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 Post subject: E.T.H.A.N. Puzzle
PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 3:29 pm 
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Hello everybody, I hinted to this puzzle about a week ago in my Lotus Puzzle thread. This puzzle is an Edge Turning Hexahedron with insperation and special help from Andreas Nortman, i.e. the E.T.H.A.N. ! The puzzle works in theory, but as you can see, 2-3 of the 24 center pieces are working their way loose, causing the whole puzzle to get loose. I guess this is a proof of concept puzzle since it turns horribly :cry: . I am going to make a cage for it so that I can turn it faster and with less missalignment (i.e. less than the 17 pops in the video per turn) :mrgreen: Well, The video is an overview of the puzzle, along with the first turn which took right under 5 minutes to make and had ~16-18 pops. Maybe a V2 is in order :? .

Video!

Attachment:
1.5mm Ethan colored.pdf [2.62 MiB]
Downloaded 472 times

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Last edited by Steryne on Mon Aug 16, 2010 3:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: E.T.H.A.N. Puzzle
PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 3:37 pm 
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Does this puzzle use a build-up mechanism like the 24-cube or is it something else, like the Pentultimate groove mechanism?

Frankly, not a big surprise that this doesn't work. 57mm is just too small. But still a great first attempt.

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 Post subject: Re: E.T.H.A.N. Puzzle
PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 3:43 pm 
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This is quite impressive! All of the parts needed for a 24-cube are here in this puzzle. I'm curious of the mechanism :D

Thanks for sharing, even if it isn't the best quality.

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 Post subject: Re: E.T.H.A.N. Puzzle
PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 3:47 pm 
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Wow. I think it's great. It does work. Great achievement even though turning is still horrible.
Do you know if it jumbles?

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 Post subject: Re: E.T.H.A.N. Puzzle
PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 3:55 pm 
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That's very cool, I like it. It looks like it could turn like a 3x3x3 as well.

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 Post subject: Re: E.T.H.A.N. Puzzle
PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 4:00 pm 
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Wow, Thanks for all the responce. I have edited my first post to answer some mechanical questions. After all of the pieces are glued together, their are no hidden pieces or hidden layers. Also, the black pieces wern't printed, as I thought the puzzle would be better without them. If you think you can improve the puzzle, consider this design open for altering, just give me credit where it is desirved. If you would like some of the files (.igs, .stl, etc.) please contact me through pm.
Thanks,
Tanner Frisby

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 Post subject: Re: E.T.H.A.N. Puzzle
PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 4:30 pm 
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I think with some tuning and breaking in, it will become useable! no?

Great Master 24 Cube!

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 Post subject: Re: E.T.H.A.N. Puzzle
PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 4:31 pm 
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Wow!
I am curious, how the evolutionary development and improvement will be for this puzzle. I really respect all the time you (as allthe other builders) are investing to create and improve such mechanisms. Please keep us on track.

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 Post subject: Re: E.T.H.A.N. Puzzle
PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 4:34 pm 
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This puzzle looks like a great concept, its a shame it didn't work out better in the end. however looking at your mechansim this puzzle seems to be quite overcomplicated. It appears as if the pieces are being held in from the top side down into the core, rather than the core holding parts in. I think this works against your design.

The grips too seem a bit small, that adds to the already compromised integrity. I gotta say, great attempt.

@Doubleyou, this isn't a master 24 cube.

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 Post subject: Re: E.T.H.A.N. Puzzle
PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 4:49 pm 
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Good work! This is essentially a cubic version of my "Toru" puzzle from some time ago--a very difficult puzzle indeed! If you would like some help getting the movement sorted out, I'd be happy to help out if I can.

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 Post subject: Re: E.T.H.A.N. Puzzle
PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 4:52 pm 
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@Drewseph Why is this not a master 24 cube?

This is a really cool puzzle and if the turns were perfected, I'd buy one in a heartbeat!

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 Post subject: Re: E.T.H.A.N. Puzzle
PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 4:58 pm 
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Because there is no cut through the centroid of the solid.

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 Post subject: Re: E.T.H.A.N. Puzzle
PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 5:27 pm 
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I always pictured a master 24 cube like this... :roll:

I wonder how it looks then. In another topic..

btw. there is no cut through the centroid of a master pentultimate either..?

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 Post subject: Re: E.T.H.A.N. Puzzle
PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 5:44 pm 
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the.drizzle wrote:
Because there is no cut through the centroid of the solid.

The "master pentultimate" has no cut going through the center, yet it is still goes by that name. In my opinion, this puzzle is no different.

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 Post subject: Re: E.T.H.A.N. Puzzle
PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 6:39 pm 
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Too bad it didn't work out. I can't wait to see V2. I know lots of people like the 24 cube, but this seem cooler because it has all the 24 cube pieces and then some.

will_57 wrote:
the.drizzle wrote:
Because there is no cut through the centroid of the solid.

The "master pentultimate" has no cut going through the center, yet it is still goes by that name. In my opinion, this puzzle is no different.

Same with "master skewb"

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 Post subject: Re: E.T.H.A.N. Puzzle
PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 8:21 pm 
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a master 24 cube/chop would turn like a 24 cube, and then turn again on the edges half way, making 2 slices of rotation.

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 Post subject: Re: E.T.H.A.N. Puzzle
PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 8:31 pm 
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So would a better thing to call this puzzle be a shallow cut 24 cube, ss it has center peices? Or a Compy 24 Cube?

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 Post subject: Re: E.T.H.A.N. Puzzle
PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 9:51 pm 
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Drewseph wrote:
a master 24 cube/chop would turn like a 24 cube, and then turn again on the edges half way, making 2 slices of rotation.
As stated before if that is your definition of master then master pentultimate and also master skewb are misnamed. I felt this way about the master skewb when i first saw it and the master pentultimate because they are both order 2 (as i see it order is defined by cuts per axis making deep cut puzzles order 1) and the original master cube is a 4x4x4 which is order 3.
From what you've said here about what a master 24 cube would be, a master skewb would have skewb cuts plus shallower ones. two puzzles like that exist, TomZ's dinoskewb and your elite skewb. The master cube was named first and i have hence always thought master should mean order 3 but the master skewb and master pentultimate and this are all really order 2 equivalents of their deep cut (order 1) counterparts.
That said i don't expect the master cube or master skewb to be re named so were stuck with the term "master" being a little ambiguous.

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 Post subject: Re: E.T.H.A.N. Puzzle
PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 9:59 pm 
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The master cube was named as the higher order version of the Rubik's cube. The master skewb is the higher order version of the skewb. Going by that logic, I see this as a master 24 cube because it is the higher order version of a 24 cube. A 4x4x4 equivelant of a 24 cube in my opinion would be a master Ethan, not a master 24 cube..

How did you make this puzzle with no internal pieces?
Edt: Why did I think it didn't have any internal pieces? :lol:
Great puzzle. I have allways wanted a master chop.

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Last edited by PuzzleMaster6262 on Mon Aug 16, 2010 10:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: E.T.H.A.N. Puzzle
PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 10:01 pm 
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This is obviously a 122 cube :roll: Duh!

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 Post subject: Re: E.T.H.A.N. Puzzle
PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 10:12 pm 
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PuzzleMaster6262 wrote:
The master cube was named as the higher order version of the Rubik's cube. The master skewb is the higher order version of the skewb. Going by that logic, I see this as a master 24 cube because it is the higher order version of a 24 cube. A 4x4x4 equivelant of a 24 cube in my opinion would be a master Ethan, not a master 24 cube..
I thought about looking at it that way but i then thought that what he described could also be looked at as a master helicopter cube just as a 4x4x4 is a 3x3x3 with added deep cuts what was described would be a helicopter cube with added deep cuts. A 4x4x4 could also be looked at as a 2x2x2 with added shallow cuts hence if a 24 cube with added shallow cuts is considered a master 24 a 4x4x4 would be considered a master 2x2x2, see what i mean about it being ambiguous. The problem is an order 2 face turning cube is a 3x3x3 no matter what but an order 2 edge turning cube can be a whole lot of different puzzles (this puzzle and a helicopter cube to name a couple) depending on the depth.

I'm going to just call it E.T.H.A.N because that's what Steryne called it and he's the one that built it.

On topic it is a crazy puzzle and i do hope a V2 is built.

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 Post subject: Re: E.T.H.A.N. Puzzle
PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 11:48 pm 
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I got around to looking at the model and I think for the v2 the center pieces should not extend so deep. That would help with friction along with it locking up(if it does lock up). Also the rest of the puzzle looks really over complicated. Maybe bolts could be used to hold the external large pieces to the inner pieces. It would make the stalk a lot stronger and also smaller. By making it smaller, the next layer should have enough grip to hold all the pieces in.

That is just my opinion after spending a couple minutes looking at the model. I really hope the v2 is perfect.

P.S. I kinda wish my cross cube/48 cube was built like this :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: E.T.H.A.N. Puzzle
PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 2:45 am 
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Very interesting design. And judging from the pieces,
the movement is pretty good for such a prototype.

Will surely wait for the next updated version!

:)


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 Post subject: Re: E.T.H.A.N. Puzzle
PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 8:59 am 
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Thanks for all of the comments. Based on what I was able to do with it, I don't think I will make a V2 in the near future. I have too many other designs and not enough funds. A $150 paperweight really sucks, and I really don't want another one. I do think this puzzle could work, but I have other ideas fro the near future.

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 Post subject: Re: E.T.H.A.N. Puzzle
PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 10:00 am 
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Really excellent start. I sincerely hope you'll pursue a version 2.0!


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 Post subject: Re: E.T.H.A.N. Puzzle
PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 12:32 am 
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I have NEVER agreed with the names Master Skewb or Master Pentultimate. It appears that some people have now figured out why 8-)

The naming system is unfortunately all screwed up. It has arisen from two main problems:

1. For face turning cubes, the "standard" name is for a 3x3x3. For some other puzzles, the "standard" name has been given to other orders, for example the Skewb and Penultimate, which both are of the same order as a 2x2x2.
2. For face turning cubes, there is a clearly defined notion of deepcut puzzles (the even numbered ones, ex. 4x4x4, 6x6x6, etc) For other shapes, this could be interpretted 2 different ways. (the dodecahedral equivalent of a 2x2x2 is either a pentultimate or a kilominx depending on how you interpret the relationship between a 3x3x3 and a 2x2x2)

The progression from 2x2x2 to 3x3x3 to 4x4x4 to 5x5x5, etc. is not uniform mechanically/mathematically and thus the interpretation to find related puzzles of different shapes has room for ambiguity. HOWEVER, the progression does ALTERNATE for ALL shapes. That is, the relationship from 3x3x3 to 5x5x5 to 7x7x7 (every other size), etc is uniform and can be applied to ALL solids. Yet another reason i define order the way I do (3x3x3 = 1st order, 5x5x5 = 2nd order, 4x4x4 is simply a deep cut 2nd order, and a 2x2x2 is a deepcut 1st order. In otherwords, "deepcut-edness" is a specific property of the "size" above.

For now however, based on the naming convention of Master Skewb and Master Pentultimate (again names I DON'T 100% agree with), it would correctly follow the apparent pattern to call this a Master 24 Cube.

Peace,
Matt Galla

PS: I already know Drewseph probably won't like my disagreement with the name for Master Skewb, but there's actually an entirely different story there. Drew's Master Skewb is built via a tetrahedral mechanism. Notice that a tetrahedron does not have faces opposite eachother. Deepcut puzzles (IMO) can only exist when faces of the core shape have parallel faces on the opposite side of the puzzle (this means IMO there is no such thing as a deepcut Meteor Madness puzzle [making all the cuts go through the "center" of the puzzle changes nothing from the cuts going just outside the very center of the puzzle]) Anyways, this means it is CORRECT to say Drew's Master Skewb is a 2nd order tetrahedral puzzle. It is also correct to say Okamoto's and Tony Fisher's Master Skewbs are each 1st order octahedral puzzles (not deepcut). It seems unreasonable that two puzzles that function identically can be classified two different ways simply because they have different mechanisms, but that's the duality nature of tetrahedral-/octahedral-cored puzzles. Unfortunately, this presents a HUGE problem in the naming convention. Strictly speaking, mass-produced Skewbs are built with tetrahedral mechs (they could be built with octahedral mechs, but that'd be silly :P). Drew's Master Skewb simply adds another layer all around this tetrahedral mech. Just like 3x3x3 -> 5x5x5. So in some sense, the prefix Master- does seem applicable. On the other hand, an octahedral based Master Skewb is simply the final form of the octahedral equivalent of a 3x3x3 and clearly a first order puzzle (by my convention) [my apologies, final form is a term I have used in my own personal work not on this site. Short explanation: I think most people here see the progression Megaminx -> Pyraminx Crystal ->Starminx, correct? Final form is the last puzzle you would get before hitting the deepcut puzzle if it exists. (so what is currently called the Master Pentultimate would be the 1st order final form of the dodecahedron core)] -_- I always type WAY more than I intend to.... I hope no one minds too much. The point was that viewed this way, the name Master Skewb does not carry the same meaning as it does for, say, the Master Helicpoter Cube, and so seems inaccurate. This stupid tetrahedral/octahedral duality is really putting a kink in my classification/analysis system >.<


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 Post subject: Re: E.T.H.A.N. Puzzle
PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 1:18 am 
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Agreed, until you got to:

Allagem wrote:
For now however, based on the naming convention of Master Skewb and Master Pentultimate (again names I DON'T 100% agree with), it would correctly follow the apparent pattern to call this a Master 24 Cube.


A statement with two big problems:

1. The original builder has dubbed this puzzle E.T.H.A.N., and convention dictates that the first person to realize a design gets naming rights.

2. There is no real difference between this and the Helicopter Cube in terms of number of cuts, none of which pass through the centroid of the shape. Thus, it would be just as fair to call a Helicopter Cube a Master 24-Cube, which nobody is silly enough to do... :)

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 Post subject: Re: E.T.H.A.N. Puzzle
PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 1:21 am 
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the.drizzle wrote:
which nobody is silly enough to do... :)

Really? Because I'm fairly sure I have black master 24 cube in my bag, all jumbled up! :D

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 Post subject: Re: E.T.H.A.N. Puzzle
PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 2:08 am 
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the.drizzle wrote:
A statement with two big problems:

1. The original builder has dubbed this puzzle E.T.H.A.N., and convention dictates that the first person to realize a design gets naming rights.

Well of course :lol: I was merely analyzing the consideration of the name Master 24-Cube as someone else above suggested *glare* :roll: :wink:
the.drizzle wrote:
2. There is no real difference between this and the Helicopter Cube in terms of number of cuts, none of which pass through the centroid of the shape. Thus, it would be just as fair to call a Helicopter Cube a Master 24-Cube, which nobody is silly enough to do... :)


True (-ish). And I stated this in my above post, though perhaps not very well. This is an ambiguity in the hopelessly inadequate naming convention we as the leading twistypuzzles inventors have created so far due to a consequence of reason number 2 in my post above (at the top, labelled 2.)
Assuming we are trying to extend naming conventions from face turning cubes to other shapes, we run into the concept of deeper/shallower cut puzzles. This does not occur on puzzles with cubical cores since there is no dihedral angle between non-adjacent faces of a cube that is not 180 degrees. The helicopter cube is a 1st order rhombic dodecahedral cored puzzle that is shallower cut than the E.T.H.A.N. (by my order convention). The E.T.H.A.N. is also a 1st order rhombic dodecahedral cored puzzle that is deeper cut than the helicopter cube. In fact, I would call it the final form of the 1st order rhombic dodecahedral cored puzzle family because deepening the cuts any further makes no meaningful changes until the fully deepcut 24-Cube (your baby! :P )

I suppose my analytical mind subconsciously biased my above post towards final form puzzles because, as a RULE, the pieces of a deepcut puzzle only ever appear on the final form of the related puzzle one "size" above (note the 24-Cube pieces in the E.T.H.A.N.) The connection to face turning cubes is simply that the 2x2x2 pieces (THE corners) are present on the 3x3x3 so by analogy it seems that the 24-Cube pieces (<->2x2x2) should be present on the next "size" up, which gives us the final form puzzle, (3x3x3<->) the E.T.H.A.N. Likewise in other shapes, under this analogy, the 3x3x3 is related to what is called the Master Pentultimate for dodecahedra and the Master Skewb for octahedra (perhaps an octahedral shape mod of the Master Skewb would be more accurate), as opposed to Starminx/Pyraminx Crystal/Megaminx or Rainbow Cube/Dino Cube/Dino Octa/FTO. However, I think anyone could at this point easily develop an effective argument for the analogy between a Megaminx and a 3x3x3. Thus the ambiguity. Do we take it all? (Master Pentultimate/E.T.H.A.N) or none? (megaminx/helicopter cube) or somewhere in between? (Starminx/Toru) Which should be analogous to a 3x3x3 for the purposes of naming?

We should REALLY try to set some standardizations for naming, but alas I'm not aggresive enough to force everyone to follow my classifications :lol:

Peace,
Matt Galla

PS: didn't mean to get so off topic... Congrats Steryne, this is quite an accomplishment, even if it BARELY works (you can make a 24-Cube [with even worse turning] out of this in about 10 minutes flat, if you're quick :wink: ) and already have the attachments ready. Just need to sand it into a sphere, bandage the right things together, and glue on those attachments


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 Post subject: Re: E.T.H.A.N. Puzzle
PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 4:42 am 
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so is TomZ's Dino Skewb the real Master Skewb now?

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 Post subject: Re: E.T.H.A.N. Puzzle
PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 8:45 am 
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the.drizzle wrote:
2. There is no real difference between this and the Helicopter Cube in terms of number of cuts, none of which pass through the centroid of the shape. Thus, it would be just as fair to call a Helicopter Cube a Master 24-Cube, which nobody is silly enough to do... :)
I have to disagree with that, as Matt pointed out this has all the 24 cube pieces, helicopter has none.
Allagem wrote:
I have NEVER agreed with the names Master Skewb or Master Pentultimate. It appears that some people have now figured out why
Elwyn wrote:
master pentultimate and also master skewb are misnamed. I felt this way about the master skewb when i first saw it
I'd hardly call that "now figured out" but yes i do agree with you. But really i'd prefer to call those two, and this, master versions because they contain all the pieces of the deep cut versions plus more, and just call a 4x4x4 a 4x4x4 not a master cube. Using your order system i suppose you would just call them 1st order non deep cut but as i mentioned earlier, and so did you, that could encompass many different puzzles. Using master to mean the deepest cut puzzle that isn't quite deep cut wouldn't be as ambiguous and could be used for all the platonic solids and all types of turning (edge, face and corner) Master cube is the only one that doesn't fit as that would actually be a 3x3x3 but sadly the master cube and master skewb have already been named and people don't like changing established names.
I've always thought the 4x4x4 had too many names :lol:

I had a quick search and couldn't find a thread for naming conventions. This loosely about this puzzle... kind of :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: E.T.H.A.N. Puzzle
PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 11:17 am 
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Well done Tanner. Wonderful concept.

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 Post subject: Re: E.T.H.A.N. Puzzle
PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 2:18 pm 
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Thanks for an on-topic post!

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 Post subject: Re: E.T.H.A.N. Puzzle
PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 12:01 pm 
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Steryne wrote:
This puzzle is an Edge Turning Hexahedron with insperation and special help from Andreas Nortmann.
Stupid fool that I am I had to rediscover this thread before giving an answer.
Anyway: You give me to much credit for my help. All I did was to say: "Try something new instead of rebuild something known". Well I was more precise but that is a different story.


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 Post subject: Re: E.T.H.A.N. Puzzle
PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 12:04 pm 
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Well, I like E.T.H.A.N. better than E.T.H. or 122 cube. And you provided some information I wasn't able to find (ie springs)

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