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 Post subject: Shim's F-SkewbPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2010 10:23 am

Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2010 7:00 am
Location: Germany, Siegerland
Hi!

Idea of this puzzle is simple and I'm sure there are some who already had it before, but I have never seen it physically realized.

This is a Skewb with two-fold stretched "face square" and with four additional dino-cuts. Like a Master Skewb, it has 3x3x3x3 cuts system, but each one cutting layer of a pair is moved so it cuts vertices, thus reducing the number of elements and making the puzzle much easier to solve.

Mathematically it can also be considered as a TomZ's Dino Skewb that is bandaged over half of all face diagonals.

On each face one can see a Cyrillic letter Ф (or Greek Phi) which is read as F, that's why I named it F-Skewb.

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 Post subject: Re: Shim's F-SkewbPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2010 10:27 am

Joined: Sat Jul 11, 2009 1:09 pm
Location: My House
That's really cool but looks so simple, I like it.

Alex

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 Post subject: Re: Shim's F-SkewbPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2010 10:37 am

Joined: Thu Sep 24, 2009 12:21 pm
Location: Chichester, England
Awesome! Will this be sale on Shapeways? It looks like a junior version of the Dino Skewb, but yet it's only equivalent to being a bandaged one! Another great puzzle Shim.

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 Post subject: Re: Shim's F-SkewbPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2010 10:58 am

Joined: Fri Feb 06, 2009 2:57 pm
Location: Pittsburgh
I've seen sketches for this puzzle before, it's great to see the real thing!

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 Post subject: Re: Shim's F-SkewbPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2010 11:55 am

Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2010 11:48 am
Location: In Front Of My Teraminx (saying WTF?)
The first time I saw this was.... yesterday as a sketch!!!!!

- Greg

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 Post subject: Re: Shim's F-SkewbPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2010 12:33 pm

Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2004 7:03 am
Location: Koblenz, Germany
Argh!
At least, Timur did the hard job of classifying it for me.

Well done.

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 Post subject: Re: Shim's F-SkewbPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2010 1:59 pm

Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 3:59 pm
Location: NJ
Awesome Puzzle! I love it!

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 Post subject: Re: Shim's F-SkewbPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2010 2:42 pm

Joined: Sun Apr 30, 2006 4:17 am
Location: Düsseldorf, Germany
If you intend to sell it soon, it might be possible to show it at the DCD

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 Post subject: Re: Shim's F-SkewbPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2010 6:43 pm

Joined: Thu May 14, 2009 9:58 am
When will this and the master skewb be available on shapeways?

Its so tiny!

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 Post subject: Re: Shim's F-SkewbPosted: Sat Sep 25, 2010 6:45 am

Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2007 3:50 pm
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
I like it very very mich Timur! Congratulations on the build!

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 Post subject: Re: Shim's F-SkewbPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2010 12:08 am

Joined: Sat Mar 29, 2008 12:55 am
Location: WA, USA
This is extremely similar to the idea of a skewboid that was discussed in an earlier topic... in fact, I'd say this is a form of skewboid in fact.

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 Post subject: Re: Shim's F-SkewbPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 1:32 am

Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2010 7:00 am
Location: Germany, Siegerland
This puzzle is now available at Shapeways for \$58:
http://www.shapeways.com/model/151217/f_skewb.html?gid=ug36080

Frank Tiex wrote:
If you intend to sell it soon, it might be possible to show it at the DCD

Unfortunately I'll not visit DCD this year!

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 Post subject: Re: Shim's F-SkewbPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 1:54 am

Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2007 3:50 pm
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark

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I believe it would work best with black plastic.

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 Post subject: Re: Shim's F-SkewbPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 4:36 am

Joined: Thu Sep 17, 2009 6:07 am
Location: Germany, Bavaria
Timur wrote:
This puzzle is now available at Shapeways for \$58:
http://www.shapeways.com/model/151217/f_skewb.html?gid=ug36080
...
Can you make it available in black as well? (Currently WSF only, I have no experience with dyeing and do not want to get into it.) Also: How or where can I get machine cut stickers for it or do I need to cut them myself?
(I can cut stickers but have problems making nicely rounded corners! )

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 Post subject: Re: Shim's F-SkewbPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 5:11 am

Joined: Tue Jun 10, 2008 12:10 am
Location: Norway
Very good job, this puzzle looks sleek!

Alex

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 Post subject: Re: Shim's F-SkewbPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 5:31 am

Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2010 7:00 am
Location: Germany, Siegerland
konsassen wrote:
Can you make it available in black as well? (Currently WSF only, I have no experience with dyeing and do not want to get into it.) Also: How or where can I get machine cut stickers for it or do I need to cut them myself?

BSF added. I have an extra stickers set and could send it to you.
I can also build a new finished puzzle

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 Post subject: Re: Shim's F-SkewbPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 10:20 am

Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 12:09 pm
Location: Missouri
Andreas Nortmann wrote:
At least, Timur did the hard job of classifying it for me.
I'm quite perplexed too.
Timur wrote:
Mathematically it can also be considered as a TomZ's Dino Skewb that is bandaged over half of all face diagonals.
But this puzzle isn't bandaged... I don't think. It appears to be an order=2 puzzle and TomZ's Dino Skewb is order=3. Order being the number of cut planes per axis of rotation in my book. So that would be like calling a 3x3x3 a bandaged 4x4x4.

Let's come at this from another angle... the normal order=2 corner turning cube is the Master Skewb. It has both cut planes the same distance from the origin. That doesn't appear to be the case here. I think what this is... is a Master Skewb with these black pieces hidden.

Attachment:

Skewb2B.png [ 6.57 KiB | Viewed 3424 times ]

elijah wrote:
This is extremely similar to the idea of a skewboid that was discussed in an earlier topic... in fact, I'd say this is a form of skewboid in fact.
I too was trying to think of this as a 3x3x2 of sorts... but I don't think that fits. In the cubeoids you remove the number of cut planes from some of the axes but not all. This puzzle still has two cut planes along all 4 axes... and I think all the pieces of the Master Skewb are there... its just that some are now hidden inside the volume of the puzzle.

I don't think I realized this before but the Master Skewb with its octagonal symmetry in some sense is 2 puzzles with tetrahedral symmetry in one. By that I mean 4 corners on the Master Skewb belong to one tetrahedral puzzle and they are never mixed with the other 4 that belong to the other tetrahedral puzzle. I think the same applies to the off center face squares of the Master Skewb. 2 on each face belong to different tetrahedral puzzles. In a normal Master Skewb the two "base" tetrahedral puzzles are the same size. In this puzzle they are different sizes and that is I think what allows this to work.

Very interesting and I hope I understand this puzzle correctly. If I do... it just gave me a GREAT idea. Looks like I'll be doing some playing with POV-Ray tonight.

Carl

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Last edited by wwwmwww on Tue Sep 28, 2010 1:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Shim's F-SkewbPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 1:10 pm

Joined: Wed May 13, 2009 4:58 pm
Location: Vancouver, Washington
elijah wrote:
This is extremely similar to the idea of a skewboid that was discussed in an earlier topic... in fact, I'd say this is a form of skewboid in fact.
I was reminded of the skewboid thread too but I'm still don't think a cuboid can exist in skewb form. Yes this is a very interesting and cool puzzle, but think about what makes a cuboid a cuboid. A cuboid has a different number of cuts on each axis. This puzzle has the same cuts on every axis.

wwwmwww wrote:
Timur wrote:
Mathematically it can also be considered as a TomZ's Dino Skewb that is bandaged over half of all face diagonals.
But this puzzle isn't bandaged... I don't think.
I think it is. Let's look at the cuts on 1 axis of TomZ's Dino Skewb.
Attachment:

cuts.png [ 4.25 KiB | Viewed 3384 times ]
I believe that this puzzle just removes 1 of the dino cuts. Here's my cheap attempt to show what that would do to Tomz's puzzle. Compare this with Timur's 2nd picture. I think it makes it pretty clear that this is what that is. The skewb cut would also have to be shifted slightly so that the middle pieces are more square.
Attachment:

bandaged.png [ 209.54 KiB | Viewed 3384 times ]

wwwmwww wrote:
I don't think I realized this before but the Master Skewb with its octagonal symmetry in some sense is 2 puzzles with tetrahedral symmetry in one. By that I mean 4 corners on the Master Skewb belong to one tetrahedral puzzle and they are never mixed with the other 4 that belong to the other tetrahedral puzzle. I think the same applies to the offer center face squares of the of the Master Skewb. 2 on each face belong to different tetrahedral puzzles. In a normal Master Skewb the two "base" tetrahedral puzzles are the same size. In this puzzle they are different sizes and that is I think what allows this to work.
That is indeed an interesting way to look a the puzzle. And I beginning to think that it might be the right one.

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 Post subject: Re: Shim's F-SkewbPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 1:43 pm

Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 12:09 pm
Location: Missouri
GuiltyBystander wrote:
Compare this with Timur's 2nd picture. I think it makes it pretty clear that this is what that is.
I certainly don't doubt this puzzle can be made that way... but that's NOT what it IS in my book. Take a 4x4x4 and bandage all faces as I have the green face here:

Attachment:

B3x3x3.png [ 227.13 KiB | Viewed 3372 times ]

Does that make a 3x3x3 a bandaged puzzle?

Carl

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 Post subject: Re: Shim's F-SkewbPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 2:30 pm

Joined: Tue Jul 08, 2008 3:39 pm
Location: Cornwall, United Kingdom
Isn't it closer to a tetrahedral equivalent of a Cross Cube?

Looks like a cube-shaped version of this: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=14865

but with independently turning circles and hidden tips.

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 Post subject: Re: Shim's F-SkewbPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 4:49 pm

Joined: Sat Aug 22, 2009 3:27 pm
Location: California
WOOOOOOOOOOOOO
that is awesomeness
i'd love to play with one of those

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 Post subject: Re: Shim's F-SkewbPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 5:29 pm

Joined: Wed May 13, 2009 4:58 pm
Location: Vancouver, Washington
wwwmwww wrote:
GuiltyBystander wrote:
Compare this with Timur's 2nd picture. I think it makes it pretty clear that this is what that is.
I certainly don't doubt this puzzle can be made that way... but that's NOT what it IS in my book. Take a 4x4x4 and bandage all faces as I have the green face here:

Does that make a 3x3x3 a bandaged puzzle?

Carl
I would not call a 3x3x3 a bandaged puzzle, but I do see what you're trying to say.

I may be contradicting myself, but I do consider cuboids bandaged puzzles. It's what makes it clear in my mind that there is only 1 true 3x3x6 or 3x3x7 for example:
Attachment:

bandage_cuboid.png [ 2.07 KiB | Viewed 3310 times ]

I also consider SmaZ's Madness 3x3 bandaged even though it looks like it has 2 cuts per axis. In fact, if you look at just the cuts relative to the axis, these two puzzle are very very similar.

I wish I could define my thoughts/perception of puzzles as well as you do but I can't at the moment.

*several minutes after writing & thinking*
I'm now thinking back to Bram's definitions for doctrine, bandaged, and jumbling and must conclude that this is a tetrahedral doctrinal puzzle. I'm still baffled how the cuts can be staggered and not cause bandaging while doing the same on a cube (see Madness 3x3) would cause bandaging. It probably has something to do with the axis being orthogonal and allowing 180 degree turns. Or maybe it's the relationship between tetrahedra and octahedra. Any insight here would be appreciated.

I'm curious what pieces your POV-Ray experiment will find inside.

@Timur, I'm sorry for this slight derailment of your thread. I hope you take it as a compliment to your puzzle's complexity.

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 Post subject: Re: Shim's F-SkewbPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 11:40 am

Joined: Fri Mar 06, 2009 9:23 pm
Sorry for the slight bump, but I wanted to weigh in on this really cool puzzle!

To me, I would consider this an offset skewb with four dino cuts added. weather or not the offset skewb is really just a bandaged master skewb is unknown to me, although I think its not. from a design standpoint, the offset skewb can be made from the same sketch as the skewb, with the line that determines the cut plane being in a slightly offset location.

It has been mentioned a couple of times that people are looking at this puzzle as two puzzle in one, both with tetrahedral symmetry, with the two tetrahedrons having different orientations. Would it be beneficial to view this puzzle as some variation of Tomz's tetrahedral twins? I know that, mechanically speaking, the dino skewb is the same puzzle as the tetrahedral twins, but it was just a though I had.

Additionally, there has been talk of depth of the cut planes. I think that is puzzle has done something that has never been done before. Let me explain: The F-skewb has 4 turning axis, and on each axis there are two different cutting planes, and, on every axis, neither of the cut planes are equidistant from the origin of the puzzle. The bump cube immediately comes to mind, but that is just a shape mod of a 3x3, and doesn't fit what i just described. Attached to this you will find a picture that shows the turning axis (red) a line that travels through the imaginary origin of the puzzle and is perpendicular to the turning axis (black) and two would be cutting planes that are different distances from the origin (blue). The posts in this thread are trying to equate this puzzle to an nxmxk puzzle, and because of this unique phenomenon, I just don't Think its possible to have a perfect comparison of this kind.

Just my thoughts!

 Attachments: turning axis.png [ 2.52 KiB | Viewed 3226 times ] File comment: this is the offset skewb offset skewb.PNG [ 18.64 KiB | Viewed 3226 times ]

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 Post subject: Re: Shim's F-SkewbPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 1:26 pm

Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 12:09 pm
Location: Missouri
gingervergo wrote:
Sorry for the slight bump,
A bump is now 18 hours!? Ouch. Either way this post is very welcome... at least to me... not that this is my thread.
gingervergo wrote:
To me, I would consider this an offset skewb with four dino cuts added.
Very very close to my view as well.
gingervergo wrote:
weather or not the offset skewb is really just a bandaged master skewb is unknown to me
I would say no.
gingervergo wrote:
It has been mentioned a couple of times that people are looking at this puzzle as two puzzle in one, both with tetrahedral symmetry, with the two tetrahedrons having different orientations. Would it be beneficial to view this puzzle as some variation of Tomz's tetrahedral twins? I know that, mechanically speaking, the dino skewb is the same puzzle as the tetrahedral twins, but it was just a though I had.
Exactly the thought I had yesterday but I was stuck at work till about 10:30 last night and only got an hour or so of POV-Ray in before going to bed. Still I got enough done that I can say the answer is YES!!!! I hope to post some pictures tonight. And they should be general enough that I can start a new thread.
gingervergo wrote:
Just my thoughts!
We are on the same page...

Carl

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 Post subject: Re: Shim's F-SkewbPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 2:00 pm

Joined: Fri Mar 06, 2009 9:23 pm
wwwmwww wrote:
gingervergo wrote:
weather or not the offset skewb is really just a bandaged master skewb is unknown to me
I would say no.
Carl

I just drew up a master skewb in solidworks and then played around with the bandaging a bit, The offset skewb is indeed a bandaged master skewb. I don't know how this effects the classification of the puzzle (that is the ultimate goal of this discussion right ) but at least its another thing learned!

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 Post subject: Re: Shim's F-SkewbPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 5:58 pm

Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 12:09 pm
Location: Missouri
gingervergo wrote:
I just drew up a master skewb in solidworks and then played around with the bandaging a bit, The offset skewb is indeed a bandaged master skewb.
Arg!!! Here we go again. Yes, you can bandage a Master Skewb into a offset skewb but that isn't what it is.... no more then a 3x3x3 is a bandaged 4x4x4. The Offset Skewb is a doctrine puzzle all by itself. And yes... it too can be thought of as a union of 2 seperate puzzles with tetrahedral symmetry. Want to guess which 2? I'll show you in the post I start later tonight...

Think of it this way... the Master Skewb is an order=2 puzzle. The Offset Skewb is an order=1 puzzle. One cut plane per axis of rotation. Any "bandaged" puzzle made from a Master Skewb must remain Order=2. If you bandage it to the point its become an Order=1 puzzle you've done more to it then "just" bandage it.

Carl

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 Post subject: Re: Shim's F-SkewbPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 9:59 pm

Joined: Sun Jun 13, 2010 1:00 am
In my opinion it is just a normal skewb plus 4 dino cuts.

Think of a 3x3x3. If the centers are increased or decreased in size, it is still the same puzzle. This is the same for skewbs except half of the corners are not the centers of rotation (mechanicaly). 3 corners can be increased making the other 3 decrease in size without changing the puzzle, just like corners on a 3x3x3 get smaller as the center is increased.

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 Post subject: Re: Shim's F-SkewbPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 2:56 am

Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 12:09 pm
Location: Missouri
PuzzleMaster6262 wrote:
In my opinion it is just a normal skewb plus 4 dino cuts.

It's equivalent solving wise... yes but this puzzle doesn't have any deep cuts like a normal Skewb does. And why just 4 dino cuts? The dino cube has 8. I wanted to dig deeper and I did that here:

http://twistypuzzles.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&p=230926

Notice all the bandaging arguments above and your normal Skewb cut with Dino cuts idea produce pieces equivalent to those in the F-Skewb yet they aren't the same shape. Why? My method/argument naturally produces the same shape pieces as those seen in the F-Skewb shown here. I have no bandaging and no use of "partial" puzzles. So I think I get closer to answering the why questions. I'm NOT saying I'm right and everyone else is wrong and in fact all these ideas could be used to make a puzzle identical to the F-Skewb seen here with some shape moding and I don't actually know the method used to make this particular puzzle. The images I post in the other thread have no mech... its simply cut planes. I don't classify puzzles based on their shape or their mech... just the geometry of their cut planes.

Carl

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