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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2010 9:41 pm 
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schuma wrote:
Actually GB added three face-turning icosahedra. The third is: 2.1.0 ! This one is the second model proposed by Stefan, minus the center pieces.
:) Thanks Stefan and Gelatinbrain!

2.1.0 is a dual of 1.2.12; the same puzzle apart from the color scheme.

My method is to use intuitive blockbuilding to solve all pieces up to the point of 5 adjacent turns left (10 edges and 25 leaves); then solve all the remaining edges; then cycle the remaining leaves pure with (1,1) commutators.

The 10x2 color scheme of 2.1.0 should slightly favor luck (the color of piece you want in a good place at the right time to solve, or already solved) more than 1.2.12, and Michael solved 1.2.12 in 285 moves, so I reckon 280 moves is a good least moves target for 2.1.0. I solved it tonight in 306 moves, with 5 circles left after 149 moves, and 24 leaves left after 190 moves.


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sat Dec 18, 2010 1:51 pm 
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Thank you, gelatinbrain for adding new puzzles to the icosahedron family. I believe, 2.1.0 uses cone-cuts instead of planar cuts. It's interesting, as discussed, with planar cuts this puzzle would have not been possible. Isn't 2.1.0 nice? :) I love the layout. Gelatinbrain, you are a genius.
Attachment:
2.1.0.png
2.1.0.png [ 20.53 KiB | Viewed 3579 times ]


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sat Dec 18, 2010 5:59 pm 
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Julian wrote:
]The 10x2 color scheme of 2.1.0 should slightly favor luck (the color of piece you want in a good place at the right time to solve, or already solved) more than 1.2.12, and Michael solved 1.2.12 in 285 moves, so I reckon 280 moves is a good least moves target for 2.1.0. I solved it tonight in 306 moves, with 5 circles left after 149 moves, and 24 leaves left after 190 moves.
This is a great puzzle. I like the piece shapes a lot more than 1.2.12. I just gave it my best shot and got 307 moves :? . Your solve hasn't made it to the leader board yet but I took 90 minutes. I'd have to take twice that to get into the 200s.

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Last edited by Brandon Enright on Sun Dec 19, 2010 4:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sat Dec 18, 2010 6:13 pm 
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In case no one noticed 2.1.0 comes very close to this viewtopic.php?f=15&t=15597&hilit=radiolarian though it has fixed centers. They're nice looking puzzles.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun Dec 19, 2010 6:07 am 
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I've been working on finding a pure 3-cycle for the big chop pieces, but I haven't been able to find anything other than a 2-2 swap or a 3-cycle for one piece from one orbital and one piece from the other, paired together. So this cycles 6 pieces, not the wanted 3 from one orbital.

My goal would be to be able to solve 1.5.1 -- 1.1.7 + 1.4.3. I think it's a very beautiful and interesting puzzle. So far schuma's the only solver. Anybody else planning on solving it?


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun Dec 19, 2010 10:42 am 
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Katten wrote:
I've been working on finding a pure 3-cycle for the big chop pieces, but I haven't been able to find anything other than a 2-2 swap or a 3-cycle for one piece from one orbital and one piece from the other, paired together. So this cycles 6 pieces, not the wanted 3 from one orbital.
That 3-cycle of pairs of pieces is useful to solve one orbital completely, but of course to finish the solve you also need the pure 3-cycle you mention.

Katten wrote:
My goal would be to be able to solve 1.5.1 -- 1.1.7 + 1.4.3. I think it's a very beautiful and interesting puzzle. So far schuma's the only solver. Anybody else planning on solving it?
:idea: Thanks! For some reason I didn't think of reducing 1.5.1 to a Big Chop (1.4.3). I do intend to solve 1.5.1... eventually. But 1.5.1 is one of 30+ puzzles that will take me at least 4 hours not including breaks, so I need to be in the right frame of mind. Perhaps on a cold winter weekend in the new year when the Windows version has been updated, I will do one half on Saturday and the other half on Sunday.

In small writing below I give hints for finding an efficient pure 3-cycle for the Big Chop, without giving the actual moves:

My first instinct was to try 2 edges as far apart as possible back and forth, and then use setups to push the pieces around so a single swapped piece is in a half. I found that this is really really hard, because 30% of the pieces have been moved by the edges back and forth. Instead, try moving 2 edges closer together back and forth 3 times, so that in 6 moves you have flipped/reversed 2 sets of 12 pieces (20% of the puzzle affected instead of 30%, which gives us a better chance). Now there are two possible useful things you can do with setup moves:

* Isolate a single swapped piece in a half.
* Swap a single piece at the end of a flipped set of 12 pieces, with no other changes to that half.

The 2nd option can be done with just 2 setup moves, to make a pure (10,1) cycle. It is tricky to see, but you can guarantee a result by trying all of the possibilities. With 13*14 = 182 setup combinations, taking 30 seconds to try each one and click Initialize if it doesn't work out, that would be 1.5 hours maximum to find a pure algo. But there are at least 2 possibilities that will work so there is a good chance it would take less than an hour.


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Mon Dec 20, 2010 9:38 pm 
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Gelatin Brain, thank you for the new icosahedra 2.1.10, 2.2.19 and 2.2.20. They are neat puzzles and I enjoy solving them.

Since you have added so many puzzles with conical or spherical cuts, I wonder if it's convenient to add this similar puzzle:

Image

This puzzle was discussed here. Although it can be turned by U, D, L, R, F, B just like a regular 3x3x3, since it has non-planar cuts, there are new types of pieces.


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Mon Dec 20, 2010 11:07 pm 
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schuma wrote:
Gelatin Brain, thank you for the new icosahedra 2.1.10, 2.2.19 and 2.2.20. They are neat puzzles and I enjoy solving them.
2.1.10 will be fun. This time I should use the circle-pairing like Elwyn did with the 1.2.13. I gave 2.2.19 a solve using intuition and it wasn't until I got to the last layer that I realized that it is the dual of 1.1.3. I was placing the edge pieces 1 at a time but 2 and 3 at a time should be easy. 2.2.20 is the dual of 1.1.5, minus centers.

Gelatinbrain, I love how you take some idea (circle puzzles, non-planar cuts, etc) and apply so much creativity for inventing new puzzles.

Schuma, thanks for the link to that thread, now I understand what those extra Circle FTO pieces are!

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Mon Dec 20, 2010 11:58 pm 
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I gave 1.3.12 a solve however when i got up to just having the thin triangles to cycle (3,1) like on the starminx there was a massive storm which caused a brief black out so i lost the solve.

The good news is that it can be reduced to a starminx (by making one of each legitimate edge pair) in very few moves. It took me just 44 moves however i got parity in the reduced edges which took 11 moves to fix but all up 55 moves so a complete solve of around 470 would be a good target i think but lower is definitely possible if you get a good reduction and good starminx solve. Though I currently don't really feel like solving much so i don't think i'll solve anything for a while

As a side note this type of edge reduction is also an option on 1.3.1 i just hadn't thought of it when i solved that. It's usually rather efficient (though it is the only step i've ever had to use a pen and paper for) so 1.3.1 could be brought down a little further. So far the puzzles I've found it works well on are 1.1.8, 1.1.17 1.3.1 and now 1.3.12. I think this one is the easiest to do it on because it's just three moves corner face corner per cycle and it's the first step so it's good practice if anyone wants to try it.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 4:50 pm 
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schuma wrote:
Since you have added so many puzzles with conical or spherical cuts, I wonder if it's convenient to add this similar puzzle:

Image


Image

A simple question: How many layers does this puzzle have? 8-)

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 4:54 pm 
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Sorry for the potential (slight) derailment of this thread, but I'd just like to point out that Gelatinbrain keeps crashing my browser. I'm using Safari on the most recent version of Mac OSX, are any others experiencing the same problem? Is there a way to fix this?
Thanks!
PS I'd like to point out that it DID work the first few days I got my computer but stopped working after that. If I switch to Google Chrome will that solve the problem?

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 5:05 pm 
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Monopoly wrote:
Sorry for the potential (slight) derailment of this thread, but I'd just like to point out that Gelatinbrain keeps crashing my browser. I'm using Safari on the most recent version of Mac OSX, are any others experiencing the same problem? Is there a way to fix this?
Thanks!
PS I'd like to point out that it DID work the first few days I got my computer but stopped working after that. If I switch to Google Chrome will that solve the problem?
Hey Monopoly, you should repost in the Gelatin Brain's Applet Problem thread. The crashing is almost certainly a Java problem, most likely the interaction between the native OpenGL libraries and Java on your system.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 5:11 pm 
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Monopoly wrote:
Sorry for the potential (slight) derailment of this thread, but I'd just like to point out that Gelatinbrain keeps crashing my browser. I'm using Safari on the most recent version of Mac OSX, are any others experiencing the same problem? Is there a way to fix this?
Thanks!
PS I'd like to point out that it DID work the first few days I got my computer but stopped working after that. If I switch to Google Chrome will that solve the problem?

You can find answers to similar questions somewhere in this thread and
here too.
I don't know exactly what page. You can also find some hints in my FAQ too. I hope this helps you.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 7:02 pm 
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gelatinbrain wrote:
Image

A simple question: How many layers does this puzzle have? 8-)


Thanks. This puzzle is harder than I thought. I played around it for a while but still no clue. When the cuts are planar, the 3x3x3 is naturally sliced into three layers: the left, the right and the rest (middle). But for this puzzle, the middle part behaves weirdly. There is an intersection of the left and the right, and some pieces that don't belong to the left or the right. Then it seems there are four layers: (1) the pieces that can be moved by L but not R, (2) the pieces that can be moved by R but not L (3), the pieces that can be moved by both L and R, and (4) the pieces that cannot be moved by either L or R. Both (3) and (4) sit in the middle. But overall I believe there is no natural definition of layers for this puzzle.


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 7:10 pm 
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schuma wrote:
This puzzle is harder than I thought. I played around it for a while but still no clue. When the cuts are planar, the 3x3x3 is naturally sliced into three layers: the left, the right and the rest (middle). But for this puzzle, the middle part behaves weirdly. There is an intersection of the left and the right, and some pieces that don't belong to the left or the right. Then it seems there are four layers: (1) the pieces that can be moved by L but not R, (2) the pieces that can be moved by R but not L (3), the pieces that can be moved by both L and R, and (4) the pieces that cannot be moved by either L or R. Both (3) and (4) sit in the middle. But overall I believe there is no natural definition of layers for this puzzle.
I'm glad you're stumped because I thought I'd solve it quickly and I still have no clue either. I can do some things with those center pieces but I still can't twist the entire center by 90 degrees on any axis. I can't figure out how to isolate those strange edge pairs either.

I find myself doing a lot of shift-click simulation by turning the right and left face and then re-orienting the puzzle. This adds to the overall confusion of it.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 7:50 pm 
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bmenrigh wrote:
I find myself doing a lot of shift-click simulation by turning the right and left face and then re-orienting the puzzle. This adds to the overall confusion of it.
I managed to solve it tonight after being mystified for a while. My breakthrough was looking at what doesn't move with each twist, and then trying to make algorithms with "anti"-moves, for example if I want to do R I actually do L followed by a puzzle rotation.

3.1.31 Solution Outline

1. Solve the two-sticker edges and corners like a Void Cube.

2. Solve the centers by commutating a Rubik's algo that cycles 3 edges around a face pure.

3. Cycle the detached edge pairs pure with a ((4,1), 1) = (10,1) commutator, where every move of the (4,1) is an "anti"-move as described above. (It looks like an irregular string of 10 moves in regular notation.)

I took 262 moves, but with better skill in the first stage and some luck I ought to be able to do sub-200.


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 9:50 pm 
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Julian wrote:
I managed to solve it tonight after being mystified for a while. My breakthrough was looking at what doesn't move with each twist, and then trying to make algorithms with "anti"-moves, for example if I want to do R I actually do L followed by a puzzle rotation.

3.1.31 Solution Outline

1. Solve the two-sticker edges and corners like a Void Cube.

2. Solve the centers by commutating a Rubik's algo that cycles 3 edges around a face pure.

3. Cycle the detached edge pairs pure with a ((4,1), 1) = (10,1) commutator, where every move of the (4,1) is an "anti"-move as described above. (It looks like an irregular string of 10 moves in regular notation.)

I took 262 moves, but with better skill in the first stage and some luck I ought to be able to do sub-200.


I also find it useful to do the "anti-moves" like R' and then whole cube R. It would be great if GB define this kind of thing as R&2 and shift+R. I'm also amazed by the fact your outline is exactly how I solved it. In the third step I'm also using a (10,1) commutator. It means for this puzzle I must be pretty efficient and this is unusual.


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 3:06 am 
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gelatinbrain wrote:
A simple question: How many layers does this puzzle have? 8-)
Should just be 3.

If you're looking to take that idea to it's full extent, start with the 5x5x5 circle cube here. Then bandage to 3x3x3 it as described in this thread. Namely this part
wwwmwww wrote:


I think this would be the full version of the complex 3x3x3 and should be a real challenge. It adds 3-4 more pieces that have interesting movement. I know wwwmwww explained which pieces are what on the circle 5x5x5 in one of his posts, but I can't find it at the moment.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 7:25 pm 
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Gelatinbrain, thanks for all your work in 2010 adding so many great new puzzles! Here are a few more puzzle suggestions/requests:

* Would vertex-turning and edge-turning versions of 3.1.31 be feasible? And octahedral versions too?

* The following edge-turning puzzle with a cut depth between 4.3.1 and 4.3.2:
Attachment:
GB new octa edge turner.png
GB new octa edge turner.png [ 5.84 KiB | Viewed 3264 times ]

* A version of 2.2.7 where both inner and outer turns are possible, with click and shift-click.

* A slice-only version of 1.1.8.

* A slice-only version of 1.2.10.


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Fri Dec 24, 2010 12:42 am 
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Julian wrote:
* Would vertex-turning and edge-turning versions of 3.1.31 be feasible? And octahedral versions too?


I tried to draw a dodecahedral version. The direct analog seems to be 1.1.4 plus the edges of megaminx. Maybe dodecahedral 3.1.32 is more interesting.


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sat Dec 25, 2010 9:27 am 
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Julian wrote:
In small writing below I give hints for finding an efficient pure 3-cycle for the Big Chop
Thanks a lot! I'll have a proper look at it when I'm in the mood for some brain-frying :D But what you said about moving pieces back and forth 3 times, is something I actually tried so I'm glad to hear I'm on the right track.

As to something different, I finally came up with a proper parity fix for puzzles such as 1.1.14, 1.1.18, 1.1.20 etc. By proper I mean that I found a way to fix the edge parity (similar to the edge parity on the 4x4x4) without scrambling (not splitting up just moving them around) the other edge pairs. This mean that I'll probably re-solve 1.1.20 soon as this is one of the first puzzles I ever solved. Around the 5th, I believe.

Algorithm in invisible ink below:

/(1,(1,1)) algorithm/
D'&2, C, F', C', F, D&2, F', C, F, C',

/Set-up moves/
G', F', B'2, G,

/(1,(1,1)) algorithm/
D'&2, C, F', C', F, D&2, F', C, F, C',

/reverse set-up moves/
G', B2, F, G,

/set-up moves second cycle/
E, D2,

/inverse (1,(1,1)) algorithm/
C, F', C', F, D'&2, F', C, F, C', D&2,

/reverse set-up moves second cycle/
D'2, E',


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun Dec 26, 2010 6:47 pm 
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merry christmas


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Tue Dec 28, 2010 5:15 am 
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It's been a VERY long time since I've done GB puzzles or visited this forum, but I'm rather perplexed by this 5.1.18 guy. I can see how the tiny eye-shaped face pieces form distant pairs (FINALLY after a lot of study), but I can't make progress. I do not know a good solving order.

FYI, I have not taken the time to catch up on this thread. I have been dealing with problems getting this Java applet to work on a new machine (but GB has me sorted now).

I think that out of all the remaining puzzles (mostly the new ones that got added after my time), that 5.1.18 is the most interesting for me. It seems simple enough...

I imagine leaving the central-edge pieces and their neighboring face pieces till the end, and forming blocks which can then be maneuvered into place using basic pyraminx work. I do not know what pieces to start with tho, but I can easily solve the vertex pieces by themselves.


-Doug

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Tue Dec 28, 2010 5:58 am 
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Hey Doug, welcome back! I spent a long time on 5.1.18 and it certainly wasn't easy. You've found the eye-shaped pairs which is good. It's hard to see but those pairs form the sides of an inner pyraminx edge.

My solve order was to first solve all of the vertex/corner pieces using intuition.

I then paired up the thin corner bands around the vertex with the V pieces below the eye pairs. When you have a band and the 3 V pieces around it grouped together it forms the corner of a pyraminx.

At this point I solved the outer pyraminx completely. This leaves those eye pairs as well as the pizza-slice looking edge cuts. You can cycle the pizza-slices pure. I know you like block-building so you could instead pair up the pizza-slices with their edges and then solve the pyraminx leaving only the eye-pairs.

At this point, the only things left are the eye pairs which as I said before are the edges of an inner pyraminx. You can use a sort of "anti-move" trick to turn a face and vertex and then re-orient the whole puzzle so that the outer pyraminx appears not to have moved but an inner vertex is twisted. I translated the canonical R L' R' L' (1, 1) commutator into these strange moves in invisible typeface below.

Inner edge 3-cycle: "[C,DAB'], [A',BCD], [D',CBA], [C,BDA']"


On a completely unrelated note, a long time ago you issued a challenge for twisting a corner on 2.2.3 nearly pure in 24 moves. I have written a program for the Pentultimate that I adapted to find a routine similar to yours for twisting that piece, pure. If you can remember back to how you did that, I'd love to hear about your thought process and how you came up with the routine.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 3:17 am 
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Julian wrote:
I managed to solve it tonight after being mystified for a while. My breakthrough was looking at what doesn't move with each twist, and then trying to make algorithms with "anti"-moves, for example if I want to do R I actually do L followed by a puzzle rotation.

3.1.31 Solution Outline

1. Solve the two-sticker edges and corners like a Void Cube.

2. Solve the centers by commutating a Rubik's algo that cycles 3 edges around a face pure.

3. Cycle the detached edge pairs pure with a ((4,1), 1) = (10,1) commutator, where every move of the (4,1) is an "anti"-move as described above. (It looks like an irregular string of 10 moves in regular notation.)

I took 262 moves, but with better skill in the first stage and some luck I ought to be able to do sub-200.
What a difficult puzzle this is! I finally got around to solving it tonight. I could not find any (4,1) sequence as you describe that would work. I reasoned that in regular moves on a Rubik's cube, the (4,1) sequence you need should isolate a edge (or 3-cycle edges). I know a few (3,1) sequences to 3-cycle edges. When you translate a slice move into face moves or anti-moves it becomes 2 moves which would make the sequences (4,1). Unfortunately all of the sequences I could come up with left too many side-effects in the regular edges that prevented me from commutating any of the new edges pure.

I wound up translating this normal Rubik's edge 3-cycle "[R2,U'], [F'&2,U2,F&2], [U',R2]" into anti-moves and commutating it (9,1). Even though this saves 2 moves over your suggested ((4,1),1) routine, I was very inefficient at cycling these new edges so I still took more than 400 moves for the solve. This is one of the rare puzzles where I almost thought I couldn't solve without macros.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 2:35 pm 
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UMichSpeedCubist wrote:
It's been a VERY long time since I've done GB puzzles or visited this forum
It has! You have been missed and it's great to hear from you.

UMichSpeedCubist wrote:
FYI, I have not taken the time to catch up on this thread.
Some highlights:

* schuma attained the unofficial title of Twisty Puzzle Grandmaster quite some time ago by completing Gelatinbrain, and he has continued to solve every puzzle added since then. Amazing!

* Interesting posts from members around the world who joined this thread after you left, including some great outlines and solves. Remember 1.1.17, which took us both over 2000 moves? Elwyn spotted a Megaminx hidden in the puzzle and solved it in 720 moves using reduction. :shock:

UMichSpeedCubist wrote:
I think that out of all the remaining puzzles (mostly the new ones that got added after my time), that 5.1.18 is the most interesting for me. It seems simple enough...
You have lots of treats in store! The circle pieces in the new circle puzzles range from singles, twins, triplets, and even in one case quadruplets! Some have no obvious physical equivalent to any other known non-circle twisty puzzle, and you never know just from looking at a puzzle whether those pieces will be easy or medium or hard to solve.

Then there are the "weird" series like 3.9.x (cubes within cubes), 3.10.x (sliding tiles), 3.11.x (spinning atoms)...


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 4:54 pm 
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I just updated the exe version. Click "win32..." on my signature below. No x64 native version yet. I think 64bit Windows supports 32 app emulatation mode. But I don't know how to activate it, simply because I don't have a x64 machine.
If someone want to compile a native x64 version, I'm willing to share my source.

It's really nice to see old members come back.
After Doug, I saw the name of Daniel Devitt too on the scorebord. :D

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 5:41 pm 
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I finally got around to trying to solve 4.3.1 today and discovered it has an invisible orientation that must be correct to get all of the orbits solvable:
Attachment:
4.3.1_broken_corners.png
4.3.1_broken_corners.png [ 15.15 KiB | Viewed 3061 times ]
Note that the B piece won't ever go in the A slot. This is just like 1.4.8. I wasn't anticipating problems but it's always nice to be surprised. I guess I'll have to find the right orientation so a few faces worth of wide-triangles can be solved before I place corners.

I already solved 4.3.6 which is the shallower cut version but it has a fixed, visible orientation. When I solved the edge wings on it, some of my 3-cycles needed an obscene number of setup moves. Did others find the setup moves for the edge-wing pieces quite numerous and challenging on 4.3.1 and 4.3.6 or am I missing something obvious?

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 6:53 pm 
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bmenrigh wrote:
Did others find the setup moves for the edge-wing pieces quite numerous and challenging on 4.3.1 and 4.3.6 or am I missing something obvious?
I haven't solved 4.3.1 yet, but when I solved 4.3.6 I had similar problems. You might have noticed my lovely move count of 1408 moves? Exactly this was the cause. So from my point of view, no, you are not missing something obvious. But there's the possibility that I'm also missing it :lol: But this is very typical for an edge-turning puzzle; set-ups are hard, confusing and long. I'm pretty sure there's a way to shorten them down a lot, but then you would have to think efficiently and that's not my number one skill when it comes to puzzles. However, I'm certain a system could be worked out. Julian said this a while back:
Julian wrote:
Little Chop setups are really tough, but for a whole new level of evilness try playing around with the petal-shaped circle pieces of 3.3.10 and 3.3.11! I found the setups so difficult for 3.3.7 and 4.3.3 that a while ago I wrote a table of all the possibilities (by my count, 64 perms not including reflective symmetries, 93 perms including). All of them are reachable in a maximum of 6 setup moves from the perm of my (10,1) cycle. I suspect the same is true with Katja's (7,1) cycle.


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 9:59 pm 
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OMG, I just did my very first 5.1.18 solve in 81 turns! New FM record. (only 6 ppl solved it, and their turn counts: 104, 120, 127, 129, 216, 245)

I was pretty sure I had lost my touch, but now I'm pretty excited. I solved it using a slightly different system. I would explain it but it's very hard to name the various peices in this puzzle. I left the tiny eye-shaped pieces to the very end, and figured out a pure way of cycling them in an 8-turn alg.

I think I could use fewer moves on my next solve...


-Doug

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 1:21 am 
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gelatinbrain wrote:
After Doug, I saw the name of Daniel Devitt too on the scorebord. :D

Glad to see I was noticed. :) I wouldn't consider myself "back", because I'm still swamped with other, mostly school-related things to do (the reason I left, if you don't remember). However, I will probably be messing around with the latest puzzles in my spare time. So far I've solved two more puzzles, the teraminx and 3.10.1, the latter of which I managed to get first place in for both time and moves.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 1:38 am 
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Gelatinbrain has brought us gifts :D
Attachment:
gifts.png
gifts.png [ 13.46 KiB | Viewed 3007 times ]


Doug: impressive solve for 5.1.18, clearly you still have the skills!

Danny: welcome back! Hopefully you find the time for more solves.


Edit: playing with the slices-only 1.1.8 is strange. I keep wanting to turn those faces. It makes finding short routines pretty hard. Using the "anti-moves" idea from 5.1.18 / 3.1.31 I managed to build a few commutators off of a 1.1.8 wide-triangle 3-cycle. Currently my best routines are: corners pure (8,1); centers non-pure (4,1); wide triangles pure (18,1); thin triangles pure (16,1).

I could cut 2 moves off of either the wide triangle or thin triangle sequence if I let one move pieces form the other. Since I haven't given in to macro use yet I'll have to find some shorter routines...


Edit 2: Gelatinbrain also made 2 more Circle curvy-cut cubes (3.1.33, 3.1.34). They are subtly different from 3.1.32 in how the circle pieces move (or don't move) for a given turn or anti-turn. 3.1.34 is shift-click enabled. So far I haven't found a way to cycle the + centers in the circle on 3.1.32.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 4:56 am 
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I'm sure the issue has been brought up before, but what's up with the number of puzzles? I count 339 on the front page, the stats page is reporting 358, and schuma has apparently solved 358. I assume that there are some puzzles that are only accessible through the menus. However, if 3 more puzzles were just added, schuma obviously couldn't have already solved them. So how many puzzles are there really, why are some of them not on the front page, and how the hell did schuma solve nearly all of the puzzles?

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 10:33 am 
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Danny Devitt wrote:
I'm sure the issue has been brought up before, but what's up with the number of puzzles? I count 339 on the front page, the stats page is reporting 358, and schuma has apparently solved 358. I assume that there are some puzzles that are only accessible through the menus. However, if 3 more puzzles were just added, schuma obviously couldn't have already solved them. So how many puzzles are there really, why are some of them not on the front page, and how the hell did schuma solve nearly all of the puzzles?


There are many puzzles that are accessible only through the menu but not through the front page. To access these puzzles, one needs to open the GB applet by selecting ANY puzzle, then browse the puzzles from the "File" menu in the top left corner of the applet. According to my count, there are 361 puzzles in total, I have solved 358 of them. I haven't solved the three new ones: 1.1.44, 1.1.45, and 1.2.17. I do have solved 3.1.33 and 3.1.34 yesterday. Statistics page shows 358 in total, probably because GB hasn't yet updated this number.

As a reference, here is an itemized counting of all 361 puzzles as of today (if I counted correctly):

100 dodecahedra:
1.1.*: 49
1.2.*: 22
1.3.*: 13
1.4.*: 13
1.5.*: 3

41 icosahedra:
2.1.*: 11
2.2.*: 27
2.3.*: 2
2.4.*: 1

135 cubes:
3.1.*: 41
3.2.*: 13
3.3.*: 18
3.4.*: 23
3.5.*: 3
3.6.*: 6
3.7.*: 15
3.8.*: 0 (3.8.* used to be the arrow cubes. But they were renamed as 3.1.1c, 3.1.2c, and 3.1.3c)
3.9.*: 6
3.10.*: 8
3.11.*: 2

39 octahedra:
4.1.*: 16
4.2.*: 10
4.3.*: 6
4.4.*: 1
4.5.*: 2
4.6.*: 2
4.7.*: 2

29 tetrahedra:
5.1.*: 19
5.2.*: 8
5.3.*: 2

14 balls:
6.1.*: 9
6.2.*: 3
6.3.*: 2

3 2D puzzles:
7.1.*: 3


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 10:47 am 
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Alright, thanks. I'm still wondering how you managed to solve over 150 more puzzles than anyone else though.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 4:45 pm 
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1.3.2 solved 8-)
Attachment:
Skjermbilde 2010-12-30 kl. 22.26.02.png
Skjermbilde 2010-12-30 kl. 22.26.02.png [ 72.21 KiB | Viewed 2946 times ]
I have a headache :lol:

I've wanted to solve this puzzle for some time, but finding algorithms for it is really hard. I know I could have used reduction to a Pentultimate, but I didn't want to do that in case I got a single corner twisted. I really have no idea how to fix that parity yet. Anyways, I solved the Pentultimate pieces and then used a non-pure 23 move algo for the thin triangles, and then I commuted that commutator to cycle 3 wide triangles pure in 54 moves. Despite having such long algorithms I ended up at 3438 moves :shock: I reckon that's pretty good, especially for me.

I'll be sure to look for shorter routines at a later time, and it will be interesting to see how much better I can do with shorter ones. But now that I've solved it, I'm so much more impressed with Elwyn's 708 moves!


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 5:07 pm 
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Katten wrote:
1.3.2 solved 8-)
Attachment:
Skjermbilde 2010-12-30 kl. 22.26.02.png
I have a headache :lol:

I've wanted to solve this puzzle for some time, but finding algorithms for it is really hard. I know I could have used reduction to a Pentultimate, but I didn't want to do that in case I got a single corner twisted. I really have no idea how to fix that parity yet. Anyways, I solved the Pentultimate pieces and then used a non-pure 23 move algo for the thin triangles, and then I commuted that commutator to cycle 3 wide triangles pure in 54 moves. Despite having such long algorithms I ended up at 3438 moves :shock: I reckon that's pretty good, especially for me.

I'll be sure to look for shorter routines at a later time, and it will be interesting to see how much better I can do with shorter ones. But now that I've solved it, I'm so much more impressed with Elwyn's 708 moves!
Good job, this is not an easy puzzle. Some pages ago we discussed short routines for this puzzle. I can't find it but if I recall correctly, using only 1 or 2 setup moves plus mixing a face and a vertex turn as far apart as possible (1,1) you can isolate either a wide triangle or a thin triangle. This is (5,1) or (6,1).

As for reducing to a Pentultimate, you can fix the corner twist problem somewhat efficiently using the routines from this conversation. Basically you want:

[DCG,JEK,DCG',
IJL,EAD,IJL',
DCG,JEK',DCG',
IJL',EAD,IJL,]x2


I'm pretty sure with the availability of face moves, this routine could be made cleaner or even pure. I suppose the side-effects only matter depending on how far along in the solve you are before you need to apply it.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 8:03 pm 
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gelatinbrain wrote:
I just updated the exe version. Click "win32..." on my signature below. No x64 native version yet. I think 64bit Windows supports 32 app emulatation mode. But I don't know how to activate it, simply because I don't have a x64 machine.
Thanks! It works perfectly with my 64-bit Windows 7.


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 8:10 pm 
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bmenrigh wrote:
4.3.1 ... When I solved the edge wings on it, some of my 3-cycles needed an obscene number of setup moves. Did others find the setup moves for the edge-wing pieces quite numerous and challenging on 4.3.1 and 4.3.6 or am I missing something obvious?
They are tricky, but I think the "worst case scenario" is 9-10 setup moves.


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 8:27 pm 
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UMichSpeedCubist wrote:
I left the tiny eye-shaped pieces to the very end, and figured out a pure way of cycling them in an 8-turn alg.
:idea: I experimented tonight and found such an algo (4 pairs of opposite turns).

Edit: Since then I have found a method that saves some moves with the eye pieces by solving them earlier on.

5.1.18 Solution Outline
Attachment:
GB 5-1-18.png
GB 5-1-18.png [ 11.81 KiB | Viewed 2884 times ]

1. Solve the 1 pieces with a few face moves.

2. Solve the 2 pieces. They come in pairs and represent hidden/virtual Pyraminx edges on the opposite side of the puzzle. They can be cycled with 4-move algos, like Pyraminx edges, but the confusing thing is that we have to deal with a face-turns-only Pyraminx, because vertex moves have no effect on these pieces.

3. Pair the 3 and 4 pieces using 3-move algos.

4. Pair the 5 and 6 pieces using 5-move algos.

5. Solve the reduced Pyraminx using only vertex moves.

Vertex setup sequences for stages 3 and 4 do not need to be undone, saving moves.

I got a lucky solve of 61 moves, with a stage breakdown of 3 + 8 + 15+ 23 + 12. A couple of 3-cycles were possible in stage 3, and when starting stage 4, five out of the 12 wedges were already paired. (In theory one could combine stages 1 and 2 to save moves, but recognition of the virtual edges would be mind-boggling!)


Last edited by Julian on Fri Dec 31, 2010 9:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Fri Dec 31, 2010 4:29 pm 
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Happy new year to all of you. 8-)
Today I solved this guy:
Attachment:
3.1.2b.png
3.1.2b.png [ 19.98 KiB | Viewed 2907 times ]
I will continue with 3.1.2c
Interesting 5.1.18 solution, Julian. Maybe worth a try.
Stay happy! Stefan


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sat Jan 01, 2011 1:55 pm 
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5.1.19 Solution Outline
Attachment:
GB 5-1-19.png
GB 5-1-19.png [ 12.98 KiB | Viewed 2894 times ]

1. Pair the 1 and 2 edge pieces.

2. Solve piece types 1-4 like a face-moves-only Halpern-Meier Pyramid (Jing Pyraminx):
Attachment:
GB 5-1-19 partial reduction.png
GB 5-1-19 partial reduction.png [ 70.83 KiB | Viewed 2734 times ]
* There is just one problem: you might come across a 3-cycle of center pieces, which you will need to fix by twisting the centers into their correct position with a single vertex move. Unfortunately this breaks 3 of the edges. To fix the broken edges at the end of the stage, cycle three type 2 pieces with a (5,1) commutator (5.1.9 knowledge with a tweak).

3. Cycle the 5 pieces, which come in pairs, with 8-move algos (4 pairs of opposite turns).

4. Cycle the 6 pieces, which come in pairs, with (5,1) commutators.

5. Cycle the 7 pieces pure with (6,1) commutators.


I took 227 moves, including needing to fix the orientation issue mentioned in stage 2. Sub-200 should be possible with a bit of luck.


Last edited by Julian on Tue Jan 04, 2011 3:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sat Jan 01, 2011 4:33 pm 
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I just solved 2.1.0 on the downloadable thing from gelatinbrain's signature. I hit the submit button, but wil that make me go in the ranks?
The websiteapplet doesn't work for my laptop, or any computer I have access to, so I hope it does.

Otherwise:
ba1fb92d0899ab3197e2af33e719cd32
a7a34fb19d623bc4979c2fd19b6437c8
9e6a3dc37688ec055ebfbc626e58dc21
7a85f40bd926b34c7986f20db946738c

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Negyvenháromtrillió-kétszázötvenkétbilliárd-hárombillió-kétszázhetvennégymiliárd-négyszáznyolcvankilencmillió-nyolcszázötvenhatezer :wink: )


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sat Jan 01, 2011 6:37 pm 
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Sjoerd wrote:
I just solved 2.1.0 on the downloadable thing from gelatinbrain's signature. I hit the submit button, but wil that make me go in the ranks?
I usually do solves from the standalone version nowadays, and my scores have always registered so far. Your 2.1.0 solve is there in the rankings, but there are some extra characters after your name so it doesn't count towards your total as Sjoerd.


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sat Jan 01, 2011 7:12 pm 
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Hi gelatinbrian, I report that first to you :D :
I played 5.1.18 on the exe and got a certificate of 88 moves with two pieces wrong oriented :?
and regarding the 5.1.18 solve:
Julian wrote:
...
I experimented tonight and found such an algo (4 pairs of opposite turns).

Edit: Since then I have found a method that saves some moves with the eye pieces by solving them earlier on.

5.1.18 Solution Outline

GB 5-1-18.png [ 11.81 KiB | Viewed 61 times ]

1. Solve the 1 pieces with a few face moves.

2. Solve the 2 pieces. They come in pairs and represent hidden/virtual Pyraminx edges on the opposite side of the puzzle. They can be cycled with 4-move algos, like Pyraminx edges, but the confusing thing is that we have to deal with a face-turns-only Pyraminx, because vertex moves have no effect on these pieces. ...

Yes you can shrink the 8 move algo in just not doing the vertex moves - thats clever. My best result was 85, but with good luck maybe i get lesser. for the corners and the tiny pieces: 11, reducing 4 to 3: 18 moves, reducing 5 to 6: 36 moves and for the reduces pyraminx: 20 moves = 85. I solved that some time bevore but had totally forgotten how. I slowly remeber it was about the same, but not as clever as this.


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun Jan 02, 2011 11:21 am 
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5.1.18
Stefan Schwalbe wrote:
My best result was 85, but with good luck maybe i get lesser. for the corners and the tiny pieces: 11, reducing 4 to 3: 18 moves, reducing 5 to 6: 36 moves and for the reduces pyraminx: 20 moves = 85.
I think you were unlucky with piece types 5 and 6 there. On average 3 out of the 12 wedge pieces will be paired already, and for a low move count we hope for 5 or more paired already, and to finish them in a maximum of 3 cycles. 3 cycles with 2-3 setups each = 21-24 moves, which already saves you 12-15 moves.

Also, I suggest you be more ruthless with the final Pyraminx stage! :twisted: I never accept more than 16 moves; if I take longer than that then I don't finish but I click Undo and try again. It can take me a while (sometimes 15+ mins), but I have always been able to solve the Pyraminx in <=16 moves. My approach is to try to solve one face/layer completely in 8 moves, then finish the rest in 8 moves. I try to solve each color first in turn various ways, then if that doesn't work I try intuitive blockbuilding, then if that doesn't work I try every possible first move (8 possibilities) and go from there. (According to Jaap Scherphuis's computer analysis, the vast majority of Pyraminx scrambles can be solved in 9 moves, and never more than 11 moves, so there is enough wiggle room for we humans to aim for <=16 moves! :) )

I think there is a good chance that if you try another few times you will get a sub-70 solve and perhaps set a new record.


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun Jan 02, 2011 12:01 pm 
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Julian wrote:
Sjoerd wrote:
I just solved 2.1.0 on the downloadable thing from gelatinbrain's signature. I hit the submit button, but wil that make me go in the ranks?
I usually do solves from the standalone version nowadays, and my scores have always registered so far. Your 2.1.0 solve is there in the rankings, but there are some extra characters after your name so it doesn't count towards your total as Sjoerd.


Hmm that's too bad. I didn't type them there, I'm pretty sure of that.

Another downside of this version is that it doesn't have the algorithm bar. And as my records suggest, I used that a lot!

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Negyvenháromtrillió-kétszázötvenkétbilliárd-hárombillió-kétszázhetvennégymiliárd-négyszáznyolcvankilencmillió-nyolcszázötvenhatezer :wink: )


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun Jan 02, 2011 1:50 pm 
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The stats page now says /362 puzzles, so apparently one got added. Anyone know which it is? I've been gone too long, so half the puzzles look new to me.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun Jan 02, 2011 2:38 pm 
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I've never seen the 1.1.45, maybe that's the new one, and it looks awesome!

- Greg :)

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun Jan 02, 2011 3:01 pm 
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Hi Julian, thanks for the pyraminx tricks, my best move-count is now 72. :D And I hit the time record with 7:13, Michael has anyway too many records. :mrgreen:
I found my old 5.1.19 sheet. I will try 5.1.19 again and look where it differs from your solution outline. Maybe yours is shorter. I'm now a bit tidier and have a physical file where I collect all my solutions.
Doug Cube, I guess you are a good challenger.
Stefan


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