On one of my yoyo forums they have a system that greatly helps with the process of trading/selling. On your profile you have a Feedback page. When you finish a trade or sale, the other party gets to leave either positive, neutral, or negative feedback as well as leaving a comment and trade description. Your feedback number also gets displayed next to your name when you post. This system has greatly improved how I do personal sales/trades online. This system lets you see exactly what reputation the other person has. Here is a link to my feedback page on YoyoExpert.com for example:

http://yoyoexpert.com/forums/index.php? ... er&id=2537

Mabye this system could be utilised when the next upgrade rolls around?

-Pat!

I'm not sure if I would like this exact system, but I love the concept. As a new puzzle designer without a reputation, it would be nice for people to know I put lots of work into all of my puzzles to make them beyond belief.

That does sound nice!!

Make it happen!!

-Chris-

With the puzzles you're about to reveal, you'll earn reputation faster than Incredible did.

I agree partially with PuzzleMaster6262. If I have not made a single puzzle, then I haven't sold a single puzzle. But with a point system like this, I'd have 0 points and therefore have the worst possible reputation for when I do start selling.

-When you buy you get feedback as well for being a reliable payer, so both parties get feedback.

- This system is just for building a trade rep and not necessarily showing how great your puzzles are.

- On yoyoexpert.com, we have a policy where the person with lower feedback sends first in a trade

- 0 feedback just means you haven't traded before, when you have a negative count then you have issues

I personally think it's a good idea. I'd like to see it come into effect shortly.

Made an attempt to implement this today. Didn't quite pan out as some of my tests went wonky. I suspect it's actually just a problem/difference with my test environment, and rather than spend any more time trying to fix that, I'm ready to go ahead and try it out online. Not tonight though, I'm running well short of a good night's sleep already. Tomorrow evening is another day.

Sandy

Wow great news Sandy! Thanks!!!

- Greg

The install was a bit of a comedy of errors, but it's up and running now. It looks pretty decent to me. Members can add just one feedback for any other member (preventing friends inflating each other's scores). You can always edit or delete the feedback you have left for others.

I also rearranged the menu bar a little bit, sorting things into two lines: personal stuff on the top line, and general stuff on the bottom line.

If anything looks out of place, PM or e-mail me.

Sandy

I'm really liking the feedback thing! It would surely be a great addition to the forum providing it isn't abused!

Thanks,
Ben

How do you handle the abuse? Is this going to have to be an honor system?

WOW I'm actually REALLY suprised you guys decided to use this!

I'm sure this will make buying/selling/trading much easier and safer


what if someone buys from a person twice?

I really like this new system, I just hope no one abuses it.Also why can't I view it unless I'm logged in.

now I need to find everyone I've ever done business with and leave them feedback ahahah

I try to indicate if I've dealt with someone more than once, for example a feedback I just left:



I posted the question in the wrong thread and deleted that post after I read that feedback can only be left once.

Ben

Thanks for the update, Sandy!

I only have one question: is the role supposed to be the role of the person leaving feedback, or the role of the person who you are leaving feedback for?

When a sale/trade is completed, both people leave feedback indicating what role they were and how the trade went. Neutral and negative are reserved for when the item was not to the description. was damages, or just never came

That's interesting.

I interpreted it as what the role of the person you're leaving feedback for was. Perhaps some ground rules or a sticky clarifying the information would be helpful.

Ben

I think I should wirite a tutorial for using the feedback system since I know most about it. Mods, tell me what you think

Where is this feedback thing at? I can"t find it.

Top of the page in the control bar where you find your name and access to the UCP.

Look to your left.

I'm not sure how the system can be abused, at least not much. Each member can only leave one feedback per other member, and yes, honesty is assumed. Does that cover the possible abuse you were envisioning?



Compile it all in one feedback. You can always edit the feedback you've left. So the maximum amount of feedback a member can have is equal to the number of forum members.



It's the role of the person you're leaving feedback FOR, not your role. When you visit a member's feedback page, you can choose to view only those feedback where the person was the buyer, for example. Any feedback on his page that has buyer in the role field will be shown.



By all means! If you're not 100% sure of the technical details of the TwistyPuzzles implemention of this feedback system, just e-mail your tutorial to me before posting it online and I'll send you back a corrected version.

Sandy

I'll get on that tomorrow, it's getting late

I'm really glad I was able to contribute this idea to better the forums!

I guess it'd be impossible to enforce that a transaction is actually made when feedback is left.

(A bit off topic, technically the maximum is 1866, not 1867. It's total members minus one. That doesn't matter though because some members won't be coming back.)

Like with other things on the forum if you have a problem with a member you can't resolve privately you can go to a moderator or admin as a next step.

Clearly we don't want to be the ones policing transactions, but if you feel you are being harassed it would probably be covered under rules #6 and #8.

Note that harassment is different from just receiving feedback you don't like. Given the recent spat of bad transactions we do expect some of that will be reported and was earned. Like with eBay I think this will be strong motivator for people to make sure they don't get a bad reputation where before they may have slid by.


Sandy: Currently you can't get to adding feedback for a member from their profile page, and the feedback drop down it shows is blank.
My work around is to search for a post of theirs and access it from that post.
Also, is it possible for the buyer/seller/trade to be a checkbox instead of a radio button? For many members I have bought, traded and sold with them. With only one chance to add feedback I have to choose only one.

Dave

At the top of the page near "User Control Panel" and "Search" there is "Member Feedback". You can search for members to get to their feedback page.

Is this for sales made through the forum or for sales outside it also?
I believe it should only be those made on the forum directly. If disputes arise then outside the forum is not in the jurisdiction of Admin and mods (no offence). Attitudes towards delayed mail for example can be the difference between good feedback and bad so this is certainly not a straightforward thing to moderate.

I suppose I should have been more clear regarding moderator involvement: It is only our place to get involved if the comments in the feedback system violate our rules.
If, based on a transaction, someone says your puzzle was a piece of junk and you were rude I consider that none of our business as I can't well verify the accuracy and the descriptions are not personally offensive. But if the content of their feedback is offensive we can't have that regardless of the accuracy. So if you need to leave negative feedback for someone try to be accurate and not offensive. This is not a venue for venting your emotions, this is a way of sharing information with the community.

One of the nice things about this feedback system is that you can edit your feedback and correct things if their was a snag that led to a misunderstanding. I would hope all parties would be prudent but flexible, but in the event someone jumps the gun at least it can be corrected.

Dave

Just for clarification:
When I want to give feedback, something like this shows up

Should I describe under "Role" my own role or that of the person I want to provide feedback to?
My assumption is the latter, but I think, it is not completely clear. I could not find a description. Maybe, it is obvious to anybody? A clarification wouldn't hurt, though.

BTW, Garrett is just an example and my feedback has been definitely "positive" .

- Read this post above, third question answered

Yeah, as expected. Thanks! (I made a search here for "buyer" and "seller", but not for "role")

@Sandy: Would it be possible to get a list of feedbacks a member has given?
So far, I could find the feedbacks received, only.
It would help finding out how valuable the statement of a member is, when I can see other feedbacks of the same person.

Since you guys all seem to like this I will keep this brief and not get into arguments.
However, I am totally against this and want no part of it. Please remove my name from the list. If that means I can't use the market place forum then so be it.

May we ask why? I think it is a great system for ensuring safe trading/selling. I'm interested in hearing your opinion on what the flaws are.

I too would like to hear Tony's reasons, I think he could give his opinion without an argument from others. If there's a good reason to not have this, it would benefit us all to know why.

I am really annoyed about getting feedbacks (although positive and really meant in a friendly way - no offense at all to the guys who gave me such a feedback)
suddenly WITHOUT notice before. I mean PM/email, not a thread!!

This is - well it is a forum for hobbyists - anyway unprofessional, unpleasant.

I am not pleased with this although I (hopefully) don't have to fear any results.
Maybe I will return to the forum sometime later. I guess I am not a great loss.

Have a good time

Frank

I never realized that it might be better to contact the person before leaving feedback for them. Being used to eBay, I thought that it would be OK to leave feedback for the other party as they might be 'expecting' it.

I left about a dozen feedback last night for other members I've dealt with during my time here at TwistyPuzzles, and I apologize if it was bad etiquette on my part to not first contact them.



While I can't speak for the entire forum, I personally think that you will be a great loss to the forum. I've always enjoyed reading your posts. We've already lost quite a few notable people and I hope we won't be losing more.



I'm not sure if Wayne has any power to just erase one person from the list, but if your feedback score is 0, then your name would not be on the feedback list. I've removed my feedback for you to help the process. Sorry if it was bad etiquette on my part.

Ben

I like the concept of a feedback system but don't like this setup. I think the points should be removed and each person should only have comments about them, along with their own response comments to each comment. The reason why I would like this system better is because it shows the persons character. If a buyer leaves a negative comment and the seller responds trying to resolve the issues, it shows a better seller then one that responds harshly at the buyer. I understand this system has many many problems with it but I hope something like it can be worked out.

Hi guys,

it seems that some people want to be more discreet than others,
and for some of us, privacy is of out-most importance.
(and that includes the case where there are only positive comments!)

Myself, I do not mind this system, but I also believe that all of us
should feel comfortable here. Therefore, each of us should be given
an option to have it or not. And just like there are good and bad sellers,
there are good and bad buyers, who can make things complicated
in an unnecessarily way.

I also agree that we recently had a situation where someone tried to
profit from this forum (and I was in the middle of this storm, and was
probably facing more losses than all others!). But this is usually more
of a personal issue and how we handle it ourselves. E.g. I had some
good experience from PayPal in the past, even before this, while I
reacted early enough to avoid any losses.

Now, if someone has doubts about someone (buyer or seller), some
long term forum members may surely vouch for him/her. Just ask or PM!
(for example people like Geert, Rox, Dave, Hidetoshi, Jason, Darren,
Sandy are some of the best to make a trade, no questions asked! LOL).

Just my two cents.



Pantazis

I must admit I was surprised (perhaps even slightly irritated) to find my name on such a feedback rating system without having been asked explicit permission: I always assumed this would be a kind of opt-in system, where I have the choice to participate or not, but never mandatory. In fact I prefer direct feedback (either PM or on my own thread, I don't mind), because then people are giving personal feedback directly to me (and therefore feel more accountable for it), rather than to an impersonal IT system.

Like others have said, this has nothing to do with the nature of any feedback: I would much rather have negative/critical feedback than no feedback at all, so that I can do something about it. It's more a question of the process, and how to implement such a system for those who want it, while maintaining freedom, choice and privacy rights for those who don't.

It should be very easy to set up such an opt-in pool, where anyone who opts in can give and get feedback for/from anyone else who has opted in, but automatically including all members in this pool without permission has clearly upset and annoyed some people.

Just my thoughts.

I thought this was just me but pleased to see others agree. I am only putting my reasons here because some of you asked-

1. Rating each other in such a way on an informal friendly community like this is very unhealthy and will lead to ill feeling among members. Just wait until the negs start. You Mods have no idea what you are letting yourself in for.
2. EBay has a well worked out system where there is a right to reply, various appeal options and proof that a transaction actually took place. This system has none of that.
3. When you sign up for eBay you know what you are letting yourself in for and you also know that professional experienced people are going to deal with disputes. That is not the case here.
4. Recent threads suggest that a minority of members on this forum can be highly impatient (numerous V-Cube threads), quick to condemn (threads about launching PayPal disputes and Mefferts etc ) and young and inexperienced in the ways of the world. That is all fine and I am not criticising them for being young but when my puzzle posted to one of them is delayed by 2 days what will they be doing to my feedback? Yes it can be changed but this is just another hassle to sort out.
5. A lot of the feedback currently given is for past transactions. How can that be right?
6. Any transaction made outside the forum has nothing to do with the forum anyway.
7. There are malicious people out there who do things just for the fun of it. This feedback system is open to all kinds of abuse.

I haven't actually seen much written about this feedback thing on the forum so there may be some minor errors in point 2.

The Scott situation was handled really well. Initially his name was kept quiet but eventually it had to be revealed. This is how things should be done on a friendly forum.
Like I say I am not interested in arguments or even discussions since this is a personal thing and to be honest I am not that bothered how other people think. If everyone else agrees then fine but just leave me out. If membership of this forum is conditional on my name being on that list though then I regret that I won't be staying.
Anyone wishing to see my feedback can see it here and here.
To Admin and the team, you do a great job but this is not for me.

Thanks Tony, I was also pretty concerned about the whole thing, mostly because of your first reason.

I definitely agree with Tony's point #5. I just can’t consider it fair to assign any feedback to any transaction (good or bad) that took place before the system was put in place.

I think feedback should not be posted until both members have agreed through some system that a transaction did happen to avoid abuse. As in you get a message saying for instance "Kuhrik would like to confirm your puzzle transaction and post feedback" something like this to avoid fake feedback.

Here's an even simpler solution: get rid of this impersonal one-way mathematical rating system and simply create a new forum called "Trader/Seller Feedback". Then each member can (only if they want it) create their own personal feedback thread. That way everyone has the chance to respond to any feedback given in their thread, and can be judged not only on the feedback itself, but on the way they deal with it. I believe this would be a much more friendly approach, in line with the existing and intended spirit of the community. This would be incredibly simple to set up and based on the same kind of two-way human interaction that makes the forum so successful in the first place.

It's good to be human - let's keep it that way.

I really like Kelvin Stott's idea Plus if someone didn't want to participate, they could just not make their thread.

Sounds good.

I swear I saw this idea posted in a thread like this one. I agree with this idea much more, because then I and many other forum members won't have the big fat 0 by their names. As someone who does not but wishes to make puzzles, I like the idea of waiting before having the comparasion to others.

Tony is right. No matter the system, it's not right to leave feedback for past trades/sells. It only makes sense to go from now on.

Interesting. Sandy implemented this based on requests and an attempt to address situations that have been cropping up (Scott isn't the only one).

I think this needs to be hashed out of course and welcome the feedback everyone is providing. For those thinking of leaving the forum over such issues do please realize that we do value your feedback and of course will take it into consideration. Such measures aren't necessary to get our attention and please keep in mind that Sandy is pretty busy and I don't know how much of this thread he has read.

This all happened pretty fast and so give it some time to be evaluated. I can definitely understand the concerns about negative feedback and the possible consequences.
I am not sure a forum devoted to feedback would be necessarily different except for allowing more than one feedback per post. And any problems with negative feedback would fall in my lap no less than for the current feedback system.

So the question is: Can we and should we have a feedback system? If so, in what form?

Not having any system has had the regrettable result of a lot of people getting swindled or greatly disappointed because people, left to their own devices, tend to be a bit too forgiving (I'll put myself in this category) to the detriment of other victims. I understand some feel this is the lesser of two evils and I don't have a firm opinion on it yet.

Regarding past trades: If we are to have a system it is for to benefit others who might deal with a buyer/seller/trader. Old information is no less valid than new in this respect so I am puzzled by people feeling an arbitrary start date of now is important. Is the idea that people weren't expected to be honest before because they didn't think people would comment on it? And therefore it is acceptable?

In my opinion people will talk about their experiences with others. The discretion with which they do so will vary, but the Scott thread shows that at a certain point (too late in this case) feedback will be conveyed in public. Positive feedback already exists all over the forum. This system was meant to formalize that as a benefit to the community, but unintended costs are important to consider.

I imagine Sandy will weigh in when he has read this thread and given it some consideration.

Dave