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 Post subject: Multi-Origin Puzzle Idea
PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 2:05 pm 
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Hi Everyone,

This concept is very closely related to the conversation thread regarding the Compy/Dino Cuboid, but I have started a separate post since I think the puzzle I'm proposing is substantially different from that puzzle. In reading through the thread on the Compy/Dino Cuboid (which is an amazing thread with many wonderful ideas!), there are a few things in there that are reminiscent of a design I've been playing with recently. One of the concepts I've always thought is interesting is that of a multi-origin puzzle in which parts orbiting one origin point can switch orbits to one or more other origin points. A few months ago I was looking at a lamp in my living room when it struck me that the design of the lamp reflects a geometry that will allow just this type of multi-origin creation:
Attachment:
File comment: Multi-Origin Lamp
Inspiration Lamp Green.JPG
Inspiration Lamp Green.JPG [ 229.58 KiB | Viewed 3499 times ]


It was a relatively easy jump from there to a basic mock-up of the puzzle:
Attachment:
File comment: 1st puzzle concept
mob puzzle edges.jpg
mob puzzle edges.jpg [ 25.6 KiB | Viewed 3499 times ]
The idea is that the edges of the puzzle all turn, and the centers of the tall faces can turn too, allowing the eye-shaped pieces to move from one half of the puzzle to the other.

I then realized that by shifting the position of the circular cuts there is another obvious variant:
Attachment:
File comment: 2nd design variant
mob puzzle corners.jpg
mob puzzle corners.jpg [ 25.85 KiB | Viewed 3499 times ]
This version would turn on the corners and in two places on the tall faces. Parts would move from one half to the other via the edge turns on the tall axis of the puzzle.

Then I thought it would be interesting to look at a smaller version that incorporates each type of end face (circular and edge turning), and this is the result:
Attachment:
File comment: 3rd design concept
mob puzzle short.jpg
mob puzzle short.jpg [ 26.68 KiB | Viewed 3499 times ]


After looking at these designs for a while I realized that the puzzles would likely be very simple to solve. At best they would be on the order of a helicopter cube with no corners, since that is essentially what the edge-turning section becomes if made into a cube shape. Also, the "baby-face" aspect of the faces with a full circle of parts would make the corners-only version very simple. So I put the concept aside in favor of some other designs I am currently working on.

However, after reading the Compy/Dino post, I thought I would share this multi-origin puzzle concept in case any further thinking might be sparked. This idea does meet the criteria Oskar was suggesting when he asked if the Compy/Dino puzzle could be redesigned so that any piece of the same shape could be interchanged with all other parts of the same shape. This geometry would allow all such interchanges. It is also a geometry that could allow for infinite variation, as it could be extended in one or more axes as far as one desired. Perhaps it doesn't need to be a highly complicated solve to be a worthwhile puzzle, or maybe there are ways this idea could be made more interesting with a change to the geometry. Any thoughts?

Thanks,
Dave

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 Post subject: Re: Multi-Origin Puzzle Idea
PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 2:14 pm 
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Here's a picture of a lamp outside the new building at CU. Every time I walk by them, I feel like they're just begging to be turned into a puzzle! I might give it another shot, now that I've seen that multi-origin puzzles are actually possible (as seen in the Compy/Dino Cuboid thread).
Attachment:
photo-1.JPG
photo-1.JPG [ 64.57 KiB | Viewed 3467 times ]

-Eitan

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 Post subject: Re: Multi-Origin Puzzle Idea
PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 4:39 pm 
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Imagine a [1x1x2] cuboid that looks like two rex-cubes stacked on top of each other. It can turn along four edges in sections that are quarter-spheres and on all 8 vertices, like the Rex cube.

I'll make illustrations later, can't figure out how to do it on my computer.

p.s. your last idea is very interesting.

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 Post subject: Re: Multi-Origin Puzzle Idea
PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 4:44 pm 
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pirsquared wrote:
Here's a picture of a lamp outside the new building at CU. Every time I walk by them, I feel like they're just begging to be turned into a puzzle! I might give it another shot, now that I've seen that multi-origin puzzles are actually possible (as seen in the Compy/Dino Cuboid thread).
Attachment:
photo-1.JPG

-Eitan


please make such a puzzle! that would be amazing!!

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 Post subject: Re: Multi-Origin Puzzle Idea
PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 8:07 pm 
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Monopoly wrote:
Imagine a [1x1x2] cuboid that looks like two rex-cubes stacked on top of each other. It can turn along four edges in sections that are quarter-spheres and on all 8 vertices, like the Rex cube.


Good idea! Here's a picture of what that concept would look like. I made the curved cuts deeper than an actual Rex cube so that they become true quarter-sphere arcs when stacked. It certainly adds complexity to the concept, as well as to any possible mechanism. However, it does retain the property of allowing any piece of a certain shape to interchange with any other piece of the same shape. But the depth of those quarter-sphere cuts would make designing a mechanism very tricky.
Attachment:
mob rex cut.jpg
mob rex cut.jpg [ 72.67 KiB | Viewed 3367 times ]

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 Post subject: Re: Multi-Origin Puzzle Idea
PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 8:53 pm 
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Thanks for making the render!
Now that I look at it, I'm sure it can either jumble or shapeshift (not sure which, depends on the angles.)
Also if it were made shallower-cut I'm sure it would be easier to design.

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 Post subject: Re: Multi-Origin Puzzle Idea
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 12:54 am 
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The crop circles are similar to the twistypuzzles.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zu_aSziuTeQ


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Clip12.png
Clip12.png [ 33.72 KiB | Viewed 3313 times ]

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 Post subject: Re: Multi-Origin Puzzle Idea
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 8:27 am 
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Here are a couple of renders of the rex-cut concept with different depth cuts:
Attachment:
mob rex cut depths.jpg
mob rex cut depths.jpg [ 89.84 KiB | Viewed 3277 times ]

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 Post subject: Re: Multi-Origin Puzzle Idea
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 9:38 am 
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Since this is the first time I'm posting here let me say this is an awesome concept as a hole. There are some distinct differences from the "boublezed" cuboid. Any of these designs look like they would be awesome puzzles.

David Pitcher wrote:
Monopoly wrote:
Imagine a [1x1x2] cuboid that looks like two rex-cubes stacked on top of each other. It can turn along four edges in sections that are quarter-spheres and on all 8 vertices, like the Rex cube.


Good idea! Here's a picture of what that concept would look like. I made the curved cuts deeper than an actual Rex cube so that they become true quarter-sphere arcs when stacked. It certainly adds complexity to the concept, as well as to any possible mechanism. However, it does retain the property of allowing any piece of a certain shape to interchange with any other piece of the same shape. But the depth of those quarter-sphere cuts would make designing a mechanism very tricky.
Attachment:
mob rex cut.jpg


Saying this would be tricky mech design is an understatement. :lol: I am trying to demonstrate what this would look like mid turn. Half way through the turn pieces end up exactly half way through the puzzle itself. This may complete cut of the possibility of a core all together.

Image

I've just notices since I've hit reply David Pitcher has posted something of a similar
drawing. Again the pieces get quite close to the center of the puzzles, as demonstrated by the dotted line. However this might be alone the lines of doable.

Image

Though I do have a bigger concern. The center pieces and there wings move across the edge and corner pieces at two different angles. I'm not sure how clear that is, so I'll try to say it differently. Turning the edges would require one track in the mech on a different angle as the track that would needed to turn a corner. I'm still not sure I'm conveying this properly. Either way it's probably a master mined like Oskar would be able to overcome.

On another not the rex concept sparked an idea I would like to post but I think it would be more appropriate in the Compy/Dino Cuboid Topic.


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 Post subject: Re: Multi-Origin Puzzle Idea
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 9:39 pm 
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Nice!!! You know the topic of trying to apply the Cuboid concept to other geometries has come up before and its always seemed to have died off....

Anyone remember this thread?
http://twistypuzzles.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=18940

There have been a few hints that there were some possibilites here. There was Timur's F-Skewb and the discussion that it prompted. But it sure seems that in the last month this idea has just exploded into a whole new world of puzzles.

I just love all these ideas that are now coming out.

Carl

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 Post subject: Re: Multi-Origin Puzzle Idea
PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 2:05 pm 
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boublez wrote:
Saying this would be tricky mech design is an understatement. :lol

I completely agree that the mechanisms for some of these designs are far from obvious. But I like to take the approach of finding an interesting concept first, then worrying about how to make it reality second. That said, I'm not convinced that any of the concepts here are compelling enough to devote the time to design a mechanism for them (yet). On the other hand, I think the Boublez cuboid as envisioned in the Dino/Compy post, and as rendered by Carl, is a puzzle I would love to see brought into the physical world.

Of course, as the ideas keep flowing, I'm sure more great concepts worthy of making into reality will surface!

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 Post subject: Re: Multi-Origin Puzzle Idea
PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 1:39 am 
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I have built one of the rex-cut designs in Maya (by Boublez upthread) and will post pix and a video at the weekend. I think I have a viable axis framework and none of the pieces seem to intersect...
But then I would say that coz I have never actually made a cube before and what are the chances of winning the lottery!

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 Post subject: Re: Multi-Origin Puzzle Idea
PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2011 5:31 am 
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boublez wrote:
Either way it's probably a master minded like Oskar would be able to overcome.
The puzzle could be made pentagonal. This way, there is enough room for a solid core. Moreover, it removes some parity restrictions.

Oskar
Attachment:
Penta Stick - view 3.jpg
Penta Stick - view 3.jpg [ 100.74 KiB | Viewed 2888 times ]

Attachment:
Penta Stick - view 5.jpg
Penta Stick - view 5.jpg [ 80.89 KiB | Viewed 2888 times ]

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 Post subject: Re: Multi-Origin Puzzle Idea
PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2011 5:41 am 
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Wow that looks amazing Oskar!

Just a question: Would it be possible to make a similar design, but having the ability to turn 90 degrees, and then rotate an adjacent edge? ie making a turn from this position:

Image

-Mark- :)

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 Post subject: Re: Multi-Origin Puzzle Idea
PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 10:55 am 
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Well done Oskar! I like the fact that this design could be expanded too. It could potentially be sold as a single set with add-on core kits to make the puzzle longer.

Can't wait to see the real thing!

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 Post subject: Re: Multi-Origin Puzzle Idea
PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 5:28 pm 
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Here is an avi of the Rex cut idea from David's post. Some of the smaller pieces are left behind but that's just a capture bug. I added the slice through the middle as a talking point. I like the idea of making it look like any piece can go anywhere - like a corner can seem to end up in the middle! It has aesthetic value, even if the split core is probably impossible. I have not figured out if it would work yet.
Nothing intersects at the moment, but I do have some space left over inside, which would mean a very loose puzzle - unlike Oskar's, which is characteristically neat, tidy and probably works already!


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File comment: Rex cut test

multiOriginIdea01_SE.avi [ 5.78 MiB | Viewed 2747 times ]

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 Post subject: Re: Multi-Origin Puzzle Idea
PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 5:38 pm 
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OK the video did not embed. It is playable in Windows Media Classic as an xvid encoded avi.
Any one who knows what is best for submitting videos, please pm me.
Thanks

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 Post subject: Re: Multi-Origin Puzzle Idea
PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 6:13 pm 
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Wow Oskar!
But did you realize this? You can actually have times X long version of your puzzle, where X is your desire.

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