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 Post subject: Puzzle Building Competition idea
PostPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2010 1:56 pm 
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The competition is here!

p.s. That was the longest post I have ever made in both lenght and time! And by a long shot!

****************************************************************

Hello everyone,
I had an idea for a puzzle building competition. I would like to get your feed back on the idea. The main goal is to add good quality, cheap puzzles to shapeways.

Here are a few bullets:

* designed in cad, printed at shapeways
* volume of 19cm^3 or less (ie wsf $30 usd or less) and open to general public
* no piece that is to be externally moved (twisted, slid, etc.) can be smaller than 1cm across. (no super mini layers or super mini puzzles)
* some sort of deadline (say 1 month to design/print/assemble/film)
* has to be original (your work/collaboration with all members cited)
* you are aloud a base puzzle/object to build off of (ie 2x2x4 using a mini 2x2x2) but the base puzzle/object can't be more than $15 usd
* has to be a twisty puzzle or a flat, turning puzzle such as Pascal's Jumble.
* the puzzles will be voted on by a panel of (esteemed) judges from TP.
* you may enter up to two puzzles
* puzzles voted on by turning quality (as depicted by the video), over all apearance, innovation, difficulty and cleverness.

I would really like to have some sort of competition this summer as more people would be able to participate, so all helpful imput is welcome.

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Last edited by Steryne on Thu Jul 15, 2010 10:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzle Building Competition idea
PostPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2010 2:25 pm 
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Great idea!

I say that the competition should start now, and go until mid-August or the end of August. Then the voting can take place in September. Once the competition starts, there should be a sticky thread in the Puzzle Building and Modding forum to which people can post their entries (and nothing else).

There should be a limit on the number of entries anyone can make. We don't want anyone dominating the competition. I say 2 puzzles per member or group of members. EDIT: Oops... :oops: Missed that in the first post....

I also think that it's important that before anyone posts their entries, they get a working prototype, so that they know that the entry is valid.

One more thing: 19 cm^3 is really small for a puzzle. How about a $40 or $50 limit?

Who did you have in mind for the judges? I'd be more than happy to judge, but I think I might enter, so I probably wouldn't be allowed! :lol:

-Ï€ (Eitan)

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzle Building Competition idea
PostPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2010 2:39 pm 
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This sounds like a really great idea and i would love to participate. the only thing is that the 30 USD limit is very limiting
i agree with pisquared that the price limit needs to be increased.

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzle Building Competition idea
PostPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2010 3:16 pm 
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Make the limit above $260 without the density discount and I'll enter my project :lol:

Actually I think it should be split up into groups. $0 to $30, $30.01 to $75, and $75.01 and above. This way I could enter my puzzle but not discourage smaller projects to be designed and built. If you don't like this idea, that's fine. I can design on the small scale as well :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzle Building Competition idea
PostPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2010 3:36 pm 
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Well, thanks for the feedback! I will talk to some people and get this set up. I guess you can start brain storming now. Also, I will put it at a $50 limit with a $10 base as the 2 maximums. Enjoy your summer. I plan on asking five people to judge. The five are (in no particular order) Aleh, Oskar, Dave, JinHKim and Sausage. I also have two back-ups.
Thanks,
Tanner Frisby

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzle Building Competition idea
PostPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2010 4:12 pm 
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I like this idea :D

You should set up a list of rules. For example, would a puzzle be allowed if it was already being built before reading this thread?

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzle Building Competition idea
PostPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2010 5:29 pm 
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I wish I could participate in this, Matt and I are working on another big puzzle project, so I probably won't be able to enter much.

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzle Building Competition idea
PostPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2010 6:08 pm 
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Thats too bad.

As for ideas being made before reading this, I would say no, but it is up to your conscience as to when you thought it up :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzle Building Competition idea
PostPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2010 6:25 pm 
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Maybe when the final thread is started, each designer could get one post for each project and update it with their progress. Each puzzle needs to be anounced before being designed so that it is more a compitition then just 3d printed puzzle of the moth

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzle Building Competition idea
PostPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2010 7:24 pm 
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I was actually thinking about something along the lines of this earlier today. I was thinking that at a competition they add the event of modification, where puzzle modders compete to make the same mod in the fastest time of the highest quality. Since I can't afford the good CADs I can't compete in yours.

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzle Building Competition idea
PostPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2010 7:34 pm 
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Alibre is what I use. I veiw it as very good. It is also free (although with a few limitations). I however am using a student version without the limitations.

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzle Building Competition idea
PostPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2010 7:35 pm 
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Rentlix wrote:
I was actually thinking about something along the lines of this earlier today. I was thinking that at a competition they add the event of modification, where puzzle modders compete to make the same mod in the fastest time of the highest quality. Since I can't afford the good CADs I can't compete in yours.

Blender is free...




Don't use it unless you want to destroy your mind.

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzle Building Competition idea
PostPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2010 9:02 pm 
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Stop telling people to use blender! The only thing that I use blender for is combing .stl's to cut down on wsf $1.50 start up cost. For our purposes, that is about all it is good for.

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzle Building Competition idea
PostPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2010 9:06 pm 
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I like this idea but do you think you can make two price brackets with one up to $110-120 that way I can enter my crazy quartet (I think around $100 is reasonable if it is a larger puzzle). :D

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzle Building Competition idea
PostPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2010 9:15 pm 
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Steryne wrote:
Stop telling people to use blender! The only thing that I use blender for is combing .stl's to cut down on wsf $1.50 start up cost. For our purposes, that is about all it is good for.

So you are the one that keeps saying that. I was going to include your name in the small print but couldn't remember it.

@Drew11
I agree about different price ranges. However, I think we need to design the puzzle for the competion, not just find our best and enter it.
Blender works great if you know how to use it :D

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzle Building Competition idea
PostPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2010 9:57 pm 
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As for a higher price range, no. The goal is to give lower cost, high quality 3d printed puzzles oppurtunities to the general public.

As for Blender, this is the first time I have ever told you not to advertise blender for puzzle buiding.
It is a bunch of people telling you to not advertise blender, not just a single person telling you many times.

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzle Building Competition idea
PostPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2010 10:04 pm 
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drew11 wrote:
Steryne wrote:
As for Blender, this is the first time I have ever told you not to advertise blender for puzzle buiding.
It is a bunch of people telling you to not advertise blender, not just a single person telling you many times.


You don't have to be mean. It may be anoying to some when he advertizes blender but everyone is allowed an opinion. Just like he likes blender more than any other program I like solidworks and think it is superior to almost all other programs. This is different for everyone, so lets just stop fighting and go back to designing puzzles. :D

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzle Building Competition idea
PostPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2010 10:53 pm 
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If I had Solidworks, I'd use it. However, Blender is free and the best free program I know of.

Back on topic, I do like the idea of a Shapeways puzzle competition. Maybe even Shapeways could get envolved and offer a prize :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzle Building Competition idea
PostPosted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 6:08 am 
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I have my idea and I'm milling it over in my head. I think it's something a lot of people would want/like.

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzle Building Competition idea
PostPosted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 7:15 am 
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Anyway, i have a few rules questions, do you plan on releasing an official list or are we just going to stick to the ones set up now?

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzle Building Competition idea
PostPosted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 8:10 am 
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Does it have to be shapeways?

http://www.ponoko.com/ does laser cutting, which is probably better for sliding type puzzles (like pascal's jumble)

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzle Building Competition idea
PostPosted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 9:26 am 
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Well, perferably shapeways. However, the main goal will still aply here.

If it is under $50 and open to the general public, then it is acceptalbe.

p.s. We now have 1 judge!

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzle Building Competition idea
PostPosted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 9:41 am 
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I look forward to this. When will the competition start with the final rules posted? I came up with a clever idea yesterday and hope it will be allowed.

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzle Building Competition idea
PostPosted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 10:34 am 
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You may start designing now, the final rules will be posted by Thursday.

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzle Building Competition idea
PostPosted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 1:15 pm 
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2 questions.

You said it is ok to use a base puzzle, ie 2x2x2. Can the base puzzle be custom made?

Does the entire puzzle besides the base need to be printed? Can metal be used for screws and can parts be printed in metal?

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzle Building Competition idea
PostPosted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 2:48 pm 
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drew11 wrote:
drew11 wrote:
Steryne wrote:
As for Blender, this is the first time I have ever told you not to advertise blender for puzzle buiding.
It is a bunch of people telling you to not advertise blender, not just a single person telling you many times.


You don't have to be mean. It may be anoying to some when he advertizes blender but everyone is allowed an opinion. Just like he likes blender more than any other program I like solidworks and think it is superior to almost all other programs. This is different for everyone, so lets just stop fighting and go back to designing puzzles. :D

Steryne wasn't being mean. Of course PuzzleMaster6262 is allowed an opinion, but IMO I believe that it is coming close to spam. I haven't got a clue how to use Blender. :oops:

On topic: I am very much looking forward to the results of this competition. I have avoided fully printing puzzles due to the high cost - if some affordable and interesting puzzles come up in this competition, I may buy a 3d printed puzzle. :D

Alex

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzle Building Competition idea
PostPosted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 2:53 pm 
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If I start sending random pms to people saying they should use blender, by all means yell at me.

My simple idea I decided on for this is becoming a bit bigger then expected. Right now it's 7cm x 7cm x 7cm and I doubt it will be less then $50 :(

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzle Building Competition idea
PostPosted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 2:55 pm 
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I would like to be a judge, as I have no building experience whatsoever, but can always keep an eye out for new and good puzzles!

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzle Building Competition idea
PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 12:38 am 
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I just figured out what my puzzle is going to be, and it's going to be quite a beast to solve (even though it uses a 2x2 as its base!).

It would be really cool if a lot of these puzzles showed up at the MIT meet-up. That way some of us could even try them out and give more feedback than the judges, who will only be going by the videos.

-Ï€ (Eitan)

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzle Building Competition idea
PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 8:04 am 
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As for the base object + screws, etc. You just have to keep it under $10.

As for more judges, I already have five from here and I might have a very special sixth judge.

I can't wait to see your puzzle Pi, I like the idea of all of the puzzles being put in one place (MIT Competition). I might just have to send you my puzzle.

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzle Building Competition idea
PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 8:56 am 
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My idea would guarantee victory. Unfortunately, however, I can't use the good CADs because I don't have the money...

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzle Building Competition idea
PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 9:29 am 
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Rentlix wrote:
My idea would guarantee victory. Unfortunately, however, I can't use the good CADs because I don't have the money...

It would guarantee second place, behind my puzzle! :lol:

I'll give a hint: inside is within.
What is that have to do with anything? I don't really know but it sounds confusing. A better hint is the outside is within the inside of the outside but that doesn't really make it less confusing.
Rentlix, I'll have to put on hold my version of the puzzle we have discussed because I really really want to win this, along with every other competition I actually enter.

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzle Building Competition idea
PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 2:52 pm 
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PuzzleMaster6262 wrote:
Rentlix, I'll have to put on hold my version of the puzzle we have discussed because I really really want to win this, along with every other competition I actually enter.

Alright with me.

How would a collaboration work in a competition like this?

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzle Building Competition idea
PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 8:25 pm 
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Well, in your case, it might be: Idea and Money + Cad Literate = Winning Puzzle.

P.S. I am Cad Litterate and have an open Sumer :!:

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzle Building Competition idea
PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 8:35 pm 
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Steryne wrote:
Well, in your case, it might be: Idea and Money + Cad Literate = Winning Puzzle.

P.S. I am Cad Litterate and have an open Sumer :!:

I think that would be a dirty way to win, get the person who made the competition and knows exactly what the judges want to design a puzzle for someone. Now me on the other hand, I may use Blender but I would be a better designer for someone wanting to play by the rules of fare play :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzle Building Competition idea
PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 8:38 pm 
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I actually don't see how that is not fair play. All I would be doing is going from paper to .stl. It was intended to be a joke though, as I already have my ideas.

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzle Building Competition idea
PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 8:55 pm 
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Ok, people. Let's stop discussing the competition. Start your engines! (CAD engines, that is...)

-pi (Eitan)

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzle Building Competition idea
PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 9:06 pm 
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I think it could be something more organized, with an own topic with instructions and awards

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzle Building Competition idea
PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 9:17 pm 
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mu puzzles wrote:
I think it could be something more organized, with an own topic with instructions and awards

I agree and think that is being posted on Thursday. Each puzzle/designer/team should get their own reply to edit as the puzzle goes from an idea to a finished product.

I can design the 3d files for any puzzle. Contact me by pm and we can get started. I accept all major credit cards and work Monday, Tuesday, and Thursday excluding made up holidays. Your puzzle design should be finished within 17 working days unless I forget about you.
joke

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzle Building Competition idea
PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 9:19 pm 
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I would REALLY like to get in on this competition but I see a few problems. For one, I am away from my home (super)computing device, and thus cannot start designing a puzzle until I get back on the 23rd. This gives me extremely limited time to design the puzzle and order it from Shapeways.

My second issue is that a month, even with constant access to a computer, is an extremely short time to go from a 3d model to a working puzzle. Especially if the puzzle you ordered came from Shapeways with a printing defect. Or, Shapeways could have a production holdup that may extend their shipping time. Also you need to consider that some builders may want their puzzle to have custom stickers, and with a service like Dr. sticker, that may take a week or so in itself mostly for shipping.

Maybe if we can have a month to get the design onto Shapeways (it shows the date uploaded) then another month to have it printed, assembled, dyed, stickered, and video uploaded. That would also leave plenty of time for re-prints if they are necessary.

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzle Building Competition idea
PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 9:21 pm 
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I agree, it usually takes at least 2-3 weeks for something from shapeways to arrive.

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzle Building Competition idea
PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 9:38 pm 
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Rentlix wrote:
How would a collaboration work in a competition like this?

I'm not kidding when I ask this.
Steryne wrote:
Well, in your case, it might be: Idea and Money + Cad Literate = Winning Puzzle.

P.S. I am Cad Litterate and have an open Sumer

But this doesn't seem like much of an answer. I wasn't asking, "Hey, anyone want to collaborate?" I was asking, "How would a collaboration work?"
Steryne wrote:
I actually don't see how that is not fair play. All I would be doing is going from paper to .stl. It was intended to be a joke though, as I already have my ideas.

So, any rules regarding collaboration?

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzle Building Competition idea
PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 10:06 pm 
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Garret, you have some very good points. I will include those in the final list of rules on Thrusday.

Rentlix, As for rules for colaboration, would you like to propose some? All I can think of is that all members are in agreement on all aspects of the puzzle (from who is to build it to who will have it in the end and everything inbetween).

Besides that, two brains are better than one, but a house divided cannot stand. Pick your teamates wisely :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzle Building Competition idea
PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 10:31 pm 
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Steryne wrote:
Garret, you have some very good points. I will include those in the final list of rules on Thrusday.

Rentlix, As for rules for colaboration, would you like to propose some? All I can think of is that all members are in agreement on all aspects of the puzzle (from who is to build it to who will have it in the end and everything inbetween).

Besides that, two brains are better than one, but a house divided cannot stand. Pick your teamates wisely :wink:

I choose Oskar, or do they have to not be a judge/mastermind? :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzle Building Competition idea
PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 11:14 pm 
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PuzzleMaster6262 wrote:
I choose Oskar, or do they have to not be a judge/mastermind? :lol:

Good luck getting a collaboration with Oskar. I'm not doubting he is willing to collaborate but in all honesty, wouldn't you just be slowing him down?

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzle Building Competition idea
PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 11:19 pm 
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Rentlix wrote:
PuzzleMaster6262 wrote:
I choose Oskar, or do they have to not be a judge/mastermind? :lol:

Good luck getting a collaboration with Oskar. I'm not doubting he is willing to collaborate but in all honesty, wouldn't you just be slowing him down?

No, I would stay out of his way and let him work his magic. I'd just pay a couple bucks for printing so that my name can be credited when he/we win :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzle Building Competition idea
PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 9:29 am 
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As a judge, how am I to evaluate the puzzles? Looking at a design is one thing but the quality of a puzzle can only really be determined by having it in one's hands. That whole sticky (design -> implementation -> functioning puzzle) process and all.

I might propose completed puzzles can be shipped to the judges for review. Aleh lives close to me we get two for one there, but Jin, Oskar and Wayne (provided they accept) live around the globe. I'm not sure if it makes more sense to contestants send a copy to each judge (four puzzles) or to try to send one copy around to each of the judges. The former is a bit of a cost issue for the contestant, the latter a bit of a judging delay and minor shipping burden on the judges.

Perhaps we can have two competitions: Pure design where the CAD files themselves are reviewed, and final product.

Also, how one prepares a puzzle can make a big difference. Normally the author would build the puzzle but for a Shapeways contest it is generally more of a DIY. Does this mean each judge should assemble the puzzles?

In this light I suppose perhaps we could have three contests: Pure design, DIY, Completed puzzle. That seems a bit more than you were considering, however.

Thoughts?

Dave

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzle Building Competition idea
PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 10:13 am 
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Well, here are the bullets that I suggested for judging:

1. Turning quality (as depicted by the video)
2. Over all appearance
3. Innovation
4. Difficulty
5. Cleverness.

1. This can be very hard to judge. When I make and sell custom puzzles I always make a video of the puzzle before it is shipped. Some of my customers make videos of the puzzle when they receive it. I am always surprised at the difference.

2. I would think that this would be easy to judge. Just the judgment of craftsmanship.

3. Again, easy to judge but this could be subjective and opinion based.

4. This would have to be theoretical difficulty. I know that I couldn't (by m myself) find the theoretical difficulty for some of the puzzles I have in my collection. We might need someone else to help.

5. I would think this too is easy, but subjective and opinion based.

My solution to Dave's question and to #1 is as follows.

The video will be over the unboxing, opening of Shapeways/Ponoko new sealed packets, assembly (which is important to judges and potential buyers), and how it turns unbroken in. A second part of the video or a second video would be how it looks when stickered/tiled/dyed/etc. and how it turns when broken in.

What do you guys think?

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzle Building Competition idea
PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 10:26 am 
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I like the idea of the 2 month competition. That will give us a little more elbow room.

As for the judging, how about this? Once you are satisfied with your puzzle, let the judges know, and one of them can get a copy (we'd have to discuss who pays in this case...). Each judge would get an approximately equal number of puzzles. Then, after an agreed-upon deadline, the judges get together in a Skype (or similar) video conference, and share and discuss. That way, only one copy of each puzzle needs to be in the hands of one of the five judges.

I like the idea of the three different competitions, (Pure Design, DIY, and Completed Puzzle), but I recommend that we do one at a time, since each can produce such different types of puzzles. I think that Styrene has proposed the DIY competition.

-pi (Eitan)

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 Post subject: Re: Puzzle Building Competition idea
PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 10:44 am 
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pirsquared wrote:
As for the judging, how about this? Once you are satisfied with your puzzle, let the judges know, and one of them can get a copy (we'd have to discuss who pays in this case...). Each judge would get an approximately equal number of puzzles. Then, after an agreed-upon deadline, the judges get together in a Skype (or similar) video conference, and share and discuss. That way, only one copy of each puzzle needs to be in the hands of one of the five judges.

So after the designer finishes the puzzle, he/she puts it on shapeways markup free and one of the judges buys it? That could work well because it shows more of the design then post production puzzles all sanded and lubed being sent.

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