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 Post subject: 9*9*9(edited)
PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 12:10 pm 
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[removed link]
It's not my production. I only share this news and will not reply any question.

here's another link to show the law of the froum MF8
http://bbs.mf8.com.cn/forumdisplay.php?fid=53


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Last edited by tonylmd on Wed Jul 22, 2009 10:10 am, edited 2 times in total.
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 Post subject: Re: 9*9*9
PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 12:13 pm 
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IT LIVES

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 Post subject: Re: 9*9*9
PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 12:19 pm 
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I wonder what mr Verdes thinks about it 8-)

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 Post subject: Re: 9*9*9
PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 12:20 pm 
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woo..you faster than me! :shock:

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 Post subject: Re: 9*9*9
PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 12:21 pm 
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The Fool on the Hill wrote:
IT LIVES


It certainly lives, it actually always did, but this is blatantly stolen by the Verdes patent.
I hope there is a way to block this type of "advertising".

Just one question to the chinese people here. Are you proud of this?


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 Post subject: Re: 9*9*9
PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 2:10 pm 
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wow...

and i'm sure that v-cubes will release then in few weeks

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 Post subject: Re: 9*9*9
PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 2:07 am 
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Hmmm what's the consensus here? This a unique puzzle using someone else's concept, but it isn't a clone is it?

We have 4x4x4's and 5x5x5s with different mechanisms from Rubik's and these seem to pass. Here we have a different puzzle with a borrowed concept. Is this similar to a holey megaminx borrowing the concept from the void cube?

The lines seem a little blurred here and it would be good to get tightened up what is knock off and what isn't.

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 Post subject: Re: 9*9*9
PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 2:09 am 
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Well, this would be a Knock Off because while it may not be a carbon copy of a physical puzzle, it is a carbon copy of the drawings of a physical puzzle.

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 Post subject: Re: 9*9*9
PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 2:15 am 
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sausage wrote:
Hmmm what's the consensus here? This a unique puzzle using someone else's concept, but it isn't a clone is it?

We have 4x4x4's and 5x5x5s with different mechanisms from Rubik's and these seem to pass. Here we have a different puzzle with a borrowed concept. Is this similar to a holey megaminx borrowing the concept from the void cube?

The lines seem a little blurred here and it would be good to get tightened up what is knock off and what isn't.



Well, for many puzzles, the patent has expired, while the copyright issues are indeed blurred.
However, in this case, it has an active patent and is being manufactured (and about to be sold)
before even the original one comes out. In the Rubik's 360 case (to my knowledge) there was not even a patent.
Here there is. So it is a much worse case. It is not about someone manufacturing for fun (which in many countries
is already illegal), we are seeing mass production here and direct hit to Verdes by unlawfully using his patent.

Creating a Petaminx or other unequal cuboids nxmxk, are a different story, as they are not covered by the patent.
But the above is just showing people who care about no ethics or other designer's work.


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Last edited by kastellorizo on Sun Jun 21, 2009 2:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 9*9*9
PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 2:16 am 
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It's definitely a knockoff. The V-cube patent has been around for quite a while in many countries, and explicitly details the mechanism of a 9x9, the same mechanism in this cube. While the V-cube 9 may not have been actually produced yet by Verdes, there is no doubt in my mind that this Chinese copy qualifies as a knockoff.

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 Post subject: Re: 9*9*9
PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 3:03 am 
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I agree 100% with Pantazis and Michael. I definitely consider this a knockoff.

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 Post subject: Re: 9*9*9
PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 3:06 am 
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kastellorizo wrote:
The Fool on the Hill wrote:
IT LIVES


It certainly lives, it actually always did, but this is blatantly stolen by the Verdes patent.
I hope there is a way to block this type of "advertising".

Just one question to the chinese people here. Are you proud of this?


Pantazis

For me, as a Hong Konger, I'm not proud of this.
I felt very very unset when I heard this news
I hate those chinese that copy things and sell them
They never think of how the patent's owner feel

And that's one of the reasons why lots of people in Hong Kong, for me also, claim themselves "Hong Konger" but not "Chinese"


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 Post subject: Re: 9*9*9
PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 3:11 am 
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This is absolutely a knockoff, and while it is a knockoff being advertised, it only makes me more excited for when the REAL V9 is released, which will hopefully be soon. This KO post revitalized my anticipation for new Verdes products rather than products of lesser quality that are obviously based on patented schematics.

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 Post subject: Re: 9*9*9
PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 3:19 am 
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beachboy wrote:
For me, as a Hong Konger, I'm not proud of this.
I felt very very unset when I heard this news
I hate those chinese that copy things and sell them
They never think of how the patent's owner feel

And that's one of the reasons why lots of people in Hong Kong, for me also, claim themselves "Hong Konger" but not "Chinese"


I have many chinese friends here in Australia and also in Singapore, Malaysia and Indonesia, and they all agree that this is wrong.
Thank you for your reply, it helps to make things more clear, and for others to assess and understand the situation better.


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 Post subject: Re: 9*9*9
PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 4:14 am 
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Thank you all for the responses. Can any of our chinese members please tell me if the link provided to the mf8 site gives any indication for a person on who to contact or how to contact someone in order get one of these puzzles?

If it does, I will need to remove it.

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 Post subject: Re: 9*9*9
PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 4:26 am 
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sausage wrote:
Can any of our chinese members please tell me if the link provided to the mf8 site gives any indication for a person on who to contact or how to contact someone in order get one of these puzzles?

The factory producing these is named.

The Chinese perspective is interesting, with a general misunderstanding of who has exactly what rights to produce what.

factory spokesman wrote:
As for copyright questions, our factory has people for that. Up to now Verdes hasn't produced a 9x9 cube, because the initial investment is too big, normal people won't take the risk, including Verdes. As for our 9x9 cube, I can say we simply looked at the V7 and added to this basic structure. Making this 9x9 cube, do we intend to make money? Maybe many people will say, with this product you can't make money, the market is too small, the investment too large.
In producing this cube, it is a hope, to give a valuable collectable to people that like cubes. As for making money, this product is a losing investment.


Unrelated, there seems to be a problem posting responses containing URLs.


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 Post subject: Re: 9*9*9
PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 6:38 am 
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Cor, um... wow. It looks rather grubby.


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 Post subject: Re: 9*9*9
PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 7:34 am 
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I agree with Bounb, it does look really tatty.

But by saying that I'm over looking the fact that it is a 9X9X9!!!!


Is this an indication to when the proper V-Cube ones come out? I really hope so :D


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 Post subject: Re: 9*9*9
PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 7:37 am 
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This is really awful. Whoever has built this clearly feels no shame. I hope these criminals are arrested!

Someone get the puzzle ninja on the phone!

Also,

DoUd0uN3 wrote:
wow...

and i'm sure that v-cubes will release then in few weeks


You shouldn't say things like this with no facts to back it up... This is how rumors get started.

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 Post subject: Re: 9*9*9
PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 9:06 am 
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Scott Bedard wrote:
Someone get the puzzle ninja on the phone!


His SCHU (single curly hair unit) is already waving, and his balls are already glowing near those criminals! :wink:


Scott Bedard wrote:
DoUd0uN3 wrote:
wow... and i'm sure that v-cubes will release then in few weeks


You shouldn't say things like this with no facts to back it up... This is how rumors get started.


Excactly. I also have been told of no such plans for the moment.


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 Post subject: Re: 9*9*9
PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 9:06 am 
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Scott Bedard wrote:
Someone get the puzzle ninja on the phone!


His SCHU (single curly hair unit) is already waving, and his balls are already glowing near those criminals! :wink:


Scott Bedard wrote:
DoUd0uN3 wrote:
wow... and i'm sure that v-cubes will release then in few weeks


You shouldn't say things like this with no facts to back it up... This is how rumors get started.


Excactly. I have been told of no such plans for the moment.


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 Post subject: Re: 9*9*9
PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 9:56 am 
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kastellorizo wrote:
Excactly. I have been told of no such plans for the moment.

Pantazis

Well you kept the Holey Megaminx for a secret to!:D

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 Post subject: Re: 9*9*9
PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 10:11 am 
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Scott Bedard wrote:

DoUd0uN3 wrote:
wow...

and i'm sure that v-cubes will release then in few weeks


You shouldn't say things like this with no facts to back it up... This is how rumors get started.



yeah, you are right..

sorry..

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 Post subject: Re: 9*9*9
PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 10:52 am 
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Sven wrote:
kastellorizo wrote:
Excactly. I have been told of no such plans for the moment.

Pantazis

Well you kept the Holey Megaminx for a secret to!:D



Fair enough, but in this case I wish I knew something more!

I spoke with Konstantinos a couple of days ago, and there are no such plans.

My guess, is that they will *at least* try to have both the 8x8x8 and 9x9x9
ready, instead of going the "easy" way and producing the 9x9x9 directly.
And this certainly proves who is into this for the money (i.e. the chinese
factory) and who is not.

;)


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 Post subject: Re: 9*9*9
PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 11:12 am 
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about a week ago i contacted the guy selling knock off 7X7's and inquired into whether or not he would have a 9x9. His repsonse was it will take him a month to produce a copy as soon as the official v-cube is released.

just thought I'd share that bit of info.


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 Post subject: Re: 9*9*9
PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 11:48 am 
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Bounb wrote:
Cor, um... wow. It looks rather grubby.


That's probably because it's not one off the production line but a prototype that has been passed around, examined, checked, dropped etc. You don't just suddenly get pristine puzzles out of thin air.

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 Post subject: Re: 9*9*9
PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 12:22 pm 
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Yeah, I agree it's probably a prototype. I was half using it as a metaphor as in "dirty money", to reflect the illegal nature of the product.


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 Post subject: Re: 9*9*9
PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 1:05 pm 
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Surely it would only be breeching any copyright laws if the mechanism is the same? What If Mr V's Mechanism isnt like that one


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 Post subject: Re: 9*9*9
PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 1:09 pm 
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CubeDude1234 wrote:
Surely it would only be breeching any copyright laws if the mechanism is the same? What If Mr V's Mechanism isnt like that one


It is the same mechanism. Doh.

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 Post subject: Re: 9*9*9
PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 1:37 pm 
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CubeDude1234 wrote:
Surely it would only be breeching any copyright laws if the mechanism is the same? What If Mr V's Mechanism isnt like that one


I wonder why you are saying that. Even if someone had never seen the photos,
it will be easy to understand that other mechanisms in the past have never come
close even to a 6x6x6.

Please stop making false "assumptions" regarding copyrights, trademarks,
or patents, especially obvious ones...


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 Post subject: Re: 9*9*9
PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 1:44 pm 
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I want one.

But a real Verdes one, not a KO.

My 2c. :-)

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 Post subject: Re: 9*9*9
PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 4:30 pm 
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CubeDude1234 wrote:
Surely it would only be breeching any copyright laws if the mechanism is the same? What If Mr V's Mechanism isnt like that one



The V-Cube 9x9x9 mechanism is well known on this forum through the patent diagrams.

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 Post subject: Re: 9*9*9
PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 7:44 pm 
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It's very clear looking at the last photo that this is a direct rip-off of Verdes' design.

And that crap about not making any money on these and they're making these for collectors is just that- crap. Nobody is going to spend the money to machine injection molds to satisfy a few collectors. They'll make a killing on these mainly because Verdes doesn't even have theirs out yet. People will say they're not buying the knock-offs and then buy them anyway because there's no "real" V-9 available, and who wouldn't want to try one out? "I'll buy a real V9 when they come out" is going to be the excuse. I won't deny that I'd consider it. In a heartbeat, I would buy a real V9 over a knockoff, but as I said....


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 Post subject: Re: 9*9*9
PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 8:19 pm 
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flambore wrote:
It's very clear looking at the last photo that this is a direct rip-off of Verdes' design.

there is actually some diference betwen the V9 and this one..
to sart with so doesn't the V9 pieces have that bump that you can see on the corner base.

and allso if you look at the last picture so can you see that the third layer doesn't hang over the second layer as they do on the V9.

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 Post subject: Re: 9*9*9
PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 8:52 pm 
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First of all, I'm not condoning this at all. Don't anyone take this post that way!

As for these being cheap, Guess again! They are estimated to be sold at almost 5 times the cost of the v-7's. That is good news for Verdes I would think. How many people (on ebay) are willing to drop that much on a puzzle. A lot of older rare puzzles don't sell for that much.

My guess is that these will sell to the "newly rich" in China but won't do so well on worldwide auction sites simply because of the price. I hope the novelty factor of these doesn't take off and spread sales.

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 Post subject: Re: 9*9*9
PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 9:36 pm 
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katsmom wrote:
As for these being cheap, Guess again! They are estimated to be sold at almost over 9000 times the cost of the v-7's.


fixed

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 Post subject: Re: 9*9*9
PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 9:51 pm 
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My point was, the KO 7's and 6's were cheaper. This one is rumored to be much more expensive. I've been given 5x as a rough estimate. It could be even higher.

Sorry if I have offended, and if necessary, take away my post Wayne.

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 Post subject: Re: 9*9*9
PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 9:54 pm 
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Of course it'll be higher initially. It's the only one available. When/if V-Cubes releases the 'official' version (which I hope will be soon!!!) the price will drop .....yada yada yada.

I would like to see the 888 released by Verdes at the same time. Maybe they'll shock everyone and launch the 10 and 11 :shock:


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 Post subject: Re: 9*9*9
PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 9:56 pm 
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In my opinion, this is the dumbest puzzle they could have ever ripped off. Look at all the other amazing puzzles that would have sold like crazy and the tooling costs would have been cheap.

This to me is just plain stupid.


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 Post subject: Re: 9*9*9
PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 10:00 pm 
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Agreed with tattooed. I'd like to get a v6 and maybe a v7, but more for solving than collecting. I don't think I'd like to get anything above that. It'd just take too long.

Heck, a 7x7x7 would take me too long.

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 Post subject: Re: 9*9*9
PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 10:02 pm 
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and no one got my reference....

back on topic, I will NOT be buying this

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 Post subject: Re: 9*9*9
PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 10:05 pm 
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Drewseph wrote:
and no one got my reference....

back on topic, I will NOT be buying this

I did!

It's over 9000!?!?! IMPOSSIBLE!!!! :D


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 Post subject: Re: 9*9*9
PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 1:50 am 
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olz wrote:
flambore wrote:
It's very clear looking at the last photo that this is a direct rip-off of Verdes' design.

there is actually some diference betwen the V9 and this one..
to sart with so doesn't the V9 pieces have that bump that you can see on the corner base.

and allso if you look at the last picture so can you see that the third layer doesn't hang over the second layer as they do on the V9.



Has the concept changed? I will answer for you: no!
What you mention here is the same excuses that the copycats are using to steal ideas.
Just because someone "added" a bump, "sanded" a piece, or chopped a piece into two,
does NOT change the fact that they are infringing a valid patent.


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 Post subject: Re: 9*9*9
PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 2:51 am 
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Pantazis,

I do not know exactly what the 9x9x9 mechanism is. But the patents are not about concepts. They are about concrete implementations (yes, they may cover other implementations to a certain degree, but not broadly). And they are published for the exact purpose for others to see if they can improve on them, or do something different and better. That said, even small changes can be significant to justify a new patent, for instance. That's up to the bodies who make these kind of determinations.

Again, I don't know what the real situation here is, but I do have a feeling that you go a little overboard with your striking comments. :oops:

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 Post subject: Re: 9*9*9
PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 3:24 am 
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Verdes have a patent on the 'concept' of the design. Basically, it is anything built in that style- that is why Drew had to clear with them before making the teraminx. It utilizes the same design.

Pantazis reaction is an equal and opposite response to this event.

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 Post subject: Re: 9*9*9
PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 5:08 am 
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I wish people would take some time to learn how patents work, and the difference between patents, trademarks, copyright and design patents, and then actually check the claims of the Verdes patent before giving useless opinions on this forum.

Apologies to those who understand, but for those who don't, please educate yourself through this site: http://www.ipo.gov.uk/

You can also look up the Verdes patent and other twisty puzzle-related patents (including my own) at the following links:

General patent search: http://gb.espacenet.com

Twisty Puzzles: http://v3.espacenet.com/searchResults?l ... itted=true

Verdes Patent: http://v3.espacenet.com/publicationDeta ... 55A1&KC=A1

Having read through most of this, it does look like this version infringes the claims of Verdes patent, which has also been granted in China. But, as we all know, it's a tough world out there and there are many sharks looking for easy meat...

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Last edited by KelvinS on Thu Jun 25, 2009 7:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 9*9*9
PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 7:23 am 
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Aleksey wrote:
Pantazis,

I do not know exactly what the 9x9x9 mechanism is. But the patents are not about concepts. They are about concrete implementations (yes, they may cover other implementations to a certain degree, but not broadly). And they are published for the exact purpose for others to see if they can improve on them, or do something different and better. That said, even small changes can be significant to justify a new patent, for instance. That's up to the bodies who make these kind of determinations.

Again, I don't know what the real situation here is, but I do have a feeling that you go a little overboard with your striking comments. :oops:



I will put it this way: there is a reason why patents are so expensive and why it takes time for them to be
approved. Copyrights and trademarks are specific. Patents can be defined a lot more broadly, and this
includes "improvements". Anyone who wants to do any improvement should understand why there is a
finite period of time to wait until they can make their own "improvements" (which when compared to the
main design are minor anyway!). In general, "improvements" are a common excuse to steal ideas.

And please let me know which ones of my comments are the striking ones. In any case, being soft with
people who go against the law never works. We *need* to be merciless when facing them, because theft of
intellectual property where people have invested fortunes, is no different than other crimes.
It may not be as direct as when someone breaks into your house, but it can be even worse.

:wink:


Pantazis

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Educational R&D, Gravity, 4D Symmetry, Puzzle Ninja, Matrix Mech, Alien Technology.


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 Post subject: Re: 9*9*9
PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 7:42 am 
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OK, here's the situation:

The claims of Verdes patent includes certain features which are exploited in this version, so it does appear to be a case of illegal infringement of Verdes patent. On the other hand, the knock off also includes some novel elements, which may be patentable in their own right, however that does not get round the fact that the original Verdes patent is infringed.

On a separate point, having a patent does not automatically stop people from copying an idea, it just gives them the right to sue for damages. This is a very expensive and risky process, costing millions in lawyers fees for cases that can last for many years, and so when people copy a patent, they are taking a gamble that they will not be sued. Unfortunately this gamble usually pays off when the patent owner is a private individual, simply because they will never be able to afford to take this gamble. From the knock-off perspective, patents are really only a deterrent as they add the risk of being sued, but this risk is very small when you know the owner can't afford to take you to court...

As I said above, please do some reading and understand what patents really are and how they work before giving your opinions...

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If you want something you’ve never had, you’ve got to do something you’ve never done - Thomas Jefferson


Last edited by KelvinS on Thu Jun 25, 2009 7:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 9*9*9
PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 7:44 am 
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Kelvin Stott wrote:
As I said above, please do some reading and understand what patents really are and how they work before giving your opinions...


I agree. And there are bonus points for someone who has already filed one. ;)



Pantazis


PS. Suing copycats, *does* work. We are not in the 80s any more. But it also takes a lot of time.
Damages though, *can* be compensated, as long as the person who sues can survive that period.

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 Post subject: Re: 9*9*9
PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 7:50 am 
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kastellorizo wrote:
Kelvin Stott wrote:
As I said above, please do some reading and understand what patents really are and how they work before giving your opinions...


I agree. And there are bonus points for someone who has already filed one. ;)

True, but a word of caution: filing a patent and understanding how they work in practice do not necessarily go hand in hand. In fact there are so many cases where patents are filed at great expense, but then the owner cannot afford to enforce them, which begs the question: why did they bother with a patent in the first place?

Quite frankly, a simple design registration would have been much more effective and a lot less expensive than a full patent for most puzzles - including your own puzzle, Pantazis!

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If you want something you’ve never had, you’ve got to do something you’ve never done - Thomas Jefferson


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