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 Post subject: Deep Cut Puzzle Mechanisms
PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 6:27 pm 
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How many different types of deep cut puzzle mechanisms exist? I have designed three, the Sand mech, the Sphere mech, and the magnet mech. There is also the knucklehead mech and rubik's ball mech. What mech does the 24 cube made by the.drizzle have? Also what mech does the new pentultimate have?

I am hoping that this thread will give puzzle designers new ideas for deep cut puzzles :D

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 Post subject: Re: Deep Cut Puzzle Mechanisms
PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 6:48 pm 
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The new pentultimae has a master pentultimate as it's mech. As for the 24 cube this topic will give some good insight http://www.twistypuzzles.com/forum/view ... 15&t=14128

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 Post subject: Re: Deep Cut Puzzle Mechanisms
PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 6:49 pm 
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the sphere mech and magnet mech are well known... you aren't the first to do either of those... the sand mech, we're still awaiting details...

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 Post subject: Re: Deep Cut Puzzle Mechanisms
PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 7:08 pm 
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It seems to me like the 24-Cube is much more convenient when the core is magnetic. It's overly complicated with all those pieces, making me wonder what the inside of that 48-Cube looks like.

So Ball-Mech, Hidden Layer, Magnetic Mech, Knucklehead Mech, and simply cross-core Spider mech.

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 Post subject: Re: Deep Cut Puzzle Mechanisms
PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 7:15 pm 
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Derek Bosch wrote:
the sphere mech and magnet mech are well known... you aren't the first to do either of those... the sand mech, we're still awaiting details...

-D


I can garentee my Sphere mech is different than you are thinking. The magnet mech I was refering to was a mechanical solution different from using a metal ball as the core.

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 Post subject: Re: Deep Cut Puzzle Mechanisms
PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 7:17 pm 
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by sphere mech, I mean there is a spherical cage holding in the pieces...
it has been used several times before...


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 Post subject: Re: Deep Cut Puzzle Mechanisms
PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 7:33 pm 
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To avoid more confusion, instead of saying sand mech, sphere mech, magnet mech (none of those have any meaning whatsoever to us), why not give a quick description of what you mean by that?

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 Post subject: Re: Deep Cut Puzzle Mechanisms
PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 8:14 pm 
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Here is my "magnet mech" for a 24-octahedron
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and here is the "sphere cage mech" for another little-chop...
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 Post subject: Re: Deep Cut Puzzle Mechanisms
PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 9:01 pm 
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The sand and sphere mechs are what my cross cube uses. The magnet mech I posted a while ago under the title how to make any puzzle in the real world.

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 Post subject: Re: Deep Cut Puzzle Mechanisms
PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 9:10 pm 
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PuzzleMaster6262 wrote:
The sand and sphere mechs are what my cross cube uses. The magnet mech I posted a while ago under the title how to make any puzzle in the real world.


We know this. But since you are being so OMG SECRETIVE about your puzzle mech, none of us have any idea what you are talking about.

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 Post subject: Re: Deep Cut Puzzle Mechanisms
PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 9:12 pm 
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PuzzleMaster6262 wrote:
The sand and sphere mechs are what my cross cube uses. The magnet mech I posted a while ago under the title how to make any puzzle in the real world.

Exactly the problem. We don't know the mech for that, so we don't know what you mean when you say sand mech or sphere mech. This topic was made prematurely, IMO.

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 Post subject: Re: Deep Cut Puzzle Mechanisms
PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 9:21 pm 
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This topic is not only about my mechs. Do any of you actually know the 24 cube mechanism?

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 Post subject: Re: Deep Cut Puzzle Mechanisms
PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 9:22 pm 
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Garrett wrote:
PuzzleMaster6262 wrote:
The sand and sphere mechs are what my cross cube uses. The magnet mech I posted a while ago under the title how to make any puzzle in the real world.


We know this. But since you are being so OMG SECRETIVE about your puzzle mech, none of us have any idea what you are talking about.

It's a type of mech thats easy to make in the great program blender


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 Post subject: Re: Deep Cut Puzzle Mechanisms
PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 9:28 pm 
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PuzzleMaster6262 wrote:
This topic is not only about my mechs. Do any of you actually know the 24 cube mechanism?


Yes, I know exactly what it is and how it works. It starts as a helicopter cube, and shell mechanisms are built around that with successively deeper cuts. I believe it requires 4 layers to achieve this.

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 Post subject: Re: Deep Cut Puzzle Mechanisms
PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 9:36 pm 
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Garrett wrote:
PuzzleMaster6262 wrote:
This topic is not only about my mechs. Do any of you actually know the 24 cube mechanism?


Yes, I know exactly what it is and how it works. It starts as a helicopter cube, and shell mechanisms are built around that with successively deeper cuts. I believe it requires 4 layers to achieve this.

Wow. I thought it was something extremely different. That is really cool on the fact it was made before helicopter cubes were mass produced.

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 Post subject: Re: Deep Cut Puzzle Mechanisms
PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 9:46 pm 
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the.drizzle's 24 cube is 8 layers deep, I think. Maybe 7. Definitely more than 4.

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 Post subject: Re: Deep Cut Puzzle Mechanisms
PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 9:46 pm 
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theVDude wrote:
the.drizzle's 24 cube is 8 layers deep, I think. Maybe 7. Definitely more than 4.


I used to think this but apparently it's only 3.

PuzzleMaster6262 wrote:
Wow. I thought it was something extremely different. That is really cool on the fact it was made before helicopter cubes were mass produced.


I guess I should have been more clear. It uses a helicopter cube mechanism, in sphere form, as its "core".

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 Post subject: Re: Deep Cut Puzzle Mechanisms
PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 9:51 pm 
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@Garrett
I understood that. However, it would be a lot easier to design a helicopter cube if you could hold one in your hand.

If it is the way you described it, why does it have so many pieces?

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 Post subject: Re: Deep Cut Puzzle Mechanisms
PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 9:58 pm 
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PuzzleMaster6262 wrote:
@Garrett
I understood that. However, it would be a lot easier to design a helicopter cube if you could hold one in your hand.

If it is the way you described it, why does it have so many pieces?


Designing a helicopter cube is really simple, especially when it is spherical.

I don't really know how to explain the mechanism to you. There have been countless discussions about it before, including the very good one that was quoted above (look for posts by TBTTyler)

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 Post subject: Re: Deep Cut Puzzle Mechanisms
PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 10:08 pm 
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I understand how it could be built, but wouldn't it only have the helicopter pieces and master 24 cube pieces?

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 Post subject: Re: Deep Cut Puzzle Mechanisms
PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 10:23 pm 
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[url]viewtopic.php?f=15&t=14128&hilit=Little+chop[/url]

Once again this thread has some very nice pictures that show the layers for the origional 24 cube.


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 Post subject: Re: Deep Cut Puzzle Mechanisms
PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 10:31 pm 
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Muffet wrote:
[url]viewtopic.php?f=15&t=14128&hilit=Little+chop[/url]

Once again this thread has some very nice pictures that show the layers for the origional 24 cube.

I went through and read that topic again but still do not see why it has so many pieces. The helicopter sphere core has 48 pieces and a master 24 cube would have 74. 8 of the pieces are connected so I see only 90 pieces, not 209.

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 Post subject: Re: Deep Cut Puzzle Mechanisms
PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 10:48 pm 
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There is a middle step between those two.

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 Post subject: Re: Deep Cut Puzzle Mechanisms
PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 11:03 pm 
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I see the layer I forgot but why is it needed? Is it used to hold down the square center pieces if the master 24? Also that is amazing if a single layer has 127 pieces.

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 Post subject: Re: Deep Cut Puzzle Mechanisms
PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 9:26 am 
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I really dislike how you mention a mechanism (sand) and then proceed to not explain any of it too us. I'm really bothered by your presentation of things so far.

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 Post subject: Re: Deep Cut Puzzle Mechanisms
PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 10:51 am 
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Drewseph has a point. Sand Mech should only be discussed when more than just you know how it works.

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 Post subject: Re: Deep Cut Puzzle Mechanisms
PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 11:22 am 
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Ok, this is the sand mech or whatever name it ends up being called.

This is how to make a 2x2x2 using my mech.

Create a 2x2x2 sphere. It can be hollow but it does not matter.

Create a fused 3x3x3 sphere around the 2x2x2 with the corners connected. The 3x3x3 should have small corner pieces compared to the centers and edges.

Create another 2x2x2 around that with the corners connected to the internal corners.

A 3x3x3 would start out with a 2x2x2 also.
Next layer is a 3x3x3 with small corners and large centers/edges. The final layer is a normal 3x3x3.

I will answer any questions about this mech but I will not explain it in more complex designs.

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 Post subject: Re: Deep Cut Puzzle Mechanisms
PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 11:54 am 
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Interesting - I came up with an idea for a Pentultimate mechanism yesterday that is very similar to the one you described, but I abandoned it because I figured there would be no way to keep the mechanism in alignment.

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 Post subject: Re: Deep Cut Puzzle Mechanisms
PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 12:27 pm 
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will_57 wrote:
Interesting - I came up with an idea for a Pentultimate mechanism yesterday that is very similar to the one you described, but I abandoned it because I figured there would be no way to keep the mechanism in alignment.

That was the tricky part of the design. With my cross cube, 3 layers would be able to rotate freely even if a piece is bandaged to the internal pieces around it. To solve it, you need to get rid of many of the pieces. Also, congradulations on designing a mech similar to mine.

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 Post subject: Re: Deep Cut Puzzle Mechanisms
PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 12:32 pm 
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It's funny coz I use the same mechanism on very complex puzzles (master skewb 4-7 layer mech), AND I use it on other *many*- layered puzzles too!

- Greg :)

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 Post subject: Re: Deep Cut Puzzle Mechanisms
PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 12:38 pm 
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RubixFreakGreg wrote:
It's funny coz I use the same mechanism on very complex puzzles (master skewb 4-7 layer mech), AND I use it on other *many*- layered puzzles too!

- Greg :)

But do your puzzles have a core? This mech in a 3x3x3 would have exactly 26 pieces, no spider in the middle. The mech allways has 3 layers, even in my 48 cube.

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 Post subject: Re: Deep Cut Puzzle Mechanisms
PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 2:53 pm 
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I designed a 2x2 sphere with the "sand mech" exactly as you described, and I see how it works. It relies on the geometry of the sphere to hold the parts together. The 3x3 parts float between the 2x2 layers. I can see how easy it would be to make a 24-cube with this mechanism! Though it would lack the stability of a puzzle with an attached core with spindles.

I've attached a 3d-pdf if anyone wants to take a look.


Attachments:
sand 2x2.zip [2.12 MiB]
Downloaded 138 times

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 Post subject: Re: Deep Cut Puzzle Mechanisms
PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 3:01 pm 
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That looks like what I'm saying but the PDF doesn't show the mechanics. The problem with making a 24 cube this way is 2 of the cuts can not be internaly aligned with bandaging.

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 Post subject: Re: Deep Cut Puzzle Mechanisms
PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 3:05 pm 
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How does it not show the mechanics? You can double click on a part, to select the whole thing, then right click it and isolate the part.

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 Post subject: Re: Deep Cut Puzzle Mechanisms
PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 3:08 pm 
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Garrett wrote:
How does it not show the mechanics? You can double click on a part, to select the whole thing, then right click it and isolate the part.

I only knew how to rotate and zoom. Sorry about that.

EDT: That is the exact mechanism I was trying to describe. Also, on larger puzzles like my Cross Cube, the stalks need to be extremely thin for the puzzle to be stable. That is why it has 47 bolts connecting the pieces instead of wsf.

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Last edited by PuzzleMaster6262 on Mon Aug 09, 2010 3:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Deep Cut Puzzle Mechanisms
PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 3:34 pm 
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Nope, no core at all!! :lol:

If there was a core, that mech would just be pointless no? ^^

- Greg :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Deep Cut Puzzle Mechanisms
PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 3:53 pm 
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So are you saying it is similar or the same as my mech? Can you post any pictures?

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 Post subject: Re: Deep Cut Puzzle Mechanisms
PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 4:40 pm 
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There are some issues with the 'sand' mechanism as described. First, relying solely on the spherical geometry to hold it together is ridiculous - it will either be too tight to move or too loose to hold together. There's no reason to not make the pieces grip each other properly. The other issue is that the central bands will inevitably get out of alignment. To really have a working mechanism, you need to have something which forces the bands to go with one side or the other.


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 Post subject: Re: Deep Cut Puzzle Mechanisms
PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 6:03 pm 
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The pros of the sand mech on a 2x2x2

•Fully adjustable if screws are used on 7 corners.
•Better corner cutting possibilities compared to most 2x2x2s.
•Inner pieces can't be misaligned due to 1 corner being fused with 6 internal pieces.
•Can be hollow to allow new types of 2x2x2 mods-ie circuit cube.

The cons of the sand mech on a 2x2x2

•No need.
•Hollow.
•Can not be made too small and stay stable.

However, on more complex puzzles the pros and cons would be compleatly different.

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 Post subject: Re: Deep Cut Puzzle Mechanisms
PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 7:33 pm 
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I hate to break it to you, but all you've actually done here is "designed" and incomplete version of Jason's "knucklehead" mechanism that he used for his original pentultimate puzzle. At the time, it was pointed out that the design could be easily adapted / extended to the 24-cube, and thus your 48-cube as well.

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 Post subject: Re: Deep Cut Puzzle Mechanisms
PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 7:37 pm 
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the.drizzle wrote:
I hate to break it to you, but all you've actually done here is "designed" and incomplete version of Jason's "knucklehead" mechanism that he used for his original pentultimate puzzle. At the time, it was pointed out that the design could be easily adapted / extended to the 24-cube, and thus your 48-cube as well.

This is a bit different in that it doesn't require anywhere near as many layers (24 cube needs 24, this would need 48) as the regular knucklehead mechanism. I see the connection, and the knucklehead mech solves a few problems this has (tiny pieces coming out of place because there is no way to keep them in).

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 Post subject: Re: Deep Cut Puzzle Mechanisms
PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 7:46 pm 
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the.drizzle wrote:
I hate to break it to you, but all you've actually done here is "designed" and incomplete version of Jason's "knucklehead" mechanism that he used for his original pentultimate puzzle. At the time, it was pointed out that the design could be easily adapted / extended to the 24-cube, and thus your 48-cube as well.

The knucklehead mech holds the pieces together in a different way. My design is held together by the curves of a sphere while the knucklehead I believe has extensions on the pieces holding it together. Also theVDude is right by saying this mech only has three layers in a 48 cube, while with the knucklehead mech it would need 46.

On a side note, your 24 cube was my inspiration to start designing and building puzzles.

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 Post subject: Re: Deep Cut Puzzle Mechanisms
PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 8:04 pm 
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PuzzleMaster6262 wrote:
the.drizzle wrote:
I hate to break it to you, but all you've actually done here is "designed" and incomplete version of Jason's "knucklehead" mechanism that he used for his original pentultimate puzzle. At the time, it was pointed out that the design could be easily adapted / extended to the 24-cube, and thus your 48-cube as well.

The knucklehead mech holds the pieces together in a different way. My design is held together by the curves of a sphere while the knucklehead I believe has extensions on the pieces holding it together. Also theVDude is right by saying this mech only has three layers in a 48 cube, while with the knucklehead mech it would need 46.

On a side note, your 24 cube was my inspiration to start designing and building puzzles.

The pieces of a knucklehead puzzle are held together because it's a sphere, it's just that each piece that can interact with another needs a different layer. On this they're all held together the same way as a knuckle mech, it's just condensing it down so the 'tabs' either do or don't move, as opposed to having them always move.

It's interesting, and calling it "sand" mech confuses me. I don't see why it would be called that.

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 Post subject: Re: Deep Cut Puzzle Mechanisms
PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 8:53 pm 
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That's why I said an *incomplete* version of the knucklehead mech.; this approach will still take multiple layers to actually function.

Either way, it's not really a new concept. That is, take a closer look at (for example) VWP's 221 mechanism here and you'll see that what he has done here is conceptually the same as what's done with the 222 sphere in the .pdf file, which itself is functionally equivalent to an Eastsheen 222 mechanism.

Just my two cents though; glad you liked my 24-cube puzzle ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Deep Cut Puzzle Mechanisms
PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 8:56 pm 
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I really think that the knucklehead mech is worth revisiting, using a full SLS print. It would get rid of the insane number of parts since the parts would be printed all at once.

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 Post subject: Re: Deep Cut Puzzle Mechanisms
PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 9:31 pm 
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Indeed! It would still be costly though, as there is no real way of getting around the fact that such a mech. would have to be fairly large for any puzzle worth doing it for (pentultimate and up).

One logistical problem though; would it be possible to actually assemble such a puzzle if all the bits were printed as single SLS parts? I think at least one would need to be a two-part piece. Hmm...

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 Post subject: Re: Deep Cut Puzzle Mechanisms
PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 10:07 pm 
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I'm a builder and a casual solver, I know nothing of how to make a 24 or 48 cube but I'm sitting here wondering if this isn't all over thought (considering the brilliant minds here I'm guessing its not).

However, I looked at my Rubiks 4x4 and thought, why can't the ball mech with grooves be used to accomplish this? Wouldn't a 4x4 cut on the diagonals give you the rotations needed to pull off the 24 or 48 cube? Obviously it needs a different sphere inside with different grooves but to my layman mind it seems feasible.

I could be way off, if so....

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 Post subject: Re: Deep Cut Puzzle Mechanisms
PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 10:16 pm 
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Basically, what happens when you try to do that is that the paths for the grooves / grabbers end up running into each other in a bunch of un-resolvable ways. One can see the problem by staring at this for a little bit, while comparing those paths to the 444 paths (or 222 ones, that is).

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 Post subject: Re: Deep Cut Puzzle Mechanisms
PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 10:20 pm 
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Attachment:
Pentultimate.jpg
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In the picture you can see the small grooves that hold it together.
It is called the sand mech because in complex puzzles the pieces reminded me of sand. If you have a better name, I'm all ears.

This mech will allways only need 3 layers for deep cut puzzles. The huge difference between the minimus 2x2x1 and this mech is the reason why the pieces stay in. On his mech, it is because of the one piece holding the others on. With my mech, the only reason one of the pieces needs to be fused is to keep the internal layers aligned. Are you talking about my mech or the knucklehead mech for one piece needing to be split in half? If it is mine, all of the larger pieces should be split and screwed together. This allows the stalk to be strong enough.

@Derek Tolley
That was my first mechanism idea. However, the puzzle would need to be huge in order for the grooves to not overlap to much.

EDT: You need to add even more grooves to the sphere because unlike a 2x2x2, the end pegs can not rotate in place.

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 Post subject: Re: Deep Cut Puzzle Mechanisms
PostPosted: Tue Aug 10, 2010 1:52 pm 
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Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2007 3:14 pm
Location: Orange County, CA
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Last edited by Garrett on Mon Aug 16, 2010 12:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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