freewill does not and cannot exist
PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 10:44 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 29, 2010 9:25 pm
Location: Albuquerque, NM
Heaven forbid that we may make choices based on our circumstances and imperfect reasoning!


I want to sprout wings and fly.

Evolution has not given the human species wings, going back and back generation upon generation all the way back to the beginning of life on Earth and beyond.

Therefore, I cannot fly because nature has not granted me that ability.

Therefore, I must not have freewill.

Huh?

_________________
Image
My YouTube Channel


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Freewill does not and cannot exist
PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 10:44 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 29, 2011 2:56 pm
Location: New York
1. Woah
2. Reading that and then looking at your signature made me laugh so hard i fell off my chair

_________________
My Youtube Channel of Custom Twisty Puzzles!
Recent videos: Master Axis Cube | 4x4x2 Solve | 3x3x3 Triangular Prism


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Freewill does not and cannot exist
PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 10:45 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2005 8:53 pm
Location: Los Angeles
I can see this getting way out of hand


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Freewill does not and cannot exist
PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 10:54 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 16, 2008 9:46 pm
Location: Littleton CO
Just to understand your logic here, if I choose to turn on a light, that isn’t freewill because the light exists?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Freewill does not and cannot exist
PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 10:58 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 29, 2010 9:25 pm
Location: Albuquerque, NM
eye2eye wrote:
Just to understand your logic here, if I choose to turn on a light, that isn’t freewill because the light exists?


No, I think he means that since the room is dark then your need for light is a human illusion and therefore inconsequentially nonexistent because it's only a meaningless predictable reaction that you were brought about to make. Therefore, freewill does not exist. :roll:

_________________
Image
My YouTube Channel


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Freewill does not and cannot exist
PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 11:00 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2012 8:05 pm
Modern-Day Warrior wrote:
eye2eye wrote:
Just to understand your logic here, if I choose to turn on a light, that isn’t freewill because the light exists?


No, I think he means that since the room is dark then your need for light is a human illusion and therefore inconsequentially nonexistent because it's only a meaningless predictable reaction that you were brought about to make. Therefore, freewill does not exist. :roll:

This.

Modern-Day Warrior wrote:
Heaven forbid that we may make choices based on our circumstances and imperfect reasoning!


I want to sprout wings and fly.

Evolution has not given the human species wings, going back and back generation upon generation all the way back to the beginning of life on Earth and beyond.

Therefore, I cannot fly because nature has not granted me that ability.

Therefore, I must not have freewill.

Huh?

lolwut

_________________
YO WUDDUP GRAPE ICE CREAM


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Freewill does not and cannot exist
PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 11:16 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 16, 2008 9:46 pm
Location: Littleton CO
Modern-Day Warrior wrote:
eye2eye wrote:
Just to understand your logic here, if I choose to turn on a light, that isn’t freewill because the light exists?


No, I think he means that since the room is dark then your need for light is a human illusion and therefore inconsequentially nonexistent because it's only a meaningless predictable reaction that you were brought about to make. Therefore, freewill does not exist. :roll:

I could go to another room, get a flashlight, stand there until the sun rises. I have a choice, do I not?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Freewill does not and cannot exist
PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 11:24 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2012 8:05 pm
eye2eye wrote:
Modern-Day Warrior wrote:
eye2eye wrote:
Just to understand your logic here, if I choose to turn on a light, that isn’t freewill because the light exists?


No, I think he means that since the room is dark then your need for light is a human illusion and therefore inconsequentially nonexistent because it's only a meaningless predictable reaction that you were brought about to make. Therefore, freewill does not exist. :roll:

I could go to another room, get a flashlight, stand there until the sun rises. I have a choice, do I not?

But when do you ever consciously go through that decision making process? And ultimately you wouldn't do that because the lightswitch is more convenient. The only reason you would get a flashlight would be in an attempt to disprove my point, and if you did that you would only prove my point.

_________________
YO WUDDUP GRAPE ICE CREAM


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Freewill does not and cannot exist
PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 11:36 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 16, 2008 9:46 pm
Location: Littleton CO
I have 2 electrical outlets next to my bed. I have three different plugs that I rotate plugging in. I would say, about every other night I choose between plugging in my lamp or using my phone as a flashlight. I also could make the choice to get a surge protector with more plugs.

I don’t think that picking a convenient option means a lack of free will, I think it just means the option was convenient.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Freewill does not and cannot exist
PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 11:53 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:25 pm
Location: Finland
So. There is no freewill, because we make decisions with reasons behind them? Um...

I must say, I expected you to use the "deterministic universe" card.

What about free will, are you going to take that away from me too?

Also, discussing morality in a system with no free will is redundant. If the criminals don't have any influence upon their actions, the law enforcers lack it too.

_________________
My pen-and-paper puzzles


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Freewill does not and cannot exist
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 12:13 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2012 8:05 pm
eye2eye wrote:
I have 2 electrical outlets next to my bed. I have three different plugs that I rotate plugging in. I would say, about every other night I choose between plugging in my lamp or using my phone as a flashlight. I also could make the choice to get a surge protector with more plugs.

I don’t think that picking a convenient option means a lack of free will, I think it just means the option was convenient.

I worded that poorly. I should have said that under normal circumstances you would never go to get a flashlight to use in a room with a working light because that thought would never have occurred to you. I'll revisit the highlight of the OP: You have no control over the kind of thoughts you have. To suggest that you can control your thoughts would imply that you are thinking about what your next thought will be, but that's not the case. Your thoughts merely appear to you, and you are the conscious observer of your experience.

It makes absolutely no sense to say that you can decide what your next thought will be. Your thoughts just occur to you. Because decisions are based on these thoughts, over which you have no control, there is no freewill.

Coaster1235 wrote:
discussing morality in a system with no free will is redundant. If the criminals don't have any influence upon their actions, the law enforcers lack it too.

I disagree. I think moral truth can still exist and be pursued without freewill. In this post I'm completely stealing ideas from Sam Harris but it's to make a point. If you establish certain extreme baselines for what is immoral, you can work toward moral high ground. You can, for example, look at the Taliban culture, in which a man whose daughter is raped may murder her for the sake of honor. This is clearly an immoral act, and to say that morality is subjective is really a copout. I think that there are a lot of moral questions that we don't yet have the answers to, but that doesn't meant they're sophomoric questions without answers.

_________________
YO WUDDUP GRAPE ICE CREAM


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Freewill does not and cannot exist
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 12:28 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2009 8:54 pm
Location: Bay Area, California
I'm on the fence about whether or not freewill exists. Your argument makes an unfounded assumption though. That is, when you're discussing causation, you say everything has a cause, and that cause has a cause, reductio ad absurdum.

So lets turn this into symbols.

You say that given a function, f(), and some set of inputs, i0, i1, i2... then the result, r can be expressed as:

r = f(i1, i2, i3, ...)

And you assume that the function f() is always consistent and always returns the same results for a given set of inputs. If that is true then I don't think free will exists either.

But the burden for claiming free will does not exist is in arguing / proving that there are no random functions. If there is a truly random process in nature (say, wave function collapse) then you can make a random function where given the same inputs, the output can vary. In that way you can build free will by using these random functions.

Quantum mechanics is a good candidate for a physical process that seems random. Ignoring everything else, Heisenberg's uncertainty principle alone seems to imply that every outcome has a minimum amount of randomness.

There is an entire branch of philosophy around these ideas. You should check out https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mind and some of the books by Roger Penrose on the subject (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emperor%27s_New_Mind and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadows_of_the_Mind).

Mind philosopher Rick Grush has an extremely good analysis of the arguments and does a very good job of breaking down the various logical steps here: http://mind.ucsd.edu/papers/penrose/penrosehtml/penrose-text.html


So I think you should revise your statement to say "if there are no non-algorithm / random processes then free will does not and can not exist". Fortunately for us there almost certainly are random processes.

Edit:

Also check out https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deterministic_system_%28philosophy%29

And just to undermined my own argument, people with short term memory loss often experience what others would describe as a "loop" where they say the same things and ask the same questions with the same inflections in their voice and everything for hours on end. Makes you realize that for any given situation there is less randomness involved than we sometimes like to think. Radiolab described this in a really great episodes of theirs called "Loops". See http://www.radiolab.org/2011/oct/04/. Skip to 7:00 for the start of the section I'm talking about.

_________________
Prior to using my real name I posted under the account named bmenrigh.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Freewill does not and cannot exist
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 12:41 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2012 8:05 pm
bmenrigh wrote:
But the burden for claiming free will does not exist is in arguing / proving that there are no random functions. If there is a truly random process in nature (say, wave function collapse) then you can make a random function where given the same inputs, the output can vary. In that way you can build free will by using these random functions.

Quantum mechanics is a good candidate for a physical process that seems random. Ignoring everything else, Heisenberg's uncertainty principle alone seems to imply that every outcome has a minimum amount of randomness.

If your choice is based on randomness how does that change the fact that you don't have power over it?

This is a common bait-and-switch people make when talking about freewill. It's actually the third time I've heard it this month. Not to bag on you but it's a common idea people use to support the notion of freewill, but actually it doesn't help its case at all.

_________________
YO WUDDUP GRAPE ICE CREAM


Last edited by murderouslyrics on Thu Jun 28, 2012 4:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Freewill does not and cannot exist
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 12:42 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2009 8:54 pm
Location: Bay Area, California
I'll do a second post here because this one doesn't really fit in with my previous one.

Assume free will really doesn't exist. Now what? It turns out it doesn't matter and we should continue to go about our lives doing whatever we want since we have the illusion of free will and nothing we can do will change our pre-determined actions.

That is, if we really are along for the ride then even thinking about lacking free will is a waste of time. I'd tell you to stop thinking about it but obviously you will or you wont and there would be nothing you or I could do about it.

A far more interesting topic to reminisce about (to me anyways) is not whether we have free will or not but whether there is any way for us to know if "reality" as we perceive it is anywhere close to the "real" "reality". See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_in_a_vat aka "The Matrix".

_________________
Prior to using my real name I posted under the account named bmenrigh.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Freewill does not and cannot exist
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 12:48 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2009 8:54 pm
Location: Bay Area, California
murderouslyrics wrote:
If your choice is based on randomness how does that change the fact that you don't have power over it?

This is a common bait-and-switch people make when talking about freewill. It's actually the third time I've heard it this month. Not to bag on you but it's a common idea people use to support the notion of freewill, but actually it doesn't help its case at all.

You're making assumptions again. When I say random I don't mean you have no influence over it. For example I do not mean that we make use of some sort of perfect binary coin flip where the outcome is uniform.

I'm talking about biased random functions where the random bias is based on our own physiology.

Here is an example. Suppose there is a function that selects a random color in some defined colorspace. A uniform random function would select all colors with equal probability. If I bias the function to favor red hues it's still random but less so. You could say I have exercised some of my free will by biasing the random function.

If you assume random means uniform and unbiased then again, we don't really have any free will. I did not imply that though.

_________________
Prior to using my real name I posted under the account named bmenrigh.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Freewill does not and cannot exist
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 12:52 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2006 5:32 pm
Location: Bay Area, CA
Careful with where this topic leads. Discussions of free will have traditionally been considered in a religious context and for historical reasons those have failed badly on this site so we'll avoid them.
Keeping to philosophy seems to be reasonable, but choose your examples with care and consider our younger members. Examples can be chosen that don't require exposing them to the less palatable aspects of human nature.

OK, enough from the Admin, the rest is just from member Dave:

Who or what is this "you" that may or may not have free will? Some brain research indicates there are a number of actors in your brain at war with each other and your ultimate action is determined by which part wins the internal battle. So part of you reaches for the cookie and the other part resists, valuing a better physique. Do you eat the cookie? It depends on which wins and this theory gives some basis for explaining how some people are more easily addicted than others (i.e. unable to "choose" to resist certain temptations). Are these deterministic actors, and will those battles always end up the same?

One could argue that free will is the process of your deliberation to take an action, which in turn is the act these different internal influences fighting it out.

So in this model, "you" is no single thing, and there is no "one" to have free will, just a mix of genetics and environment leading to eventual transference of energy.

So what is that internal dialog "I" hear in "my" mind then?

Dave

_________________
Image
LitwinPuzzles.com has info on my puzzles.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Freewill does not and cannot exist
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 1:06 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2012 8:05 pm
I'll leave these here because Sam is more eloquent than me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRIcbsRXQ0o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6oWft4mD10

Dave, I guess what you're saying connects to my idea that there is no "self". This is always a difficult discussion because we use language to explain ideas and our language is based on the conception that we are sovereign biological/cognitive entities, and I'm honestly too exhausted right now to write anymore tonight but I'll post more later.

_________________
YO WUDDUP GRAPE ICE CREAM


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Freewill does not and cannot exist
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 1:10 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2008 4:37 pm
Location: Canada
DLitwin wrote:
Who or what is this "you" that may or may not have free will? Some brain research indicates there are a number of actors in your brain at war with each other and your ultimate action is determined by which part wins the internal battle. So part of you reaches for the cookie and the other part resists, valuing a better physique. Do you eat the cookie? It depends on which wins and this theory gives some basis for explaining how some people are more easily addicted than others (i.e. unable to "choose" to resist certain temptations). Are these deterministic actors, and will those battles always end up the same?


Ha. All of me reaches for the first four cookies.
If I'm studying for exams, all of me eats all of them :wink:

_________________


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Freewill does not and cannot exist
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 1:31 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2009 8:54 pm
Location: Bay Area, California
murderouslyrics wrote:
I'll leave these here because Sam is more eloquent than me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRIcbsRXQ0o

In this video he makes a strawman argument and does not attack the notion of free will directly. In his "think of a person" example he argues that because we are not aware of all of the factors / inputs that went into a decision that means we didn't truly have control over it.

Yes that is true, we can not enumerate all of the inputs to the decision function. That does not imply that free will doesn't exist. It implies that we can't always invert the function (given a choice, what were the inputs). It also implies some inputs are unknown but that does not mean the result is unknown or deterministic.

In his argument that given some actions that have happened before, we can't actually change the path in some way to affect what happens in the future, his argument is essentially that we can't change it because the decision is again based on prior causes that we are not aware of. Just because previous actions are input into current decision functions doesn't mean there aren't also additional inputs to those functions that can influence the outcome.

His argument essentially implies that the output of one function is directly the input into the next:

d1 = f1(...)
d2 = f2(d1)

And assuming deterministic functions this again would imply there is no free will. The alternate construction:

d1 = f1(...)
d2 = f2(d1, ...)

Leaves plenty of room for free will.


The argument I think he's actually making is that there are many mental / unconscious factors that go into every choice that we make. I agree. He seems to imply though that we have no control over those unconscious factors (I disagree) and that every moment is determined completely from things we don't have control over (again, I disagree).

Sam is eloquent but his arguments are very poor.

Do we have 100% control over every action we take, at every moment? Absolutely not. That isn't my definition of free will though.

_________________
Prior to using my real name I posted under the account named bmenrigh.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Freewill does not and cannot exist
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 2:46 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 15, 2009 12:00 am
Location: Jarrow, England
At this moment, typing this sentence, I have no idea how I am going to finish it, either post some form of reasoned argument for or against free will, or just end the post now.

_________________
My Shapeways Shop: http://www.shapeways.com/shops/gus_shop

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Freewill does not and cannot exist
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 3:02 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2011 4:54 am
Quote:
Discussions of free will have traditionally been considered in a religious context and for historical reasons those have failed badly on this site so we'll avoid them.

Dave, to clarify, are you banning any form of discussion here involving something considered "religious", whether it's of the more traditional religious views or otherwise? Even if it's a novel, or uncommon idea?

_________________
Youtube Twisty Puzzling
Blogger Twisty Puzzling - Simple Solutions for Puzzling Twisties
Tutorials: Pitcher Octo-Star Cube | GERANIUM | Wheel of Wisdom


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Freewill does not and cannot exist
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 5:09 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2006 12:52 am
eye2eye wrote:
I have 2 electrical outlets next to my bed. I have three different plugs that I rotate plugging in. I would say, about every other night I choose between plugging in my lamp or using my phone as a flashlight. I also could make the choice to get a surge protector with more plugs.

I don’t think that picking a convenient option means a lack of free will, I think it just means the option was convenient.


As far as that is concerned someone with the opinion that free will doesn't exist could always start argumenting with quantum physics. If your choice is not about convenience at all, you are just driven by chance. Even if all decisions can happen with the stochastically exact same probability, one would just randomly happen.

I don't like talking about this free will or not thing too much though. I can't proove anyone saying that free will doesn't exist wrong. I don't even want to say that I wish they were wrong. I don't think about my actions in life this way and I don't really care. It seems to stressfull and doesn't lead anywhere.

I do however strongly dislike the possibility of everything's being determined. But since I believe in quantum physics and mere chance I can confidently reject that world view. So even if I couldn't really control my own actions because there was no such thing as free will, I would still rather have chance decide than living in a plot. The last paragraph doesn't really fit in the free-will-or-not category but has something to do with it I guess.

_________________
Life is simple.
eat. sleep. train. repeat.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Freewill does not and cannot exist
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 8:16 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 16, 2000 3:17 pm
Location: Hong Kong
rline wrote:
Quote:
Discussions of free will have traditionally been considered in a religious context and for historical reasons those have failed badly on this site so we'll avoid them.

Dave, to clarify, are you banning any form of discussion here involving something considered "religious", whether it's of the more traditional religious views or otherwise? Even if it's a novel, or uncommon idea?


Religion is frowned upon when it excites the exertion of ones willingness whether free or not to argue with others. If you decide you must bring religious views into the conversation, please remember we don't all have the same. Really what we don't want anyone else's views forced upon us, that is when the problems start.

Anything that crosses the respect/potentially arguementative line will be edited. Anything heavily volatile...... You can work that one out.

_________________
Rox's Rambling Blog
Katsmom's Puzzling Videos


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Freewill does not and cannot exist
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 8:36 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2012 8:05 pm
Before I post more I want to add that I think this debate is important because it drastically changes how we view ourselves and others. I feel that coming to terms with this worldview has made me a more understanding, more compassionate, more forgiving, and all around happier person. I have really come to see evil as more of a disease than anything, and for lack of a better phrase, to "hate the sin, not the sinner." I think Norway is on the right track with their prison system; prisons should exist to separate dangerous people from the rest of society, and I think their behavior can often be corrected, but I don't believe in punishing people because they "deserve" it.

_________________
YO WUDDUP GRAPE ICE CREAM


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Freewill does not and cannot exist
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 11:07 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jun 13, 2010 1:00 am
Location: Colorado
This goes hand in hand with what the future will be. If you think it's set in stone we must also not have free will. Since in my opinion the future can't change I must also not have free will.

But does it matter? Knowing you have free will or not should not change your character.

_________________
My Shapeways Shop
My YouTube Videos
My Museum Puzzles


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Freewill does not and cannot exist
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 11:37 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 7:37 pm
murderouslyrics wrote:
Freewill does not and cannot exist

I agree 100% and have argued the case many times.
In my opinion-
It's difficult to get your head round since we have a perception of freewill. This is not actual freewill but simply the belief that we possess it. That is why the subject of criminals gets complicated. It is true that there are none since they have no choice in what they do. However if someone attacks me I also have no choice but to respond as I do. My emotional response out weighs logical thought (ie the guy can't help it) and I get revenge or bring him to justice. Basically the perception of freewill is something we all have so it influences our actions in the same way as everything else. The bottom line is that we just do what we do because we have no choice. I am very happy with a world with no freewill but then of course I have no choice in the matter. Kettle marzipan biscuit.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Freewill does not and cannot exist
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 5:43 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2009 5:13 pm
Whether free will exists or not, what matters is that each one of us is able to "determine" our own decisions better than anybody else. Now whether we really *control*, or merely *predict* our own decisions doesn't matter: the decisions will be exactly the same, and we will feel that we are in control of them.

For example, it makes no difference whether somebody's evil character and behaviour is by free will or not: that person will feel that he is under control of his decisions, and we don't want evil behaviour in our society because it is harmful to us. Period.

Furthermore, if nobody is responsible for their crimes due to lack of free will, then nobody can be responsible for taking the "wrong" decision on whether and how to punish them, for exactly the same reason. We can't have it both ways and expect some people to have free will, but not others.

Either way, it makes no difference to our decisions and actions whether we control or merely predict our decisions, with only the illusion of control. The result is the same whether we take the red or the blue pill. But even if it's just an illusion, the idea of being in control of my decisions gives meaning to my life and makes me feel better, so I'm very happy to take the blue pill. Of course that is assuming I have the choice. :wink:

Make sense?

PS. Why is it that we tend to take decisions that make us happier and better off? Surely if our decisions were determined only by past events (cause and effect) rather than future outcomes (free will), the outcomes would be much more random, no?

_________________
If you want something you’ve never had, you’ve got to do something you’ve never done - Thomas Jefferson


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Freewill does not and cannot exist
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 12:46 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2006 5:32 pm
Location: Bay Area, CA
rline wrote:
Quote:
Discussions of free will have traditionally been considered in a religious context and for historical reasons those have failed badly on this site so we'll avoid them.
Dave, to clarify, are you banning any form of discussion here involving something considered "religious", whether it's of the more traditional religious views or otherwise? Even if it's a novel, or uncommon idea?
Rox covered it but it doesn't hurt to clarify twice:
Discussions involving something considered "religion" are not banned or this thread wouldn't exist.

I chose the word "avoid" because it implies steering away from something but doesn't explicitly say "not permitted", and that is how I feel on the matter. The history of discussions in this area is not good, and people have been banned over it (use search, the threads are not hard to find).

Rox and I don't have the time for such things, and I can't find any way in which our site is furthered by it. The internet is a vast space and if you want such debate and discussion there are plenty of other places to find it.

We try to have very few hard rules on this forum and rely on people being polite and thoughtful to each other. This particular area warrants a reminder to tread carefully.

Dave

_________________
Image
LitwinPuzzles.com has info on my puzzles.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Freewill does not and cannot exist
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 2:13 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2011 4:54 am
Quote:
The internet is a vast space and if you want such debate and discussion there are plenty of other places to find it.

Well I didn't ever say I did, for a start. It sounds like me simply wanting to clarify something has me boxed. Believe me, I'm not actively looking for it at all. But I thought I had something relevant and interesting to contribute. Something that isn't the standard "religious" view, but would still be classed as religious. Honestly, though, I'm now far too paranoid to do so.

_________________
Youtube Twisty Puzzling
Blogger Twisty Puzzling - Simple Solutions for Puzzling Twisties
Tutorials: Pitcher Octo-Star Cube | GERANIUM | Wheel of Wisdom


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Freewill does not and cannot exist
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 4:31 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2009 5:13 pm
Rline, I think the key is to be open to respectfully hear and consider other views. Unfortunately with religion it is a matter of faith rather than logic and open reasoning. Nothing wrong with faith per se, but it is a very personal matter and discussions tend to get nasty, aggressive and defensive, not to mention quite tedious.

I hope we can stay on topic, it's a really interesting question from a scientific and philosophical perspective...

_________________
If you want something you’ve never had, you’ve got to do something you’ve never done - Thomas Jefferson


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Freewill does not and cannot exist
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 6:43 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2011 4:54 am
KelvinS wrote:
Rline, I think the key is to be open to respectfully hear and consider other views. Unfortunately with religion it is a matter of faith rather than logic and open reasoning. Nothing wrong with faith per se, but it is a very personal matter and discussions tend to get nasty, aggressive and defensive, not to mention quite tedious.

I hope we can stay on topic, it's a really interesting question from a scientific and philosophical perspective...

This will be the last post I make in this thread, and it'll be brief. :)

I completely agree with your keys: respect, listening, considering. I've never even intimated I'd do anything other than this.

KelvinS wrote:
Unfortunately with religion it is a matter of faith rather than logic and open reasoning.

This comment irks me. It's such a black/white "no inbetween" sort of comment. If that's your experience with all religious people, then that's a shame. As well, to imply that all non-religious people have the sole right and usage on logic and open reasoning is, frankly, laughable.

Now it seems that (apparently well before I was a member here) there were some unpleasant conversations involving religion. That's a shame, too. But whether some people here believe it or not, the feeling I often get when anything approaching these touchy areas is raised on this forum is "everyone needs to be open to respectfully hear and consider others' views, as long as those views aren't religious views".

In all this, I still haven't come close to stating where I stand on it all. People may guess, and they may also be quite wrong. :wink:

I think it's a great topic for discussion (thus my original post) and I'm genuinely sorry (particularly to murderouslyrics, who started it) if my posts have steered the conversation away.

Please...continue. 8-)

[I'm not overly sure whether I freely chose to write this post or not]

_________________
Youtube Twisty Puzzling
Blogger Twisty Puzzling - Simple Solutions for Puzzling Twisties
Tutorials: Pitcher Octo-Star Cube | GERANIUM | Wheel of Wisdom


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Freewill does not and cannot exist
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 2:12 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 7:37 pm
katsmom wrote:
Anything that crosses the respect/potentially arguementative line will be edited. Anything heavily volatile...... You can work that one out.

Logically we can't really argue about the subject. Those who do not believe in free will must surely understand that those who do have no choice in what they post.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Freewill does not and cannot exist
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 3:22 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2012 8:05 pm
Tony Fisher wrote:
katsmom wrote:
Anything that crosses the respect/potentially arguementative line will be edited. Anything heavily volatile...... You can work that one out.

Logically we can't really argue about the subject. Those who do not believe in free will must surely understand that those who do have no choice in what they post.

Simply because they aren't ultimately responsible for their beliefs does not mean that they cannot be persuaded. Just because the way we live our lives is ultimately the result of external influences, namely genes and environment, does not mean that there is no room for self-betterment. I don't think taking away freewill takes away the discussion of individuality and intention.

_________________
YO WUDDUP GRAPE ICE CREAM


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Freewill does not and cannot exist
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 3:42 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2009 8:54 pm
Location: Bay Area, California
murderouslyrics wrote:
Simply because they aren't ultimately responsible for their beliefs does not mean that they cannot be persuaded. Just because the way we live our lives is ultimately the result of external influences, namely genes and environment, does not mean that there is no room for self-betterment. I don't think taking away freewill takes away the discussion of individuality and intention.
Given the previous argument that free will does not exist this statement is a non-sequitur* and contradictory.

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non_sequitur_%28logic%29
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derailment_%28thought_disorder%29


Fortunately somebody has already made an image that sums up my opinion of this thread.

_________________
Prior to using my real name I posted under the account named bmenrigh.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Freewill does not and cannot exist
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 4:01 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2011 7:37 pm
So... to sum up what you are trying to say Murderouslyrics, we have no free will because every choice we make is influenced by something else. I think that you are incorrect. Let's say I'm hungry. I open my cabinet and I see asparagus and a cookie. I choose the cookie because I don't like asparagus. Does this mean I didn't have a choice? I think that humans cannot be random because every choice we make is influenced by something else. I might have had a random desire to eat more healthily but, because I cannot be random, I didn't. this still does not deny the fact that I had a choice. Not a forced choice, an influenced choice.

If we hold your arguments as true than humans would have to be random. Which we aren't.

Free will is not the ability to make an uninfluenced choice, but the ability to make an unforced choice. (Don't believe me? Look at the definition you posted.)


The murderer chose to kill someone because his moral guidelines were not influencing him strongly enough. In order to make his moral guidelines stronger, we punish him. The next time he thinks about misbehaving, he will remember being punished the last time he did this. He will be influenced more strongly by his moral guidelines.

So, basically, the fact that all choices are influenced does not mean that we don't have free will.

With any luck, my arguments made sense and I didn't make myself look like an idiot.

_________________
PBs:single/Ao5/Ao12
3x3: 4.76/8.13/8.80
pyraminx: 0.89/1.87/2.19
4x4:36.50/45.59
5x5: 1:21.50/1:41.50
7x7: 4:10.50


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Freewill does not and cannot exist
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 4:32 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 7:37 pm
X-TownCuber wrote:
I open my cabinet and I see asparagus and a cookie. I choose the cookie because I don't like asparagus. Does this mean I didn't have a choice? I think that humans cannot be random because every choice we make is influenced by something else. I might have had a random desire to eat more healthily but, because I cannot be random, I didn't. this still does not deny the fact that I had a choice. Not a forced choice, an influenced choice.

I would say you didn't have a choice. It was inevitable that you would choose the cookie. Apart from simply not liking asparagus there has been a billion things happening in the world and in your brain that lead you to that act. You will not have been aware of them.
I can imagine people now going to their cupboards and attempting to randomly choose something to eat. Only some will and they will be of a certain personality type. They will act in a way influenced by this thread, post, their own biases etc etc. They are just the things I can name, there will again be a billion other things that lead them to start munching on that dead cockroach in their attempt to be truly random.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Freewill does not and cannot exist
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 4:39 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 15, 2009 12:00 am
Location: Jarrow, England
Tony, let us suppose that someone discusses with you at great length and manages to convert you to the idea that we do have free will. You now say that "Free will exists, and we all have it". Was that your free choice? Or was your entire life just leading up to that event, it was inevitable that you had no choice in the matter, and that eventually you would say that free choice exists?

_________________
My Shapeways Shop: http://www.shapeways.com/shops/gus_shop

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Freewill does not and cannot exist
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 4:58 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2011 7:37 pm
Hypothetical situation:

there is a man who lives alone in Greece. we'll call him Mr. V. he runs at least a mile every day, and tries hard to stay fit. On Tuesday, Mr. V. reads his email and finds that many consumers have bought cheaper higher quality versions of a product he has patented. In rage, Mr. V. rips out his hair, sends extremely negative Facebook comments, and goes to find a snack. He opens his cupboard and sees a cookie and some asparagus. normally he would eat the asparagus because he wants to be healthy, but he is so angry he really wants to just have something that tastes good. he hesitates, trying to make up his mind. finally, he reaches for the cookie, and eats it.

End hypothetical situation.

Mr. V. had a choice. he had to decide which was stronger: his anger or his desire to be fit. Of his own free will he allowed anger to take control and he ate the cookie. it doesn't matter if the answer to his dilemma was pre-determined or not. he made the choice of his own free will.

_________________
PBs:single/Ao5/Ao12
3x3: 4.76/8.13/8.80
pyraminx: 0.89/1.87/2.19
4x4:36.50/45.59
5x5: 1:21.50/1:41.50
7x7: 4:10.50


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Freewill does not and cannot exist
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 5:06 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2009 8:54 pm
Location: Bay Area, California
I think we can all agree that it seems like we have free will. Even if we don't, we have the feeling of making choices that affect outcomes.

There are two reasonable hypotheses for this:

1) We really do have free will

2) A very complex set of circumstances (emergence) that we aren't aware of create the the illusion of free will, but we are in fact, just automatons

I'm really surprised to see folks stating one or the other of these is true with so much vigor.

Not only do I not think there is enough evidence to decide which is true, using similar reasoning to Gödel's incompleteness theorems I believe it is most likely impossible for us to create any test or line of logical reasoning that could prove one or the other.

I'm really skeptical of any statements claiming to resolve this question.

_________________
Prior to using my real name I posted under the account named bmenrigh.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Freewill does not and cannot exist
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 5:23 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 7:37 pm
Gus wrote:
Tony, let us suppose that someone discusses with you at great length and manages to convert you to the idea that we do have free will. You now say that "Free will exists, and we all have it". Was that your free choice? Or was your entire life just leading up to that event, it was inevitable that you had no choice in the matter, and that eventually you would say that free choice exists?

Yes, imagining that situation now as a non believer I would say that it was inevitable that I would change my opinion. Ask me the same question after my conversion then I would of course say no. Ultimately our beliefs and the truth does not necessarily need to be the same thing.

X-TownCuber wrote:
Mr. V. had a choice. he had to decide which was stronger: his anger or his desire to be fit. Of his own free will he allowed anger to take control and he ate the cookie. it doesn't matter if the answer to his dilemma was pre-determined or not. he made the choice of his own free will.

But some tiny factor swayed him in one direction. If it hadn't he would not have been able to choose. That factor must have come about somehow so the path was already set. Like I said earlier we are not just talking about a few influences that are apparent to all. We are talking about an enormous number of tiny knock on events contributing to every decision.
We are not talking about some external force making you do everything. You or Mr. V is still making the decisions, but they are inevitable / predictable ones. To some extent we see this every day of our lives when friends or family say and do the same little things over and over again.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Freewill does not and cannot exist
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 5:41 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2009 5:13 pm
bmenrigh wrote:
I think we can all agree that it seems like we have free will. Even if we don't, we have the feeling of making choices that affect outcomes.

There are two reasonable hypotheses for this:

1) We really do have free will

2) A very complex set of circumstances (emergence) that we aren't aware of create the the illusion of free will, but we are in fact, just automatons

I'm really surprised to see folks stating one or the other of these is true with so much vigor.

Not only do I not think there is enough evidence to decide which is true, using similar reasoning to Gödel's incompleteness theorems I believe it is most likely impossible for us to create any test or line of logical reasoning that could prove one or the other.

I'm really skeptical of any statements claiming to resolve this question.


This is exactly what I was trying to explain above: whether free will is real or just an illusion, the effect will always be the same, so there is no way we can tell which is true. So here's a critical challenge to everyone that believes one way or another, that free will does or does not exist:

Give just one example where we would expect a different experience, outcome or effect if free will was real, or just a fallacy/illusion.

If you can't think of an example, then you have no basis to argue one way or another.

_________________
If you want something you’ve never had, you’ve got to do something you’ve never done - Thomas Jefferson


Last edited by KelvinS on Fri Jun 29, 2012 5:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Freewill does not and cannot exist
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 5:42 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2011 7:37 pm
There is no way to argue our points other than what we have already said. Our opinions will continue to conflict no matter what the other says. Bmenrigh and Kelvin must have the right idea: we'll just have to leave it.

_________________
PBs:single/Ao5/Ao12
3x3: 4.76/8.13/8.80
pyraminx: 0.89/1.87/2.19
4x4:36.50/45.59
5x5: 1:21.50/1:41.50
7x7: 4:10.50


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Freewill does not and cannot exist
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 5:48 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 20, 2011 5:14 pm
Location: Hertfordshire, UK
I would say that the concept of free will could not be positively disproved without us also having the ability to accurately predict and map the lives of every single 'thinking' creature. Until that time I'm going to go on assuming I have free will as I do not believe in taking anything simply on faith.

_________________
Q: How many puzzles does a collector need in their collection?
A: Just one more.



Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Freewill does not and cannot exist
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 5:52 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2009 5:13 pm
X-TownCuber wrote:
There is no way to argue our points other than what we have already said. Our opinions will continue to conflict no matter what the other says. Bmenrigh and Kelvin must have the right idea: we'll just have to leave it.

Right, so then it really is a matter of personal faith: there is no scientific way to prove or disprove free will, or distinguish it from just an illusion. On that basis, there really is nothing to argue about, everyone should be able to take the view that makes them feel better, assuming they believe they have the choice in the first place. On that basis, I choose to take the blue pill and believe in free will, just because it gives meaning to my own life, but I have no problem if other people believe differently. Important thing is to realize there is no right answer and not try to force a particular belief on others.

_________________
If you want something you’ve never had, you’ve got to do something you’ve never done - Thomas Jefferson


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Freewill does not and cannot exist
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 6:02 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2009 8:54 pm
Location: Bay Area, California
Hybrid424 wrote:
I would say that the concept of free will could not be positively disproved without us also having the ability to accurately predict and map the lives of every single 'thinking' creature. Until that time I'm going to go on assuming I have free will as I do not believe in taking anything simply on faith.

Actually there are plenty of precedents for proving that a solution exists without providing either a solution or a non-trivial algorithm for finding a solution.

It would be enough to prove that the universe is deterministic without actually providing a solution that computes the next state of the universe given the current one.

And to complicate things further, the universe may not have an exact current state. Heisenberg's uncertainty principle may be telling us that the universe is in a superposition of many states all within the ħ/2 uncertainty for each particle. Because of this uncertainty, thought experiments that involve computing the next state of the universe given the current one may assuming the impossible (knowing / measuring the current state of the universe).

_________________
Prior to using my real name I posted under the account named bmenrigh.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Freewill does not and cannot exist
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 6:21 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 15, 2009 12:00 am
Location: Jarrow, England
I have free will. Tomorrow, I will exercise this free will, and do things which, as I am writing this, have no idea what they are. But it is my choice.


OR ...

I have no free will. Tomorrow, I will not exercise this free will, and do things which, as I am writing this, have no idea what they are. But it is not my choice.

Which is correct? Will it change tomorrow if one is right or one is wrong?

_________________
My Shapeways Shop: http://www.shapeways.com/shops/gus_shop

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Freewill does not and cannot exist
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 6:30 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 20, 2011 5:14 pm
Location: Hertfordshire, UK
bmenrigh wrote:
...It would be enough to prove that the universe is deterministic without actually providing a solution that computes the next state of the universe given the current one.

How would it be possible to determine the universe is deterministic without also knowing what is to come?

_________________
Q: How many puzzles does a collector need in their collection?
A: Just one more.



Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Freewill does not and cannot exist
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 6:34 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2009 5:13 pm
There's another way to look at this:

What are the pros and cons of believing, or not believing in free will?

If you believe in free will, and free will is real, then you can make the effort to make better decisions.
If you believe in free will, and free will is just an illusion, then making an effort will make no difference.

If you don't believe in free will, and free will is real, then you may not try to make the best decisions.
If you don't believe in free will, and free will is indeed an illusion, then your life has no meaning.

Hence, there are potential benefits of believing in free will (making the effort to make better decisions), but there are only risks/costs associated with not believing in free will (not taking responsibility for decisions, missing opportunities and/or lack of meaning).

Make sense?

_________________
If you want something you’ve never had, you’ve got to do something you’ve never done - Thomas Jefferson


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Freewill does not and cannot exist
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 6:47 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2011 7:37 pm
Has anyone else noticed that here on the twistypuzzles forum the topics we debate and think about the most are often completely unrelated to twisty puzzles? :roll: Being a nerd is so much fun. :)

_________________
PBs:single/Ao5/Ao12
3x3: 4.76/8.13/8.80
pyraminx: 0.89/1.87/2.19
4x4:36.50/45.59
5x5: 1:21.50/1:41.50
7x7: 4:10.50


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 95 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Near and 4 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  

Forum powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group