I ordered a new V-Cube like 4x4 a few days ago, after reading countless claims that it was not a KO of the V Cube mechanism, but shared some similarities. However, after watching Monkeydude1313's latest video, it looks (to me) very close to the V-Mech.

So, from any of you who own one, have seen one in real life, or are otherwise sure- is this a KO or not? (It should be coming in today or tomorrow, I'll post mech pictures after it arrives.)

I don't have a v6, but how does that keep the hidden internal layers from mixing up?

I'm pretty sure that the only thing different on this 4x4x4 is how the hidden layers stay in their proper spot.

They could have a cubie attached to the core like the eastsheen mech. V-cube mech with a cubie attached to the core - why didn't v-cube think of that?

That's why Verdes couldn't do it. It's in the ES patent and it's protected.

Eastsheens don't have a cubie attached to the core. They have an internal cube fused within the core. Except for the centers, no pieces are connected to the core.

I do think it is a KO. For 2 of the axises, they molded two of the inner pieces to the core, the modification I came up with. For the last axis, they did use something similar to the Eastsheen. The smaller inner pieces have plastic that goes past the larger inner pieces & hits 1 of 2 bump thingies. Since these bumps only affect the inner centers, & not the inner edges, it keeps the inner layer in alignment.

But other then that, the rest of the pieces are copied from the V-Cube mechanism. & the V-Cube patent clearly covers a 4x4:
http://www.v-cubes.com/pdf/European_patent.pdf
(Page 26-29 has figures of the 4x4.)

Pantazis, (kastellorizo) said he'll be talking to Verdes's son about this cube & many other things. As soon as I hear back from him, I'll make a video explaining the problem with this cube & many other V-Cube KO's. (The word about them has spread enough already that I shouldn't be making any more damage.)

That's correct and I doubt you could patent such a basic thing as "cubie attached to core" anyway.

Oh no. I got so exited when I heard about this cube, but now it might actually be a KO? Yeah, that's what I think as well, when I watched the video just now. I was going to buy one of these, but I'll put it on hold until someone gives the final verdict.

I somehow got the image in my head when I purchased this cube that it only had the V Cube mech on the outer layers. This is far from true. The more I play with this cube, the more it feels like a knockoff. One note: I'm not quite sure how, but this cube fails to ever come out of alignment. I do know that it has been "modified," in this sense, but I'm not quite sure how. I doubt this minor adjustment would make it exempt from the V-Cube patent.

I read it wrong. I missed the i in cubie, and thought it said cube.

Either way, the post says LIKE THE EASTSHEEN MECH, so they were obviously talking about it.

I'm so disappointed. I was really looking forward to a new 4x4x4 that wasn't a KO and still of good quality. I guess we'll have to wait for t V-4 to come out then.

Yes there seems to be a problem with this puzzle, but the issue is now being
diverted from me to Verdes. I will follow this when I return to Australia.




Pantazis

KO!
All KO!!!

From what I know, this cube is EXTREMELY similar to v-cubes. They for the most part used a pi-mod and mass produced it. The thing you have to account for though, is that they're mech gets rid of the misalignment problem different than v-cubes.
just my thoughts

Doesn't it infringe the patent's individual parts? In Verdes' patent the pieces are clearly defined, and if the majority of pieces on this puzzle are identical to a V-Cube, is that an infringement?

This 4x4 is combined with ES, QJ and Vcube,even Meffert, because QJ is Rubiks' KO, so that can we called it SUPER KO?

Does this make it ethically wrong to buy this 4x4?

I mean, with all the v cube KOs these days, it may be years before we see a real v cube 4. With that said, if this 4x4 isn't a complete v cube KO, is it ethically just to purchase one?

The reason why v cubes will not make a 4x4x4 anytime soon is because people just buy puzzles like this instead of waiting.

So how long will we have to wait for a legit v cube 4?

When you think about it, consumers just want the highest quality product available, whether or not it's a KO. So people will continue to buy this 4x4 until it's quality is less than the competitor. And if the economics are as you say they are, then why hasn't the v cube company released the v cube 4 yet? Do you have any idea how many people are holding their breath to get one? Most likely a lot more people than those waiting for this 4x4. It just seems pointless to hold off for budget issues; the v cube 6, and 7 have already permuted the cube market as v cube exclusive-puzzles, and I don't think they will get much more successful than they are now. Waiting would just give the v cube company a bad rap and it would lower their statue as a new contender in the cubing market. They should release the v cube 4 while people are still hungry for it.

So yeah, I'm still waiting for the v cube 4.

If you cannot wait, and can purchase this puzzle without that guiltry conscience of hurting and postponing the official V-Cubes, there's nothing we can do to stop you. It is a matter of opinion whether you want to support the genius behind it or the KOs stealing the money.

Just some small and fast update. V-Cubes in Greece have already a copy
of this puzzle but I am not aware of their next step. If there is anything new
(release, news, etc) I will surely spit it out!

But remember, I am also busy, so it has to be combined with one of the
phone-chats with Greece. And besides the puzzles, there are also other
equally important issues which are part of our discussion.

Thanks for the patience.




Pantazis

That's not at all what I'm trying to say. I'm probably not gonna buy a 4x4 for a while, so I'm not getting this one. What I'm trying to say is, if the v cube company wants to regain lost ground taken by the KOs, they should counter it by releasing their own product. People aren't going to stop buying KOs, but the v cube company could be the bigger person by just releasing the v cube 4. Think about it: if the real product is on the market, the KOs will either vanish or become so hard to find it'll no longer affect the v cube company economically.

By introducing their 4x4, they could put an end to this. But as long as there's no real product to compete with the KOs, the latter will rule the market.

Pretty much how I feel about this. Especially the parts in bold. I don't think that the KO 7x7s and 6x6s do nearly as well as the other Vmech KOs just because the Vcubes are far superior. From what I have seen on Youtube and members here who are new (and dont yet know better), the "Knockoff" concept, and it's importance, is not yet well known. What people know is that one product is superior to the others. If Verdes releases a superior product, as he has done before, he will regain his share of the 4x4 market that was taken by the (now inferior) KO 4x4s.

Which is why it confuses me as to why he hasn't at least announced anything regarding it's release, or production news, or anything, as I'm sure any news would help.

Just my 2c.

I agree about that. Unless the date is a few years away, many members that buy KOs would be willing to wait for a v cube 4 if they knew how long to wait.

The difference (as stated many times before) between a legit company and a KO company
is that the legit company has to go through a *lot* more hurdles to produce a new product.
It is not easy, and obviously Verdes is much more frustrated than their buyers about it.

Please do not use arguments which have been said before. The best way is to be patient
(for God's sake, no buyer's life is depending on it) and always buy legit stuff (at least knowingly).

I won't go into this again, I was (and still am) hoping on some understanding. Thanks!




Pantazis

right now I think it's the indefinite wait that is putting people off. right now we have no idea whatsoever of when the new V-cubes are going to be released and most people are just unwilling to wait an undefined amount of time for a higher quality product, when there's already a highly satisfactory one on the market now. if V-cubes even gave us a vague hint (next month, next year, by the end of 2012. whatever. ) then at least we'll have something to look forward to. We'll be able to say, 'by the end of next year I'll have a V-cube 4/6b/8/whatever. right now it's more like 'I'll buy this 4x4 and hope that V-cubes comes out with one in the near future so I can replace it if I feel this 4x4 sucks. ' I myself love the V-cubes and I refuse to buy low-quality copies of their existing products. I also understand that they work very hard to create and publish these designs and than to make them a reality, and I respect them for that. however, with no competition (4x4x4, 9x9x9) are they really giving us a choice?

just my views,
sj

That's what I was thinking. Since the v cube company has given no news on their upcoming designs, it forces cubers to either wait indefinitely, buy a hq KO, or go back to old, proven designs of inferior quality. I played with a Rubik's brand 4x4 only a few days earlier this year, and the lockups were TERRIBLE. Yes, I was intrigued and deeply fascinated by it (I started cubing just this year) and it's difficulty, but the turning quality sucked. And if this company offers a hq 4x4 that resembles the v cube mech, and the v cube company won't say anything about their model, well then that forces cubers to buy the KO.

Trust me, when something of high quality is available, you buy it. You can't "wait", not when you have no clue on how long you have to wait. and given the situation, it seems reasonable to buy this one. Technically, the v cube company isn't in the 4x4 market, so that adds to the confusion.

Overall, I'd say the v cube company should keep their costumers more "in the know".

Your life does not depend on luxury items (in this case: puzzles), yet some act as if it did,
in order to give them an alibi to buy non-original puzzles.

And *that* is not a view.

Now I am done with this topic. It is really on the individual and how ethical he/she is.


I cannot force anyone to stop buying non-originals, the same way no one can force me to eat durians.




Pantazis

If you want perspective on this issue please take the time to read the forum back in time a bit. I don't have the time to find all the links but it is worth your time to read backwards in time for this issue and in general.

Verdes received no end of hassle for announcing the V-Cubes and then not being able to get them to market soon enough. I think the lesson was well learned that it is better to announce when you have the product to sell, not when you think you might have the product to sell. As with many ventures the actual time it takes is often far more than what you think it might be. So predictions can be dangerous.

I have said this many times but will repeat it again as it is faster to type than searching for a link:

As for why they don't produce it, that is their business and their business has suffered from illegal copies. It costs a lot of money to make molds, test, revision, produce, market and actually sell a puzzle. Costs KO companies avoid by skipping revisions (quality) and marketing. I don't know if you have 10s of thousands of dollars laying around to spend on something that may never make back the investment, but given how their existing line has been eaten by thieves perhaps you can understand why they might not have the cash to pour into this project, no matter how much you or another 4x4x4 speed cuber would like it.

Please believe they want this far more than you do. For you it is perhaps one or two puzzles. For them it is their business, their income, and many, many years of effort. If you can, perhaps loan them the money for a production and I am sure it would accelerate their plans. I don't think many will line up to do so because it doesn't mean that much to you or anyone else but the Verdes family. So you will have to wait for their product, and every impatient purchaser who doesn't value their business means those of us who are patient wait a bit more.

Regarding quality: Some people value it, but others do not. For many a KO V-Cube will be better than alternatives and that as long as the price is cheap that is good enough. If that weren't the case then the KO 7x7x7 would have no market.

You have to follow your own conscience on what you choose to purchase, but don't feel you can blame Verdes for your choice. You can't expect them to spend their life savings and business future because it might persuade you to change the source of the puzzle you buy. They will come out with their products as soon as it can make business sense for them to do so. Doing so sooner might please you and a few others could easily ruin them. I agree they are losing business to copiers because their planned version is not on the market. But one can't just make investment appear, one can't guarantee a profit, and it is rude to blame the victim.

Ultimately they are in the best position to understand that timing, where we can only guess. Presuming we know their business better than they know it themselves is pretty silly.

Dave

This brings up something I’ve had on my mind for a while concerning KOs. If this is not the appropriate place for this posting then perhaps it can be moved to the sticky KO thread. Also, I apologize ahead of time for once again bringing up KO issues.

In the world of patents it is not only allowed but actually encouraged for someone to take an existing patent and improve upon it. I do have a couple of non-puzzle related patents filed at a company that I used to work at. That company had a group who’s sole purpose was to file what we would call “side patents” to go along with our patented product. These would include what they considered to be variations to our product which a competitor may attempt to produce. It was a method that my previous company attempted to use to prevent competitors from making a similar product and get around our patents.

As everyone is aware this site’s KO policy differs from patent law as it covers puzzles which have expired patents as well as puzzles which have not been patented.

As stated above, this 4x4x4 is not a direct or complete KO of the V-Cubes 4x4x4 design. It is based off of it but has some significant changes when it comes to the method used to line up the hidden center layers.

So how much of a change is necessary before a puzzle is no longer considered a KO and who can judge this?

Another example for discussion is the variety if 3x3x3 DIYs available. Most of them (the Type A, Type B, etc) are KOs of Rubik’s Cubes, but what about the C4U one with capped edge pieces? My own opinion (and it’s just that, an opinion) is that it is still a KO. But then what about the new DaYan one which is so radically redesigned that it allows for automatic realignments from any direction? I have a hard time considering it to be a KO because it is just so different (once again, my own opinion). But where is that line between KO and new puzzle?

Perhaps verdes' current design for a 4x4 is inferior to this one, and they're working to improve it.

Still, they should at least let cubers know how long they have to wait for the v cube 4 if they expect customers to remain loyal to their product line. Even an estimate. Either way, I hope something comes through soon.

My first and second paragraphs above cover this point exactly. Please re-read them, and then take the time to read the forum from when the V-Cubes were announced and a few years of negative posting before that.

I am sure the answer for them is "As soon as possible". I don't know that they can predict when people will buy enough of their existing products to fund a V-4 (or any other of their line), so how can they give you an estimate that will do anything more than disappoint you?

I don't think that expectation of people remaining loyal has anything to do with it. People willing to wait one month or people willing to wait ten years doesn't make it any easier or harder to produce a product if you don't have the revenue.

That is like saying you have to hurry and buy a house if interest rates are going up. Sure it makes sense to get a house while rates are low, but if you can't afford the down payment the interest rate is just not relevant: You aren't getting a house.

Once you have the down payment then you can look at the interest rates and decide if you can afford to actually get the loan. It may really hurt that you can't afford the interest rates by the time you have the down payment, but what can you do? If people complain to you: "Well why didn't you buy when rates were low?" it isn't that you didn't want a house.

I don't understand why it is so hard for people to understand that people who produce puzzles aren't made of money. They seem to think the decision to produce a puzzle has to do with what the company wants to do, not what it is able to do.

I have every expectation that if Verdes had the money and a reasonable expectation that the product would cover its costs we would see these cubes. The fact that we have to wait tells me they don't have these things. That isn't their decision, that is a consequence of a difficult puzzle market filled with parasites.

This site shows its support of the designer who brought us these puzzles and the mechanism that has inspired so many others.

Dave

So will we ever see a v cube 4?

As I have stated before, this puzzle is only if it directly coppies the patent that it is mirroring. From what I have heard, this puzzle uses points from the eastsheen and v-cube 4x4's. So, according to the us patent office this puzzle is NOT a knock off. I think this is so and I won't change my stance unless someone provides substantial info otherwise. (And I will have to use this smiley )

If demand for KOs went down and more people purchased from V-Cubes, the process may be sped up. Like DLitwin said above, Verdes isn't going to make the same mistake twice. At the end of paragraph two two lectures above, DLitwin says "So predictions can be dangerous" Indeed- if something were to prevent the V-4s from ever being released, it would look even worse on the company if they said they couldn't meet demands they claimed to have done, whereas if they didn't publicize their updates, they wouldn't be in public trouble, they would just have a private issue on their hands. They don't want to upset the customers, because then they'd have less customers.

We aren't the US patent office, and Verdes has an international patent on the v-mech.

It doesn't matter if it's a direct copy of the puzzle (like the KO "Master Pyramorphinx"s were, including a chip out of the centers), or it's made following the same mechanism (which this 4x4x4 is) except for one thing (keeping hidden layers aligned).

Would it be against forum rules to post these mech pictures? That way we can much more easily identify if this does use V-Mech. Isn't Eastsheen-Mech patented as well? So if it uses elements of both, wouldn't that make it a super-KO?

It uses locks on the spider in a different way than the eastsheen mech, I'm pretty sure.

No. Although it makes people angry, it does not. But I still wouldn't buy it.

Verdes didn't use the block mechanism on his spider BECAUSE he didn't want to infringe on any patents from eastsheen.

v mech with eastsheen block is just as illegal, if not more, than a 'regular' v cube KO.

I have to say I don't know where this one is going. The points about a different locking mechanism are important but I don't know what that would mean in a patent court. I'm not sure anyone in this conversation has an substantial patent law experience to make a very informed statement. This clearly has a lot of influence from the Verdes patent and based on that I could understand them winning a suit against it (well, assuming Chinese enforcement which seems unavailable). The changes in locking mechanism are a differentiation and I don't know to what degree that matters. They also bear some resemblance to the ES mechanism, but I am not sure there is enough there to infringe the ES patent.

I am guessing this is where getting an experienced and persuasive patent lawyer comes in. I'm sure, like any legal action, it could go many ways depending on who is arguing which side.

I can say that the amount to which it borrows from the Verdes patent is quite high. It is essentially Verdes mechanism with a minor difference. In this I am pretty uncomfortable about declaring it KO free. Getting Verdes' view on it might inform us, although given its origin I might guess that view.

Like the 8x8x8 built on a V-7 with a Rubik's 4x4x4 core this touches on the important issue of where something differentiates enough to be considered unique, and how developments in our area can build on good ideas without trampling on them. Unlike that 8x8x8 build this is a commercial product and not a single hand built item.

Dave

I just also wanted to point out that this 4x4x4 uses Pi's unique solution for middle layer alignment, so wouldn't it also be a sort of moral right infringing KO in that way too?

That depends on if you had information to say they copied it from Pi as opposed to developing it on their own. It takes a long time from design to a mass produced product and I don't know the timing involved in their design vs. his.

ok I was patiently watching this thread and here is my take (which also expresses
some discussion I had with K. Verdes the past couple of days).

1. It clearly uses a big chunk of the V-cube mechanism.

2. There is too much hype of its efficiency (yes I have friends who are speedsolvers).

3. A patent office (unless it is in China, where even small mods can get a new "patent")
will never allow a new patent for this until the current one(s) expire.
For speedsolvers there might be some "innovation", but from the questions you
receive from the patent office, it is clear that such mods are not acceptable
unless the mechanism is *clearly* different. Big mods are granted, not small mods.
In China though, you may have a small mod accepted, which is not the case in the US.
As an example, after I filed my 4D symmetry Graphidron patent, just a few months ago,
I was told that I cannot file it because of a similarity to a virtual one! And it also had
nothing to do with toys or puzzles, it simply was linked to another patent, with an unrelated
mechanism and which at some point was mentioning the word "toy". Only when I explained
that my physical design will not allow twists (and therefore no breakage of the structure,
unlike the previous one) and there was something *new* (i.e. proof of concept) to bring
(which was making the object move with no problems, unlike past designs), then we
were allowed to proceed. This is the central point of discussion, and I did not even touch
the ethical part, only the legal part. If there are more who would like to discuss this,
please do so, but based on the above arguments, me and Konstantinos' (which is not
necessarily the judge's opinion) are convinced that this is a KO.

4. Last January, together with the V-Cubes lawyer in Hong Kong (which for some weird reason
reacts more "internationally" to patents than mainland China), we *closed down* shops
which used similar "mods", so I hope this last part answers all your questions.




Pantazis


PS. Please do not ask *me* more questions about this, but you may discuss with others.
The stance described is crystal clear. For a few months in the beginning of 2009, I was
trying to explain the same thing to many people. It drained too much energy to explain
something obvious (at least to me) and I do not intend to go back to such an argumentative path.
I'd rather make some completely new designs myself to avoid even the slightest of conflict.
Thanks!

Thank-you very much for your work on getting this information to us. It is nice to have clarification on this matter.

Not a surprise, but good to have that on the record, and I think I have enough to qualify this as KO for the purposes of this site's KO policy. As such we'll not want any links to this on the forum.

Sigh. Now I have to go and edit out all the references. Please believe as much as you might not like the KO issues on this forum, our policy makes things harder for me than for you. But it is the principled stance so we'll do what we can.

Dave

Dave, we all appreciate the work you do over these kinds of issues, but why edit out even the name of the brand in the topic title? If you left that in, everyone who saw the thread (or searched the forum for the brand asking the same question this thread originally did) would readily find "oh, okay, stay away from *that* one". I mean, I guess it's clear enough which one it is if you already know what the mech looks like, but if you're just someone looking for a good 4x4 to buy, this thread tells you nothing, where it probably should be telling you "stay away".

I take it by the censoring of the topic that a decision has been reached. Yay!
EDIT: My internet was lagging, so I couldn't see the top few posts.

I'm really hoping we don't have to deal with yet another KO thread.
Hopefully if KOs are brought up, simply a reminder to one of the
countless KO topics will end the discussion.

An understandable question. The issue came up and I addressed why not a blacklist here and in response we created the Non-KO puzzle list.

Sadly this list is pretty incomplete at the moment, partially because I have been on vacation (IPP!), partially because of late I have been spending time editing KO related threads ([url=http://twistypuzzles.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=222411#p222411]sigh[/url) and finally because I have not had much assistance. It would be appreciated.

Slim as it is, the list does in fact cover KOs of the not yet produced V-4. I hope, like with the KOd SuperFloppy (now properly released as the Scramble Cube), the V-4 will come to market.

Dave

Ah Dave, my apologies. I too am on an extended holiday and am having two issues. 1) I've been relaxing for the first time in years and my sister has been given strict orders (from my husband) to steal my computer. I do get on at around 4:30 am when she is sleeping and I'm having my coffee though ) and 2) her wifi sharing thing keeps shutting down (I've retyped this twice already).

Guys, Don't make Dave work too hard until I can get back on and help out more! He does too much already.