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 Post subject: Multiple center pieces concept.
PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2011 4:24 pm 
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Hello, a couple of weeks ago, Ive thinked about that new concept. I don't think it been made before/inplacated in a puzzle, but here i go. Ok basics of this concept is adding multiple center pieces on the same screw (one over another), to create diffrent sort of new puzzles, or help improve older puzzles.

Even if i say "multiples center pieces" i mostly mean 2-3, cause with to much center pieces it would probably wont work well, or wont work at all. And logicly the more center pieces you will have the longuer the screws will need to be. Ok so how it would work with 2 center pieces. The first center pieces, (the inner one, you would bot see it it would be hidden by the pieces), would be the one that would touch the core. After at the top of the screw, right after the inner center pieces, their would be the 2rd one, the one that you would see, depending on puzzles. So to do that the inner one would need to be adapted un sort that the 2rd one can sit on it and move properly, so for that the center pieces would need to be have a sort track/hole/stand, kinda like a core point. Why that? Cause if the 2rd center pieces is touching the one under it, it could be stable, just like if it was touching the core. And for the 2rd one the adaption would go with witch sort of puzzles the concept is used inn. Same thing for the pieces they will need to be adapted according to the puzzles, but that's just normal.


I hope that you understand what I mean, and sorry for my poor english, and really i hope it help!

Please note that this concept is for puzzles with multiple layers

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 Post subject: Re: Multiple center pieces concept.
PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 4:14 pm 
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I read this twice and I just wonder what you want to achieve. In your first paragraph you said "create new sorts of different puzzles" and also "improve older puzzles".
The first of those lines actually rouse my interest. I thought you had a specific idea of a new puzzle type.
So now I am wondering if you do infact have certain concepts. Other than that I would say I don't know where multiple center pieces could be used to make a better puzzle.
Do you mean a cuboid for example? This is what I first had in my mind but the point is that on let's say a 3x3xN or even a crosscube with extensions on all sides the pieces must all reach into the core in order not to fall out mid turn. Thus only one center is needed and usefull. Just adding layers to a puzzle by adding another center and pieces that work the same as in the layer below will in all cases I can think of (not only cuboids) lead to a puzzle that will fall apart when turned.
The only way I could imagine this to work is on a puzzle that is significantly pillowed.

However there are a lot of puzzles that have several centers which don't have a relationship to each other.
Let's say on a Starminx. One possible way to build it is a Megaminx as core, a Pyraminx Crystal as second shell and than a third shell with new centers. Those will rotate though and thus not be connected to the centers below. So all puzzles where layers of centers exist will still only make sense if those centers are not connected by one screw as you described.

So all in all I hope I gave you a quick little insight. I don't know how much of that makes sense to you but if that's nothing you tried to hint at I am afraid I still don't understand what you mean.

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 Post subject: Re: Multiple center pieces concept.
PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2011 7:33 pm 
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I'm not sure if this is exactly what you are looking for, but the custom puzzle 'Elite Kilominx' has 5 centers per face.

Image

It is a puzzle made by clauswe and designed by Muffet and Kickflip.
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=22235&p=267272&hilit=master+kilominx#p267272

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 Post subject: Re: Multiple center pieces concept.
PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2011 7:52 pm 
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Phoenix wrote:
I'm not sure if this is exactly what you are looking for, but the custom puzzle 'Elite Kilominx' has 5 centers per face.

It is a puzzle made by clauswe and designed by Muffet and Kickflip.
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=22235&p=267272&hilit=master+kilominx#p267272

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Phoenix I think what Drake is thinking of is "stacked" centers. That means another rotating center piece just benieth the normal one.

I can see the logic in your idea Drake. For a puzzle like a 5x5x5 a seperate center that supports the slice row.
I do not se any reason why it would not work. In fact I am going to try to play with the idea if you dont mind ;)

EDIT:

A mass produced puzzle uses this idea. Meffert's/Timur's Professor Pyraminx :)

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 Post subject: Re: Multiple center pieces concept.
PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2011 11:22 am 
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Hmm yeah its real, didnt think about that puzzles lol, just recieved mine yesterday lol.

But the way ive thinked it was a little diffrent, tough, even if that one is adapted to a pyraminx, like proff pyraminx.

And sorry timur, if it your original idear, didn't know :oops: .

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 Post subject: Re: Multiple center pieces concept.
PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2011 11:53 am 
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This is the main problem I see with the mechanism:

Attachment:
Mechanism Comparisons.jpg
Mechanism Comparisons.jpg [ 37.99 KiB | Viewed 2387 times ]


As you can see, using your mechanism, the green piece doesn't have as bigger foot as the traditional mechanism uses. Though my drawing is bad and somewhat exaggerated, larger and taller puzzles would be better off using the traditional mechanism. Your mechanism relies on all the layers being held in the normal 3x3x3 edge part.

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 Post subject: Re: Multiple center pieces concept.
PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2011 4:03 pm 
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Luke wrote:
This is the main problem I see with the mechanism:

Attachment:
Mechanism Comparisons.jpg


As you can see, using your mechanism, the green piece doesn't have as bigger foot as the traditional mechanism uses. Though my drawing is bad and somewhat exaggerated, larger and taller puzzles would be better off using the traditional mechanism. Your mechanism relies on all the layers being held in the normal 3x3x3 edge part.





You wouldn't really need sommething like that, cause the 2rd one would be basicly like the first one, so you could just put and edge over another ( like not like a 3x3, i mean in adapted pieces like) Hard to explain.

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 Post subject: Re: Multiple center pieces concept.
PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2011 9:48 pm 
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On the picture below I think you will find what Drake is looking for.
Attachment:
NEWMECH.jpg
NEWMECH.jpg [ 12.03 KiB | Viewed 2308 times ]

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 Post subject: Re: Multiple center pieces concept.
PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 6:51 am 
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I dob't really understand your Sigurd, but if i understand it right, yeah it look sommething like i think.

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 Post subject: Re: Multiple center pieces concept.
PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 7:21 am 
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This mech is called "Christmas Tree Mech" for obvious reasons : :lol:

kidding aside, if you are not familiar with "section cuts" (both mine and Luke's picture are section cuts)
I see why it would be hard to understand.

Well every color is its own piece. that means the blue shaded pieces are devided very time you see a horizontal black line.
The white line is the "axis" or screw.

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 Post subject: Re: Multiple center pieces concept.
PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 7:52 am 
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The mechanism that you're suggesting is actually impossible (as I have now stupidly realised), at least on cuboids. The problem is that in mid turn there is no mechanism to hold the furthest away pieces. Therefore, you can only use the center piece which holds the 3x3x3 parts in. This is an idea of a mechanism which could be applied to an absurd cuboid. If you imagine you removed a 3x17 face, you would get this:

Attachment:
3x3x17 Mechanism.jpg
3x3x17 Mechanism.jpg [ 107.68 KiB | Viewed 2259 times ]

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 Post subject: Re: Multiple center pieces concept.
PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 8:10 am 
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The mechanism I pictured was meant for regular puzzles. I draw a 7x7x7 and I think this (ignoring proportions) could be scaled up a whole lot.

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 Post subject: Re: Multiple center pieces concept.
PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 8:24 am 
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Yhea i know it wouldnt be possible with a x X x X 17 lol. :shock: .

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 Post subject: Re: Multiple center pieces concept.
PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 12:56 pm 
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Luke, you didn't understand what Drake meant.

He meant superposed centers for example on a 5x5, with a center supporting the 1st row of piece and the second one the second row.

Here it is: but there is a problem, when you turn any layer, both centers turn because the two pieces in blue and green are actually the blue and green pieces modelised on the left. Hense the uselessness of putting a double axis which would just lead to misalignment :)

Hope I helped !


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 Post subject: Re: Multiple center pieces concept.
PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 12:59 pm 
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I do know what Drake was talking about; we have discussed it many times on the IRC. I was saying that his mechanism wouldn't work on cuboids, which we had also discussed.

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 Post subject: Re: Multiple center pieces concept.
PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 7:32 pm 
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Actually, I believe Rubiks 5x5x5's do utilize double-layered centers. The top is free from the bottom- the top turns only with the outer layer, while solely middle layer turns will not affect the top center. I do not have a Rubik's 5x5x5 on me right now, so if anyone wants to post pictures...

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 Post subject: Re: Multiple center pieces concept.
PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 10:25 pm 
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Here's a picture from Wikipedia of a disassembled Rubik's 5x5 that shows the core. (Here is the full size picture.)


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 Post subject: Re: Multiple center pieces concept.
PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 1:22 pm 
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Yes, but it is useless since both turn at the same time when you turn a face :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Multiple center pieces concept.
PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 2:15 pm 
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This topic makes me think of my Real5x5x5. The core looks a little bit like some of the above illustrations but is not a good example of the topic at hand. Nothing turns in this example as you are just looking at the core of the puzzle.

Image

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 Post subject: Re: Multiple center pieces concept.
PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 9:55 pm 
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Okay, I know where you are getting at, and I'm not sure that a lot of you get it. If you take a center piece of a 3x3 and screw it to another center piece, allowing both pieces to turn freely, you end up with a 5x5 that would possibly stay together better. I've had that idea (although I'm not a puzzle maker) and I realized that it has the same problems as a cubic 7x7 with all the pieces the same size. If you turned the top layer, the corner peice would be hanging off the edge of the cube and wouldn't have anything to keep it on.

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 Post subject: Re: Multiple center pieces concept.
PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 3:29 pm 
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No you dont need to use it as a inner edge you can put it at the top of the other edge i mean, so you will only see one color of the edges that is under.

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 Post subject: Re: Multiple center pieces concept.
PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 7:01 am 
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Carl,

Please tell me this one is next on your list :mrgreen:


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 Post subject: Re: Multiple center pieces concept.
PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 9:40 am 
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Muffet wrote:
Carl,

Please tell me this one is next on your list :mrgreen:
I hope to get to my Real5x5x5 eventually. Its one of my most complex designs, but I'd prefer to work my way up to it with a few simplier ones first. I also have fears that the number of pieces will cause alot of friction in this puzzle so it could easily have turning issues. That plus I suspect it would cost $200+ to have one printed and I want to take a few safer smaller bets first.

I'm temped to say that if I make enough from sales on Shapeways I could aford to take a few bigger gambles faster, but in truth my limiting factor is probably my free time.

Trust me I want a Real5x5x5 as bad as anyone. I've been working on possible designs for one since January 2007. And I've wanted once since well before that.

Carl

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