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 Post subject: The Mixup Master Skewb...
PostPosted: Sat Sep 11, 2010 9:29 pm 
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Imagine a puzzle that looks like this:

Image

The corners and face centers are normal Skewb pieces BUT the 4 slice layers now allow rotation by just 30 degrees. There are 12 pieces in each slice layer and they appear to be about the same size so I think this could work.

This idea popped into my head after trying to think of a Mixup 3x3x3x3 and then I realized I could add more slice layers and remain in the 3D world where its much easier to picture things. If this idea has been mentioned before please let me know.

If this works, I can't see why it wouldn't, you would just start with a Skewb and add tracks around the equators to hold the slidey pieces.

Thanks,
Carl

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 Post subject: Re: The Mixup Master Skewb...
PostPosted: Sat Sep 11, 2010 9:58 pm 
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yay! so this is the 3x3x4 or just the 4 layer form of the mixup...
I'm 100% positive it will work, but I don't know who will make it...
now, following this logic, would the mix-up pentultimate be the 5 layer version? And then a mix-up deepcut FTI would be possible for 6 layers?

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 Post subject: Re: The Mixup Master Skewb...
PostPosted: Sat Sep 11, 2010 10:00 pm 
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hmm, that's really interesting. I'd reckon it could be made with relative simplicity from a skewb.

On another note, these conversations happen so fast! When I woke up this morning, the Split Hex thread had (literally) been posted around 30 seconds before. Now, there's already a page of long informative posts AND a knockoff thread... 13 hours later! :lol:

Edit: So, this works like a regular master skewb too, right?

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 Post subject: Re: The Mixup Master Skewb...
PostPosted: Sat Sep 11, 2010 10:25 pm 
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elijah wrote:
yay! so this is the 3x3x4

No... the Mixup 3x3x4 would look like a non-proportional 3x3x4. You'd just have two slice layers along the same axis of rotation.... just like a 3x3x4.

elijah wrote:
I'm 100% positive it will work, but I don't know who will make it...

If I ever get any free time I'll try to design it and maybe offer it in my Shapeways shop. I think I already have a working design in my head and its simplier then my Mixup Circle Cube. If someone beats me to the punch it will be my loss but your gain and I won't feel bad. If something like that would bother me I'd just keep the ideas to myself. Its just so much more fun to share them.

elijah wrote:
now, following this logic, would the mix-up pentultimate be the 5 layer version? And then a mix-up deepcut FTI would be possible for 6 layers?

Those are options for non-orthogonal versions that remain in 3D but there are many other versions that could be made. One step at a time...

Carl

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 Post subject: Re: The Mixup Master Skewb...
PostPosted: Sat Sep 11, 2010 10:32 pm 
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Kapusta wrote:
Edit: So, this works like a regular master skewb too, right?

Yes... it would.

It may not look quite as nice as a Master Skewb as I suspect some edges might have to be partially rounded and it may not turn as well as the best Master Skewbs out there but those are both prices I'd be willing to pay for the added functionality.

Carl

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 Post subject: Re: The Mixup Master Skewb...
PostPosted: Sat Sep 11, 2010 10:47 pm 
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Oh, okay, well, I guess I was confused because you referred to the split hex as the mix-up 3x3x2...
This is interesting, I like it, and it opens up a whole new variety of puzzles that are also virtually infinite in number...

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 Post subject: Re: The Mixup Master Skewb...
PostPosted: Sat Sep 11, 2010 11:33 pm 
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elijah wrote:
Oh, okay, well, I guess I was confused because you referred to the split hex as the mix-up 3x3x2...


The Hex Cube IS a shape mod of the Mixup 2x3x3. The Split Hex is much closer to a Mixup 2x4x4. More correctly the Mixup 2x4x4 is a bandaged Split Hex.

And now that I think about it I'm not sure that Mixup 2x4x4 is the ONLY Mixup 2x4x4.

Look at the Split Hex. Imagine the triangular corners shrunk down to equilateral triangle. Keep the top and bottom face a 2x2 but the faces that share an edge with the triangles now become 1x2 (still squares the same size as those that make up the 4x4 area on the top and bottom). The track the slidy pieces slide in now would be more of an elipse then a circle but you'd have a shape mod of a Mixup 2x4x4 that allowed 45 degree turns and be a different puzzle then Oskar's Mixup 2x4x4. Both could function as normal 2x4x4s but the Mixup turns would be different.

And thinking even more I think a way to remove that ambiguity is to think of the Split Hex as a bandaged puzzle itself. It is a bandaged form of the Mixup 4x4x4 with each corner bandaged to one neighboring edge piece. If present you'd see these two edge pieces between the two triangular corners that touch on the Split Hex. All the other pieces of the Mixup 4x4x4 are present.

So Oscar's Mixup 2x4x4 is an even more bandaged Mixup 4x4x4. The other Mixup 2x4x4 is an unbandaged puzzle.

Carl

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 Post subject: Re: The Mixup Master Skewb...
PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 12:50 am 
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hmm, interesting... so, this can continually be unbandaged, but would just result in mix-up versions of higher order cubes...
So, there's a mix-up version of virtually every puzzle isn't there?
all mix up cuboids with all dimensions of 2 or greater can exist...
What happens if we mix these mix-up ideas with jumbling puzzles such as the helicopter cube?

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 Post subject: Re: The Mixup Master Skewb...
PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 4:14 am 
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This does sound like an interesting idea... I'd like to see it made at some point.

That reminded me of an idea I had a while back - The Gear Skewb. Basically it would look like a Master Skewb, but the middle layers would be gearified (If that's a word :D )

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 Post subject: Re: The Mixup Master Skewb...
PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 4:17 am 
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SEBUVER wrote:
This does sound like an interesting idea... I'd like to see it made at some point.

That reminded me of an idea I had a while back - The Gear Skewb. Basically it would look like a Master Skewb, but the middle layers would be gearified (If that's a word :D )


Ask Oskar and you'll see that tomorrow :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: The Mixup Master Skewb...
PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 12:27 am 
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I've been working on this puzzle...

My rough sketch... (yes I sketch in POV-Ray too. I can't draw worth a dime.)
Image

Now coming up with a cross-section for the slidey pieces (assuming they can't rotate on their own... an assumption I later break).
Image

I did this the hard way. I later realized I simply needed a shape that was invariant under a rotation of 9.7356 degrees. So I was stuck with a cone.
Image

Image

But I made the assumption I couldn't rotate the Slidey pieces in place... being a cone how do I prevent this? And with a continuum of allowed orientations of each Slidey piece the puzzle would have an infinite number of states.

How do I over come this?

Simple... I allow the pieces to rotate BUT only up to 22.5 degrees in either direction. With this slop each piece now has only 4 allowed orientations and will behave just like a Master Skewb (you can't rotate an individual edge into position if its in the wrong orientation). PLUS you now have all the Mixup moves.
Image

All the Slidey pieces are interchangeable and have the exact same cross-section.
Image

The blue pieces are your basic Skewb parts that hold all the Slidey pieces in place. I'm still modeling the mech for this puzzle but that part is very straight forward. Getting a workable cross-section for the Slidey pieces that limited their rotation in just the right way was the biggest puzzle here.

In light of this thread. This falls in option (2).

Concept publications (here's my puzzle idea, you can do with it whatever you want). As long as I haven't published an working prototype yet... if its ok for me to add that caveat.

I too will continue to work on this. In light of Oskar's post here. I'm looking for a sponsor. If you can help me turn this into a 3D model I can have printed at Shapeways I'll pay for the prototype and give it to you. If you are interested in helping but would like other terms please ask. I'll be as flexable as I can be. I can provide a full POV-Ray model but once its converted into something Shapeways will take I may need help hollowing the parts and adding fillets.

Thanks and Enjoy,
Carl

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 Post subject: Re: The Mixup Master Skewb...
PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 4:39 am 
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OK, only nominally on topic, but it seems a good place to put this...

OpenSCAD - The Programmers Solid 3D CAD Modeller

As my skills with povray are only rudimentary, I've been finding this too much of an uphill battle to bother with at the moment. However, the syntax is VERY similar, and it allows exporting projects to .stl.

Just putting it out there...

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 Post subject: Re: The Mixup Master Skewb...
PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 4:31 pm 
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RubixFreakGreg wrote:
SEBUVER wrote:
This does sound like an interesting idea... I'd like to see it made at some point.

That reminded me of an idea I had a while back - The Gear Skewb. Basically it would look like a Master Skewb, but the middle layers would be gearified (If that's a word :D )


Ask Oskar and you'll see that tomorrow :lol:



Didn't take long at all: http://www.shapeways.com/model/156420/gear_octahedron.html 8-)
That's just a Master Skewb that has been "gearified" in an octahedral form. Mechanically though it's identical to your idea, SEBUVER.

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 Post subject: Re: The Mixup Master Skewb...
PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 5:06 pm 
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Allagem wrote:
Didn't take long at all: http://www.shapeways.com/model/156420/gear_octahedron.html 8-)
That's just a Master Skewb that has been "gearified" in an octahedral form. Mechanically though it's identical to your idea, SEBUVER.


WOW!!! Must make it a point to check out Oskar's shop weekly. This isn't the only surprise I just found there. Boy I wish I had money...

Back on the topic of the Mixup Master Skewb I've descovered a problem with the above design. But I think I may have an idea on how to fix it. And it was something Oskar said to me that allowed me to see it.

I should be posting some more pictures soon.

Carl

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 Post subject: Re: The Mixup Master Skewb...
PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 10:51 pm 
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Ok... Oskar email me and pointed out an issue with this puzzle. I'd quote that email but I think that is against the rules. (Oskar if you don't object let me know and I may add that quote later) But in short he stated the biggest issue to over come with this puzzle is that the slice layers don't cross at 90 degrees which forced the pieces out of square.

I at first didn't see that as a problem and pointed him to this puzzle:
http://twistypuzzles.com/cgi-bin/puzzle.cgi?pkey=1251

It's pieces aren't square and it works and has 20 pieces in a moving layer... the Mixup Master Skewb only has 12 so I was sure it could work.

Oscar then correctly pointed out that the crossings in that puzzle ARE at 90 degrees. So I was sure I was missing something else. And I was... and here is an animation that shows it quite clearly.

Image

Here I cut out all the space that will be occupied by a yellow slice piece during a rotation of that slice layer... and as I feared... there are parts of green pieces in the way. To get them out of the way I need to make the slice pieces even smaller and this means two neighboring slice layer pieces won't even be contacting each other normally. So this puzzle will have ALOT of slop in it. I MUST find a way to make the slice layer pieces MORE square.

And Oskar knew just how to point me in the correct direction... He asked me if it was possible to design a 3D puzzle with 4 slice layers that all crossed each other at 90 degrees.

My guy reaction was that is impossible. We are talking about 3-space and there are only 3 mutually orthogonal planes available to play with. Those are the ones used in his Mixup Cube. But with a bit of thinking I now see how it can be done. So I might as well take a shot at breaking the universe too.

First I need to find 4 identical paths that all cross each other at only 90 degrees... and here is one such set:

Image

And a closeup that shows you they do in fact cross at 90 degrees.

Image

I still have yet to design the slice pieces but they should now be much more square. But there is now a new problem. The slice layers will all rotate fine but the Skewb rotations are going to be a bit "bumpy". I still think it can be fudged and made to work but maybe a good first step is to just make this puzzle first. A Slice-turn only Mixup Master Skewb... aka the SMMS.

Thoughts? And I hope to have more pictures up here soon.

Carl

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Last edited by wwwmwww on Mon Sep 20, 2010 10:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The Mixup Master Skewb...
PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 11:09 pm 
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so... you used curved paths to allow 4 perpendicular loops to exist in 3 space?
If this is the case, I don't see why paths couldn't already be fine, since the shape they make is exactly the symmetry of teh skewb anyway... :roll:
And, if those lines are in fact not curved(which it appears they are) then, I am really confused and don't see how that shape exists...

Edit: Also, the original cone idea would still make a valid puzzle, as long you had the right type of stickers, I suppose it would be permutation-free though... :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: The Mixup Master Skewb...
PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2010 12:26 am 
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Ahh, but wait Carl, this new problem you have just stated is a direct consequence of distorting the circles to try to limit the movement as you introduced a few posts earlier. IF you revert back to the circular pieces, all pieces can be flush and still every ring will be clear from obstruction by the pieces in other rings.

Like I said in my pm to you, this puzzle:
wwwmwww wrote:
Image

is the most natural way of creating the Mixup Master Skewb as you described in the first post. I DO understand the desire to prevent a single edge piece from spinning, but any steps you take to prevent that MAY cause other strange quirks to happen.

Point is, reverting back to the circles eliminates the above problem. As for your 4 rings that cross eachother at right angles via distortion of the rings. Yah, good luck with that :lol: Seriously though, I have feeling that trying to introduce distorted rings will wreak havoc on the geometries of any puzzle that results. However, this should theoretically allow the "mixup" pieces to be square (-ish) and should eliminate the original problem of them rotating in place by an irrational number of degrees by going through mixup moves.

Going back to the old idea with the circle pieces: you COULD force an orientation among the mixup pieces via gears, similar to how Oskar combined the Mixup Cube with the Gear Cube/Caution Cube. So it would be like skipping the octahedral equivalent of the Mixup Cube and going straight to the octahedral equivalent of the Geared Mixup.

Just some ideas :)

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 Post subject: Re: The Mixup Master Skewb...
PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2010 12:31 am 
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wwwmwww wrote:
I still have yet to design the slice pieces but they should now be much more square. But there is now a new problem. The slice layers will all rotate fine but the Skewb rotations are going to be a pit "bumpy". I still think it can be fudged and made to work but maybe a good first step is to just make this puzzle first. A Slice-turn only Mixup Master Skewb... aka the SMMS.

Thoughts? And I hope to have more pictures up here soon.
Interesting work around for the perpendicular paths.

As for the normal moves, that made me think of a few other puzzles. First was the Impossiball; see the 3rd photo for midrotation. Second was DaYan's Magic Ball. Perhaps you can somehow adapt one of their mechs to this funny shape.

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 Post subject: Re: The Mixup Master Skewb...
PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2010 9:58 pm 
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elijah wrote:
so... you used curved paths to allow 4 perpendicular loops to exist in 3 space?
Yes. The paths only need to be perpendicular where they cross.

elijah wrote:
If this is the case, I don't see why paths couldn't already be fine, since the shape they make is exactly the symmetry of teh skewb anyway... :roll:
And, if those lines are in fact not curved(which it appears they are) then, I am really confused and don't see how that shape exists...
They are curved and there are problems if the paths don't cross at 90 degrees.

elijah wrote:
Edit: Also, the original cone idea would still make a valid puzzle, as long you had the right type of stickers, I suppose it would be permutation-free though... :roll:
Actually the cone idea above has the exact same problem....

Image

To fix this the cones would have to be smaller and there were be space between them and all that slop would make things very hard to turn. Each piece would be loose and the slice layers wouldn't move as a whole. But I'm still working on version 2.0. I don't give up easilly...

Carl

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Last edited by wwwmwww on Mon Sep 20, 2010 10:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The Mixup Master Skewb...
PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2010 10:15 pm 
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Ah, you're right. And I also see why I got the incorrect analysis. I was constructing my cones based on what they needed to be to not get caught in the other slices. So the cones I'm looking at do work. But they DO have little gaps between them. I just didn't notice them at first. These gaps are TINY!!!! In fact it leads me to believe they may work anyway.

Oh well, keep us updated on your work here Carl!!

Peace,
Matt Galla


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 Post subject: Re: The Mixup Master Skewb...
PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2010 10:19 pm 
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Allagem wrote:
Ahh, but wait Carl, this new problem you have just stated is a direct consequence of distorting the circles to try to limit the movement as you introduced a few posts earlier. IF you revert back to the circular pieces, all pieces can be flush and still every ring will be clear from obstruction by the pieces in other rings.
No... its not. See the animation I just posted. The problem is there with cones as well. Its a direct consequence of having the pieces flush and NOT crossing at 90 degrees.

Allagem wrote:
Like I said in my pm to you, this puzzle: <SNIP> is the most natural way of creating the Mixup Master Skewb as you described in the first post. I DO understand the desire to prevent a single edge piece from spinning, but any steps you take to prevent that MAY cause other strange quirks to happen.
I welcome strange quirks. Dealing with them is how I learn. And when I started this I was expecting a puzzle that was easiler to design then my Mixup Circle Cube. Now that I'm hip deep in the design I have to say the geometry of this puzzle is much more interesting... at least from a geometry stand point. My POV-Ray code has so many irrational angles in it its not even funny yet it seems to all fit. If this thing can be made to work and I still believe it can it may qualify as the must "fudged" puzzle to date.

Allagem wrote:
Point is, reverting back to the circles eliminates the above problem. As for your 4 rings that cross eachother at right angles via distortion of the rings. Yah, good luck with that :lol:
The path the pieces follow doesn't have to be a strait line. The rings themselves are just big curves afterall. Stay tuned for some pics and you'll see what I mean.

Allagem wrote:
Seriously though, I have feeling that trying to introduce distorted rings will wreak havoc on the geometries of any puzzle that results. However, this should theoretically allow the "mixup" pieces to be square (-ish) and should eliminate the original problem of them rotating in place by an irrational number of degrees by going through mixup moves.
It solves many problems and the havoc it wreaks on the geometry is beautiful... it really is. I'm a big math geek and I'm having a blast desining this puzzle.

Allagem wrote:
Going back to the old idea with the circle pieces: you COULD force an orientation among the mixup pieces via gears, similar to how Oskar combined the Mixup Cube with the Gear Cube/Caution Cube. So it would be like skipping the octahedral equivalent of the Mixup Cube and going straight to the octahedral equivalent of the Geared Mixup.
The Gear Mixup Master Skewb before the Mixup Master Skewb... now that's a thought. Oscar is the resident expert on Gear puzzles so I'll let him take a shot at that one. I agree it might be doable but I wouldn't have a clue as to where to start.

Carl

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 Post subject: Re: The Mixup Master Skewb...
PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2010 10:34 pm 
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GuiltyBystander wrote:
As for the normal moves, that made me think of a few other puzzles. First was the Impossiball; see the 3rd photo for midrotation. Second was DaYan's Magic Ball. Perhaps you can somehow adapt one of their mechs to this funny shape.
My thoughts exactly. The deviation of this wiggly slice layer from a perfect circle is at most 2.6925 degrees so I think springs on the pieces attached to the core should certainly allow movement similiar to the Impossiball. Any mech pics of the Impossiball floating around? Mine is in storage in a different state at the moment but as I recall I'm pretty sure it has some springs in it. Still before I go that rought I still think I should make the SMMS first and verify all the slice layers work as expected on as stable a core as possible before I add in the Skewb rotations. Actually the slice layer pieces in both puzzles could be the same so I may do both in parallel.

Carl

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 Post subject: Re: The Mixup Master Skewb...
PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 12:02 am 
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Ok... here are some new pics...

Image

The green band is the area needed to rotate the slice layer. Notice, now there are no other pieces touching this green band to get in the way of the slice layer moving.

In cube form...
Image

Enjoy,
Carl

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Last edited by wwwmwww on Tue Sep 21, 2010 12:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The Mixup Master Skewb...
PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 12:04 am 
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That's a very slight "wiggle" for the pieces. I like it!

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 Post subject: Re: The Mixup Master Skewb...
PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 1:16 am 
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wwwmwww wrote:
The deviation of this wiggly slice layer from a perfect circle is at most 2.6925 degrees so I think springs on the pieces attached to the core should certainly allow movement similiar to the Impossiball. Any mech pics of the Impossiball floating around?
Hmm. Very tiny indeed. I would have expected more. What's the angle between 2 paths before you fudge them to be 90 degrees?

I did a quick search and found and image of the impossiball mech here
http://www.twistypuzzles.com/cgi-bin/pu ... i?pkey=630
I think that photo was originally from here
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=254&p=77288

Seems like an interesting mech. I'm not sure what the advantage of the flexible disc is over a screw spring system that allows large displacements.

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 Post subject: Re: The Mixup Master Skewb...
PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 9:39 am 
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GuiltyBystander wrote:
Very tiny indeed. I would have expected more. What's the angle between 2 paths before you fudge them to be 90 degrees?
Thanks for the links...

And the angle between the pure circular paths is 70.528779365509308630754000660038... degrees. The fudges paths are each made up of 6 conical sections, all with the same delta as seen in this picture.

Image

Carl

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 Post subject: Re: The Mixup Master Skewb...
PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 8:00 pm 
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so, is this last design potentially functional? It looks very nice, and doesn't seem like there'd be too many, if any glitches...

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 Post subject: Re: The Mixup Master Skewb...
PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2010 10:48 pm 
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elijah wrote:
so, is this last design potentially functional? It looks very nice, and doesn't seem like there'd be too many, if any glitches...
"potentially functional?" ... I'd say certainly. If the question was "functional?" then I'd say potentially.

This wiggling of the pieces should occure naturally during a rotation due to the shape of the pieces neighboring the path. I'll see if I can make an animation that shows that. But this whole idea is untested as far as I know. That is why I'll likely make a Slice-turn only version first. If that works and I make a version that allows the Skewb turns I'll need to add springs to allow the puzzle to open just a bit mid Skewb rotation and even if that works I could see it creating enough space that the Slidey pieces could be rotated freely in place. I don't want to allow that but if that is the only problem this puzzle has I'd probably still consider it a success. Maybe the use of magnets in the corners attached to the core and no magnets in the other corners could be used to always keep the slidey pieces close to a certain half of the puzzle when it was "opened" for a Skewb rotation. Note, with that configuration the 3 corners that neighbor the slice layer on the axis of rotation (of the Skewb turn) are all on the same side of the slice. They always are even after the puzzle is scrambled. How is that for luck? So I should be able to use that somehow... Still thinking... It will probably be this weekend before I have a chance to get back to POV-Ray.

For a guy that has never made a puzzle you'd think I could find easier problems to tackle but its this new ground that I find the most fun to play in.

Carl

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 Post subject: Re: The Mixup Master Skewb...
PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2010 12:02 am 
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from the looks of it, I can't see why it wouldn't allow normal skewb and master skewb turns already...

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 Post subject: Re: The Mixup Master Skewb...
PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 11:17 am 
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Ok... did some more work this past weekend. I also corrected a few problems I spotted. The slidey pieces are actually the intersection of 12 cones. Above I only used 4 and I fudged their radii to make it look like they worked. Here is what I have so far. I'll start on the mech that holds it together next weekend.

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Enjoy,
Carl

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 Post subject: Re: The Mixup Master Skewb...
PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 11:21 am 
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elijah wrote:
from the looks of it, I can't see why it wouldn't allow normal skewb and master skewb turns already...
A picture is worth a 1000 words.... here is a gif that should answer that question.

Image

Carl

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 Post subject: Re: The Mixup Master Skewb...
PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 12:24 am 
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wwwmwww wrote:
Ok... did some more work this past weekend. I also corrected a few problems I spotted. The slidey pieces are actually the intersection of 12 cones. Above I only used 4 and I fudged their radii to make it look like they worked.
Can you show us where the 12 cones come from? I'm curious that it is that defines these pieces. I'm guessing it's based on the 6 conical sections that define the fudged path. To the naked eye it looks like they're made from 8 cones. I wonder where the other 4 are hiding.

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 Post subject: Re: The Mixup Master Skewb...
PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 11:15 pm 
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GuiltyBystander wrote:
wwwmwww wrote:
Ok... did some more work this past weekend. I also corrected a few problems I spotted. The slidey pieces are actually the intersection of 12 cones. Above I only used 4 and I fudged their radii to make it look like they worked.
Can you show us where the 12 cones come from? I'm curious that it is that defines these pieces. I'm guessing it's based on the 6 conical sections that define the fudged path. To the naked eye it looks like they're made from 8 cones. I wonder where the other 4 are hiding.

Sorry for the late reply... just realized I never answered this question...
Attachment:
MMSkewb22.png
MMSkewb22.png [ 24.18 KiB | Viewed 7910 times ]

Here is what a slidey piece looks like. Each side has 3 conical cuts on it. The red and green are define by how the slidey pieces slide past other slidey pieces. The blue conical cut is defined by how they slide past the blue pieces, the Skewb face and corner pieces. That is how I got 12. If you'd like the POV-Ray Code for the above animation let me know.

Carl

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 Post subject: Re: The Mixup Master Skewb...
PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 11:22 pm 
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I am pretty surprised we haven't seen this puzzle on oskars shapeways shop yet. I really like the idea of this puzzle.


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 Post subject: Re: The Mixup Master Skewb...
PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 3:22 am 
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wwwmwww wrote:
Sorry for the late reply... just realized I never answered this question...
lol, you could have not answered and gotten away with it. I had completely forgotten about it :P Thanks for the answer though.

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 Post subject: Re: The Mixup Master Skewb...
PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2011 8:43 pm 
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I've been trying to teach an old dog a new trick. In this case the old dog is me. And this trick is how to make a puzzle in something other then POV-Ray so I have the hopes of getting it 3D printed someday. Here is how far I got today...

Image

Not bad. But it turns out the way I typically make puzzles is nothing much like the way SolidWorks has typically been used to make puzzles before. So I'm trying to blend some of my POV-Ray tricks into SolidWorks and I'm making some headway. Now that I know how several of you have been using SolidWorks it almost feels like cheating. With POV-Ray I build each part of the puzzle, sometimes one surface at a time, and then I start putting the pieces together. With SolidWorks you can define a few simple cuts and let the software do all the work. You don't even need to know what the individual pieces need to look like before you start. Sounds like cheating to me. ;)

And actually I've cheated above. That image is actually the assembly of two parts. One sphere with all the corners attached and another sphere with all the face centers attached. Haven't figured out how to merge them into one part yet... but I'll get there.

Carl

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 Post subject: Re: The Mixup Master Skewb...
PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2011 9:45 pm 
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Nice work there, Carl, but as I said in the Solidworks session last weekend, think about the concavity of the pieces. If the stem is going to sit nicely against the surfaces on either side of it, then it must have the same concavity as those surfaces. But the piece that sits between the square center on the U face and the corner to the left of it, must be the same as the piece that sits between the square center on the F face and the corner up and to the right of it. But those two spaces have opposite concavity. Thus the only shape that could fit into both places is a circle. Circular stems are not good for twisty puzzles, as they rely on point contact, which can be worn down by just a bit of use.

Keep thinking about it. You may need to wait for flexible materials for this puzzle to work with this type of mechanism.

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 Post subject: Re: The Mixup Master Skewb...
PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2011 9:07 am 
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pirsquared wrote:
Thus the only shape that could fit into both places is a circle.
The stems won't be circles. They'll be the intersection of 4 cones and should be much closer to squares in appearence then circles. Still this design, regardless of rather it works or not, is helping me learn SolidWorks. And if it doesn't work I hope having a non-working prototype should make it easier to see were I'd need to go next. Personally I think it will work but maybe it won't work very well. And even if it doesn't work I still get a kick out of designing a 3D object and then being able to hold it in my hands. That and this curvy track for the pieces to slide in I think is an original idea so I think its worth giving the idea a shot.

Carl

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 Post subject: Re: The Mixup Master Skewb...
PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2011 10:27 am 
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I look forward to seeing this! There is a combine feature in solidworks, I don't remember how to get to it, though. That's how you make it all one piece.

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 Post subject: Re: The Mixup Master Skewb...
PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2011 11:02 am 
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Getting there...

Image

Still haven't figured out the combine feature in an assembly. Also need to figure out how to hollow pieces. But I have the filleting figured out.

Also the edge piece, the last piece I need to make is just a shape mod of the X-Centers however I have yet to figure out how to make it. Its the exact same cuts that make the X-Centers but I need to rotate the base cube. But I think the cuts I have made are tied to the cube. Hmmm... I'll figure it out.

Carl

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 Post subject: Re: The Mixup Master Skewb...
PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2011 2:11 pm 
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Ok... got the edge rotated into position.

Image

And here is a 3D PDF.

http://wwwmwww.com/Puzzle/MMSkewb/SMMS_V1.PDF

Now I have to figure out how to hollow the pieces and how (or if) I'm going to seperate the core into 2 pieces. Any suggestions?

Carl

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 Post subject: Re: The Mixup Master Skewb...
PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2011 2:20 pm 
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Looking good!
You can hollow using the shell command. However, it's usually best done before filleting.

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 Post subject: Re: The Mixup Master Skewb...
PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2011 2:45 pm 
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TomZ wrote:
Looking good!

Thanks!!!
TomZ wrote:
You can hollow using the shell command. However, it's usually best done before filleting.

I can un-fillet it if needed that shouldn't be a problem. Designing this thing sure was a fun geometry exersise. The only planar surfaces in this entire puzzle are the 6 faces of the cube.

Once I get this hollowed I'm tempting to try printing the core as one piece and see if I have enough play with Strong White and Flexable to get all the pieces in. Good or bad idea?

Carl

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 Post subject: Re: The Mixup Master Skewb...
PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2011 2:48 pm 
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You don't need to unfillet. You can just roll back to before you made the fillets, apply the shelling, and roll back to after the fillets and pray not too much broke.

I wouldn't go for relying on play to put the puzzle together. That would also mean relying on play to make it stay together... What about making each of the corners screw in to the core?

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 Post subject: Re: The Mixup Master Skewb...
PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2011 3:05 pm 
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TomZ wrote:
You don't need to unfillet. You can just roll back to before you made the fillets, apply the shelling, and roll back to after the fillets and pray not too much broke.

I need to play with the roll back a bit more. Its been rather unpredicable so far.
TomZ wrote:
I wouldn't go for relying on play to put the puzzle together. That would also mean relying on play to make it stay together... What about making each of the corners screw in to the core?

If there is enough play in this design I may be forced to rely on play to hold it together regardless of how I put it together. And if the pieces are ridged I wouldn't be able to put a corner into the assembled puzzle by itself. It has wings which need to go into its neighboring pieces. I think the only way to do this is cut the core in two along the diagonal between two opposite corners. Put all the pieces in and then screw the two halves together. Then I have to deal with a corner cap to hide the screw and some interior piece (assuming the centeral sphere would be hollow otherwise) to screw into. Seems like a fair bit of trouble for a puzzle which may have enough play that the pieces could be popped in at an edge location.

Carl

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 Post subject: Re: The Mixup Master Skewb...
PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2011 8:29 pm 
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Carl see there
Training model cube 3*3*3 for SolidWorks learning
forum link: viewtopic.php?f=9&p=236853

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 Post subject: Re: The Mixup Master Skewb...
PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2011 10:00 pm 
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Holy cow, Carl! You've come a long way! Great work!

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 Post subject: Re: The Mixup Master Skewb...
PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2011 11:01 pm 
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I'm worried about the turning. I trust you can design a stable puzzle, yes, but how well can this thing turn? If you cannot turn opposite vertices like in the animation above, you must rely on just slice moves. That means in order to turn this puzzle you would have to use two hands to keep it stable and a third hand to rotate it. It's hard to put it in words, but basically, try solving one of your normal cubes using only slice moves, keeping the corners still. Not easy. On a mix-up cube, you can turn R, then L', in order to make one M move, but that won't work for this one.

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 Post subject: Re: The Mixup Master Skewb...
PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2011 10:27 am 
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Rentlix wrote:
I'm worried about the turning.

You aren't the only one and I'm certainly not expecting this to have perfectly smooth turning or anything close to speed solvable. I'm hoping for something functional but we'll find out. I do certainly understand your concerns. I have a Master Skewb and never make a pure slice turn by itself either. This may end up falling in a catagory similiar to Oskar's 17x17x17. By that I mean it may end up demonstrating a proof of concept but be difficult enough to turn that it doesn't make a great puzzle. I don't forsee anyone doing a full scrable and solve on Oskar's 17x17x17 any time soon. Granted this isn't any where near as significant as a 17x17x17 but it does have one advantage. Since it has many fewer pieces it should take fewer turns to scramble and solve so even if its as hard to turn as Oskar's 17x17x17 it may come closer to being playable.

Carl

P.S. As an engineer I'm familiar with the expression K.I.S.S. That means Keep It Simple, Stupid. And I have to say its one area I've been failing at alot lately. The puzzles that interest me enough to try and design seem to be inherently complex. It helps keep the math interesting with some fun 3D geometry but they just aren't simple. My first puzzle to be printed, the Thorny Cube, keeps running into problems so I thought this would be a step toward simplier as it only has 3 types of pieces and 2 of those are just shape mods of each other. Still its a heavily fudged puzzle and its IS going to have some turning issues.

The one advantage of playing with the complex is that I can be slow, as I don't have much free time, and I still don't have to worry about someone beating me to the punch. Well maybe except for Oskar. :) But the big disadvantage is I'm not sure going in if I'll ever really be able to make these as afordable and playable puzzles. Its still fun to try...

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 Post subject: Re: The Mixup Master Skewb...
PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2011 12:30 pm 
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wwwmwww wrote:
The puzzles that interest me enough to try and design seem to be inherently complex. It helps keep the math interesting with some fun 3D geometry but they just aren't simple. But the big disadvantage is I'm not sure going in if I'll ever really be able to make these as afordable and playable puzzles. Its still fun to try...
Hey, the engineering world is full of glorious failures. The only engineer who does not make any mistakes is the one who does not try anything (and I should know!). Engineering is always a compromise between designing a "beautiful machine" and what works in the real world. I envy you guys - keep it up!

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