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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2010 1:52 pm 
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Darren Grewe wrote:
Thanks I love it a lot. I was wondering if you could the name from a 1.4.8. to a Helicopter Dodecahedron.

"Helicopter Dodecahedron" is not too long?
How about Helicominx? It's up to you. You are the conceptor... :)

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2010 9:39 pm 
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gelatinbrain wrote:
Darren Grewe wrote:
Thanks I love it a lot. I was wondering if you could the name from a 1.4.8. to a Helicopter Dodecahedron.

"Helicopter Dodecahedron" is not too long? How about Helicominx? It's up to you.


Is it to long? If it is Helicopter 12

gelatinbrain wrote:
You are the conceptor... :)


Yea I think so.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2010 9:46 pm 
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I've been thinking about the physical puzzle, should put together something in solidworks for it.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 10:41 am 
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Solved the true helicopter dodecahedron.
Pretty annoying fellow, like the first helicopter dodecahedron. Unlike the cube, every color just has two faces in which al the triangles can be together, and just one for the solved state. It was pretty annoying to find out.
I solved it with just helicopter cube algos.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 9:14 pm 
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Sjoerd wrote:
Solved the true helicopter dodecahedron.
Pretty annoying fellow, like the first helicopter dodecahedron. Unlike the cube, every color just has two faces in which al the triangles can be together, and just one for the solved state. It was pretty annoying to find out.
I solved it with just helicopter cube algos.

I noticed the strange orbits issue last night too. I was solving the white triangles and I got 4 placed but realized the 5th was in an orbit that prevented it from reaching where it needed to be. I started to move them to a different face when I closed the puzzle because I didn't have time to solve it if I ran into any other odd problems.

Once I have placed 2 complete centers (all 5 triangles in both) does that insure the puzzle is solvable? Or am I going to get down to just a few centers remaining to be solved and learn I'm in the wrong orientation?

How many orbits are are the triangles in on this thing?

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2010 1:15 am 
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bmenrigh wrote:
Sjoerd wrote:
Solved the true helicopter dodecahedron.
Pretty annoying fellow, like the first helicopter dodecahedron. Unlike the cube, every color just has two faces in which al the triangles can be together, and just one for the solved state. It was pretty annoying to find out.
I solved it with just helicopter cube algos.

I noticed the strange orbits issue last night too. I was solving the white triangles and I got 4 placed but realized the 5th was in an orbit that prevented it from reaching where it needed to be. I started to move them to a different face when I closed the puzzle because I didn't have time to solve it if I ran into any other odd problems.

Once I have placed 2 complete centers (all 5 triangles in both) does that insure the puzzle is solvable? Or am I going to get down to just a few centers remaining to be solved and learn I'm in the wrong orientation?

How many orbits are are the triangles in on this thing?


I think there are six orbits. If you put a pair of opposite faces on the north and south poles, there is a corresponding orbit around the equator. All the triangles around the equator cannot go to the faces on the poles. There are 12 faces = 6 pairs of faces. Therefore there are 6 orbits.

The first thing I did to solve it is to find the orientation. I rotated the whole puzzle until no white triangle is on the equator. At that moment, the correct white face must be either the north pole or the south. I used the same method to identify the correct colors of three faces. I think you need to anchor three faces in order to know the orientation. Two faces are not sufficient. After figuring out the orientation, everything is similar to helicopter cube.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2010 1:24 am 
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To follow up on the Applet errors on Linux, I did some more testing. It seems the JOGL native binaries (nativewindow-natives-<OS>-<ARCH>.jar) for Linux are properly in the joglx/ folder but the ones there have a bug. I am specifically referring to nativewindow-natives-linux-i586.jar and nativewindow-natives-linux-amd64.jar I did some more testing and it seems the one up on Gelatinbrain's site for i586 has the MD5 a541a692f441896dc8dd9ac99da10ea6 whereas the new, fixed one has MD5 461e1f3204bfceea4ea7d75c56b1bde3.

When I test with the new one the applet loads and seems usable.

In the Jar files is a native shared library: libgluegen-rt.so

I disassembled the old and new version of this binary and compared their differences. When I factor out minor address changes because the routines were laid out slightly differently, the only difference is that the new one makes one more routine available:

00000954 <Java_com_sun_gluegen_runtime_CPU_getPointerSizeInBits>:
954: 55 push %ebp
955: 89 e5 mov %esp,%ebp
957: b8 20 00 00 00 mov $0x20,%eax
95c: 5d pop %ebp
95d: c3 ret
95e: 90 nop
95f: 90 nop

A bit of Googling suggests that this was a somewhat common bug that was fixed.

I think this was the patch that implemented this fix:
http://kenai.com/projects/gluegen/lists ... message/11

And I think these were people having the same issue:
http://forums.sun.com/thread.jspa?threadID=5432467
http://www.hackwars.net/node/768

Anything that uses getPointerSizeInBits() inside of CPU.c would fail dynamic linking against this shared library.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2010 1:31 am 
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schuma wrote:
I think there are six orbits. If you put a pair of opposite faces on the north and south poles, there is a corresponding orbit around the equator. All the triangles around the equator cannot go to the faces on the poles. There are 12 faces = 6 pairs of faces. Therefore there are 6 orbits.

The first thing I did to solve it is to find the orientation. I rotated the whole puzzle until no white triangle is on the equator. At that moment, the correct white face must be either the north pole or the south. I used the same method to identify the correct colors of three faces. I think you need to anchor three faces in order to know the orientation. Two faces are not sufficient. After figuring out the orientation, everything is similar to helicopter cube.

Great analysis, very creative. I think you are right about needing to anchor to 3 faces. I was going to suggest 3 at first but then I thought if you anchor to two adjacent faces you would uniquely identify the orientation. I did not realize that if you anchored to two opposite faces (such as white and yellow) then the puzzle could rotate about the axis those two faces share and so the orientation would still be ambiguous.

I am quite pleasantly surprised by the new challenge this puzzle offers. I don't think any other puzzle I have solved has a whole-puzzle orientation problem like this. Thank you Gelatinbrain and Darren Grewe :D

EDIT: It seems in some circumstances you have to do better than solve 3 faces. I solved white, yellow, and light-blue completely but was unable to finish the other faces. I think the three faces you solve can't share share an axis through the center of the cube. That is, solving white and yellow only counted as "one" face because they are opposite each other.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2010 10:37 am 
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bmenrigh wrote:
I think you'll like 1.3.6!
I did and i just beat Michaels move count :)
Elwyn wrote:
the next puzzle i'm after is 1.1.8. It's been the only gap between 1.1.1 and 1.1.12 since about 6 months ago when i decided it was too hard hahaha but now i think i can get close to or possibly even beat Michael's move count so i'm going to go for it soon.
I now realise it was Matt Galla's reccord i was looking to beat :roll: but hey it doesn't matter anymore due to this :twisted:
Attachment:
1.1.8.jpg
1.1.8.jpg [ 86.84 KiB | Viewed 5352 times ]
yep that's right 456 moves for 1.1.8. Granted those 456 moves did take me over 2 hours but that's due to some difficulties and having to figure out a good way to fix that stupid orientation parity. I've been rather unlucky when it comes to parity lately, it's quite annoying. Anyone want to know my method?

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2010 11:07 am 
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456? You destroyed the record :!: Your technique must be unique. What do you mean by orientation parity? There are no two color pieces and I don't see how you could get one twisted corner on this puzzle. Did you reduce the narrow triangles to Megaminx edges and then end up with a parity in those pairs? Two short 3-cycles would fix that as it isn't really much of a parity.

I'm guessing reduction to Megaminx but I'm not sure if it is better to reduce corners or edges first.

EDIT: You could probably opportunistically solve them at the same time using the equator slice, moving paired pieces out of your way into the top or the bottom. At some point though you'd have to switch to 3-cycles. For reduction you should be able to leave out the undoing of the face-turn setup moves. If you inverted the (3,1) wide-triangles routine to (1,3) then you should be able to cut out another three, making it five moves: slice, three, slice'. You could stop making edge pairs when you've paired all of the corners up and then use your previously stated trick of solving the Megaminx, getting about half the narrow triangles in place during that phase and then finishing up with a few pure 3-cycles of the narrow triangles. I'm looking forward to hearing your method once Julian has had a chance to chime in :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2010 5:47 pm 
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Elwyn wrote:
yep that's right 456 moves for 1.1.8. Granted those 456 moves did take me over 2 hours but that's due to some difficulties and having to figure out a good way to fix that stupid orientation parity. I've been rather unlucky when it comes to parity lately, it's quite annoying. Anyone want to know my method?

Whoa! Another record obliterated. My method was to solve the centers, then solve the corners and as many thin triangles as possible like a Megaminx, then cycle the remaining thin triangles (3,1) non pure, then the wide triangles (3,1) pure. I didn't think of reduction at all.

My guess is that you solved centers, paired Megaminx edges, built Megaminx corners, then solved the reduced Megaminx? The mystery to me is how you paired the Megaminx edges so efficiently. Please share!


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2010 9:00 pm 
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bmenrigh wrote:
There are no two color pieces and I don't see how you could get one twisted corner on this puzzle. Did you reduce the narrow triangles to Megaminx edges and then end up with a parity in those pairs? Two short 3-cycles would fix that as it isn't really much of a parity.
Yeah that's exactly what happened and how i fixed it. I know it's easy to fix but it was still annoying to get it because of the way i solved it.
Julian wrote:
Whoa! Another record obliterated. My method was to solve the centers, then solve the corners and as many thin triangles as possible like a Megaminx, then cycle the remaining thin triangles (3,1) non pure, then the wide triangles (3,1) pure. I didn't think of reduction at all.

My guess is that you solved centers, paired Megaminx edges, built Megaminx corners, then solved the reduced Megaminx? The mystery to me is how you paired the Megaminx edges so efficiently. Please share!
Yes that was exactly like my method. I've been using a lot of reduction lately and i've started to look at it as cycling though you don't need to undo setups and sometimes you can make short algs even shorter.

Method

1 centers. I actually got kind of lucky and got them in 14 moves.

2. This was annoying because you have to know you have one of each of all 30 megaminx edges. But as i said earlier as long as you only use megaminx moves you don't need to undo setups and it is a 5 move alg. slice to pair an edge move it into the U face replace it with another and move that back and undo slice. Two at a time just like basic 4x4x4 tactics.

3. This is unnecessary but here i solved megaminx to check for parity, found i had it and then when back to where i was and fixed it early.

4 corners are then reduced. at first i was going to use a (3,1) alg but then found if i do the 1 part first i only have to do the 3 part once. and again no undoing setups.

5 solve megaminx

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2010 9:23 pm 
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bmenrigh wrote:
You could probably opportunistically solve them at the same time using the equator slice, moving paired pieces out of your way into the top or the bottom. At some point though you'd have to switch to 3-cycles. For reduction you should be able to leave out the undoing of the face-turn setup moves. If you inverted the (3,1) wide-triangles routine to (1,3) then you should be able to cut out another three, making it five moves: slice, three, slice'. You could stop making edge pairs when you've paired all of the corners up and then use your previously stated trick of solving the Megaminx, getting about half the narrow triangles in place during that phase and then finishing up with a few pure 3-cycles of the narrow triangles. I'm looking forward to hearing your method once Julian has had a chance to chime in
I did think about trying them both at the same time if possible but i don't know how well that would have worked. And yes i did exactly like you mentioned about the setups and changing the alg to (1,3) hahaha perhaps we think alike. i just did it for both edges and corners.

Edit: Small update, re-did 1.1.19 and got annoyingly close to sub 500 with a 504 move solve... meh, still beat the existing record by 239 moves :D

Also figured that the same thing for 1.1.8 corners applied to 1.1.37 and so solved it in 222 moves beating another Michael record. :D

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 8:52 am 
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Are you up for a challenge Julian? 1.1.6 in 593 moves 8-)

No new method this time, the same old pyraminx crystal edges then starminx centers then pentultimate corners then finally trapezoids.

I just found a (3,1) for the trapezoids and was very careful at every stage. Only took 19 moves more than my best starminx solve and that has no pentultimate corners so i really think i could get that a fair bit lower too one day.

I was planning on doing it all pentultimate pieces then edges then trapezoids and i still might if Julian beats that record. Though really i think it would be about the same as far as move count goes.

Only two more FM records till i have as many as Doug :D

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 12:54 am 
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Are any other Windows users completely unable to run the applets? gelatinbrain, if you're here, can you at least fully update the standalone .exe version?

EDIT: Hey, I got it to work, thanks to a suggestion earlier in this thread (to delete the Java cache). Thanks bmenrigh. I went and solved the Teraminx but that reminded me of how ridiculously hard it is to tell red and orange apart on this machine. I'm going to see if I can fix that myself that before I try anything else. gelatinbrain, do you think you could change the orange color to something lighter like #ffd137?

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 11:35 am 
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qqwref wrote:
Are any other Windows users completely unable to run the applets? gelatinbrain, if you're here, can you at least fully update the standalone .exe version?

EDIT: Hey, I got it to work, thanks to a suggestion earlier in this thread (to delete the Java cache). Thanks bmenrigh. I went and solved the Teraminx but that reminded me of how ridiculously hard it is to tell red and orange apart on this machine. I'm going to see if I can fix that myself that before I try anything else. gelatinbrain, do you think you could change the orange color to something lighter like #ffd137?

Finally got mine working too. Had to update java from v6 update18 to v6 update20, cleared cache, then cleared browser cache and it worked.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 3:20 pm 
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I updated theexe version,
and I made the orange color of the applet a little lighter(#ffd137). Personally I have a little trouble to distinguish this lighter orange from yellow. But if no one complains it's OK for me. 8-)

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 4:14 pm 
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gelatinbrain wrote:
I made the orange color of the applet a little lighter(#ffd137). Personally I have a little trouble to distinguish this lighter orange from yellow. But if no one complains it's OK for me. 8-)

Thanks! I've always struggled with the Red/Orange too but since I'm not going for speed so I've just ignored the problem. I also have trouble with the Red/Pink. Maybe you could make the red a bit darker? Even reducing the luminosity by 10-20% would help.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 8:12 pm 
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Why on earth would you want two yellows?. I've always thought the red and orange were two of the easiest to tell apart and now the yellow and other yellow are extremely difficult? I do agree that the red and pink were a little similar but for me that is nothing compared to the current yellow and "orange" :?

Perhaps somewhere between the old one and the new one would be ok for everyone?

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 8:39 pm 
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Elwyn wrote:
Why on earth would you want two yellows?. I've always thought the red and orange were two of the easiest to tell apart and now the yellow and other yellow are extremely difficult? I do agree that the red and pink were a little similar but for me that is nothing compared to the current yellow and "orange" :?

Perhaps somewhere between the old one and the new one would be ok for everyone?


Agree. Currently the two yellow colors are too similar for me. I think the dark yellow on octahedra and icosahedra might be a good choice.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed May 26, 2010 5:17 pm 
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schuma wrote:
Elwyn wrote:
Why on earth would you want two yellows?. I've always thought the red and orange were two of the easiest to tell apart and now the yellow and other yellow are extremely difficult? I do agree that the red and pink were a little similar but for me that is nothing compared to the current yellow and "orange" :?

Perhaps somewhere between the old one and the new one would be ok for everyone?


Agree. Currently the two yellow colors are too similar for me. I think the dark yellow on octahedra and icosahedra might be a good choice.


OK, the new orange is exactly at the middle of yellow and red. I made the pink a little bit darker too. Orange and DeepPink on this list .
I think it's a good compromise...

I added a few 2d puzzles too 8-)

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed May 26, 2010 6:49 pm 
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Thank you. I'd be very surprised if someone got that orange confused with either that red or yellow.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Fri May 28, 2010 6:07 pm 
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I have played with the slice-only puzzles (1.2.10 and 3.2.5) a bit and so far I haven't been able to make any progress with either. I think 1.1.8 was intended to be like this too so I sure am glad it face-turns too!

Does anyone have any recommendations on how to approach these puzzles?

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun May 30, 2010 1:37 pm 
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bmenrigh wrote:
I have played with the slice-only puzzles (1.2.10 and 3.2.5) a bit and so far I haven't been able to make any progress with either. I think 1.1.8 was intended to be like this too so I sure am glad it face-turns too!

Does anyone have any recommendations on how to approach these puzzles?
1.2.10 - the online puzzle has regular turns in addition to slice turns, so it can be solved just like 1.2.3 if you like. (I hope that the slice-only versions of 1.1.8 and 1.2.10 can be added to Gelatinbrain, because I find them interesting.)

3.2.5 - hint: all of the pieces are tied together in pairs.


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun May 30, 2010 1:45 pm 
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Elwyn wrote:
Are you up for a challenge Julian? 1.1.6 in 593 moves 8-)
You are the king of 1.1.6! I tried my best and did a solve of 629 moves today. I solved the Pentultimate pieces first (181 moves), then the trapezoids (all the white ones, then 2 of each adjacent face, then a few more, all using quick and dirty intuitive short algos, then the rest with (3,1) cycles - 266 moves), then finally edges (4 white ones using (1,1) cycles then the rest with (3,1) cycles - 182 moves).


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 3:26 am 
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Julian wrote:
You are the king of 1.1.6!
Nice to know because Michael's been steadily reclaiming the other records I got.
183 for 1.1.37! that is insane I thought beating 250 was impressive.

In other news i really want to get 1.3.2 done. All i need is this
Julian wrote:
1.3.2 - Deep cut face and corner turns
((2 setups) (1,1) (2 setups)', 1) = (8,1)
from half way down page 33 but i just can't find it :? I'd like to think i am getting better at finding my own algs but i think in this case some more hints would be much appreciated.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 7:23 am 
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YEAH. I just finished solving 1.2.3. I started yesterday evening, went to a party and continued this morning at eleven. So I had to leave the PC in standby over the night and so I have a time of about 18 hours. :D
I started with the centers like I solve them on a skewb. Next I solved the big triangles adjacent to the corners. Solving the corners was the easiest part. I also figured out an easy quick way to orient 2 corners cleanly. I wish I would have found that one when I solved 1.2.2 because orientating corners took me 52 moves and heck a lot of time. Of course I ran into the corner parity issue, where only one corner is orientated wrong and hat to do all the tidious work with the triangles again. Last I solved the little triangles. I took forever for me to find a three cycle. I though I had one already but when I used it I recognized that it would also cycle trinangles of one face around in a circle. I didn't see that when I found that alg on the solved puzzle. It looked like a three cycle at first sight and I was dumb enough to forget to doublecheck.
Anyway it was horribly much work even with the cycle for me. But now that I solved it I can ask for help for a better alg.
So my alg was this:

/*000000*/CBH',
/*000001*/BFI,
/*000002*/CBH,
/*000003*/BFI',
/*000004*/ABC',
/*000005*/ACD',
/*000006*/AEF,
/*000007*/ACD,
/*000008*/ABC,
/*000009*/BFI,
/*000010*/CBH',
/*000011*/BFI',
/*000012*/CBH,
/*000013*/ABC',
/*000014*/ACD',
/*000015*/AEF',
/*000016*/ACD,
/*000017*/ABC,

Ok, goodness. :lol: I don't really know what corner is what letter and what I have to write when I turn the whole puzzle so I just copied the moves from the applet.
At the beginning the dodecahedron lies in a way that the front side pentagon has a tip on top. You first have to turn it so that the front side pentagon has a tip on the bottom. I don't know if this information is in the moves already.
So if anyone has time or is bored enough to check this alg and give me an opinion if it was good or bad I would be happy. :D It did work, like I said but it was mad to arrange the pieces with it.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 11:05 am 
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Nice work! That puzzle was discussed a fair bit on the previous page (near the bottom).
alaskajoe wrote:
At the beginning the dodecahedron lies in a way that the front side pentagon has a tip on top. You first have to turn it so that the front side pentagon has a tip on the bottom. I don't know if this information is in the moves already.
The gelatinbrain notation adjusts for puzzle position as you change it, so even if you move the puzzle around during an alg you'll notice the moves in the "moves" section change as you move it so it doesn't really matter what position you had the puzzle in.
alaskajoe wrote:
I took forever for me to find a three cycle. I though I had one already but when I used it I recognized that it would also cycle trinangles of one face around in a circle. I didn't see that when I found that alg on the solved puzzle. It looked like a three cycle at first sight and I was dumb enough to forget to doublecheck.
I found it a little hard to find a 3 cycle for those little triangles too and i alswase seem to find 5 cycles that look like 3 cycles on a solved puzzle as well, it gets really annoying sometimes.
alaskajoe wrote:
So if anyone has time or is bored enough to check this alg and give me an opinion if it was good or bad I would be happy.
I suppose a good alg is one that's short and has easy set-up moves. What you found seems to be a (4,5) kind of commutator. 18 moves and i can't really comment on the set-ups because i haven't tried using it. i can however tell you it can be shortened to a slightly different (4,3) like this
CBH, BFI, CBH', BFI', ABC', DCG, ABC, BFI, CBH, BFI', CBH', ABC', DCG', ABC,
What i would use at the moment though is a rather different (it uses slice moves) (3,3) but Julian and Brandon both managed to find a (5,1). Same amount of moves but i couldn't find it so i gave up. My (3,3) is this
ABC&2, BFI', ABC'&2, AFB, CBH, AFB', ABC&2, BFI, ABC'&2, AFB, CBH', AFB'
The best way i have found to help understand algs in this notation is to just put them through the algorithm feature and use undo to see what they are actually doing.

P.S i know we don't normally post whole algs in this thread but in this case i don't see why not. Also all those numbers e.g /000001*/ aren't needed and neither is posting each move on a new line. Typing it like i did still works for copying straight into the algorithm bar and it saves allot of space so posts don't look needlessly long.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 3:33 pm 
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I noticed that one is not allowed to use more than 9499 (or 9999) moves to solve a puzzle. But this restriction limits some of my solves. I admit that my algorithms are not that efficient. Gelatinbrain, could you increase this limit to something like 99999, so that I will never have to worry about it? Thanks!

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Last edited by schuma on Tue Jun 08, 2010 11:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 8:12 pm 
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With regard to 1.2.3, I couldn't re-find my exact thin-triangle 3-cycle but this one is quite similar (same construction):

CDA,
ABC', AFB, ABC,
CDA',
DGK',
CDA,
ABC', AFB', ABC,
CDA',
DGK


(Gelatinbrain, I couldn't figure out how to add parenthesis to this statement and have the applet accept it. How can I add grouping syntax? I'd like to do something like [] or () or {}. Perhaps {} could be grouping chars for humans that have no meaning to the applet?)

As you can see, the ABC', AFB, ABC routine is actually just a truncated (1,1) because the AFB' isn't needed. The CDA is the setup and undo for the (1,1) and the DGK is the actual isolated piece movement. The entire algorithm is (A (X,Y) A', B) where (X, Y) has been shorted to be X Y X'.

I hadn't considered slice moves for trying to find an algorithm. Perhaps (5,1) can be beaten by integrating a slice move?

I tried to be very efficient in my 1.2.3 solve and I was happy with my 1421 moves. I think Julian used the exact same length routines and the same solve order so his 808 moves is just plain amazing.

Congrats on your solve Alaskajoe! I'm looking forward to getting back into solving puzzles in a few months. Work has me too busy lately to have the stamina to solve at night and on the weekends.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 3:08 pm 
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bmenrigh wrote:
(Gelatinbrain, I couldn't figure out how to add parenthesis to this statement and have the applet accept it. How can I add grouping syntax? I'd like to do something like [] or () or {}. Perhaps {} could be grouping chars for humans that have no meaning to the applet?)

[CDA,ABC', AFB, ABC,CDA',DGK']x2 repeats twice the sequence between '[' and ']', as I explained on page 28 of this thread. [] can be nested like [[a,b,c]x2,d,e]x3.

I removed the limitation of moves too. You can go beyond 9999 moves. In case of memory shortatage, you will see... 8-)

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 3:17 pm 
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I had a problem with the maximum amount of moves once, for the same reason as schuma, so I'm glad the limit's been taken off.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 1:24 am 
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gelatinbrain wrote:
I removed the limitation of moves too. You can go beyond 9999 moves. In case of memory shortatage, you will see... 8-)


Thank you, GB. I think now I can start working on the 1.4.7* puzzles. Once finished 1.4.7* and 3.9.2*, the only puzzles left to solve are the spheres.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 10:53 pm 
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I wanted to know what puzzle Schuma did that isn't listed so i looked around and found the 2D puzzle in the file menu.
This
Attachment:
2D puzzle.jpg
2D puzzle.jpg [ 90.19 KiB | Viewed 4733 times ]

Very similar to pyraminx crystal though the colour scheme was a little annoying and it got a bit confusing near the end when i realised my last layer (i used the centre circle as the last layer) edge tricks wouldn't work on hexagons. I was also wondering if anyone has seen a physical version of this puzzle as it doesn't look like it would be too hard to make. If i was a little more competent I'd try to make it myself.
Oh and the rotation was annoyingly slow for some reason.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 12:41 pm 
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I am in the 100+ :) Last puzzles were 2.1.1 2.1.2 and 2.1.3 which all work the same basically. I also solved 1.2.11 which is now only solved by schuma, Julian and me. But since it works just like 1.2.3 without corners I know at least one more person who could solve it. :roll:
The next I want to solve is 1.4.2. I have figured out enough to solve it. After that I migh look a bit into the edge turning tetrahedron, but I think my time has come to put the applet aside. I have been saying this many times to myself and others already but I don't want to go into the circle puzzles and everything else gets way to hard now. I wished I could pass Noah when I saw he is next in the list but that's a long way, I won't make it.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 12:07 am 
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I'm surprised it took me so long to notice but somebody named Kyle recently solved 6.1.1b (the 8-color sphere). I've read all of Doug's posts about the spheres and given 6.1.1b more than an hour of turns myself. Kyle, if you read this can you share some thoughts on the puzzle and drop some hints? Or maybe Michael? :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 12:46 am 
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Elwyn wrote:
I wanted to know what puzzle Schuma did that isn't listed so i looked around and found the 2D puzzle in the file menu.


How the hell do you get to the 2-d files GB? May you should put more direction on there on how to get to them so may you would get more traffic for longer peroids of time. Like me!!! :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 9:33 pm 
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@Darren Grewe http://users.skynet.be/gelatinbrain/Applets/Magic%20Polyhedra/hexagon_f0.htm
for some reason you can only get to it buy click the little "*" next to the number of the puzzles (i.e. 6.2.1*)

@GB
Will there soon be a 7th category of 2d puzzle like this one? :D


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 10:16 pm 
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So i tried 1.2.3 today. I came up with two, 3-cycles one for switching the points of the stars(23 moves) and another for switching corners(10 moves). I used the algorithm input box, since I don't have hours to work with. Got down to the last corner being oriented wrong. :evil: I just gave up, I had the same problem with 1.2.2. and it was a paint to fix it there. :roll:

¬ŅI was just wonder if anyone knows:
A) a simple way to fix this?
B) if all the corner turning dodecahedrons with corners have the same parity?


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 11:48 pm 
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boublez wrote:
So i tried 1.2.3 today. I came up with two, 3-cycles one for switching the points of the stars(23 moves) and another for switching corners(10 moves). I used the algorithm input box, since I don't have hours to work with. Got down to the last corner being oriented wrong. :evil: I just gave up, I had the same problem with 1.2.2. and it was a paint to fix it there. :roll:

¬ŅI was just wonder if anyone knows:
A) a simple way to fix this?
B) if all the corner turning dodecahedrons with corners have the same parity?

There is a simple (1,1) (four moves) routine to move corners around. It sounds like you already had a good way to orient them. With regards to a single corner twisted, it isn't "easy" to fix on 1.2.3 but there is a (X Y X' Y) x 2 routine that with a few setup moves is pretty clean. The most obvious way of fixing the parity is to just twist the corner into the right orientation and then fix everything else.

I don't have access to a Windows machine right now so I can't play with the applet but looking at the main page:

1.2.1 has "fake" corners that are easy to twist individually.
1.2.{6,11,12,13,14,15) don't have corners.

And all other 1.2.x puzzles look like they can have this corner twist parity issue. Several of the 1.3.x puzzles do too. Back on page 34 there was a discussion about the corner twist issue on 1.3.1. Some of those ideas apply to 1.2.3.

I hope you revisit 1.2.3, it's great to see solves on the more esoteric puzzles.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 4:55 pm 
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I just solved the 2D pyraminx crystal, and it was pretty fun to do! the colourscheme is a bit cunfusing so I drew it up and copied that.
The thing with 2D puzzles is the limitations. A dodecahedron always has 12 faces, but a plane paved with hexagons consists of infinite hexagons, which is impossible to solve. And because it needs to be limited, there appear partial hexagons, which cant turn, whilst on a dodecahedron, this would never be.

I say hexagons but I mean the intersecting circles on which the cuts have hexagonal symmetry.

I thought the turning-speed of this one was quite reasonable, could be a tad faster, but still ok. But when I clicked gelatinbrains link to the main 2D-page, the puzzles there were muuuch slower.

So gelatin, could you please speed those up a little?

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 9:11 pm 
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I'd also like to see a spherical helicopter cube, to enable the jumbling moves.

Imagine people actually being able to SOLVE one of the sphere puzzles!

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 10:57 pm 
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theVDude wrote:
I'd also like to see a spherical helicopter cube, to enable the jumbling moves.
I was thinking the same thing. I was also thinking about why there is no skewb ultimate or if not that at least a super skewb. And TomZ's dino skewb would be good as well as in 3.2.5 with dino turns.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 12:34 pm 
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Sjoerd wrote:
...

I thought the turning-speed of this one was quite reasonable, could be a tad faster, but still ok. But when I clicked gelatinbrains link to the main 2D-page, the puzzles there were muuuch slower.
...


where is there a link to the 2-D page


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 5:34 am 
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gelatinbrain gave a link about halfway down this page

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 7:50 am 
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Woot. I solve 1.2.13. I did it in 1141 moves, which beat schuma, and puts me tied with 9 others in 12th place on the fewest moves board. WOOT! :mrgreen:


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 8:50 am 
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Attachment:
oh come on!.jpg
oh come on!.jpg [ 119.13 KiB | Viewed 4476 times ]
So i take the whole no solvers thing means i have to figure out this stupid parity by myself right? I wonder if all three colour variants get it, i might try the 6 colour for a bit to see.

Edit: the six colour obviously doesn't due to identical pieces. However perhaps this is the reason there are no solvers.
Attachment:
ahh.jpg
ahh.jpg [ 116.91 KiB | Viewed 4473 times ]
solved i'm pretty sure but not registering. Perhaps GELATINBRAIN should look into this.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 9:33 am 
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Elwyn wrote:
Attachment:
oh come on!.jpg
So i take the whole no solvers thing means i have to figure out this stupid parity by myself right? I wonder if all three colour variants get it, i might try the 6 colour for a bit to see.

Edit: the six colour obviously doesn't due to identical pieces. However perhaps this is the reason there are no solvers.
Attachment:
ahh.jpg
solved i'm pretty sure but not registering. Perhaps GELATINBRAIN should look into this.

Make sure to copy the certificate at the bottom of the page.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 9:42 am 
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theVDude wrote:
Make sure to copy the certificate at the bottom of the page.
The certificate option is only available in the event the applet recognises the puzzle as solved. In earlier situations like this the only thing gelatinbrain could do was to manually adjust the score and then look into the code to see what was causing the problem. I have sent him a pm about it for now that is all i can do.

Edit: Ohhh i'm so stupid!! I got so caught up on colour i didn't notice that even thought it is solved colour wise not all the cuts line up! I thought it was a little too easy hahaha i guess i'll try to fix that now.

This puzzle is out to get me! I now have it completely reduced and completely "in shape" and yet somehow have two reduced edges (red green and red brown) swapped.
Attachment:
parity.jpg
parity.jpg [ 115.31 KiB | Viewed 4450 times ]

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 5:22 pm 
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Elwyn wrote:
Attachment:
ahh.jpg
solved i'm pretty sure but not registering. Perhaps GELATINBRAIN should look into this.


Mmm,... Solved color wise but still remains jumbled. Indeed an interesting case. I didn't expect such a case. But this should be judged as "solved".
Congratulation! 8-)

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