Online since 2002. Over 3300 puzzles, 2600 worldwide members, and 270,000 messages.

TwistyPuzzles.com Forum
 It is currently Wed Apr 16, 2014 2:19 am

 All times are UTC - 5 hours

 Page 1 of 1 [ 32 posts ]
 Print view Previous topic | Next topic
Author Message
 Post subject: Illegal Cube by OSKARPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 9:20 am

Joined: Mon Nov 30, 2009 1:03 pm
Hi Twisty Puzzles fans,

With all the discussions on jumbling going on, I thought that some of you would appreciate seeing a more doctrinaire puzzle from me. Illegal Cube is based on the geometry of a Pentagonal Prism. As you know, a classic pentagonal-prism twisty puzzle has square sides that can only turn in steps of 180 degrees. Illegal Cube is different from that.

Jason Smith came up with the concept of turning a square face of a pentagonal prism by 90 degrees. He added some extra cuts such that all square and pentagonal faces can turn again. The result is a versatile prims that has 90 degrees turns. Jason's concept jumbles, as infinitely more cuts are needed to fully unbandage his puzzle.

Like Jason's concept, Illegal Cube's square faces can make 90-degrees turns. However, I fudged the edges and corners such that all 15 edges and 10 corners are identical, and that they have the symmetries of regular Rubik's Cube edges and corners. This can be achieved by designing some crevices between the pieces. During each 90-degrees turn, the corners are reoriented a bit, such that the puzzle returns to its original shape after each turn.

I believe it was Bram Cohen, who introduced the term "fudging" for this type of movements. A proper definition of "fudging" would be welcomed. What do you think, is this fudged Illegal Cube a doctrinaire twisty puzzle?

Watch the YouTube video.
Buy the puzzle from my Shapeways Shop.
Read more at the Shapeways Forum.
Check out the photos below.

Enjoy!

Oskar
Attachment:

Illegal Cube - prototype - view 1.jpg [ 40.69 KiB | Viewed 6392 times ]

Attachment:

Illegal Cube - prototype - view 2.jpg [ 41.07 KiB | Viewed 6392 times ]

Attachment:

Illegal Cube - prototype - view 3.jpg [ 39.7 KiB | Viewed 6392 times ]

Attachment:

Illegal Cube - prototype - view 4.jpg [ 44.51 KiB | Viewed 6392 times ]

_________________
Oskar's home page, YouTube, Shapeways Shop, Puzzlemaster, and fan club
.

Last edited by Oskar on Sat Jul 03, 2010 12:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Top

 Post subject: Re: Illegal Cube by OSKARPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 9:23 am

Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2009 8:09 am
OMG CALL THE COPS

amazing puzzle oskar

_________________
Good to be back. Still plenty of things left to do!

Top

 Post subject: Re: Illegal Cube by OSKARPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 9:26 am

Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2009 6:38 pm
Fudging: the slight changing of shape, addition of gaps, or introduction of other minor irregularities to a Twisty Puzzle that allows for the changing of functionality of the puzzle.

At first when I saw this I thought that it was nothing special and thought that the Fudging was odd but now I see that 90 degree turns are possible and my ideas have changed. Nice idea!

_________________
Puzzle Photography Group

doctor who wrote:
I don't think I can make her pose without heavy sedation. The rendering doesn't have to be perfect, it just can't look like Oskar in drag.

Top

 Post subject: Re: Illegal Cube by OSKARPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 10:02 am

Joined: Wed May 13, 2009 4:58 pm
Location: Vancouver, Washington
Very sneaky. Still not completely sure how this works. It seems like there should be a lot of play in the pieces but the video shows that it's quite tight. I wonder if it's possible to make an illegal Tuttminx by the same method.

_________________
Real name: Landon Kryger

Top

 Post subject: Re: Illegal Cube by OSKARPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 10:39 am

Joined: Fri Jan 29, 2010 2:34 pm
Location: Scotland, UK
Great puzzle Oskar!

I had a similar idea, only I was thinking of using triangular prism geometry. I had a rough idea for the mechanism, but since I couldn't figure out a way around the problem of how to shape the outside pieces I had pretty much given up on the idea, though I maybe didn't put in enough thought. Fudging seems to be a really cool solution to the problem. Trust you to figure out how to make the unusual geometry work!

Fudging seems to be: changing the ouward appearance of the pieces of a puzzle such that adjacent pieces don't lie flush with each other, to allow for unusual functionality of the puzzle which cannot be achieved with the usual geometry.

I'm not sure of your definition of a doctrinaire puzzle, so I don't know if this matches the definition or not. It doesn't seem to jumble due to the fudging, so I would say it maybe is doctrinaire, but I'll leave the decision to people like you, Bram and others round here who are more expert on the definitions.

Matt

Top

 Post subject: Re: Illegal Cube by OSKARPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 11:18 am

Joined: Sun Jun 13, 2010 1:00 am
Really amazing puzzle I would love to try to solve this.
"Fudging" could be the addition of voids in a puzzle mechanism allowing new ways of movement.
This is one of my favorite puzzles from you, great job

_________________
My Shapeways Shop
My Museum Puzzles

Top

 Post subject: Re: Illegal Cube by OSKARPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 11:21 am

Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 7:37 pm
Nice idea. Please don't call your next puzzle "The Knock-off Cube" though.

_________________

Last edited by Tony Fisher on Sat Jul 03, 2010 12:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top

 Post subject: Re: Illegal Cube by OSKARPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 11:29 am

Joined: Mon Sep 29, 2008 9:41 am
Location: Spijkenisse, the Netherlands
Great puzzle as always. I don't really like the looks of the final product, but as it is (one of) the only solution to make this concept work, I don't mind it. (who am I to mind it anyway??)

I don't think it would be too hard to solve, just like most 3x3x3 solutions, but with some modified algorithms for the last side.

_________________
Olivér Nagy wrote:
43,252,003,274,489,856,000. Or the full number in Hungarian is:
Negyvenháromtrillió-kétszázötvenkétbilliárd-hárombillió-kétszázhetvennégymiliárd-négyszáznyolcvankilencmillió-nyolcszázötvenhatezer )

Top

 Post subject: Re: Illegal Cube by OSKARPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 11:33 am

Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2009 5:13 pm
Oscar, your asking for trouble, some people don't like to see our sacred laws (of physics) broken like this.

_________________
If you want something you’ve never had, you’ve got to do something you’ve never done - Thomas Jefferson

Top

 Post subject: Re: Illegal Cube by OSKARPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 12:13 pm

Joined: Thu Sep 24, 2009 12:21 pm
Location: Chichester, England
Incredible Oskar, when I saw that on ShapeWays, I thought it was just a Pentagonal Prism. But this... wow!

_________________
3x3x3 single: 5.73 seconds.
3x3x3 average of five: 8.92 seconds.
3x3x3 average of twelve: 9.77 seconds.

Buy the Curvy Copter Skewb, NovaMinx, and more here!

Top

 Post subject: Re: Illegal Cube by OSKARPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 1:31 pm

Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 12:09 pm
Location: Missouri
You know that age old question... Why did the 3x3x3 cross the road?

Well it looks like we still don't have an answer to that question but this does look like the answer to what happens when the 3x3x3 doesn't make it.

I think the perfect name for this puzzle is The Roadkill 3x3x3. It's all bloated and stretching at the seams and looks like its about to pop. This may be the first twisty puzzle where I'm not so eager to see what's on the inside. LOL!!

Did I mention I have an odd sense of humor? Poor 3x3x3... I hope it didn't suffer too long.

Carl

_________________
-

Top

 Post subject: Re: Illegal Cube by OSKARPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 2:42 pm

Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2009 6:46 pm
Location: Evanston, IL
I think this is definitely a doctrinaire puzzle. It's also a very cool puzzle!

I have a suggestion for the stickers, though. Perhaps it's just me, but the stickers look kind of messy. It's probably because of the fudging, since that causes odd gaps that show up on the external puzzle. Since those gaps are wedge-shaped, the stickers look like they are misaligned when I am sure they are not (as I know that Oskar is good at making puzzles ). Perhaps instead, you could mirror the wedge-shaped gaps in the shapes of the stickers, causing the gaps to look more rectangular from a distance.

What do you think?

-π (Eitan)

_________________
Eitan = "EIGHT-ahn"
Buy a Radio Cube 3! Only \$150 at Eitan's Shapeways Shop
Check out my video: Twisty Puzzles a la Vi

Top

 Post subject: Re: Illegal Cube by OSKARPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 2:53 pm

Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2010 3:21 pm
Location: Earth
I've been wondering why you call it "illegal" since I saw your Shapeways page about it. Now that I know why, I am amazed!

_________________
You just lost the game.

Top

 Post subject: Re: Illegal Cube by OSKARPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 6:05 pm

Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:16 pm
Location: Somewhere Else
So... does the fact that there are two pentagonal faces introduce any parity to solving?

Top

 Post subject: Re: Illegal Cube by OSKARPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 6:37 pm

Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 12:09 pm
Location: Missouri
Oskar wrote:
Jason Smith came up with the concept of turning a square face of a pentagonal prism by 90 degrees. He added some extra cuts such that all square and pentagonal faces can turn again. The result is a versatile prims that has 90 degrees turns. Jason's concept jumbles, as infinitely more cuts are needed to fully unbandage his puzzle.

Is Jason's concept public? I'd like to compare an image of his idea with this puzzle.

Oskar wrote:
I believe it was Bram Cohen, who introduced the term "fudging" for this type of movements. A proper definition of "fudging" would be welcomed. What do you think, is this fudged Illegal Cube a doctrinaire twisty puzzle?

I'd say yes, its a doctrinaire puzzle. But I don't think I'd call it a pure twisty puzzle. Since its doctrinaire it doesn't jumble. It doesn't appear to have slidey pieces either. So I'd say you just broke the universe again. Let me guess... we now have twisty moves, jumbling moves, slidey moves, and fudging moves?

Fudging = a twisty move that almost works so Oskar works his magic and makes it work.

I don't know... since some of the slidey moves require voids and this fudging method requires some voids maybe the two could be combined.

Carl

_________________
-

Top

 Post subject: Re: Illegal Cube by OSKARPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 6:56 pm

Joined: Fri Feb 06, 2009 2:57 pm
Location: Pittsburgh
I think I saw some Xen invaders today... better call Gordan Freeman.

Please, please, stop breaking the universe. The covenant are not forgiving.

_________________
3x3x3 PB: 00:48.10
"Study gravitation, it's a field with a lot of potential."

Top

 Post subject: Re: Illegal Cube by OSKARPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 9:08 pm

Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2009 6:46 pm
Location: Evanston, IL
wwwmwww wrote:
I don't know... since some of the slidey moves require voids and this fudging method requires some voids maybe the two could be combined.

I don't think so. For a slidey puzzle, you need voids the size of one normal piece. Here, the voids are just big enough to allow the otherwise "illegal" turns. Oskar, you have my full permission to continue breaking the universe once a week.

-Eitan

_________________
Eitan = "EIGHT-ahn"
Buy a Radio Cube 3! Only \$150 at Eitan's Shapeways Shop
Check out my video: Twisty Puzzles a la Vi

Top

 Post subject: Re: Illegal Cube by OSKARPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 11:40 pm

Joined: Sun Jun 13, 2010 1:00 am
Fudging is a way of making a puzzle work. It is not how the pieces move so it is not sliding. I think any design with fudging could be made without it as well. Does this puzzle have any internal pieces? If so then I don't know a thing about fudging.

_________________
My Shapeways Shop
My Museum Puzzles

Top

 Post subject: Re: Illegal Cube by OSKARPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 12:08 am

Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2009 8:41 am
Location: The Blue Mountains, Australia
When i first saw a pentagonal prism i assumed it turned like this and was a little disappoint when i saw it didn't. Glad someone made one how i imagined them.
Oskar wrote:
Jason's concept jumbles, as infinitely more cuts are needed to fully unbandage his puzzle.
The link provided doesn't show Jason's concept, nor have i ever heard anything of it before,i was wondering if there is a thread on it or if it was just a concept never discussed?
oops i should have read the thread more thoroughly wwwmwww asked the same thing already.

_________________
Some PBs
3x3x3 :20.7 seconds, 5x5x5 2:33, gigaminx 16:40, 7x7x7 9:48, pyraminx crystal 3:42

Top

 Post subject: Re: Illegal Cube by OSKARPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 9:00 am

Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2006 12:52 am
Quote:
Jason's concept jumbles, as infinitely more cuts are needed to fully unbandage his puzzle

So that means that the puzzle has restrictions when 90° moves are used right? I imagine this to be really hard to solve. On a helicopter cube for example, you see the changed shape and with some experience can get it back to cube stage. But on this puzzle you don't see the changed shape, so analysing the corners' orientations or someting will be needed.

I am really glad you wrote that sentence you quoted above. I haven't read this information before anywhere on this forum for some reason, since I guess it has been mentioned in some thread.
I once tried to create a helicopter sphere that wouldn't have restrictions and I just couldn't finish it. I eventually got confused by millions of lines and angles and my programm wouldn't go any further either.
I guess the reason is that It doesn't take a certain huge number of cuts but infinetly many.

This puzzle is an amazing construction as always. But you must forgive me when I say that I would never want to have one since it would drive me insane.

_________________
Life is simple.
eat. sleep. train. repeat.

Top

 Post subject: Re: Illegal Cube by OSKARPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 3:02 pm

Joined: Thu Sep 24, 2009 12:21 pm
Location: Chichester, England
This puzzle jumbles? It didn't look like it had any restricted moves to it. I thought you could solve it the same way as a Rubik's Cube.

_________________
3x3x3 single: 5.73 seconds.
3x3x3 average of five: 8.92 seconds.
3x3x3 average of twelve: 9.77 seconds.

Buy the Curvy Copter Skewb, NovaMinx, and more here!

Top

 Post subject: Re: Illegal Cube by OSKARPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 3:27 pm

Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2010 1:56 pm
yould it not be solved slightly like 5x5 centres? or am i barking up the wrong tree?

_________________
MY ZAZZLE SHOP!

Top

 Post subject: Re: Illegal Cube by OSKARPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 3:28 pm

Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 12:09 pm
Location: Missouri
SEBUVER wrote:
This puzzle jumbles?

They are talking about Jason's concept puzzle which as far as I know hasn't been shown yet. Not the puzzle Oskar presents above.

Carl

_________________
-

Top

 Post subject: Re: Illegal Cube by OSKARPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 5:50 pm

Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2010 2:25 pm
Location: Farmington, NM
GuiltyBystander wrote:
Very sneaky. Still not completely sure how this works. It seems like there should be a lot of play in the pieces but the video shows that it's quite tight. I wonder if it's possible to make an illegal Tuttminx by the same method.

I dunno. I think it would make it easier.

_________________
Autism Speaks can go away. I have Autism. I can speak for myself.

"You say tomater, I zader matermorts." - Coach Z

Top

 Post subject: Re: Illegal Cube by OSKARPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 7:18 pm

Joined: Wed May 13, 2009 4:58 pm
Location: Vancouver, Washington
Hmm, you're probably right. Though I wouldn't mind testing your theory if I had a Tuttminx

_________________
Real name: Landon Kryger

Top

 Post subject: Re: Illegal Cube by OSKARPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 1:38 am

Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2009 8:41 am
Location: The Blue Mountains, Australia
Aaron Williams wrote:
could it not be solved slightly like 5x5x5 centres? or am i barking up the wrong tree?
I would solve it more like a megaminx missing the middle. As in do the equivalent of megaminx star then F2L then go straight onto megaminx last layer.

_________________
Some PBs
3x3x3 :20.7 seconds, 5x5x5 2:33, gigaminx 16:40, 7x7x7 9:48, pyraminx crystal 3:42

Top

 Post subject: Re: Illegal Cube by OSKARPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 12:20 am

Joined: Sat Apr 21, 2007 11:21 pm
Location: Marin, CA
Wow, great work Oskar! As usual...

I think fudged designs are quite difficult to CAD.

For everyone who asked about the puzzle that inspired Oskar to create his version, I haven't shown it publicly yet. But I'll post a couple of images below! I'd like to finish up a working sample soon, but the Versatile Prism is part of the pile of carnage in my life created by the Helicopter Cube.

I called it the Versatile Prism because it's able to do moves other pentagonal prisms only dream about. 90 degree face turns! Other pent prisms wish they had that on their resume's!

The idea for a fudged version came up in a conversation with Bram in my garage about whether a fudged version might be more elegant than my jumbling version. We decided that the jumbling version offers quite a lot as a puzzle so I decided to finish it first. I'm thrilled Oskar picked up the concept with fudging and put his own unique style into it. It looks great. I'm really looking forward to seeing this in a few days!

I hope these images help to show how the jumbling version will work.

-Jason

_________________
Jason Smith posted here as 'io' through 2012.
Visit Jason Smith's PuzzleForge on Shapeways!
Jason Smith's Puzzles - YouTube Channel.

Top

 Post subject: Re: Illegal Cube by OSKARPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 12:48 am

Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2009 8:41 am
Location: The Blue Mountains, Australia
io wrote:
For everyone who asked about the puzzle that inspired Oskar to create his version, I haven't shown it publicly yet. But I'll post a couple of images below!
Very interesting. I like how these two puzzles turn in an almost identical way and yet would be very different to solve.

_________________
Some PBs
3x3x3 :20.7 seconds, 5x5x5 2:33, gigaminx 16:40, 7x7x7 9:48, pyraminx crystal 3:42

Top

 Post subject: Re: Illegal Cube by OSKARPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 1:22 am

Joined: Sun Jun 13, 2010 1:00 am
Elwyn wrote:
io wrote:
For everyone who asked about the puzzle that inspired Oskar to create his version, I haven't shown it publicly yet. But I'll post a couple of images below!
Very interesting. I like how these two puzzles turn in an almost identical way and yet would be very different to solve.

I agree. Oskar's could be solved almost like a layer by layer 3x3x3 while Jason's would be an all new solution.

_________________
My Shapeways Shop
My Museum Puzzles

Top

 Post subject: Re: Illegal Cube by OSKARPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 3:47 pm

Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2010 2:25 pm
Location: Farmington, NM
GuiltyBystander wrote:
Hmm, you're probably right. Though I wouldn't mind testing your theory if I had a Tuttminx

Who wouldn't?

_________________
Autism Speaks can go away. I have Autism. I can speak for myself.

"You say tomater, I zader matermorts." - Coach Z

Top

 Post subject: Re: Illegal Cube by OSKARPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 10:43 am

Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2007 6:58 pm
Location: Louisiana, US
Congrats, Oskar, you have violated the laws of geometry... Now the Universe is going to explode

As for your question as to whether or not this puzzle could be classified as "doctrinaire", I believe that it can. While the Illegal Cube does not hold up to the rigid geometric confines of a classic twistypuzzle, it very definitely follows the definition of a sequential motion puzzle. There are three part types: centers, corners, and edges. Centers can be classified as either square or pentagon. A rotation by one of the pentagonal faces permutes two 5-cycles, one of 5 edges and one of 5 corners. Likewise, a rotation by one of the square faces permutes two 4 cycles of edges and corners, respectively. The overall type, position, and shape of all pieces is preserved after every move, meaning it cannot jumble. The overall group-cycles are clearly well-defined as in a normal puzzle.

I believe that this is a case in which each additional cut is used to "unbandage" the rigid prentagonal pizm puzzle, in such a way that the "infinite dust" only occurs in the crevasses between the pieces without totally disintegrating the main parts. Io's "jumbling" version represe3nts only the first such iteration. The thin wedge shaped area eventually gets sliced to dust after repeated iterations, leaving the smoothly rounded edges and corners in their wake. With good, tight springs, the puzzle holds together.

It is a doctrinaire twistypuzzle with non-doctrinaire geometry.

_________________
My Creepy 3D Rubik's Cube Video
cisco wrote:
Yeah, Uwe is Dalai Lama and Paganotis is mother Teresa of Calcutta.

Top

 Post subject: Re: Illegal Cube by OSKARPosted: Sat Jul 10, 2010 2:59 pm

Joined: Sat Aug 22, 2009 3:27 pm
Location: California
You sir deserve 100 internets

_________________
Wazzaaaaaa!

I'm a youtuber =D

hey look ^

Rest In Peace Frank

Top

 Display posts from previous: All posts1 day7 days2 weeks1 month3 months6 months1 year Sort by AuthorPost timeSubject AscendingDescending
 Page 1 of 1 [ 32 posts ]

 All times are UTC - 5 hours

#### Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Solaktion and 8 guests

 You cannot post new topics in this forumYou cannot reply to topics in this forumYou cannot edit your posts in this forumYou cannot delete your posts in this forumYou cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
 Jump to:  Select a forum ------------------ Announcements General Puzzle Topics New Puzzles Puzzle Building and Modding Puzzle Collecting Solving Puzzles Marketplace Non-Twisty Puzzles Site Comments, Suggestions & Questions Content Moderators Off Topic

Forum powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group