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 Post subject: Soccer Slide
PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 10:23 am 
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Hello,

I am quite new in the Forum and I would like to present my puzzle. It is very simple in comparison to yours, wonderful and sophisticated ones, but seems to be new.

I hope, you like it.

Regards
Iwona


Attachments:
File comment: possible appearance
kolorowe gwiazdki.jpg
kolorowe gwiazdki.jpg [ 433.79 KiB | Viewed 5330 times ]
File comment: possible appearance
popr3pilki.jpg
popr3pilki.jpg [ 439.29 KiB | Viewed 5330 times ]
IGOBALL3.jpg
IGOBALL3.jpg [ 423.58 KiB | Viewed 5330 times ]
IGOBALL2.jpg
IGOBALL2.jpg [ 349.39 KiB | Viewed 5330 times ]
File comment: prototype made of plaster powder
IGOBALL1.jpg
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 Post subject: Re: Soccer Slide
PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 10:31 am 
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Nice!!! And the fact that it is related to the Euro 2012, is a HUGE plus for me.
Is the movement smooth enough with so many pieces on each band?

:)


Pantazis

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 Post subject: Re: Soccer Slide
PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 10:51 am 
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Very nice. Is that a spherical Starminx? It looks very interesting.

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 Post subject: Re: Soccer Slide
PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 11:26 am 
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Very nice looking puzzle! Any plan to mass-produce them? :)


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 Post subject: Re: Soccer Slide
PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 11:31 am 
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Hi Iwona,

Welcome to the Twisty Puzzles Forum. You may want to present your video and some photos of the puzzle taken apart. The operation of your puzzle is impressively smooth.

Thank you for the inspiration for the Fudball puzzle.

Oskar

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Last edited by Oskar on Thu Oct 20, 2011 2:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Soccer Slide
PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 11:35 am 
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Luke wrote:
Very nice. Is that a spherical Starminx? It looks very interesting.

Oh... oh... oh.... you know what I think it is? I think its an Elemental Slice-turn-only Mixup Starminx. Made exactly the same way I was planning on making my Elemental Slice-turn-only Mixup Master Skewb. And here I was thinking it was an original idea. With the Starminx it appears it doesn't even need to be fudged as the Master Skewb geometry required a small bit of fudging. Oh I can't want to see a video of this one. I'd LOVE to see a shape mode of this in the shape of a dodecahedron. That would add the element of orientation to each of the triangles as well. With the planar elemental puzzles the up triangles and the down triangles NEVER mix and they can't change their orientation. Here as with my design the triangles can assume any position and be in any orientation.

I guess if this isn't fudged is doesn't even have to be a slice-turn-only puzzle but based on the pictures I don't see anything that tells me the face layers can turn.

Looks like I may need to be a bit faster then usual if I want to get anywhere with the "Elemental Slice-turn-only Mixup" family. Very very exciting...

Carl

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Last edited by wwwmwww on Wed Oct 19, 2011 2:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Soccer Slide
PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 12:06 pm 
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Oskar wrote:
Hi Iwona,

Welcome to the Twisty Puzzles Forum. You may want to present your video and some photos of the puzzle taken apart. The operation of your puzzle is impressively sooth.

Thank you for the inspiration for the Fudball puzzle.

Oskar
Arg!!! Just checked out the video on my phone and saw what you wrote here:

http://www.shapeways.com/model/352584/fudball.html

Quote:
Fudball was inspired by the Soccer Slide puzzle, designed and built by Iwona Gorczyca. Iwona's original design has sliding rhombusses and isosceles triangles. Each of the six great circles can be turned in steps of 72 degrees. By fudging a bit, Oskar turned all pieces into equilateral triangles,allowing 36 degrees steps.
From the video its really hard to tell some of the pieces are fuzed together to make rhombusses. I take it you've seen this puzzle in person? Upon seeing it the Fudball is what I thought it was. So I guess this is a spherical slice-turn only Starminx then? And you present a finished Fudball design 30 seconds AFTER the idea pops into my head while I'm typing the above post. I guess I wasn't joking about the needing to be FASTER.

Oh and its interesting to see that it did need to be fudged. What angle did the paths cross at before you fudged them to 60 degrees?

Wow this whole family of puzzles is moving FAST.

Carl

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Last edited by wwwmwww on Wed Oct 19, 2011 12:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Soccer Slide
PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 12:17 pm 
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Very impressive.
Can you post an image showing the puzzle after two turns?
What is its diameter and weight?

Do not be afraid. I ask everybody such questions.

Andreas


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 Post subject: Re: Soccer Slide
PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 1:32 pm 
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OK, let me get this straight: it's a Soccer-y Spherical Slice Starminx?


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 Post subject: Re: Soccer Slide
PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 1:55 pm 
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kastellorizo wrote:
Nice!!! And the fact that it is related to the Euro 2012, is a HUGE plus for me.
Agreed.

Oskar wrote:
The operation of your puzzle is impressively sooth.
That's a big understatement, wow this thing moves like a superconducting train!

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 Post subject: Re: Soccer Slide
PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 2:23 pm 
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Jared wrote:
OK, let me get this straight: it's a Soccer-y Spherical Slice Starminx?
Looks like Sally may finally have something to sell besides sea shells by the sea shore.

Oh I hope someone else gets that... If not... just trust me I'm not crazy.

Carl

P.S. But to answer your question... Yes.

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 Post subject: Re: Soccer Slide
PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 6:46 pm 
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That is a wonderful puzzle! And it does indeed turn very well!

Andreas Nortmann wrote:
What is its diameter and weight?
Do not be afraid. I ask everybody such questions.
For shame! You should know it's rude to ask a puzzle its weight. :wink:

Oskar wrote:
Thank you for the inspiration for the Fudball puzzle.
Oskar, you are way too fast at this for mere mortals like me to comprehend.

-Eitan

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 Post subject: Re: Soccer Slide
PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 8:22 pm 
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Beautiful puzzle! If these become mass produced count me in! Looks absolutely fantastic! and welcome to the forum as well. You will have a great time here. :)

--JC--

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 Post subject: Re: Soccer Slide
PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 12:03 am 
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kastellorizo wrote:
Nice!!! And the fact that it is related to the Euro 2012, is a HUGE plus for me.
Is the movement smooth enough with so many pieces on each band?

:)


Pantazis


Thank you!!! I am from Poland and I wanted the puzzle became a gadget of championship hosted by my country....
The movements can be seen here:
http://www.youtube.com/user/arjask#p/u/2/ruqR4-oCtzs
(read the description on YouTube below the movie)

Iwona


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 Post subject: Re: Soccer Slide
PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 12:13 am 
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Luke wrote:
Very nice. Is that a spherical Starminx? It looks very interesting.



It is nice you like it. Carl is right, it is not the spherical Starminx. It is a soccer slide (a name was given by Oskar). Only 6 belts slide in a version shown in photographs and in the movie (prototypes). But at the moment I am preparing a prototype for another version (soccer slide plus), where additionally two caps rotate (I just would like to know if it works smoothly enough). It significantly increases 20-digital number of permutations to a number exceeding 100 digits. Of course, it is not such an elegant solution as Starminx V1 where all 12 caps can rotate but its construction is much simpler, I suppose.

I admire your results in speedcubing. Solving 3x3x3 takes me about 2 min and megaminx (or rather BallB) almost 2 hours.

Iwona


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 Post subject: Re: Soccer Slide
PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 12:19 am 
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otischeng wrote:
Very nice looking puzzle! Any plan to mass-produce them? :)



Thank you! My dream is to put my puzzle into existence.

Iwona


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 Post subject: Re: Soccer Slide
PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 12:24 am 
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Oskar wrote:
Hi Iwona,

Welcome to the Twisty Puzzles Forum. You may want to present your video and some photos of the puzzle taken apart. The operation of your puzzle is impressively sooth.

Thank you for the inspiration for the Fudball puzzle.

Oskar




Hi Oskar,

Thank you for everything. I can see you put a link to the movie. Well, it is not a very professional video, just shot by my daughter.

As to Fudball I am honoured if I could inspire someone who invented, designed and build such a lot of different puzzles and other things.

Iwona


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 Post subject: Re: Soccer Slide
PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 12:28 am 
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wwwmwww wrote:
From the video its really hard to tell some of the pieces are fuzed together to make rhombusses. I take it you've seen this puzzle in person? Upon seeing it the Fudball is what I thought it was. So I guess this is a spherical slice-turn only Starminx then? And you present a finished Fudball design 30 seconds AFTER the idea pops into my head while I'm typing the above post. I guess I wasn't joking about the needing to be FASTER.

Oh and its interesting to see that it did need to be fudged. What angle did the paths cross at before you fudged them to 60 degrees?
Carl,

At the first sight Oskar also thought the belts consisted of triangles only.

My observations and reflections on fudball and your concept are exactly the same. In a case of 6 belts each triangle can take each position and in any of three orientations where in case of 4 belts only every second position and in fixed orientation (Oskar might give orientation to the triangles for example by single strokes radiating from centres of hexagons or otherwise). But 4 belt puzzle has another advantage: belts may be asymmetrical and this gives much more possibilities as to construction of invisible parts. For example triangles belonging to one of two groups can differ from triangles belonging to second group and then triangles can mutually interlock. Similarly two pairs of opposite sides of outermost elements of the central base body can be different. In the fudball all triangles must be the same and identical on all their sides. It causes a lot of invisible parts is required in case we do not want to leave empty spaces.

Iwona


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 Post subject: Re: Soccer Slide
PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 12:33 am 
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Andreas Nortmann wrote:
Very impressive.
Can you post an image showing the puzzle after two turns?
What is its diameter and weight?

Do not be afraid. I ask everybody such questions.

Andreas


It is fine you like it, thank you. Yes, I can but first I would need to take such a photo. Would you like to know by this how many colours were used? Only 10 as in this version the opposite elements are coupled.
Is it being practised on the Forum to show the internal construction?

As to diameter and weight it is too early to ask as the puzzle exists only as three prototypes.They were printed of plaster powder and are quite heavy. Diameter of the last one is 88 mm.

Iwona


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 Post subject: Re: Soccer Slide
PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 12:38 am 
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pirsquared wrote:
For shame! You should know it's rude to ask a puzzle its weight. :wink:
And for sure it does not befit to ask the puzzle about its measurements..... :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: Soccer Slide
PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 12:42 am 
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Phoenix wrote:
Beautiful puzzle! If these become mass produced count me in! Looks absolutely fantastic! and welcome to the forum as well. You will have a great time here. :)

--JC--



It is really fantastic all of you like it. I would LOVE my soccer puzzle to be produced even if in limited volume.

Iwona


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 Post subject: Re: Soccer Slide
PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 1:15 am 
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Iwona G wrote:
otischeng wrote:
Very nice looking puzzle! Any plan to mass-produce them? :)



Thank you! My dream is to put my puzzle into existence.

Iwona


I will wait.
:D


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 Post subject: Re: Soccer Slide
PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 1:57 am 
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Weight, age, measurements... You don't ask a woman these things.
On the other hand, every woman is a puzzle. To men, that is. Hmm...
Well, I guess I don't know what I am talking about. :oops:

8-) :lol: 8-)


Nice puzzle! 8-)

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 Post subject: Re: Soccer Slide
PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 12:33 pm 
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If you are able to get this mass-produced, I hope you will make a solid-color version like the prototype. Preferably with 20 different colors (one per hex). (How many does the proto have?)


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 Post subject: Re: Soccer Slide
PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 12:36 pm 
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BTW, wouldn't you need to get a license from UEFA to use the Euro Cup logo/brand on this puzzle?

PS. I live in Nyon (the Swiss village where UEFA headquarters are based), in case you want me to put you in touch with someone who can help you with this. I don't have any direct association with UEFA or anyone who works there, but send me a PM and I can easily track down the appropriate person if you are interested. Maybe they will even consider funding its production...

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Last edited by KelvinS on Thu Oct 20, 2011 12:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Soccer Slide
PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 12:43 pm 
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Iwona G wrote:
Yes, I can [make another image] but first I would need to take such a photo. Would you like to know by this how many colours were used? Only 10 as in this version the opposite elements are coupled.
I want to use the images to create a good entry for the museum here on twistypuzzles.
An entry like this:
http://twistypuzzles.com/cgi-bin/puzzle.cgi?pkey=2003
Iwona G wrote:
Is it being practised on the Forum to show the internal construction?
There is always great interest in the internal construction of a new mechanism. But everybody would understand it if you want to keep it a secret.


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 Post subject: Re: Soccer Slide
PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 1:23 pm 
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Iwona G wrote:
Carl,

At the first sight Oskar also thought the belts consisted of triangles only.
What can I say, great minds think alike.
Iwona G wrote:
My observations and reflections on fudball and your concept are exactly the same. In a case of 6 belts each triangle can take each position and in any of three orientations where in case of 4 belts only every second position and in fixed orientation (Oskar might give orientation to the triangles for example by single strokes radiating from centres of hexagons or otherwise). But 4 belt puzzle has another advantage: belts may be asymmetrical and this gives much more possibilities as to construction of invisible parts. For example triangles belonging to one of two groups can differ from triangles belonging to second group and then triangles can mutually interlock. Similarly two pairs of opposite sides of outermost elements of the central base body can be different.
I believe you are talking about a Fudball where only 4 slices are allowed to turn... correct? Before either the Soccer Slide or the Fudball saw the light of day I was working on this 4 belt design.

http://twistypuzzles.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=22188

It's just like the Fudball, each triangle can take each position in any of 3 orientations. However there are 30 triangles in each belt (as opposed to 20, I believe) and the degree of fudging is much more then is needed in the Fudball. So I'm not sure it will work near as well.

Iwona G wrote:
In the fudball all triangles must be the same and identical on all their sides. It causes a lot of invisible parts is required in case we do not want to leave empty spaces.
The same is true for the triangles in my puzzle however I'm not sure the "invisible parts" are required. I'm still in the design stages but I'm not sure its necessary to fill the empty space. I can see reasons why it might be but I'm not there yet to know for sure. If Oskar prints his Fudball, I'm curious what would happen if these pieces were left out.

Carl

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 Post subject: Re: Soccer Slide
PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 10:34 pm 
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Jared wrote:
If you are able to get this mass-produced, I hope you will make a solid-color version like the prototype. Preferably with 20 different colors (one per hex). (How many does the proto have?)



The prototype has only 10 colours. And in this version it is enough as opposite movable elements are coupled.

By the way, why do you prefer the “solid color version”? It is more difficult to control the movements visually then. Well, maybe it is my feminine point of view, but that multi-colour star version is more attractive as it resembles the soccer ball in much bigger degree. And among my friends all women vote for it. I also think, that the puzzle that does not look like Rubik’s cube but as something new may be more attractive for an average buyer though probably less attractive for a typical puzzler.


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 Post subject: Re: Soccer Slide
PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 11:03 pm 
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wwwmwww wrote:
Iwona G wrote:
Carl,

At the first sight Oskar also thought the belts consisted of triangles only.
What can I say, great minds think alike.

Live the modesty!

Iwona G wrote:
My observations and reflections on fudball and your concept are exactly the same. In a case of 6 belts each triangle can take each position and in any of three orientations where in case of 4 belts only every second position and in fixed orientation (Oskar might give orientation to the triangles for example by single strokes radiating from centres of hexagons or otherwise). But 4 belt puzzle has another advantage: belts may be asymmetrical and this gives much more possibilities as to construction of invisible parts. For example triangles belonging to one of two groups can differ from triangles belonging to second group and then triangles can mutually interlock. Similarly two pairs of opposite sides of outermost elements of the central base body can be different.
I believe you are talking about a Fudball where only 4 slices are allowed to turn... correct? Before either the Soccer Slide or the Fudball saw the light of day I was working on this 4 belt design.

No, I am talking about your 4 belt design (I wrote it in my first sentence) as I already saw it. So everything I wrote concerned your concept. [url]

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=22188[/url]

It's just like the Fudball, each triangle can take each position in any of 3 orientations. However there are 30 triangles in each belt (as opposed to 20, I believe) and the degree of fudging is much more then is needed in the Fudball. So I'm not sure it will work near as well.

I am sorry, I do not agree. In 4 belt puzzle left elements of the belt cannot take place of the right ones but it allows for belt asymmetry as in attached picture (fig.11). Because of that they also can take only one position. Your idea corresponds to fig.9 where rhombuses and trapezia are divided in triangles.
It is really strange but in both cases (Fudball and your concept) the belt consists of 30 triangles.
Iwona G wrote:

In the fudball all triangles must be the same and identical on all their sides. It causes a lot of invisible parts is required in case we do not want to leave empty spaces.
The same is true for the triangles in my puzzle however I'm not sure the "invisible parts" are required. I'm still in the design stages but I'm not sure its necessary to fill the empty space. I can see reasons why it might be but I'm not there yet to know for sure. If Oskar prints his Fudball, I'm curious what would happen if these pieces were left out.

I am convinced that in your puzzle invisible parts are not necessary just because of the feature the belts (and outermost parts of a central base body) can be asymmetrical (even four immovable triangles can differ from the other group of four immovable triangles of the central base body). I also fear that those small elements may tend to fall out but in the same time I believe in a genius of Oskar.

Carl


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 Post subject: Re: Soccer Slide
PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 11:12 pm 
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Kelvin Stott wrote:
BTW, wouldn't you need to get a license from UEFA to use the Euro Cup logo/brand on this puzzle?

PS. I live in Nyon (the Swiss village where UEFA headquarters are based), in case you want me to put you in touch with someone who can help you with this. I don't have any direct association with UEFA or anyone who works there, but send me a PM and I can easily track down the appropriate person if you are interested. Maybe they will even consider funding its production...



Of course, to make the puzzle an official gadget (= to use logo/brand on the product) the license of UEFA is needed and it is very expensive. Thank you very much for your ideas and your readiness to help. I answer by e-mail.


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 Post subject: Re: Soccer Slide
PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 11:25 am 
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Iwona G wrote:
Live the modesty!
Oh that wasn't intended to be taken too seriously. It's an expression I picked up from my dad that's intented to take an inocent comment and turn it into a compliment. Trust me I'm not so naive as to think I'm as great as Oskar. :wink:
Iwona G wrote:
No, I am talking about your 4 belt design (I wrote it in my first sentence) as I already saw it. So everything I wrote concerned your concept.
Ok... here is another expression from my dad. "Once every 10 years..." Its used to acknowledge a mistake as yes, you are correct. It's intented to imply that everyone is entitled to a mistake once every 10 years but I certainly recall my dad using it far more often then that. :wink:
Attachment:
URCorrect.png
URCorrect.png [ 119.93 KiB | Viewed 4641 times ]

If I start with the top center triangle and mark the bottom corner and follow it as it goes around the square it does indeed skip every other triangle. After 1 rotation I've rotated the top triangle by 120 degrees but you are right it never can exchange positions with its neighbor. I thought I had done this exact same thing 2 weekends ago and saw a different results thus my comments above, but its clear I made a mistake. You can also check what happens when you move a triangle around one if the fixed triangles and in that case it also skips every other triangle and doesn't even rotate the triangle. So yes you are correct you have two different sets in this case. I actually like that as I can easily see how I can use that to the advantage of the mech.
Iwona G wrote:
I am sorry, I do not agree. In 4 belt puzzle left elements of the belt cannot take place of the right ones but it allows for belt asymmetry as in attached picture (fig.11). Because of that they also can take only one position. Your idea corresponds to fig.9 where rhombuses and trapezia are divided in triangles.
It is really strange but in both cases (Fudball and your concept) the belt consists of 30 triangles.
By "can take only one position" do you mean to imply that the triangles can not be rotated in place? That they can do but yes as I now see above you are correct that the two sets can not be interchanged. As for both puzzles having 30 triangles in a belt you are also correct. I had based my assumtion of 20 based on Oskar's description of his Fudball on Shapeways.
Quote:
Fudball was inspired by the Soccer Slide puzzle, designed and built by Iwona Gorczyca. Iwona's original design has sliding rhombusses and isosceles triangles. Each of the six great circles can be turned in steps of 72 degrees. By fudging a bit, Oskar turned all pieces into equilateral triangles, allowing 36 degrees steps.
Note this implies 20 triangles as there are 360 degrees in a circle and if each belt had 10 doctrinaire positions as 36 degrees steps imply then there would be 20 triangles. Oskar should change his description to read.
Quote:
Each of the six great circles can be turned in steps of 48 degrees. By fudging a bit, Oskar turned all pieces into equilateral triangles, allowing 24 degree steps.
But going back and looking at the slice layer on a StarMinx there are indeed 10 edges that each get cut into 2 trianges and the 10 triangular faces so a total of 30 pieces.
Iwona G wrote:
I am convinced that in your puzzle invisible parts are not necessary just because of the feature the belts (and outermost parts of a central base body) can be asymmetrical (even four immovable triangles can differ from the other group of four immovable triangles of the central base body). I also fear that those small elements may tend to fall out but in the same time I believe in a genius of Oskar.
Well with both puzzles there is a degree of fudging as the geometry doesn't work out perfectly. On top of that I have concerns with the triangular pieces being able to push each other around the belt effectively. Due to their shape I suspect they will try to push their neighbors into the sides of the belt instead of just pushing them around the belt. So I'd expect more friction in these designs then I have in my Doctor Skewb which has the same kind of fudging. The only way to know for sure it to print them and I'll get mine there soon enough I hope.

Carl

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 Post subject: Re: Soccer Slide
PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 11:55 am 
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Iwona G wrote:
The prototype has only 10 colours. And in this version it is enough as opposite movable elements are coupled.


Ah! I forgot about that.

Iwona G wrote:
By the way, why do you prefer the “solid color version”? It is more difficult to control the movements visually then.


Well, it's true that it's harder to distinguish the pieces with the solid-color version, but I just like the way solid colored puzzles look.

If the solid-colored version had a black line between the two colors on each rhombus piece, perhaps it would be a little easier to distinguish the pieces? This would also reinforce the soccer ball look of the puzzle.

Iwona G wrote:
Well, maybe it is my feminine point of view, but that multi-colour star version is more attractive as it resembles the soccer ball in much bigger degree. And among my friends all women vote for it. I also think, that the puzzle that does not look like Rubik’s cube but as something new may be more attractive for an average buyer though probably less attractive for a typical puzzler.


Well, also, I am not a big sports fan (soccer or otherwise). So, having the puzzle look closer to a soccerball does not mean anything to me. I just want to solve it. ;)

Either way, I also like the version with the flags!


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 Post subject: Re: Soccer Slide
PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 11:15 pm 
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Indeed, the video shows a very robust movement. and this puzzle
really deserves to be picked up by UEFA (and FIFA too!)

As for the rest of the discussion with other forum members,
it has been quite entertaining (Aleksey, I agree with you! LOL)

:lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Soccer Slide
PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 2:04 pm 
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wwwmwww wrote:
Iwona G wrote:
Live the modesty!
Oh that wasn't intended to be taken too seriously. It's an expression I picked up from my dad that's intented to take an inocent comment and turn it into a compliment. Trust me I'm not so naive as to think I'm as great as Oskar. :wink:

Dear Carl, I just loved your joking expression. That is why I reacted. You are great!
Iwona G wrote:
No, I am talking about your 4 belt design (I wrote it in my first sentence) as I already saw it. So everything I wrote concerned your concept.
Ok... here is another expression from my dad. "Once every 10 years..." Its used to acknowledge a mistake as yes, you are correct. It's intented to imply that everyone is entitled to a mistake once every 10 years but I certainly recall my dad using it far more often then that. :wink:
Attachment:
URCorrect.png

If I start with the top center triangle and mark the bottom corner and follow it as it goes around the square it does indeed skip every other triangle. After 1 rotation I've rotated the top triangle by 120 degrees but you are right it never can exchange positions with its neighbor. I thought I had done this exact same thing 2 weekends ago and saw a different results thus my comments above, but its clear I made a mistake. You can also check what happens when you move a triangle around one if the fixed triangles and in that case it also skips every other triangle and doesn't even rotate the triangle. So yes you are correct you have two different sets in this case. I actually like that as I can easily see how I can use that to the advantage of the mech.
Iwona G wrote:
I am sorry, I do not agree. In 4 belt puzzle left elements of the belt cannot take place of the right ones but it allows for belt asymmetry as in attached picture (fig.11). Because of that they also can take only one position. Your idea corresponds to fig.9 where rhombuses and trapezia are divided in triangles.
It is really strange but in both cases (Fudball and your concept) the belt consists of 30 triangles.
By "can take only one position" do you mean to imply that the triangles can not be rotated in place? That they can do but yes as I now see above you are correct that the two sets can not be interchanged. As for both puzzles having 30 triangles in a belt you are also correct. I had based my assumtion of 20 based on Oskar's description of his Fudball on Shapeways.

Yes, Carl, you are right. This time I made a mistake. I noticed that after dividing rhombuses and trapezia into triangles asymmetry is still kept. So I probably came too quickly into conclusion that other features also remain. For example in a puzzle shown in fig.9 (before division) rhombuses can take only one position, they cannot rotate, whereas in Soccer Slide they can. So I attributed the feature also to triangles probably or maybe I just moved the triangles around the fixed triangle only, I do not know. But yes, I was wrong here. You clearly proved the triangles can rotate.

What can I say, we all are only humans and make mistakes.

Quote:
Fudball was inspired by the Soccer Slide puzzle, designed and built by Iwona Gorczyca. Iwona's original design has sliding rhombusses and isosceles triangles. Each of the six great circles can be turned in steps of 72 degrees. By fudging a bit, Oskar turned all pieces into equilateral triangles, allowing 36 degrees steps.
Note this implies 20 triangles as there are 360 degrees in a circle and if each belt had 10 doctrinaire positions as 36 degrees steps imply then there would be 20 triangles. Oskar should change his description to read.
Quote:
Each of the six great circles can be turned in steps of 48 degrees. By fudging a bit, Oskar turned all pieces into equilateral triangles, allowing 24 degree steps.


As to Oskar’s description on Shapeways an angle of 72 degrees is proper only 36 should be replaced by 24.
But going back and looking at the slice layer on a StarMinx there are indeed 10 edges that each get cut into 2 trianges and the 10 triangular faces so a total of 30 pieces.
Iwona G wrote:
I am convinced that in your puzzle invisible parts are not necessary just because of the feature the belts (and outermost parts of a central base body) can be asymmetrical (even four immovable triangles can differ from the other group of four immovable triangles of the central base body). I also fear that those small elements may tend to fall out but in the same time I believe in a genius of Oskar.
Well with both puzzles there is a degree of fudging as the geometry doesn't work out perfectly. On top of that I have concerns with the triangular pieces being able to push each other around the belt effectively. Due to their shape I suspect they will try to push their neighbors into the sides of the belt instead of just pushing them around the belt. So I'd expect more friction in these designs then I have in my Doctor Skewb which has the same kind of fudging. The only way to know for sure it to print them and I'll get mine there soon enough I hope.

Carl

I had the same fears regarding Soccer Slide (pushing neighbours to the sides). The degree of fudging in case of 4 belt puzzle is probably bigger than in 6 belt one (I do not exactly know the concept of it, I only guess what it is) as belt trajectories in the first one intersects each other under an angle of 70:31:44 degrees whereas in the latter under an angle of 63:26:06 degrees.

Iwona


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 Post subject: Re: Soccer Slide
PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 5:42 pm 
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Maybe I should put it in another topic and in another forum (Puzzle Building and Modding probabaly) but I am a new member and I am not very well oriented in the rules. Nevertheless I tell this here: the Starminx as well as Soccer Slide can easily take an external shape of icosahedron (fig. 39) or triacontahedron (fig. 41).

Iwona


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 Post subject: Re: Soccer Slide
PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 5:54 pm 
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Iwona G wrote:
As to Oskar’s description on Shapeways an angle of 72 degrees is proper only 36 should be replaced by 24.
Correct again. This pushed me to 20 years...
Iwona G wrote:
Nevertheless I tell this here: the Starminx as well as Soccer Slide can easily take an external shape of icosahedron (fig. 39) or triacontahedron (fig. 41).
Don't forget the Dodecahedron unless you are not including that as the Starminx is already a Dodecaheadron. And may I ask where you are getting these figures? You have a patent on this... or is there a nice book on geometry I need to track down? If these are out of a patent were you already looking into the 4 belt design when I published my idea (looking at the figures you posted a few posts above).

Carl

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 Post subject: Re: Soccer Slide
PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 11:33 am 
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Jared wrote:
Iwona G wrote:
The prototype has only 10 colours. And in this version it is enough as opposite movable elements are coupled.
Ah! I forgot about that.
This didn't sit well with me initially and it still doesn't. I agree that on slice-turn-only puzzles opposite movable elements are coupled. They are in effect one piece. But if you have opposite faces the same color then doesn't that give each "effective" piece two possible orientations in the solved state? One could be considered the "correct" state if 20 colors had been used and the other state where the two coupled elements had been swapped.

Now this assumes you have opposite faces the same color. You may be able to use 10 colors where opposite faces are different colors and still give each piece a unique position and orientation. I haven't looked at that possibility in detail so I'm not sure if its possible or not.

Carl

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 Post subject: Re: Soccer Slide
PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 7:06 pm 
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wwwmwww wrote:
Jared wrote:
Iwona G wrote:
The prototype has only 10 colours. And in this version it is enough as opposite movable elements are coupled.
Ah! I forgot about that.
This didn't sit well with me initially and it still doesn't. I agree that on slice-turn-only puzzles opposite movable elements are coupled. They are in effect one piece. But if you have opposite faces the same color then doesn't that give each "effective" piece two possible orientations in the solved state? One could be considered the "correct" state if 20 colors had been used and the other state where the two coupled elements had been swapped.

Now this assumes you have opposite faces the same color. You may be able to use 10 colors where opposite faces are different colors and still give each piece a unique position and orientation. I haven't looked at that possibility in detail so I'm not sure if its possible or not.

Carl

Yes, Carl, you are right and my first prototype had 10 colours placed ‘every four hexagons’. And next I started treating each pair as one element and changed my approach. But, yes, I agree, each pair creates one element with four orientations and my first approach was right. Carl, thank you very much for this hint.

Iwona


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 Post subject: Re: Soccer Slide
PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 2:48 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Soccer Slide
PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 3:50 pm 
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Very nice puzzle! The turning is super smooth!

I wonder what the cubic form of this is. :twisted:

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