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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 4:43 am 
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Katten wrote:
1. Pair edges
2. Place edges onto their correct face, like on a Pyraminx Crystal
3. Reduce centers
4. Place the center triangles like on 1.1.5
5. Place diamonds - not quite sure how I would do that yet
6. Solve the rest like 1.1.5
Or would that be completely backwards? This is however my first thoughts on how I would solve it. I might give it a try soon-ish, I'm still not completely awake, so I might wait until I am.
I'm confused by some of your steps too. Reduce centres? do you mean triangles or do you mean solve centres? Also as far as your step 2 solving the edges is when you would find the parity so that's good (though if i were going for fewest moves as Brandon said i would then undo this step). As for step 6 solve the rest i'm not sure what would be left.. perhaps the trapezoids if your step 3 was solve centre pentagons. If so looks like your method should work not the most efficient but is probably the most straight forward way of solving it and possibly could be done rather fast but i think i like mine best. Also those diamonds shouldn't be too hard for you to move around... think slice moves.
bmenrigh wrote:
You'll probably beat my time
I might have to do that on my second or third solve of it, i wonder if i can do it in less than an hour. All right enough talk i think i might have to start solving it now. The first solve will be for fewest moves and could take a very long time.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 5:00 am 
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Yes, I meant solve centers. And concerning my last step, what would be left, would be the trapezoid pieces. I mistakenly called them triangles in step 4. Obviously I meant the actual triangle pieces, not the trapezoids. My methods are never the most efficient, not in my first solve at least. Your solution method is without a doubt a better one than mine, but then there's the fact that I'll feel much better about solving it if I came up with the steps for it myself :lol: So that's what I'll do first, and then I'll try your way. Just like I did with 1.1.10 :D
Elwyn wrote:
Also those diamonds shouldn't be too hard for you to move around... think slice moves.
Yeah, I was considering that as a possibility as well.

I would love to start solving it right now, but I have work in 2 hours, so I'll have a lot of trouble leaving my unsolved puzzle behind if I'm not done in 2 hours, so I think I'll wait until I get home. Also, I want to have a genuine solving time, not a 23 hour one like on the Master Pyraminx Crystal :lol:

EDIT: so just for future reference, my revised solution method for 1.1.20 would look like this:
1. Pair edges
2. Place edges onto their correct face, like on a Pyraminx Crystal
3. Solve center pentagons
4. Solve triangle pieces, like on 1.1.4/1.1.5
5. Place diamond pieces - with slice moves
6. Solve the trapezoids

You may very well call it a newbie method, but I too think it'll work just fine :D


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 8:47 am 
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Completely reduced at 454 moves. Pretty good considering i got the stupid parity and all and i had to do three different types of reduction edge pairs triangles then diamonds. I wish i was more confident in my 1.1.5 ability but unlike Michael i can't solve it in 382 moves. That and a slice move is counted as two moves on this puzzle. My aim is under 1000 all up and i'm still not sure i'll get it.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 10:04 am 
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Good job! I'll start my solve soon-ish :D But I think I'll use a lot more than a 1000 moves :lol: Btw, did you prove our assumption right about how to place the diamond pieces?


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 11:06 am 
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Done in 908 moves. Always nice to beat a record by more than 600 moves. As you can see i wasn't lying when i said it could take a very long time :shock: I did have a break though. I solved it exactly like i said i would on the last page. I was rather unlucky in the fact only 2 triangles were already solved when i finished the centres which was really annoying and i got parity and i didn't get very many perfect three cycles either so i'm sure this could be beaten but i'd still be impressed with whoever beats it.
Katten wrote:
Btw, did you prove our assumption right about how to place the diamond pieces
not sure what you mean that was meant to be a very vague hint as i already know how to solve the diamonds. I supose i could have made that clearer :lol: I solved some of them with a (1,1) slice only alg but it moves too many pieces to really be practical after a while and i had to switch to a (3,1) where the 3 are slice moves and the 1 isn't.
Katten wrote:
I'll start my solve soon-ish
Good luck it is a beast of a puzzle and will probably take a long time even without trying to use as few moves as possible.

As a little side not it took me exactly half the moves 454 to reduce it and half the moves 454 to solve the reduced puzzle
I should also be able to smash my previous 1.1.18 record

Also i am not completely sure about this but i am starting to strongly think 1.1.17 can be reduced to a megaminx :?
Edit: yes it can and i think it could end in an amazing move count and a very sore brain and eyes. It would look like one big confusing mess right until the end. first make three 2 colour edges around each corner then fill in the corners with big triangles then solve the centres then pair megaminx edges (small thin triangles) then add the small wide triangles to the corners then solve megaminx.

I thought of this because i was wondering what 1.1.17 with only shallow cuts was. turns out it's just an odd looking megaminx equivalent though 1.1.17 without being truncated is a completely different story. I think it would have 1.1.2 and 1.1.4 cuts.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 12:14 pm 
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Elwyn wrote:
Done in 908 moves.
I'm speechless :shock: I've only gotten 12 edge pairs so far, and I started 10 minutes ago :lol: I feel like I should be getting a better handle of this, but somehow I'm not.
Elwyn wrote:
Good luck it is a beast of a puzzle and will probably take a long time even without trying to use as few moves as possible.
Thanks, I really need it. But it's only a matter of time until I'll get better at it, then I'll hopefully be able to solve it without having too much trouble.
Elwyn wrote:
Also i am not completely sure about this but i am starting to strongly think 1.1.17 can be reduced to a megaminx Edit: yes it can and i think it could end in an amazing move count and a very sore brain and eyes. It would look like one big confusing mess right until the end. first make three 2 colour edges around each corner then fill in the corners with big triangles then solve the centres then pair megaminx edges (small thin triangles) then add the small wide triangles to the corners then solve megaminx.
Hm, I think you're right! If I finish this beast sometime today, I'll try that one next :D Great discovery though, you'll probably smash the fewest move record on that one before I even finish 1.1.20 :lol:

EDIT: I've now paired up all the edges, using intuition only. Wasn't that hard, actually. But I usually require some time to figure things out for myself, so I may have overestimated this part of the solve, seeing as it wasn't hard at all. At this stage I'm quite optimistic, but we'll have to see it I can finish it before I fall asleep. It's passed midnight here in Europe :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 6:50 pm 
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I'm down to step 2.5 - which would be parity. I absolutely hate solving parity on a Pyraminx Crystal. I hate it so much. I have no specific algorithm/commutator for it, so it takes forever to solve it if I don't pay close attention to what I do, which at this point I don't. Good thing I included step 2 though, otherwise I wouldn't have noticed until way out in the solve, which would get me even more annoyed. My current move count... 1736 :lol: Efficiency is not my thing.


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 7:41 pm 
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Katten wrote:
I'm down to step 2.5 - which would be parity. I absolutely hate solving parity on a Pyraminx Crystal. I hate it so much. I have no specific algorithm/commutator for it, so it takes forever to solve it if I don't pay close attention to what I do, which at this point I don't. Good thing I included step 2 though, otherwise I wouldn't have noticed until way out in the solve, which would get me even more annoyed. My current move count... 1736 :lol: Efficiency is not my thing.
I feel your pain. Time and moves aren't my thing either as is evident from the records page. We need to be more explicit about what you mean by a parity. To me a parity means the puzzle is in an odd permutation. That's impossible on the Pyraminx Crystal. That is, if two edges have the wrong orientation then you are in an even state and you can solve via just 3-cycles. If only two edges are swapped you are also in an even state and can't solve via 3-cycles.

On 1.1.3 you can only have two edges in the wrong orientation you can do just 3-cycles. If you have one flipped (impossible on 1.1.3) then you have a parity. When you build pairs edges on puzzles like a 4x4x4 cube you can have a single pair in the wrong orientation. When you are pairing edges on dodecahedra like 1.1.18, 1.1.19, 1.1.20, etc you can't have an orientation parity but you can have a position parity.

To fix two edge pairs swapped you have to break the pairs and do a 3-cycle that includes 2 edge parts that have the same two colors on them before putting the edges back together.

Later today I'll give you a clean algorithm to fix even permutation orientation issues (two edges flipped) like on 1.1.3 and explain the logic behind how to do it on many puzzles.

EDIT: Corrected per Elywn's correct observation that you can't get a orientation parity on 1.1.18, 1.1.19, 1.1.20 etc. Duh! I'm really losing it lately... :oops:

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Last edited by Brandon Enright on Fri Jul 09, 2010 9:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 9:12 pm 
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Katten wrote:
I absolutely hate solving parity on a Pyraminx Crystal.
Yeah ummm there is no parity on a normal pyraminx crystal. :?
bmenrigh wrote:
On 1.1.3 you can only have two edges in the wrong orientation you can do just 3-cycles. If you have one flipped (impossible on 1.1.3) then you have a parity.
I never got orientation parity and i was thinking you couldn't, i did however run into permutation parity everything solved but two edges in the wrong spot. This is also what i ran into back on 1.1.19 and 1.1.18 are you sure you can get orientation parity in the form of a single flipped edge? Even if you can which i don't think is right you forgot to mention the two swapped pieces as i'm pretty sure you can't fix this viewtopic.php?p=210689#p210689 with three cycles :wink:

As well as 1.1.17 being solvable by reduction to megaminx (which as well as being stupidly difficult to do would also involve more than 1 parity) 1.1.14 can be solved with reduction to 1.1.4
1 pair edges
2 add wide triangles to corners
3 add 1 colour corner cubies to edges (they are the same as the diamonds on 1.1.18)
4 solve 1.1.4

should really be around the same move count as 1.1.20 so Doug's record seems ridiculously beatable.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 10:54 pm 
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This is about solving edge orientation in pairs on puzzles like the Pyraminx Crystal (1.1.3). It really applies to almost any puzzle that has edges where two of them can be flipped in place. This isn't a parity although some people tend to call it that. Here is what I mean:
Attachment:
edges_1.1.3.png
edges_1.1.3.png [ 22.11 KiB | Viewed 3999 times ]
The idea behind solving this is quite simple and builds off of a pure 3-cycle of edges. On most any puzzle with orientable edges it's easy to move a piece out of its position and put it back in that same position but with a different orientation.

Using applet notation, on 1.1.3 do: B2, I', H', B2

Clearly that breaks stuff. If you could undo that breakage with the inverse though you could do something useful. You can just combine it with the simple (1,1) commutator for 1.1.3: R', L, R, L' to flip an edge. In applet notation:

/* 3-cycle setup */
[C, F', C', F],
/* Flip one of the cycled edges */
[B2, I', H', B2],
/* Undo original 3-cycle */
[F', C, F, C'],
/* Undo edge flip breakage */
[B'2, H, I, B'2]

Note that this work for puzzles like the Megaminx too:

/* 3-cycle */
[F,A,F',A,F,A'2,F'],
/* Move some cycled parts out of the way */
[B',E],
/* Flip and edge */
[F'2,I,J,F'2],
/* Put the moved parts back */
[B,E'],
/* Undo 3-cycle */
[F,A2,F',A',F,A',F'],
/* Move parts back out of the way */
[B',E],
/* Undo edge flip */
[F2,J',I',F2],
/* Put parts back */
[B,E']

And even the Rubik's cube:

[R2,U',F,B',R2,B,F',U',R2],
[F',L,D,F2],
[R2,U,F,B',R2,B,F',U,R2],
[F2,D',L',F]

Obviously this construction isn't meant to be efficient. It's meant to be simple, general, and pure. As long as the edge flipping moves you pick don't move any cycled pieces other than one edge you'll always end up with a flipped pair (pure). You don't even need a pure 3-cycle. Using this "trick" you should be able to pick a puzzle you've never twisted on before like 2.1.1 and with a few minutes of playing be able to flip two edges.

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Last edited by Brandon Enright on Wed Jul 21, 2010 12:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 11:53 pm 
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For flipping two edges on a pyraminx crystal i have always liked this

C'2, K', C2, F2, K', F'2, B', F2, K, F'2, C'2, K, C2, B,

where B can be B' B2 or B2' to flip any two edges on the top face. Pure, simple to perform and short (14 moves). So that it is clearer what i mean by the top face and also to make the orientation of the puzzle when i perform that alg more obvious on gelatinbrain i always keep the dodecahedrons so that the left picture (the one i concentrate on) has a flat top and bottom like a real dodecahedral puzzle would sit on a table. If your not sure what i mean look at any of the screen shots i have posted. I try not to change the puzzle orientation too much so to perform the K moves i just click on the bottom of the right hand picture.

I went back to when Doug solved 1.1.14 in this thread and it seems he came very close to the exact method i just described after he had solved it but never put it into practice. He suggested reducing the edges completely but didn't mention adding the wide triangles to the three colour pyraminx crystal corners before the 1.1.4 solve. And here i thought i was being innovative :lol: well if anyone thought of 1.1.17 as reducible to a megaminx before i'd be very surprised.

reading his solution also gave me some completely unrelated information.
DougCube wrote:
Also, the 3-cycle of 1-color corner-pieces I showed on my previous post, I was able to fix at the start of today's sitting by using the concept of using chained-conjugation to cycle 3 corners on the same layer on a 3x3 (think R'D'R-U-R'DR-U-R'D'R-U'U'-R'DR).
though a very inefficient way of moving the pieces he was talking about this is how i permute corners on a megaminx but what someone might find more interesting is it is also one of the ways i moved segments around on the 6.2.1 spheres i just didn't know what it was called. Useful because it gives a three cycle and preserves the orientation of all the segments though due to jumbling not always possible.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sat Jul 10, 2010 2:16 am 
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Elwyn wrote:
For flipping two edges on a pyraminx crystal i have always liked this

C'2, K', C2, F2, K', F'2, B', F2, K, F'2, C'2, K, C2, B,

where B can be B' B2 or B2' to flip any two edges on the top face. Pure, simple to perform and short (14 moves).
That's the same routine I use because it's simple and flexible. Using the method I describe above though it's possible to come up with something shorter such as

[C,F',C'],[H2,G'2,H2],[C,F,C'],[H'2,G2,H'2]

Even though it isn't as flexible and would probably require a setup move to work on the pieces you want to flip, thereby negating the savings of being a shorter algorithm.

Edit: or in 8 moves via [F], [C2,G'2,C2], [F'], [C'2,G2,C'2]


As for 1.1.14, I see 1.1.4 in it and yeah, that sounds like it would be a very efficient method. Great eye. With 1.1.17 though I don't see the Megaminx in there. Any chance you can post a screenshot illustrating the pieces you'd group?

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Last edited by Brandon Enright on Sun Jul 11, 2010 3:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sat Jul 10, 2010 3:04 am 
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1.1.17 as a megaminx.jpg
1.1.17 as a megaminx.jpg [ 141.72 KiB | Viewed 4100 times ]
The whole area outlined by red is a corner and the two triangles coloured in blue are an edge. It is exceptionally hard to visualise because it isn't regular megaminx cuts it is 1.1.2 though because of the truncation the pyraminx crystal edges are gone and it can be solved like a megaminx.
Give it a try, do a corner PLL on it using only shallow cuts, it works that's what finally allowed me to see it. The edges can be thought of as one piece even though they are separated just like on 1.1.2. I found pairing edges on 1.1.8 to be quite a bit to get my head around having to make sure you had one and only one of every legal megaminx edge but on this it would be hell.

As a proper outline

1. make the corners first with the two colour pieces using basic stuff and a (1,1) commutator and check for parity which could manifest it'self as a single twisted corner but that would really just be a three cycle or two swapped corners which would be two three cycles.

2. fill out the corners with the big triangles with a very dirty (3,1)

3. solve centre pentagons (3,1)

4. pair edges making one of each (i.e no white yellow edge) with another (3,1) almost pure (small wide triangles move too) Also another parity possible here.

5. Add small wide triangles to corners (3,1)

6. solve reduced megaminx

The last move can be dropped from all the (3,1) algs and also the (1,1) and no undoing set-ups. As for a guess at move count i'd say 1500 is very conservative and it could go as low 1000 with some luck and a very determined solver but i really can't be sure yet (after solving 1.1.42 i feel the lower limit is under 1000 and perhaps a solve of around 980 is a good goal but i won't know till i try it). It seems pretty low but a couple of days ago would you have guessed 1.1.20 could be done in 900 moves?

Edit: I solved it in 720 moves... seems i was being a bit pessimistic.

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Last edited by Elwyn on Mon Nov 29, 2010 10:34 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sat Jul 10, 2010 5:43 am 
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This isn't parity? :shock: Seeing at you can get a similar case on the 4x4x4, and that's called parity, I automatically assumed that this would qualify as parity as well.
Elwyn wrote:
I never got orientation parity and i was thinking you couldn't, i did however run into permutation parity everything solved but two edges in the wrong spot. This is also what i ran into back on 1.1.19 and 1.1.18 are you sure you can get orientation parity in the form of a single flipped edge? Even if you can which i don't think is right you forgot to mention the two swapped pieces as i'm pretty sure you can't fix this viewtopic.php?p=210689#p210689 with three cycles
Yes, this is the case I'm having. Usually I fix it with a 3-cycle, but last night I was too tired to get it right :?


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sat Jul 10, 2010 5:59 am 
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Also, thanks for the numerous algorithms for the non-parity case on a Pyraminx Crystal. I think I'll just start my 1.1.20 solve over again, though. As I fell asleep with my computer on, which lead to a currently 18 hour long solve :lol: I would like to be able to solve it all at once, giving it a more genuine time. Not sure what puzzle I'll try after I finish this, as it looks like I'll fry my brain a little bit a long the way. Any suggestions?


Last edited by Katja on Sun Jul 25, 2010 6:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sat Jul 10, 2010 2:27 pm 
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Katten wrote:
Attachment:
Prosjekt 1.1.20 problem.jpg
This isn't parity? :shock: Seeing at you can get a similar case on the 4x4x4, and that's called parity, I automatically assumed that this would qualify as parity as well.
Elwyn wrote:
I never got orientation parity and i was thinking you couldn't, i did however run into permutation parity everything solved but two edges in the wrong spot. This is also what i ran into back on 1.1.19 and 1.1.18 are you sure you can get orientation parity in the form of a single flipped edge? Even if you can which i don't think is right you forgot to mention the two swapped pieces as i'm pretty sure you can't fix this viewtopic.php?p=210689#p210689 with three cycles
Yes, this is the case I'm having. Usually I fix it with a 3-cycle, but last night I was too tired to get it right :?
That is a position parity case in the edge pairs. If you treat the pairs as whole pieces then they are in an odd permutation and the aren't solvable. The individual components of the pairs are in an even permutation and can be solved with 3-cycles. You have to break up and re-form your pairs to do it though. Elwyn hit this case on 1.1.19 and Julian provided a quite compact fix back on page 34. The sequence of moves don't apply to 1.1.20 but the overall idea behind the fix is exactly the same.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sat Jul 10, 2010 3:57 pm 
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OK, I'll look into it. But as I said, I'll start my solve over again, so hopefully I won't get this case again :lol: I was planning on spending my day solving it, but social matters pulled me away. I might do it tonight, though.


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2010 9:51 pm 
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idk if Gelatin Brain is taking suggestion for more puzzles, but i thought a lattice dodecahedron would be pretty cool. it would look just like 1.1.20 but it would have two layers on the vertexes.


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2010 10:31 pm 
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boublez wrote:
idk if Gelatin Brain is taking suggestion for more puzzles, but i thought a lattice dodecahedron would be pretty cool. it would look just like 1.1.20 but it would have two layers on the vertexes.
It would be the master version of 1.2.1, right?

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 7:28 am 
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Quote:
It would be the master version of 1.2.1, right?

exactly!


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 9:46 am 
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Would also be fun to have some cuboids, like the 3x3x4 etc :D


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 1:45 pm 
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Also, concerning 1.1.20. I got this far before Java shut down:
Attachment:
Prosjekt 1.1.20 Så langt eg kom før JAVA klikka.jpg
Prosjekt 1.1.20 Så langt eg kom før JAVA klikka.jpg [ 79.13 KiB | Viewed 3961 times ]
I got so mad. But I do believe I know how to solve it now, as I constructed a (4,1) commutator to move the diamond pieces. I tried using a (3,1) commutator at first, but I never perfected it to be good enough, so I found that I could much more easily use a (4,1). But I actually didn't get a chance to perfect that one either, due to the Java thing. But it still worked better than the other ways I tried doing it. But all though I know how to solve it, it's still gonna take me a long time to do. So for now, I'm giving it a break. Might try some other applets though.


Last edited by Katja on Sun Jul 25, 2010 6:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 5:27 pm 
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boublez wrote:
Quote:
It would be the master version of 1.2.1, right?

exactly!


Choose 1.2.16 from the menu.
To tell you the truth, I don't like shallow cut puzzles. But why not... 8-)

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 8:43 pm 
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gelatinbrain wrote:
Choose 1.2.16 from the menu.


are you implying that it is there? i dont think so because i dont see it anywhere


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 9:29 pm 
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load any puzzle, and go to FILE in the top left of the applet.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 10:44 pm 
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that you for the puzzle gelatin brain it was fun.

thank you vdude. i never notice that file button before. :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 10:07 am 
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I just solved 1.2.1, it was a lot more annoying than hard. As I always ended up with only two pieces swapped. But I figured it out. Also I've been giving solving new applets a rest for a while, but I have a week off work now, so I think I'll be able to spend more time doing so. Meaning I'll finish 1.1.20 once and for all! I did solve almost all of it. I only had 3 trapezoids left, but once again, my computer decided to give me a hard time, and shut down :(

Also, Elwyn, if you see this, how did your solution method for 1.1.17 work out? Did you manage to solve it like a Megaminx?


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 10:14 am 
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Katten wrote:
Also, Elwyn, if you see this, how did your solution method for 1.1.17 work out? Did you manage to solve it like a Megaminx?
Well as the records page shows i haven't actually gotten around to doing 1.1.17 yet... I did have a little bit of a twist but only got 7 corners grouped (just the 2 colour pieces) and decided it was going to take way too long and i'd have to really be ready for a LONG solve. I did however get the super megaminx fewest moves record to go with my megaminx one. And improved my megaminx, super megaminx, pyraminx crystal times and much improved my 1.1.5 move count, i think i could possibly beat Michaels with a couple more tries.
bmenrigh wrote:
I feel your pain. Time and moves aren't my thing either as is evident from the records page.
First time i solved a gigaminx was on gelatinbrain, it took over three hours and i don't want to even guess at how many moves. Fewest moves just takes a little practice and a lot of patience or if your lucky seeing a puzzle in a different way to other people. I think you should solve 1.3.7 (similar to 1.3.6) and try to beat Michael's move count, or try to get a good megaminx or gigaminx count. I know you can come up with short algs and methods and that is the difficult part.
bmenrigh wrote:
Edit: or in 8 moves via [F], [C2,G'2,C2], [F'], [C'2,G2,C'2]
That really is a nice way to do it and can be adapted to adjacent edges with only an extra 2 moves

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 5:45 pm 
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Yeah, though your method for 1.1.17 looks like it will definitely work well, it doesn't surprise me that it will take some time to execute.
Elwyn wrote:
First time i solved a gigaminx was on gelatinbrain, it took over three hours and i don't want to even guess at how many moves. Fewest moves just takes a little practice and a lot of patience or if your lucky seeing a puzzle in a different way to other people. I think you should solve 1.3.7 (similar to 1.3.6) and try to beat Michael's move count, or try to get a good megaminx or gigaminx count. I know you can come up with short algs and methods and that is the difficult part
My first Gigaminx solve was on gelatinbrain as well. I spent 2 hours and 7 seconds and used 1926 moves. I can solve it a lot faster now. My record with my non-virtual C4Y one is 21 minutes, though my move count haven't improved enough to make it on the record list yet.

But speaking of the record list, I just got a sub-300 Megaminx solve (I think my move count was 268), which means i accomplished my goal on at least making in on the list. I know, sub-300 is not all that impressive compared to the other move counts on that list, but it's a huge accomplishment for me, as both Megaminx and fewest moves as possible are two things I'm quite bad at, and never really practice. Maybe with a bit of practice I'll be able to sub-200 it :D


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 6:09 pm 
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Hi, Gelatin Brain,

Today I tried to solve 3.9.2c. I think I have solved the puzzle but it
is not recognized by the applet. I solved the puzzle so that all the
external and internal pieces are correctly placed. Can you explain why it happens?
Please see attached
two screenshots of the state that I have reached.
Attachment:
screen_392c.PNG
screen_392c.PNG [ 114.04 KiB | Viewed 3805 times ]

The above screenshort shows the external appearance of it. In order to show the internal
pieces, I applied

RFU',FUR2,

to the puzzle and I get the following screenshot.
Attachment:
screen_392c_internal.PNG
screen_392c_internal.PNG [ 114.44 KiB | Viewed 3805 times ]


You can verify
that it has the correct pattern. Let me know if there indeed is anything left unsolved.

Since this solve is not recognized, I
don't know what to do except taking these screenshots and close it.
Can you check the criterion of this puzzle being solved? You may
notice that in this puzzle, there are many completely identical
pieces. All 64 pieces can be grouped into 16 groups. Each group
contains 4 identical pieces. I don't know whether this fact caused a
mistake in defining the solved status.

Also, I would greatly appreciate it if you consider my solve as a valid
one and put it into the statistics. I did this on July 28th, 2010. It
took me 2:20:40, and 14222 moves, as you can see in the screen shots.
Thanks.

Schuma


Last edited by schuma on Thu Jul 29, 2010 3:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 1:08 pm 
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Attachment:
Prosjekt 1.1.20 LØST.jpg
Prosjekt 1.1.20 LØST.jpg [ 78.94 KiB | Viewed 3785 times ]
Finally solved :D Once again I left my computer on to avoid having to do it all over, but I think the actual solving time is about 5 hours. There were some minor changes (in bold) to my soltuion compared to the one I posted in one of my above posts:

1. Pair edges
2. Place edges onto their correct face, like on a Pyraminx Crystal
2.5. Solve permutation parity by splitting up the two pairs effected and re-pair them correctly
3. Solve center pentagons
4. Solve triangle pieces, like on 1.1.4/1.1.5
5. Solve diamond pieces using a (1,1) commutator at first, then switching to a (3,1)
6. Solve the trapezoids

And also I added a step 2.5 as all the 4 times I've paired up the edges, I've gotten the permutation parity.


Last edited by Katja on Mon Sep 20, 2010 4:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 8:57 am 
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I have a simple question regarding 4.1.2: are we not supposed to be able to do slice moves on it or am I the only one who can't do it?


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 9:38 am 
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Katten wrote:
I have a simple question regarding 4.1.2: are we not supposed to be able to do slice moves on it or am I the only one who can't do it?


I cannot do slice moves either, which is annoying. In order to do a slice move, I will rotate the whole thing and rotate outer layers back.


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 10:53 am 
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Katten wrote:
I have a simple question regarding 4.1.2: are we not supposed to be able to do slice moves on it or am I the only one who can't do it?

That drove me crazy my first solve too. Then when I got to the Dino Octa I realized you could 3-cycle the triangle pieces by commutating a face move instead of a slice move:

UFL',
[ULB,URF,ULB',URF]x2,
UFL,

This way you don't have to reorient the puzzle constantly.

Great job on 1.1.20, if you have the patience and persistence for that beast you'll be able to solve almost any puzzle here.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 4:41 pm 
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schuma wrote:
In order to do a slice move, I will rotate the whole thing and rotate outer layers back.
That's what I did at first as well, but since I'm so used to doing slice moves, it got so confusing and annoying that I never bothered to finish it.
bmenrigh wrote:
That drove me crazy my first solve too. Then when I got to the Dino Octa I realized you could 3-cycle the triangle pieces by commutating a face move instead of a slice move:

UFL',
[ULB,URF,ULB',URF]x2,
UFL,

This way you don't have to reorient the puzzle constantly.
I will try this when I attempt another solve, thanks! I bet it will be a lot less annoying then having to reorient the puzzle all the time, as I previously used slice moves to cycle those triangle pieces.
bmenrigh wrote:
Great job on 1.1.20, if you have the patience and persistence for that beast you'll be able to solve almost any puzzle here.
Thank you :D We'll have to wait and see about that, as I'm still nowhere near a solution to for instants the Pentultimate. I've managed to almost complete the six bottom faces, but after that I'm incredibly stuck :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 8:46 am 
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1.1.20
Katten wrote:
Finally solved
Nice work!

Back when you were asking what puzzles to solve next i completely forgot about 1.1.19, similar to 1.1.8 and 1.1.18 but i'd say much easier then either. It is one of my favourite puzzles on the site and can be solved relatively quickly (in comparison to 1.1.20 most puzzles could be solved quickly i'd say). Don't let my 1:38:21 time put you off that was for fewest moves, i just solved it again in 20:31 taking the record and that was with getting parity which took a couple of minutes to fix.

As for the dino-octa and FTO i use reduction to octaminx and hence don't need slice moves :)

Pentultimate
katten wrote:
I've managed to almost complete the six bottom faces, but after that I'm incredibly stuck
I wouldn't bother trying to get any but the first 5 corners around the bottom face before doing all the centres, but after the centres it really gets hard.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 12:56 pm 
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Elwyn wrote:
Back when you were asking what puzzles to solve next i completely forgot about 1.1.19, similar to 1.1.8 and 1.1.18 but i'd say much easier then either.
Already after a brief inspection of the puzzle, I wouldn't think it's going to be too difficult. Also I've already created a simple outline of how I will attempt to solve it:

1. Pair up the necessary pieces to create Megaminx edges (photo: blue-yellow edge)
2. Solve centers
3. Solve as Megaminx
Attachment:
Prosjekt 1.1.19 illustrasjon.jpg
Prosjekt 1.1.19 illustrasjon.jpg [ 65.04 KiB | Viewed 3628 times ]
But - if I'm not mistaken, I believe I could get a permutation parity on this one, right? I haven't thought of any smart way to solve that yet, but I think I'll work my way around it if it occurs (my solutions are never smart or efficient, but they still tend to work out some how :lol:).
Elwyn wrote:
As for the dino-octa and FTO i use reduction to octaminx and hence don't need slice moves
I've actually thought about doing it that way myself, but I guess I got to lazy to ever try it out. Maybe I'll do it one time I'm super bored or something, just for the fun of it. You're probably gonna laugh at me now, but before now I didn't even know what an octaminx was.
Elwyn wrote:
I wouldn't bother trying to get any but the first 5 corners around the bottom face before doing all the centres, but after the centres it really gets hard.
I even gets harder? Wow, I have some real work to do if I want to finish this, huh? :shock:


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 11:30 pm 
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Katten wrote:
a simple outline of how I will attempt to solve it:
I solve it centres first, your way is possible but the only way i can find to swap centres takes 84 moves just to do a 2-2 swap... easier to pair the edges whilst preserving centres i'd say.
Katten wrote:
But - if I'm not mistaken, I believe I could get a permutation parity on this one, right?
Elwyn wrote:
i just solved it again in 20:31 taking the record and that was with getting parity which took a couple of minutes to fix.
As i said last post it does get parity but it's easy to understand and fix, if you don't include the moves it took to re-solve part of the megaminx parity took me 17 moves.
Katten wrote:
You're probably gonna laugh at me now, but before now I didn't even know what an octaminx was.
I don't see why i should, until a year and a half ago i didn't know there was such a thing as a 4x4x4 or megaminx or any twisty-puzzle but the Rubik's cube and i sure didn't know how to solve it. Though i am a little confused at how you planned to try reduction to octaminx without knowing what an octaminx even is?

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 2:23 am 
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Elwyn wrote:
I solve it centres first, your way is possible but the only way i can find to swap centres takes 84 moves just to do a 2-2 swap... easier to pair the edges whilst preserving centres i'd say.
Well, I figured out that I could just 3-cycle the centers the same way as on 1.1.4/1.1.5/1.1.20, but it does require me to do a lot of moves to place them all, and it won't only effect the centers, as I will have to use slice moves to do it, it will also swap a bunch of other pieces, which I just realized would also break up the paired Megaminx edges :oops: This will also happen even if I turn the outer layer with the sliced move. Arrhg, I though for a second there that I'd come up with something smart, but you are completely right, step 1 and 2 should be reversed for the simplicity of it. Thanks :D
Elwyn wrote:
Though i am a little confused at how you planned to try reduction to octaminx without knowing what an octaminx even is?
I searched for it on Google right after reading your post, but before I knew what it was, I've been speculation about doing it that way without knowing what I would reduce it to if I did. Sorry for the added confusion, I tend to be rather short in explaining my reasoning sometimes :lol:

Also, I just discovered 1.1.39, which almost made me jump up and down of excitement. I have been looking for a puzzle similar to that one on Gelatin Brain, but I completely overlooked that one so far, but now my eyes are fixed on it, and I'm really looking forward to solving it :D


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 3:48 am 
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Katten wrote:
Also, I just discovered 1.1.39, which almost made me jump up and down of excitement. I have been looking for a puzzle similar to that one on Gelatin Brain, but I completely overlooked that one so far, but now my eyes are fixed on it, and I'm really looking forward to solving it :D
I loved 1.1.39 but I really recommend you do 1.1.8 first. The trapezoids under the corners on 1.1.39 are similar to The wide triangles on 1.1.8. Also note that 1.1.39 has CTRL+click.

Finally, I suggest Sjeord's reduction to Pyraminx Crystal idea. My method took so long. If you can see the 1.1.3 in it easily it will save you a ton of time.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 6:57 am 
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bmenrigh wrote:
Also note that 1.1.39 has CTRL+click.
Oh, that I hadn't noticed, thanks a lot!
bmenrigh wrote:
Finally, I suggest Sjeord's reduction to Pyraminx Crystal idea. My method took so long. If you can see the 1.1.3 in it easily it will save you a ton of time
Yes, I actually saw that right away, which is one of the reasons I'm so excited about it. So I will of course reduce it to a PC, which I think I will figure out how to do without any major problems. But out of curiosity, how did you solve it if you didn't use that method?

EDIT: so for now, this is the planed order (taking yours and Elwyn's suggestions into account) for my next applets, all leading up to 1.1.39:
1.1.19 as this is suggested to be easier than 1.1.8
1.1.8 as this is helpful to solve 1.1.39
1.1.39 which I think will be a lot of fun :D


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Tue Aug 10, 2010 3:58 pm 
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Recently I've been working on the 6.1.2 series. Although 6.1.2 was successfully solved and recognized by the applet, I had some problems with 6.1.2b and 6.1.2c. I have solved these two puzzles to the states as shown in the following screenshots.
Attachment:
File comment: 6.1.2b
612b_solved_small.PNG
612b_solved_small.PNG [ 22.77 KiB | Viewed 3542 times ]

Attachment:
File comment: 6.1.2c
612c_solved_small.PNG
612c_solved_small.PNG [ 23.65 KiB | Viewed 3542 times ]


I cannot find any difference between them and the "solved states". But they were just not recognized by the applet. I remember Elwyn had a similar problem. But eventually he found that the cuts were not aligned. It seems to me that in my case, the cuts are aligned. Does anyone here find anything wrong in my solve? Thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Tue Aug 10, 2010 6:51 pm 
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They look solved to me and the fact your name is on the scoreboard for them makes me confused as to what the problem is? Perhaps it was a bug and gelatinbrain submitted the records manualy for you.
Also appart from the three 6.2.1 spheres there are apparently 2 puzzles you haven't solved (from the puzzles solved records you are at 279/284)and i was wondering what they are. Not long now till you finish which is beyond an amazing achievement. What will you do then :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Tue Aug 10, 2010 8:30 pm 
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Elwyn wrote:
They look solved to me and the fact your name is on the scoreboard for them makes me confused as to what the problem is? Perhaps it was a bug and gelatinbrain submitted the records manualy for you.
Also appart from the three 6.2.1 spheres there are apparently 2 puzzles you haven't solved (from the puzzles solved records you are at 279/284)and i was wondering what they are. Not long now till you finish which is beyond an amazing achievement. What will you do then :lol:


Gelatinbrain has seen my emails and has manually registered these solves. I really appreciate it.

So I need to solve three 6.2.1 puzzles, and two hidden puzzles. The mystic hidden puzzles are spheres. You can access them as follows: (1) open any other puzzle, (2) open the file menu and go to the sphere section, (3) under 6.2.1c, there are two empty lines. These two empty lines are the two unnamed puzzles, which are even not yet numbered. I know these two puzzles for several months but I have never tried to solve them.

I haven't figured out the algorithms for the 6.2.1 series and the two hidden puzzles. But it seems that 6.2.1 is a 8-axis (octahedral) version of 6.1.2. You can establish a correspondence between the pieces in 6.2.1 and those in 6.1.2. The two hidden puzzles are 4-axis (tetrahedral) version of 6.1.2. Given the similarity between these puzzles and the fact that you have solved 6.2.1 spheres, I'm pretty sure that you can easily solve 6.1.2 and the two hidden spheres.


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Tue Aug 10, 2010 11:36 pm 
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They look pretty solved to me too, but I guess that's not an issue anymore since you're on the record page. Also, 5 applets left? :shock: You should be given a diploma or a price or something when you finish them all!


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 1:55 pm 
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Finally, finally, I have solved all 284/284 puzzles. I made a diploma for myself for graduating from Gelatin Brain University.
Attachment:
diploma.jpg
diploma.jpg [ 76.33 KiB | Viewed 3472 times ]

According to GB's record page, the total solving time is at least 163 hours, which does not include preparing time before I hit the scramble button. Now I can have a good sleep. Wake me up if GB adds some new puzzles.


Last edited by schuma on Thu Aug 12, 2010 2:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 2:11 pm 
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Congratulations, man! What an accomplishment!

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 2:18 pm 
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schuma wrote:
Finally, finally, I have solved all 284/284 puzzles. I made a diploma for myself for graduating from Gelatin Brain University.
... diploma snipped ...
Now I can have a good sleep. Wake me up if GB adds some new puzzles.

Amazing, Congratulations!

We're (well, me :wink: ) relying on you to share your thoughts on the spheres! My summer classes are almost done and I'm finally graduating so I can't wait to catch up :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 3:37 pm 
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Congratulations! :D Nice diploma. I wonder how many others will actually finish them all?
bmenrigh wrote:
My summer classes are almost done and I'm finally graduating so I can't wait to catch up
Almost the complete opposite is happening to me: I just started university and barely have no time to do anything besides it :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 5:52 pm 
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schuma wrote:
Finally, finally, I have solved all 284/284 puzzles.
I haven't posted here in a while, but I just had to jump on when I saw this, to say:

Congratulations!

That is a great achievement.

(I've been catching up with this thread from time to time, enjoying your updates on tricky puzzles that I'm not sure I'll ever be able to solve, like the cube-within-cubes and spheres, and Elwyn's clever new 1.1.17 and 1.1.20 solutions. Next month I hope to get back to solving again.)


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