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 Post subject: Looking for advice...
PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 2:14 pm 
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All,

I'm now a few hours of POV-Ray coding away from being able to present my newest and potentially most marketable puzzle yet. All other puzzles in this family/class have seen mass production and this one hasn't been designed or made by anyone else to date. I want to post a ton of pretty pictures here but if this design is worth anything (I think it is) I wonder if that would be a bad idea.

I have one of my designs 90% of the way to something that I can put up on Shapeways and this will be there too eventually but I wanted to see if there was anything else you guys would recommend. If I should get a patent any idea the easiest, least exensive, way to do that?

Thoughts...
Carl

P.S. Yes, I know I don't say what this puzzle is (in this post). But I will say it popped into my head in a moment of perfect clarity 5 days ago and work on my Mixup Master Skewb was put on hold as this one will blow that puzzle out of the water. I've been busy porting the shapes out of my head and into POV-Ray for the last few days. And I'm more then eager to share... just don't want to shoot myself in the foot by doing so.

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 Post subject: Re: Looking for advice...
PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 2:27 pm 
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Well, if you really want to get a patent, you won't want to publicly share your design.
There are pretty much two options for getting a patent: writing it yourself or having a lawyer write it. The first is cheap but the patent will probably be unenforceable, the second is expensive. I'm not sure how much it would actually cost you to get a patent but I do know that it would cost a lot to enforce/maintain it.

For now, your best bet is probably to get some proof of your copyright (print out a few pictures and a description, then get the post office to stamp that document it with the date). It's free and also pretty worthless, but at least when it comes to court, you will be able to make a reasonable attempt to prove you are the copyright owner.

You've probably heard that there are regular patents and design patents. The European equivalent of a design patent is a design right and it is actually quite affordable. But still, it only gives limited protection. And since getting a patent equals full disclosure, you're giving KO-manufacturers a head start. Your best bet is probably to flood the market at once.

Why not approach some potential manufacturers about your design? They are the ones that have most experience with regards to patentability.

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 Post subject: Re: Looking for advice...
PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 3:09 pm 
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TomZ wrote:
Well, if you really want to get a patent, you won't want to publicly share your design.
That's why I started this thread first.
TomZ wrote:
There are pretty much two options for getting a patent: writing it yourself or having a lawyer write it. The first is cheap but the patent will probably be unenforceable, the second is expensive. I'm not sure how much it would actually cost you to get a patent but I do know that it would cost a lot to enforce/maintain it.
Both sound like good reasons NOT to get a patent.
TomZ wrote:
For now, your best bet is probably to get some proof of your copyright (print out a few pictures and a description, then get the post office to stamp that document it with the date). It's free and also pretty worthless, but at least when it comes to court, you will be able to make a reasonable attempt to prove you are the copyright owner.
Couldn't a post here with pictures do the same thing if all I want is copyright?
TomZ wrote:
You've probably heard that there are regular patents and design patents. The European equivalent of a design patent is a design right and it is actually quite affordable. But still, it only gives limited protection. And since getting a patent equals full disclosure, you're giving KO-manufacturers a head start. Your best bet is probably to flood the market at once.
Well all I could do myself is shapeways and I'd hardly call that flooding the market.
TomZ wrote:
Why not approach some potential manufacturers about your design? They are the ones that have most experience with regards to patentability.
Any out there that would likely give me the time of day? I have yet to get my first design on Shapeways and none of them know me aside from possibly my presence here at Twistypuzzles. And even though this is a fundamental puzzle, no slidey parts, no fudging, its geometry is very complicated. I'm leaning toward showing pictures and seeing then if anyone wants to produce it.

Carl

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 Post subject: Re: Looking for advice...
PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 3:20 pm 
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wwwmwww wrote:
Couldn't a post here with pictures do the same thing if all I want is copyright?
Yes - and no. A post on here would be easier to forge than a stamped document, so in the view of a judge having a stamped document is probably better. But neither offers much protection at all.

wwwmwww wrote:
Well all I could do myself is shapeways and I'd hardly call that flooding the market.
I meant that a manufacturer would flood the market on your behalf.

Posting pictures in the hopes that manufacturer would pick them up is probably not a good idea. Since a potential manufacturer would like to make sure that a KO-company won't beat them to market...

wwwmwww wrote:
Any out there that would likely give me the time of day? I have yet to get my first design on Shapeways and none of them know me aside from possibly my presence here at Twistypuzzles.
That is probably not much of a problem. The manufacturer would have the puzzle completely redesigned for manufacturing anyways so your designing skills aren't very relevant.

I see that you are speaking of "very complicated geometry". Does that equal a very difficult solving experience? If so, it's probably not very marketable and you might best just go ahead and publicize it. However, if you feel it is marketable you might want to hold off posting it for a while.

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 Post subject: Re: Looking for advice...
PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 4:45 pm 
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I think as a forum we should get a lawyer that can patent a lot of these puzzles that really deserve it. If we all go in together it may not be to high of a price.


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 Post subject: Re: Looking for advice...
PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 4:55 pm 
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OK Carl, here is what I would do:

1. If I could fund myself, I would pay for patents etc. but ALWAYS depending on how much
I believe that my design could become a hit.

2. If I could not fund myself, I would seek assistance from established puzzle makers.
But BEFORE showing them anything, I would ask them to sign a confidentiality agreement.
In this case, and if the deal goes through, I will leave it up to them (and their marketers)
to decide what type of IP protection is needed. The confidentiality agreement will not guarantee
you that your design details won't leak, but it can be a big blow to the puzzle maker's integrity.

:)


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 Post subject: Re: Looking for advice...
PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 6:36 pm 
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I would try contacting mefferts about it. I'm sure he knows if it would make a great mass produced puzzle or not and he has the ability to produce it.

Are quibamis mass produced? If so, how did they start out?

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 Post subject: Re: Looking for advice...
PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 7:12 pm 
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PuzzleMaster6262 wrote:
Are qubamis mass produced? If so, how did they start out?

Currently they're kind of "semi-mass produced": the parts are injection-moulded in China, but I have to assemble and sticker them myself by hand, when I have time (which I don't right now) and until I out-source assembly together with production. I applied for both patents and design patents, just to be on the safe side, though I prepared the applications myself to keep costs down. Still, the patents are MUCH more expensive than the design patents, which were "only" a few hundred bucks and might provide enough protection even without the patents.

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 Post subject: Re: Looking for advice...
PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2010 4:46 pm 
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wwwmwww wrote:
I'm now a few hours of POV-Ray coding away from being able to present my newest and potentially most marketable puzzle yet.
Well a few hours turned into a few weeks. But I finally got the new puzzle stuck in my head head "out" and into POV-Ray. This is a puzzle I'm going to call the Real5x5x5 ©Carl Hoff October 23, 2010.

Image

Your typical 5x5x5 doesn't have 125 pieces to solve. It should be called a 5x5x5-27.

After seeing this thread: http://twistypuzzles.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=19152 I'm less certain my puzzle will be that marketable. The number of parts and the complexity of their shapes really puts this puzzle in a class that I think would be too complex to see mass production. But I'll hold off on showing the insides for just a bit.

The family of nxnxn puzzles has seen mass production. I believe we have:

(1) 1x1x1 produced
(2) 2x2x2 produced
(3) 3x3x3 produced
(4) 4x4x4 produced
(5) 5x5x5 produced
(6) 6x6x6 produced
(7) 7x7x7 produced
(8) 8x8x8 I don't think this is available
(9) 9x9x9 produced (but in violation of the the V-cube patent)
(10) 10x10x10 I don't think this is available
(11) 11x11x11 produced (but in violation of the the V-cube patent)

And if we look at the multi nxnxn puzzles they too have been on a trend to see mass production.

(1) 1x1x1 (same puzzle as above)
(2) 2x2x2 (same as a normal 2x2x2)
(3) 3x3x3 (circle 3x3x3... well all the parts needed to make one have been mass produced. You need to get a couple Crazy 3x3x3 Plus puzzles to make one)
(4) 4x4x4 (Crazy 4x4x4 puzzle)
(5) Real5x5x5 ©Carl Hoff October 23, 2010
(6) Real6x6x6 is doable with the same mech as the Real5x5x5

I suspect this can be generalized to allow even higher order Multi-nxnxn puzzles but the outer layers need to get wider as they are added. The green face center on the Real5x5x5 is the size of a single cubie on a proportional 8x8x8 of the same size as this Real5x5x5. A Real6x6x6 would be the size of a 16x16x16 built out of cubies the size of its face centers. So even if higher orders are doable they become impractical rather quickly and this Real5x5x5 is probably already past that line with regards to mass production.

That said... this is an open letter to ANY puzzle producers that may want to produce this design. If you want to produce this puzzle PM me and let me know. If there isn't any interest I'll likely start a thread here about this puzzle and post a ton of pictures of its mech in a week or so. It contains the most complex 1x1x1 I've seen to date. Over that is a 3x3x3 and over that a 5x5x5.

If you know any puzzle makers PLEASE feel free to point them to this thread. I know just a few and none on a personal basis. And considering I'm still a few weeks away from getting my Mixup Circle Cube, aka Thorny Cube on Shapeways which means I'm still an unproven designer. So I'm not really expecting this to fly. Without a working prototype I can't even say with certainty that my mech for this puzzle will work.

Carl

P.S. Yes I know I left off one piece on the surface... but that piece contains no new info and would just make the puzzle bigger if added so I thought it best to leave it off.

P.S.S. Thanks to bobthegiraffemonkey's post here. It was his post that caused this mech to pop into my head in the first place. And yes it was a painfully long process to get it out. :D

P.S.S.S I have a ton more I want to say about this puzzle but I'll save that for the post I expect to be making next weekend.

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Last edited by wwwmwww on Mon Oct 25, 2010 8:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Looking for advice...
PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2010 5:13 pm 
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Nice! How many solving pieces does it have and how many real pieces does it have?

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 Post subject: Re: Looking for advice...
PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2010 5:41 pm 
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PuzzleMaster6262 wrote:
Nice! How many solving pieces does it have and how many real pieces does it have?
Well 5x5x5 = 125 so there are 125 piece to solve in this puzzle. Granted many of them are discontinuous volumes so they appear to be several pieces but they behave as one. For example a 3x3x3 Face center in this puzzle is 5 seperate pieces... only 4 of them are visible from the surface.

As for how many real pieces? The answer is ALL of them. There are no virtual or imaginary pieces here. It may be possible to turn this into a Complex 3x3x3 with some fancy external bandaging.

Imagine this same puzzle but with all the red corners fixed in space so you are limited to face turns. Now out of each green face center you have a spider structure which needed to be pushed in to turn that face. When you push it in, it grips the edge of that face so everything turns on that face except the ring containing the red corners. Make that mech and bond all the red pieces together and you have a Complex 3x3x3.

Carl

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 Post subject: Re: Looking for advice...
PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 12:56 am 
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I suggest that you edit your posting with a description how it turn although I have an idea.
ByTheWay: Well made.


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 Post subject: Re: Looking for advice...
PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 7:53 am 
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wwwmwww wrote:
It contains the most complex 1x1x1 I've seen to date.
hahaha that's gotten me interested (not that the picture hadn't already)
wwwmwww wrote:
As for how many real pieces? The answer is ALL of them.
I think he might have meant mechanism parts not real/imaginary pieces but i could be wrong. Either way i'd be interested in both.

Very nice puzzle idea (and picture), i hope you get what you want out of it.

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 Post subject: Re: Looking for advice...
PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 6:22 pm 
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Elwyn wrote:
I think he might have meant mechanism parts not real/imaginary pieces but i could be wrong. Either way i'd be interested in both.
Ahhh I see. Here is what you want:
Image

There are 269 parts inside this thing not counting screws or other hardware added to hold it together. If this were to get produced you'd need to make 16 molds (17 if you wanted the one surface piece I left off which was part of the 5x5x5 Wing piece). The other 5x5x5 Wing piece has two adjacent faces exposed which is enough to give it a unique position and orientation so the piece I left off adds nothing new.
Elwyn wrote:
Very nice puzzle idea (and picture), i hope you get what you want out of it.
If all I get is the joy of designing it (which I've already done) then I'm happy. Anything else is just icing on the cake.

By the way, the maker that I think has the most experience with puzzles with this many parts and complexity might be V-Cubes. Anyone know an email address for someone there that might be interested in this? It can't hurt to ask.

Carl

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 Post subject: Re: Looking for advice...
PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 6:25 pm 
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Andreas Nortmann wrote:
I suggest that you edit your posting with a description how it turn although I have an idea.
ByTheWay: Well made.
Thanks... great suggestion. Working on a few pics now.

Carl

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 Post subject: Re: Looking for advice...
PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 8:53 am 
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wwwmwww wrote:
wwwmwww wrote:
P.S.S. Thanks to bobthegiraffemonkey's post here. It was his post that caused this mech to pop into my head in the first place. And yes it was a painfully long process to get it out. :D


Well it's safe to say I would be interested in picking one up if it became mass produced (as if it wasn't obvious) so I hope you find a producer. Nice work on getting the mech mate :D. Also, good idea to leave that piece out, I wouldn't have thought of doing that!

Matt


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 Post subject: Re: Looking for advice...
PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 8:19 pm 
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Here is another pic. Finally had a time to sort out the pieces by layers.

Image

And an animation of a turn of the layer just below the top layer.

Image

The turn of the top layer is rendering now.

Carl

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 Post subject: Re: Looking for advice...
PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 8:51 pm 
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wwwmwww wrote:
Here is another pic. Finally had a time to sort out the pieces by layers.
Beautiful puzzle Carl! This looks equivalent to Gelatinbrain's 3.1.17 puzzle. I'm surprise a physical realizable mechanism exists for this puzzle!

Gelatinbrain also has 3.1.14 and 3.1.20 which are similar but the ring/circle pieces follow different layers.

Those extra pieces are quite fun to figure out and solve.

Edit: It might not be totally equivalent. I'm bad at looking at a puzzle in one form and trying to relate it to a puzzle in another form.

Edit2: They aren't equivalent. The diameter of the inner circle on 1.1.17 needs to be increased until it crosses into the outer layer, making the ring quite thin. That will hide the face of the inner 3x3x3 edge (but leave the sides) and reveal new pieces that I can't figure out without twisting mentally twisting the puzzle some more.

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 Post subject: Re: Looking for advice...
PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 11:13 pm 
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Beautiful design & rendering, carl.
I'm wondering however, up to mass production, handling could be a problem. And will the smaller pieces rattle(with tolerance included)? Maybe I should suppose you've considered these aspects.


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 Post subject: Re: Looking for advice...
PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 4:09 am 
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I am not ashamed to admit that I caught myself starring at the last rendering
animation for 2-3 minutes. I was almost hypnotised! Simple, elegant and colorful.
(It would surely score high in the prettiness formula for puzzles!)

Just one question Carl, do the colors correspond to the same pieces?
(that is, if the same piece has visible parts on different faces of the cube)

Thanks!

:)


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 Post subject: Re: Looking for advice...
PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 10:16 am 
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wwwmwww wrote:
Here is another pic. Finally had a time to sort out the pieces by layers. [...] The turn of the top layer is rendering now. Carl
Hi Carl,

Based on my experience with Crazy Six, I hope you find a mechanism that is more stable than mine ...

Oskar

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 Post subject: Re: Looking for advice...
PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 10:38 pm 
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bmenrigh wrote:
Beautiful puzzle Carl! This looks equivalent to Gelatinbrain's 3.1.17 puzzle. I'm surprise a physical realizable mechanism exists for this puzzle!
I'm pretty sure a working mechanism exists... how well it works I'm not sure. I will have to get it in a form I can put up at shapeways first. But I'm very excited to see this puzzle made.

bmenrigh wrote:
Gelatinbrain also has 3.1.14 and 3.1.20 which are similar but the ring/circle pieces follow different layers.

Those extra pieces are quite fun to figure out and solve.
They are easier to "figure out" then you think. I have a few ideas of animations I can make to help people "see" what these parts really are.

By the way... I was running Vista up until a few months ago. I purchased a ValetPlus which required me to install the Service Pack for Vista. Well I spent a weekend trying to install the Service Pack and left if running overnight just to awake to find it had totally fubared my PC. I was able to get my data off the harddrive and ended up buying Windows 7 just to get my PC runing again. Arg!!! But I digress... the reason I mention this is ever since I upgraded to Windows 7 I can't get the apps at gelatinbrain to run. I have the lastest verson of java installed. And just today I tried downloading FireFox to see if I could get that to run the apps. No such luck. Anyone know if these will run with Windows 7? And if yes, what I may be doing wrong?

bmenrigh wrote:
Edit: It might not be totally equivalent. I'm bad at looking at a puzzle in one form and trying to relate it to a puzzle in another form.
Give me a few days and I think I can help you on that front.

bmenrigh wrote:
Edit2: They aren't equivalent. The diameter of the inner circle on 1.1.17 needs to be increased until it crosses into the outer layer, making the ring quite thin. That will hide the face of the inner 3x3x3 edge (but leave the sides) and reveal new pieces that I can't figure out without twisting mentally twisting the puzzle some more.
I can see this:

Image

I'm not certain which layers the circles turn with but I'll assume the smallest circle turns with the middle layer (2 layers in from the circle). Inside this circle you see:

(1) The core
(2) 3x3x3 Face centers
(3) 3x3x3 Edges

The next ring I'll assume turns with the layer 1 layer in from the circle. Inside that ring you see:

(3) 3x3x3 Edges
(4) 3x3x3 Corners
(5) 5x5x5 T-Centers
(6) 5x5x5 X-Centers

And outside this ring. The part being shown turned so I know how it works. You see:

(7) 5x5x5 Midges
(8) 5x5x5 Wings
(9) 5x5x5 Corners

So... the part you are missing is the 5x5x5 Face Centers which ARE present in mine. However, if I have the turning figured out correctly, 3.1.17 does contain more info about the 3x3x3 Edges than mine does. That can be fixed with a sticker variation.

Carl

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 Post subject: Re: Looking for advice...
PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 10:49 pm 
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Leslie Le wrote:
Beautiful design & rendering, carl.
Thanks...
Leslie Le wrote:
I'm wondering however, up to mass production, handling could be a problem. And will the smaller pieces rattle(with tolerance included)? Maybe I should suppose you've considered these aspects.
I have considered those aspects and I can't say I know all the correct answers. I'm NOT an experienced puzzle builder. But I believe if by no other means then trial and error the proper tolerances could be found that would allow this puzzle to function reasonably well. Until I have it printed I can't say for sure.

Carl

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 Post subject: Re: Looking for advice...
PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 11:01 pm 
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kastellorizo wrote:
I am not ashamed to admit that I caught myself starring at the last rendering
animation for 2-3 minutes. I was almost hypnotised! Simple, elegant and colorful.
(It would surely score high in the prettiness formula for puzzles!)
Thanks...

Here is another one for you:
Image

kastellorizo wrote:
Just one question Carl, do the colors correspond to the same pieces?
(that is, if the same piece has visible parts on different faces of the cube)


Yes, here is the key:

Core: light green
3x3x3 Face Centers: blue
3x3x3 Edges: magenta
3x3x3 Corners: red
5x5x5 Face Centers: orange
5x5x5 T-Centers: Yellow
5x5x5 X-Centers: Gray
5x5x5 Midges: Sky Blue
5x5x5 Wings: Forest Green
5x5x5 Corners: Purple

But keep in mind that in all cases but the core there is more then one piece of each type so just because you see two yellow parts that doesn't necessarily mean that are the same piece. They could be two pieces of the same type. I will show this puzzle broken down to the piece level soon.

Carl

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 Post subject: Re: Looking for advice...
PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 11:34 pm 
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Oskar wrote:
Hi Carl,

Based on my experience with Crazy Six, I hope you find a mechanism that is more stable than mine ...

Oskar
Thanks Oskar,

Judging from the pics of your mech at Shapeways I think mine is quite similiar to yours in some ways but there are a fair number of things I did differently too. My puzzle is one order simplier then yours so it has a 1 piece core that helps hold everything together. Where as yours is, in some ways, built up from a 2x2x2. You did leave off several pieces of a true Multi-6x6x6 where as I have everything in there... so its hard to say. To be honest if this works as well as your Crazy Six (it is functional after all) I'd be happy. As I have yet to make a single (real/physical) puzzle I have that fear in the back of my head that I may have over looked something and this thing may just fall apart mid turn. Even if it does I know ways to make the puzzle stronger and even more likely to stay together but then the shapes become even more complex and the over all puzzle bigger. Here I've tried to make the puzzle as "simple" as possible and still work. That said... this puzzle is still the most complex puzzle I've designed to date.

Is the issue with your Crazy Six one of tolerances? From what I see of the design it does look sound on paper. I'm guessing that if things were as tight as possible you might have assemply issues and as it appears to be built on top of a 2x2x2 adding springs to help keep things tight I believe would be complicated. As I have a simplier core I think I could add two levels of springs on each face, one to keep the inner 3x3x3 tight, and an outer spring to help keep the 5x5x5 tight. In your case you might benefit more from some magnets then springs just to help keep the pieces tighter, not to hold the puzzle together.

And that said... I feel like the plumber giving Mozart advice on composing music.

Carl

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 Post subject: Re: Looking for advice...
PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 11:36 pm 
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Latest animation just finished...

Image

You now see how all 3 layer types move.

Carl

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 Post subject: Re: Looking for advice...
PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 1:41 am 
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Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2009 8:54 pm
Location: Bay Area, California
wwwmwww wrote:
bmenrigh wrote:
Gelatinbrain also has 3.1.14 and 3.1.20 which are similar but the ring/circle pieces follow different layers.

Those extra pieces are quite fun to figure out and solve.
They are easier to "figure out" then you think. I have a few ideas of animations I can make to help people "see" what these parts really are.
Yes but I don't have the intuition and insight that you have :? . When I solved all of the Circle/Ring/Multi cubes on Gelatinbrain's site I had to go through quite a systematic process to eventually figure them out.

wwwmwww wrote:
By the way... I was running Vista up until a few months ago. I purchased a ValetPlus which required me to install the Service Pack for Vista. Well I spent a weekend trying to install the Service Pack and left if running overnight just to awake to find it had totally fubared my PC. I was able to get my data off the harddrive and ended up buying Windows 7 just to get my PC runing again. Arg!!! But I digress... the reason I mention this is ever since I upgraded to Windows 7 I can't get the apps at gelatinbrain to run. I have the lastest verson of java installed. And just today I tried downloading FireFox to see if I could get that to run the apps. No such luck. Anyone know if these will run with Windows 7? And if yes, what I may be doing wrong?
Unfortunately you aren't doing anything wrong. It seems a combination of Java updates and changes to the applet has caused the Java interpreter to think the applet requires special permissions. By default the JRE sandboxes the applet and that sandbox breaks it. Currently the only way to get the applet to run is to turn of the Java mixed code security sandbox. Turning off the mixed code protections is a security risk for any untrusted applet so you should only do so after thinking about the risks. I have a post about this here.

wwwmwww wrote:
bmenrigh wrote:
Edit: It might not be totally equivalent. I'm bad at looking at a puzzle in one form and trying to relate it to a puzzle in another form.
Give me a few days and I think I can help you on that front.
I was talking about trying to compare 1.1.17 side-by-side with your puzzle. I know how all the pieces on your puzzle work :D .

wwwmwww wrote:
bmenrigh wrote:
Edit2: They aren't equivalent. The diameter of the inner circle on 1.1.17 needs to be increased until it crosses into the outer layer, making the ring quite thin. That will hide the face of the inner 3x3x3 edge (but leave the sides) and reveal new pieces that I can't figure out without twisting mentally twisting the puzzle some more.
I can see this:

Image

I'm not certain which layers the circles turn with but I'll assume the smallest circle turns with the middle layer (2 layers in from the circle). Inside this circle you see:

(1) The core
(2) 3x3x3 Face centers
(3) 3x3x3 Edges

The next ring I'll assume turns with the layer 1 layer in from the circle. Inside that ring you see:

(3) 3x3x3 Edges
(4) 3x3x3 Corners
(5) 5x5x5 T-Centers
(6) 5x5x5 X-Centers

And outside this ring. The part being shown turned so I know how it works. You see:

(7) 5x5x5 Midges
(8) 5x5x5 Wings
(9) 5x5x5 Corners

So... the part you are missing is the 5x5x5 Face Centers which ARE present in mine. However, if I have the turning figured out correctly, 3.1.17 does contain more info about the 3x3x3 Edges than mine does. That can be fixed with a sticker variation.

Carl
Yes, you have the turning correct. I came to the same conclusion regarding the 5x5x5 face centers because that's how the equivalent pieces work on 1.1.19.

I see you've really strived to eliminate redundant views of the same pieces. I think you should include the wedge pieces cut out of the corner which are the sides of the green edges. Does the mechanism support having those pieces there?

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Prior to using my real name I posted under the account named bmenrigh.


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