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 Post subject: Mixup Cube
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 2:18 pm 
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Oskar has done it again :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzgnpf2URhQ

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 Post subject: Re: Mixup Cube
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 2:19 pm 
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You beat me to it:P This is a amazing puzzle, and a fully functional 3x3:P

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 Post subject: Re: Mixup Cube
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 2:20 pm 
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It's just insane, how on earth do you go about making that?!

He sure knows how to give people headaches :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Mixup Cube
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 2:21 pm 
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Sven wrote:
You beat me to it:P This is a amazing puzzle, and a fully functional 3x3:P


:lol: Finally i did, this is the puzzle im going to buy off of shapeways so i was looking out for it for a while :)

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 Post subject: Re: Mixup Cube
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 2:26 pm 
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GuitarSD wrote:
Sven wrote:
You beat me to it:P This is a amazing puzzle, and a fully functional 3x3:P


:lol: Finally i did, this is the puzzle im going to buy off of shapeways so i was looking out for it for a while :)

You are going to buy this? That would be amazing :D

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 Post subject: Re: Mixup Cube
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 2:35 pm 
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When I had my first Rubik's cube, I would always try to do this move, and now it's finally possible :shock:

I don't even want to think of the mechanics behind all of his puzzles, haha.


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 Post subject: Re: Mixup Cube
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 2:37 pm 
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If this man and Tony Fisher had a battle of the puzzles, the world would truly explode with Wowness!

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 Post subject: Re: Mixup Cube
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 2:41 pm 
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Whenever I play with my 3x3x3, I position it in similar ways and fantasize about a puzzle where these moves are possible. Now it is a reality! :D

-Grant

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 Post subject: Re: Mixup Cube
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 2:54 pm 
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That is incredible! I did not expect it to turn like that. When he did it, my jaw dropped...literally. WOW! I want one...correction.....I NEED ONE!!! :shock:

- Billy


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 Post subject: Re: Mixup Cube
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 3:03 pm 
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Just like Oskar said, as a concept, this was patented many years ago.
But this is the first time it is made to work so robust, so beautifully.

This design really gives a new dimension to the 3x3x3.

:D


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 Post subject: Re: Mixup Cube
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 3:13 pm 
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That puzzle can keep me occupied for weeks! Amazing!

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 Post subject: Re: Mixup Cube
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 4:08 pm 
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Wow. I think this is the best of Bram's/Oscar's recent puzzles.
Followed by Fairly Twisted and the Uncanny Cube.

Thomas

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 Post subject: Re: Mixup Cube
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 4:31 pm 
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Attachment:
Shocked.gif
Shocked.gif [ 5.26 KiB | Viewed 15016 times ]

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Last edited by KelvinS on Thu Jul 16, 2009 6:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Mixup Cube
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 5:07 pm 
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Very interesting, something that comes out of the ordinary :shock: :shock:


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 Post subject: Re: Mixup Cube
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 6:40 pm 
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*Picks up jaw off floor. Opens mouth to speak, but nothing comes out.*

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 Post subject: Re: Mixup Cube
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 7:17 pm 
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That is very neat. I have been waiting for this puzzle to be prototyped for a while now. It's so cool. I hope to see the Redi or Fadi Cube prototyped next.

I'm also interested in the Caution Cube. I can't quite picture its movement.


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 Post subject: Re: Mixup Cube
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 7:22 pm 
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Notoday wrote:
When I had my first Rubik's cube, I would always try to do this move, and now it's finally possible :shock:

I don't even want to think of the mechanics behind all of his puzzles, haha.


haha same here and I would always thing about how awesome a rubiks cube would be if it could make that turn

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 Post subject: Re: Mixup Cube
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 11:25 pm 
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REplayed video! Scratched my head! Started crying! Clicked subscribe ! :scrambled:

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 Post subject: Re: Mixup Cube
PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 3:19 am 
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This is absolutely awesome.

I finally dug into Oskar's site and figured out how he made this and it is WAY simpler than it looks. Using an ingenious simple overlapping mechanism Oskar has basically fooled everyone into thinking the cube is turning around the edges. Don't get me wrong, a cube that turns around edges in the same manner as the Mixup Cube would be mathematically identical to the Mixup Cube from the outside, but the internal design I assume everyone is trying to picture (as I myself was at first) is probably way too complicated.

I'm not sure if Oskar wants everyone to know how this puzzle works, but then again I figured it out just by looking at links and pictures he provided so....

How about this: I'll just give a hint:
This puzzle has ONLY 3 axes of rotation - the same 3 axes a rubik's cube has. :wink:
(or more accurately the same 3 axes a 2x2x2 has. If you were to follow a strict mathematical pattern and procedure to develop this puzzle in its true form, you would start with 9 axes: the 3 from a standard cube and the 6 from a helicopter / 24 cube)

Very, very ingeniously simple mechanism Oskar! Congrats :D

Peace,
Matt Galla

PS The mathematics of the "true" form of this puzzle is very closely related to this as well as this or any puzzle that demonstrates the strange relationship between a cube and rhombic dodecahedron hybrid core based puzzle 8-) - but like I said, Oskar found an ingenious way around using all of the messy geometry that comes when combining the two movement types.


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 Post subject: Re: Mixup Cube
PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 5:56 am 
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Wow, the best puzzle Oskar made so far. I really want to know what the inside looks like. When he first did one of the special turns, I thought: Hey, that´s pretty amazing. But when he did some more, and a couple more, my eyes got wider and wider. Amazing. Not to begin about solving this thing.

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 Post subject: Re: Mixup Cube
PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 9:59 am 
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That is, well, they don't make adjectives that describe it. It's the sort of puzzle that makes me wish I had a spare $613.58 lying around.

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 Post subject: Re: Mixup Cube
PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 4:46 pm 
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Amazing puzzle! I love the bit at the 1min mark, where it changes shape.

I want to be reincarnated as Oskar's table.


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 Post subject: Re: Mixup Cube
PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 5:28 pm 
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So it's really a 2x2 with essentially a sliding puzzle built around it.

It's very ingenious!

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 Post subject: Re: Mixup Cube
PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 5:40 pm 
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I want to see a void version of this puzzle now, please... :P

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 Post subject: Re: Mixup Cube
PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 6:28 pm 
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Oh my god, somebody has finally created a JUMBLEABLE VERSION OF A 3X3! *dies*

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 Post subject: Re: Mixup Cube
PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 3:29 am 
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This puzzle for a long time already has invented and Russian schoolboy Sergey Makarov has created!
In 1992 it is described in the old book devoted to games and puzzles volume 3.
Image

Here references to those pages where the action and design principle is described,
And as it is offered to make it independently.
http://i387.photobucket.com/albums/oo317/grigr/Scan2.jpg
http://i387.photobucket.com/albums/oo317/grigr/Scan3.jpg
http://i387.photobucket.com/albums/oo317/grigr/Scan4.jpg
http://i387.photobucket.com/albums/oo317/grigr/Scan5.jpg

Here the puzzle which is described can to work as 3*3 cube,
As its layers can move on 45 degrees, thus
The centres and edges can be interchanged the position

--------- Added ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Patent 1983-1985
http://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicat ... cale=en_EP

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Last edited by grigr on Sat Feb 08, 2014 9:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Mixup Cube
PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 7:00 am 
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Oskar really plays in his own league. The ideas are very unconventional and show up new ways to think about further puzzle inventions.

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 Post subject: Re: Mixup Cube
PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 7:10 am 
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I have this book and recognized the same idea.
Another close relative - Mozaika puzzle. Instead of 45 degrees, Mozaika slices can be turned 30 degrees.
If to decide from the video, it is the best implementation of this idea.

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 Post subject: Re: Mixup Cube
PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 10:33 am 
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I'd like to add to what Juozas has said. The first appearance this puzzle has made in Russian youth magazine "Junyi Tehnik" ("Young Engineer"). It was the issue 9/1984 and it can be seen here: http://jt-arxiv.narod.ru/magazin84.html That's where I read about it first back in 1984. Then I've read about it in the book Jouzas has mentioned but I decided that something it missing from the description of how to make it, like part of the text disappeared. Much later I have found the patent for the puzzle: http://v3.espacenet.com/publicationDeta ... 1088&KC=&F

Oscar's mechanism it very logical, it's exactly like I had been thinking of making this puzzle! Congratulations! :)

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 Post subject: Re: Mixup Cube
PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 11:36 am 
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Thanks Aleksey, very interesting magazine, I will check out the other years too. :)

And here is a snapshot of the article.

Attachment:
3x3x3_45_degree.jpg
3x3x3_45_degree.jpg [ 93.25 KiB | Viewed 13772 times ]


:)


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 Post subject: Re: Mixup Cube
PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 12:21 pm 
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It would be interesting to know, if Oskar knew about this or if he reinvented the puzzle.

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 Post subject: Re: Mixup Cube
PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 2:00 pm 
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Frank Tiex wrote:
It would be interesting to know, if Oskar knew about this or if he reinvented the puzzle.

I think it says in the video description that he knew it was thought of before, but he remade it.

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 Post subject: Re: Mixup Cube
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 10:05 pm 
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Congratulations !
And, what a coincidence ! X-D

Just now, I and Mr.Okamoto are making the cube together.
The trigger is from my Russian friend Vladimir, and already Mr.Okamoto made three trials to make smoothly movement cube.
(The core is his original, not completely same of the Russian patented inner.)

And now I'm duplicating some of parts of it, adjusting to fit for duplication, with taking some progress photos.

I and Mr.Okamoto and Vladimir consulted each, and I'll open up almost photos includes inner photos at my site in future. :)


Attachments:
File comment: Rotating image
Hedgehog_try3_02.jpg
Hedgehog_try3_02.jpg [ 6.99 KiB | Viewed 13081 times ]

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 Post subject: Re: Mixup Cube
PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 3:06 pm 
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SaiyanKirby wrote:
Oh my god, somebody has finally created a JUMBLEABLE VERSION OF A 3X3! *dies*


I had to think about that a bit but yes, I believe this does qualify as a jumbleable puzzle. If you approach it as a bandaged puzzle and try to unbandage it you run into the same issues you do with the combination of the 2x2x2 and the 24-Cube(Little Chop) where rotations of 45degrees are allowed.

Juozas Granskas wrote:
I have this book and recognized the same idea.
Another close relative - Mozaika puzzle. Instead of 45 degrees, Mozaika slices can be turned 30 degrees.


Interesting... I've had one of these for years:
Image
and till just now I've never thought of it as a jumbleable puzzle. But it IS!!! I wonder... is this the first mass produced jumbleable puzzle? I know there are some 2D jumbleable puzzles out there that may be just as old but if the Mozaika puzzle isn't the oldest mass produced jumbleable puzzle maybe its the oldest mass produced 3D jumbleable puzzle.

Great work on this Mixup Cube Oskar!!! I love ALL of your puzzles but I think this is my favorite. I'd love to see this mass produced.

And for those math types here, I'm curious... how do the number of possible states for this puzzle compare with a normal 3x3x3? And I doubt this question can be answered but if you had god's algorithm do the additional moves this puzzle has available to it make it easier or harder (in terms of the number of moves required) to solve?

Carl

P.S. Anyone ever mod there Mozaika puzzle into a cube? A Mixup Cube and a cubic Mozaika puzzle would make a GREAT set!!!

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 Post subject: Re: Mixup Cube
PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 4:56 pm 
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I don't think the Mozaika would be jumbleable - if I had designed the puzzle, anyway, the corners would be a 2x2 mechanism, so when you turn the opposite layers 30 degrees, it's the same as just turning the middle layer. Is that how it works? (Has anyone ever taken one apart, for that matter?)

I think that since they said they used a 2x2 for the core on this cube, it might not technically be jumbleable because of this same concept - all the non-corners are mechanically the same piece, are they not? They're like the tiles on the Mozaika in this case.

(I could be wrong of course. :))


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 Post subject: Re: Mixup Cube
PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 5:06 pm 
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No, this is not a jumble puzzle. No more so than the Rubik's Cube is bandaged because it can't do the move which this one allows.

Now, if one of the *faces* could do a 45 degree turn and allow an adjacent face to turn, then yes, most definitely that would be jumbleable, but since in this one the faces are restricted to 90 degree turns and only the centers can do 45 degree turns, it forms a proper closed group. This would be a lot more obvious if it were 'un-modded' to a rhombicuboctahedron.

There's a funny similar thing going on with the dino cube, which almost looks like it should form a closed group if you could rotate the faces 60 degrees instead of 120. Maybe there's an interesting jumble puzzle which allows some of that.


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 Post subject: Re: Mixup Cube
PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 5:57 pm 
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Bram wrote:
No, this is not a jumble puzzle. No more so than the Rubik's Cube is bandaged because it can't do the move which this one allows.


I agree the Rubik's Cube isn't bandaged. That can been seen here:
http://www.jaapsch.net/puzzles/sphere.htm?blue=100&sym=2&angle=330,105,355
The Sphere is cut by 6 planes that form the circles seen on the surface of the sphere and that's it. I don't think the mechanism or design of a puzzle is a factor in rather it is jumbleable or not.

However your Mixup Cube IS either bandaged or jumbleable. It does have additional cuts in the center layers that are not propagated into the face layers. If you un-bandaged those cuts the puzzle would look something like this:

Image

And I believe this puzzle too would allow rotations outside of its rest state so you could try to un-bandage those and the process would go on forever till the puzzle turned to dust. In my mind that is the definition of jumbleable. See this discussion:

http://twistypuzzles.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=11126

Bram wrote:
Now, if one of the *faces* could do a 45 degree turn and allow an adjacent face to turn, then yes, most definitely that would be jumbleable, but since in this one the faces are restricted to 90 degree turns and only the centers can do 45 degree turns, it forms a proper closed group. This would be a lot more obvious if it were 'un-modded' to a rhombicuboctahedron.


The odd or jumbleable turns cannot be made until a center is turned by 45 degrees. In other words this type of turn is bandaged in the rest state of this puzzle. Un-bandage that type of turn and you could rotate a face by 45 degrees and get the type of turn you mention above. I agree this is a closed group but if I understand what you mean by that isn't the 24-Cube also a closed group and it is jumbleable?

By the way, I do agree this puzzle could be made as a rhombicuboctahedron and not be shape changing but as pointing out elsewhere shape changing does NOT equal jumbleable.

Bram wrote:
There's a funny similar thing going on with the dino cube, which almost looks like it should form a closed group if you could rotate the faces 60 degrees instead of 120. Maybe there's an interesting jumble puzzle which allows some of that.


Time to go home and dig out my dino cube and see if I can picture what you mean.

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 Post subject: Re: Mixup Cube
PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 9:59 pm 
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Carl, you're demanding a much greater degree of uniformity out of a puzzle than is generally required. Just because there's a conceivable extension of a puzzle which isn't a closed group, as is the case with the red slices you added, doesn't meat that the puzzle itself isn't a closed group, because everything has a non-closed extension that can be made to it.

The 24-cube is a jumble puzzle because it allows jumble moves. If you were to somehow construct a thing which looked like a 24-cube but allowed the 180 degree moves while somehow physically blocking the jumble moves then it wouldn't be a jumble puzzle. It all has to do with what the puzzle itself actually allows.


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 Post subject: Re: Mixup Cube
PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 10:13 pm 
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I am complete amazed by the appearance of this puzzle. But even more amazed is that I do not remember any discussion or mention of it on this forum, patent lists, or even in the cube lovers archives from back in the day.

I wonder what other inventions from the 80's are out there we've never come across?

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 Post subject: Re: Mixup Cube
PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 6:22 pm 
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Bram wrote:
Carl, you're demanding a much greater degree of uniformity out of a puzzle than is generally required. Just because there's a conceivable extension of a puzzle which isn't a closed group, as is the case with the red slices you added, doesn't meat that the puzzle itself isn't a closed group, because everything has a non-closed extension that can be made to it.


I'm not trying to put any demands on the puzzle. The puzzle is the puzzle and a great one it is. Its the vocabulary that I'm trying to put some demands on. Terms like jumbleable and bandaged I'm still not sure if they are adequately defined. And I'm thinking maybe I should move this discussion here:
http://twistypuzzles.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=11126

Your puzzle (the Mixup Cube) in the rest state has "cuts" that don't completely penetrate the puzzle. Isn't that the definition of a "bandaged puzzle"? If you agree on that point... do you consider the Mixup Cube a case of a Jumbleable puzzle that has been bandaged to disallow the Jumbleable moves?

My thinking is that a bandaged puzzle should be able to be completely un-bandaged. If that can't be done without turning the puzzle to dust then its a Jumbleable puzzle.

Also could you define what you mean by closed group? Specifically why is the 24-Cube with the jumbleable moves allowed NOT a closed group? I'd agree its a bigger closed group then the one describing a 24-Cube that didn't allow jumbleable moves but its still a finite group... isn't it? Is finite and closed the same thing in this context?

Bram wrote:
The 24-cube is a jumble puzzle because it allows jumble moves.


I like that definition of a jumbleable puzzle... now define a jumbleable move?

Bram wrote:
If you were to somehow construct a thing which looked like a 24-cube but allowed the 180 degree moves while somehow physically blocking the jumble moves then it wouldn't be a jumble puzzle. It all has to do with what the puzzle itself actually allows.


Agreed... Think of a solved 24-Cube. Call the state of all the cuts in that position the puzzle's rest state. If the puzzle had to be turned such that it had returned to its "rest state" before any more moves could be made than I'd agree it is no longer a jumbleable puzzle. Despite the physical blocking I wouldn't call it bandaged either.

Looking at the Mixup Cube in that light there are moves allowed when the Mixup Cube is in its "rest state", those are the moves that a normal 3x3x3 has. However your puzzle allows moves when the puzzle is between "rest states", i.e. when two opposite faces are rotated by 45 degrees. At this point some of your 3x3x3 cuts align with your bandaged cuts to allow a type of rotation that the 3x3x3 doesn't have. So why isn't this considered a jumbleable move?

In my mind the difference between a bandaged puzzle and a jumbleable puzzle is that a bandaged puzzle can be un-bandaged completely with a finite number of cuts. If one attempts to "un-bandage" a jumbleable puzzle an infinite number of cuts would be required.

Carl

P.S. Light bulb has just gone off... The Mixup Cube when two opposite faces are rotated by 45 degrees IS back in its rest state!!! Your bandaged cuts become 3x3x3 like cuts and what were your 3x3x3 cuts in the center layer are now your bandaged cuts. Hmmm... I guess that means this is a bandaged puzzle that can't be un-bandaged either. Off to make a post here:http://twistypuzzles.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=11126
let's see if we can move this over there...

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Last edited by wwwmwww on Fri Jul 24, 2009 8:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Mixup Cube
PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 1:54 am 
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wwwmwww wrote:
Bram wrote:
The 24-cube is a jumble puzzle because it allows jumble moves.


I like that definition of a jumbleable puzzle... now define a jumbleable move?


I would consider a "jumbling" or "jumblable" move to be one that moves the outer faces of a puzzle into an asymmetric orientation.

It's a pretty simple (simplistic?) definition, and it places some simple 3x3x3 shape mods into the "jumbleable" category, but think about it this way: when you see a scarmbled Axis Cube or megamorphix, would you call them "Jumbled?" These states are still in the closed "3x3x3" set, but appear to be "jumbled."


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 Post subject: Re: Mixup Cube
PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 2:22 am 
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shape changing ≠ jumbling

I agree with Carl's definition.

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 Post subject: Re: Mixup Cube
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 8:50 am 
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So, the core is a 45 degree rhomicuboctahedron, only extended into a cube. I understand the cuncept now, but how is it designed to work?

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