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 Post subject: Jason's Icosamate
PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 1:20 pm 
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Here is the Icosmate!

I have mentioned a couple of times that my original idea for the pentultimate was for the icosahedron shape. I have finally made one! I thought it would also be fun to include below some of my original sketches for the puzzle, before I knew of the name "Pentultimate", and some of my original knucklehead musings and scribbles. One of the sketches is for a deep cut edge turning icosahedron, which I haven't tackled yet.

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 Post subject: Re: Jason's Icosamate
PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 1:26 pm 
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Looks absolutely amazing! It's the the Skewb Diamond analog of the Pentultimate.

The notebooks look like the doodlings of a mad genius :D Very interesting

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 Post subject: Re: Jason's Icosamate
PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 1:35 pm 
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Do you ever plan to have any Pentultimates or Isocimates mass produced? Your next challenge should be a skewb ultimate equivalent, then a golden cube and egg version, or Jing's pyraminx version, or a... (as the audience becomes bored) :D

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 Post subject: Re: Jason's Icosamate
PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 2:03 pm 
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Strangely enough, an Ultimate analog would be a tetrahedron.

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 Post subject: Re: Jason's Icosamate
PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 2:08 pm 
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dang, another awesome puzzle! you are a machine!

well done!


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 Post subject: Re: Jason's Icosamate
PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 2:59 pm 
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i really want this puzzle..

a friendly warning:

i going to bother you with numerous trade offers until you give in...
if i wasnt working on such an expensive project, i would gladly win the auction..

wonderful wonderful puzzle!!!!!

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 Post subject: Re: Jason's Icosamate
PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 3:05 pm 
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I am truly impressed. Great work. I really like your notes too.

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 Post subject: Re: Jason's Icosamate
PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 3:34 pm 
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woot :D

nice work.
i can´t even think of the mechanism^^

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 Post subject: Re: Jason's Icosamate
PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 3:36 pm 
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Very cool Jason,

Might I ask if the last 2 pictures are actual drawings? or are they Cadded pics printed out?

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 Post subject: Re: Jason's Icosamate
PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 4:30 pm 
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LOL I knew you were crazy Jason, even knuckle-head crazy, but this is too much!!!
I absolutely love the sketches and the puzzles!!!

:D


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 Post subject: Re: Jason's Icosamate
PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 4:34 pm 
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This is mind-boggling! I can't figure out the mech at all! Amazing work, these look incredible.


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 Post subject: Re: Jason's Icosamate
PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 4:36 pm 
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Very cool. Is the edge length of both icosahedra in the fourth picture the same? And do you plan on exchanging some pieces to make an icosidodecahedron and the pentultimate equivalent of a skewb star?

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 Post subject: Re: Jason's Icosamate
PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 4:38 pm 
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Awesome puzzle. Are there no limits to what you are capable?
The first hand drawing looks like a dogic. :)
Well done!


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 Post subject: Re: Jason's Icosamate
PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 4:40 pm 
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Brilliant! I love it. :D

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 Post subject: Re: Jason's Icosamate
PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 4:45 pm 
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Fantastic, It looks so ... so... PERFECT!

I played with this on UMC and fell in love with it! :D

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 Post subject: Re: Jason's Icosamate
PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 4:55 pm 
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wow!!!
Fantastic job.
This kind of puzzle must have a mass produced version!!!

:shock: :shock: :shock:


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 Post subject: Re: Jason's Icosamate
PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 4:58 pm 
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Jason, you are a master.


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 Post subject: Re: Jason's Icosamate
PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 5:06 pm 
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It's so beautiful... *sniff*


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 Post subject: Re: Jason's Icosamate
PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 5:24 pm 
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aww hes so cute.
I love this puzzle Great work


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 Post subject: Re: Jason's Icosamate
PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 6:08 pm 
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For me, this is the ULTIMATE twistypuzzle, because it has maximum mathematical complexity compared with its physical symmetry and simplicity, as I tried to explain here:

Subject: Question about Complexity vs Simplicity

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 Post subject: Re: Jason's Icosamate
PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 8:08 pm 
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Beautiful puzzle. It looks so simple...
Also, I think that the logical super version would be a rhombic triacontahedron, but a pentagonal hexacontahedron would also be pretty

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 Post subject: Re: Jason's Icosamate
PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 9:15 pm 
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Hey everyone! Thanks for the nice comments- I appreciate them!

EMarx wrote:
Looks absolutely amazing! It's the the Skewb Diamond analog of the Pentultimate.
The notebooks look like the doodlings of a mad genius :D Very interesting


You're right about the skewb diamond, but I think I'd reverse it. This puzzle is corner turning, like the skewb, and the pentultimate is face turning, like the skewb diamond.


GamerCuber101 wrote:
Very cool Jason,

Might I ask if the last 2 pictures are actual drawings? or are they Cadded pics printed out?


They're printouts of tests I did in Maya before I decided I had to learn SolidWorks.


Sjoerd wrote:
Very cool. Is the edge length of both icosahedra in the fourth picture the same? And do you plan on exchanging some pieces to make an icosidodecahedron and the pentultimate equivalent of a skewb star?


This is a bit bigger than the Radiolarian.


contrabass wrote:
Beautiful puzzle. It looks so simple...
Also, I think that the logical super version would be a rhombic triacontahedron, but a pentagonal hexacontahedron would also be pretty


Or a CUBE!! ....
:twisted:

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 Post subject: Re: Jason's Icosamate
PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 9:22 pm 
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EMarx wrote:
It's the the Skewb Diamond analog of the Pentultimate.


Actually as this is a corner turn puzzle and the Skewb is a corner turn puzzle I'd call this the "Skewb analog of the Pentultimate."

Skewb Diamond <=> Pentultimate <=> deep cut Face turn puzzles.

Skewb <=> Icosamate <=> deep cut Corner turn puzzles.

Using this logic... What's the tetrahedral analog of the Skewb? And what is the Skewb Diamond analog of that puzzle?

Carl

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Last edited by wwwmwww on Thu Feb 18, 2010 9:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Jason's Icosamate
PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 9:24 pm 
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io wrote:
You're right about the skewb diamond, but I think I'd reverse it. This puzzle is corner turning, like the skewb, and the pentultimate is face turning, like the skewb diamond.


Arg... no reading my mind while I'm typing posts I haven't submitted yet. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Jason's Icosamate
PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 10:43 pm 
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I disagree

Regardless of shape, I consider the square faces of the Skewb and the pentagonal faces of the Pentultimate the "true" faces. The three colored corners of the Skewb and Pentultimate I consider the "true" corners.

So on the Skewb Diamond, even though the "points" appear as points, I call them faces. Same with Icosamate.

Skewb - Corner orientation is necessary, while face orientation isn't.
Skewb Diamond - Corner orientation is unnecessary, while face orientation is.

Pentultimate - Corner orientation is necessary, while face orientation isn't.
Icosamate - Corner orientation is unnecessary, while face orientation is.

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 Post subject: Re: Jason's Icosamate
PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 10:45 pm 
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io wrote:
Or a CUBE!! ....
:twisted:

So how manny of these http://twistypuzzles.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1609 should we be expecting :lol:

Also concidering this uses your V 2.5 mechanism which is a master pentultimate covered with caps i was wondering if this puzzle could be realised easely http://users.skynet.be/gelatinbrain/App ... osa_v9.htm (icosahedral master pentultimate)

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 Post subject: Re: Jason's Icosamate
PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 10:48 pm 
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Elwyn wrote:
io wrote:
Or a CUBE!! ....
:twisted:

So how manny of these viewtopic.php?t=1609 should we be expecting :lol:

Also concidering this uses your V 2.5 mechanism which is a master pentultimate covered with caps i was wondering if this puzzle could be realised easely http://users.skynet.be/gelatinbrain/App ... osa_v9.htm (icosahedral master pentultimate)


Heh heh.....Yep. Yep it could..... :twisted:

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 Post subject: Re: Jason's Icosamate
PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 10:49 pm 
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:shock: No difference between this Great puzzle and 30 mins fire works in the sky!!! :shock: Mind Blowing Damn men!!!!


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 Post subject: Re: Jason's Icosamate
PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 11:00 pm 
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EMarx wrote:
I disagree

Regardless of shape, I consider the square faces of the Skewb and the pentagonal faces of the Pentultimate the "true" faces. The three colored corners of the Skewb and Pentultimate I consider the "true" corners.

So on the Skewb Diamond, even though the "points" appear as points, I call them faces. Same with Icosamate.

Skewb - Corner orientation is necessary, while face orientation isn't.
Skewb Diamond - Corner orientation is unnecessary, while face orientation is.

Pentultimate - Corner orientation is necessary, while face orientation isn't.
Icosamate - Corner orientation is unnecessary, while face orientation is.


I would say that on all four puzzles, corner orientation is necessary, while face orientation isn't.

What is your definition of "true" face? Whatever face is on the puzzle that came first?

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 Post subject: Re: Jason's Icosamate
PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 11:20 pm 
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It's much like the Rubik's Cube and Trajber's Octahedron analog.

You wouldn't say a Trajber's Octahedron requires corner orientation, and no face orientation. You would say "Solve it like a Rubik's Cube, but with super centers, and no corner orientation."

I view the Trajber's Octahedron as a modified Rubik's Cube(and rightfully so :D ), rather then a seperate puzzle of it's own.

I view the Icosamate as a modified Pentultimate(again, rightfully so)
So for the Icosamate, I'd say "Solve it like the Pentultimate, but don't worry about corners, and solve the face orientation"

Like the Skewb Diamond, "Solve it like a Skewb, but don't worry about the corners and solve the face orientation."

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 Post subject: Re: Jason's Icosamate
PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 11:50 pm 
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It looks astounding!


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 Post subject: Re: Jason's Icosamate
PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 1:01 am 
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io wrote:
Heh heh.....Yep. Yep it could..... :twisted:


:o Interesting. It seems you have opened a door that will allow you to build many interesting puzzles (like those other shape mods of the pentultimate or master pentultimate). And all this after your amazing radiolarans. Your are indeed an amazing puzzle designer and builder and i am eagerly awaiting whatever you are making next!

Also i'd like to know if after all this time spent designing and building pentultimates have you ever tried solving it on a simulator (or even one you have built)? It is a very challenging but fun puzzle and the icosahedral version gives you a new very different challenge.

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 Post subject: Re: Jason's Icosamate
PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 2:27 am 
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1. Well done, IO

2. I agree with EMarx here.
The Pentultimate is the deepcut cousin of the Megaminx.
The Icosmate is its dual shape variant.
The "Skewbic dodecahedron" is Gelatibrain 1.2.9
The dual shape variant is Gelatibrain 2.1.15


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 Post subject: Re: Jason's Icosamate
PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 1:36 pm 
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well done again. such beautiful work.

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 Post subject: Re: Jason's Icosamate
PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 2:31 pm 
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I think this is EASILY the most visually appealing version of icosahedral puzzle ive ever seen! the thing about icosahedrons is all those tiny pieces on the wings and such make it look kind of cluttered.

i still think those kinds are very neat to solve though ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Jason's Icosamate
PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 2:38 pm 
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This reminded me of a question I wanted to ask: On a Pentultimate, how many ways can the center be orientated? For a Skewb it's 2, but I have no idea about this.

By the way, this is a beautiful puzzle, and I hope to own one in the future (hopefully this one!!!)

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 Post subject: Re: Jason's Icosamate
PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 2:41 pm 
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SEBUVER wrote:
This reminded me of a question I wanted to ask: On a Pentultimate, how many ways can the center be orientated? For a Skewb it's 2, but I have no idea about this.

By the way, this is a beautiful puzzle, and I hope to own one in the future (hopefully this one!!!)



i think it would in fact have to be 5 orientations. because the difference between a skewb and this is this if the "face" turning version.

so while it is a vertex turning puzzle, it solves like its face turning dual polyhedron.

did that make sense at all? ;) no coffee yet today.

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 Post subject: Re: Jason's Icosamate
PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 2:44 pm 
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It is a 12 sided skewb, but the angles make it face turning (Am I right saying this?) but I don't understand the center orientation. This is why I don't have a clue about the mechanism. (If their is one at all!)

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 Post subject: Re: Jason's Icosamate
PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 7:20 pm 
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wwwmwww wrote:
EMarx wrote:
It's the the Skewb Diamond analog of the Pentultimate.


Actually as this is a corner turn puzzle and the Skewb is a corner turn puzzle I'd call this the "Skewb analog of the Pentultimate."

Skewb Diamond <=> Pentultimate <=> deep cut Face turn puzzles.

Skewb <=> Icosamate <=> deep cut Corner turn puzzles.

Using this logic... What's the tetrahedral analog of the Skewb? And what is the Skewb Diamond analog of that puzzle?

Carl


And yet, the pentultimate and skewb have angles and movement similar to each other and this, the icosomate and the skewb are the same way, regardless of the fact that vertex turning puzzles are paired with face-turning puzzles in this case.

edit: oh, and major props to you, Jason!

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 Post subject: Re: Jason's Icosamate
PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 7:51 pm 
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Andreas Nortmann wrote:
1. Well done, IO

Agreed.
Andreas Nortmann wrote:
2. I agree with EMarx here.
The Pentultimate is the deepcut cousin of the Megaminx.
The Icosmate is its dual shape variant.
The "Skewbic dodecahedron" is Gelatibrain 1.2.9
The dual shape variant is Gelatibrain 2.1.15

I don't disagree with you but I believe this can also be looked at as:

The Icosamate is the "Skewbic Icosahedron"
The Pentultimate is its dual shape variant.

Hmmm... the dual of the "Skewbic Octahedron" is the 2x2x2.

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 Post subject: Re: Jason's Icosamate
PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 8:10 pm 
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that thing must be hell to solve

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 Post subject: Re: Jason's Icosamate
PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 9:31 pm 
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wwwmwww wrote:
Hmmm... the dual of the "Skewbic Octahedron" is the 2x2x2.

That would make the skewbic octahedron an okki gem which to me seems a little far fetched.
The things the pentultimate has in commen with the skewb are (as pointed out earlyer) the fact that it is deep cut and some visual symetry, three colour corners and one colour faces, and this also means that corners need orienting and faces don't. This puzzle lacks the visual symetry but has corner turns just like the skewb.
I feel these puzzles are definatly separate enough for it to remain for the dodecahedral form of a skewb to be a skewb ultimate, which i think you will find is gelatinbrain 1.2.9 with A LOT of bandaging,
Andreas Nortmann wrote:
The dual shape variant is Gelatibrain 2.1.15
There is no such puzzle so i take it you mean 2.1.5 which yet agin is Tony Fisher's icosahedron http://tonyfisherpuzzles.net/024%20Icos ... 20%29.html "unbandaged" (i wish we could just "unbandage" things in real life and have these two great puzzles hahaha).

Well that's just how i see it, have fun arguing over something for which there is no set standards (thank god we all agree on what deep cut means now hahaha)

P.S. how do i get the words Tony Fisher's icosahedron to contain the link and turn blue?

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 Post subject: Re: Jason's Icosamate
PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 12:49 pm 
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This would be the first non skewb deep cut icosahedron right? Excellent work Jason!

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 Post subject: Re: Jason's Icosamate
PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 2:04 pm 
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Elwyn wrote:
wwwmwww wrote:
Hmmm... the dual of the "Skewbic Octahedron" is the 2x2x2.

That would make the skewbic octahedron an okki gem which to me seems a little far fetched.

Well that's just how i see it, have fun arguing over something for which there is no set standards (thank god we all agree on what deep cut means now hahaha)

Not trying to argue... but if we take these:

(1)The "Skewbic dodecahedron" is Gelatibrain 1.2.9
(2)The "Skewbic Cube" is the Skewb

I can only assume Skewbic means deep cut corner turning form of the polyhedra. Is there any other way to take it? If not than I don't see how anything other then the okki gem (I wasn't familiar with that name previously) could be called the "Skewbic octahedron". And that makes Jason's Icosamate the "Skewbic icosahedron".

And to finish out the patonic solids the "Skewbic tetrahedron" is the Halpern-Meier Pyramid.

I don't see what is far fetched about the above as I don't see any other obvious meaning for the term Skewbic. Not that I can't... or haven't... missed the obvious before.

Carl

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 Post subject: Re: Jason's Icosamate
PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 10:55 pm 
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wwwmwww wrote:
Not trying to argue... but if we take these:

(1)The "Skewbic dodecahedron" is Gelatibrain 1.2.9
(2)The "Skewbic Cube" is the Skewb

I can only assume Skewbic means deep cut corner turning form of the polyhedra. Is there any other way to take it? If not than I don't see how anything other then the okki gem (I wasn't familiar with that name previously) could be called the "Skewbic octahedron". And that makes Jason's Icosamate the "Skewbic icosahedron".

And to finish out the patonic solids the "Skewbic tetrahedron" is the Halpern-Meier Pyramid.

I don't see what is far fetched about the above as I don't see any other obvious meaning for the term Skewbic. Not that I can't... or haven't... missed the obvious before.

Carl

hmm perhaps "far fetched" wasn't the right term. All i meant was even though an okki gem (and the icosimate) is deep cut and corner turning it has little to nothing to do with a skewb. The only use of the word skewbic i could find that wasn't in this thread was the first post in this thread http://d56538.u22.qwknetllc.com/forum/v ... &view=next and it was used in relation to a higher order even layer skewb so i guess we have made this meaning of deep cut corner turning polyhedra in this thread :roll:
I also don't see how a face-corner turning tetrahedron can be deep cut as each turn one side has 3 corners and the other has one so how can the HM pyramid be skewbic (according to this new meaning) infact i don't think there can be a "skewbic" tetrahedron because corner turns are also face turns :?

If you take skewbic to just mean closely related to a skewb (which is what i thought it meant) than wouldn't the skewb octahedron be the skewbic octahedron hahahaha.

Well sorry IO for taking this so far off topic but wwwmwww seems to have a habbit of bringing up interesting slightly related things that people want to discuss and i don't think i can stop myself from trying to figure out the answers with him. I sure hope other people find it as interesting as i do :)

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 Post subject: Re: Jason's Icosamate
PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 11:36 pm 
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Is it possible for a Face turning Icosohedron to have the same cuts as this puzzle?
It looks like it would be possible...

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 Post subject: Re: Jason's Icosamate
PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 2:38 am 
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wwwmwww wrote:
I can only assume Skewbic means deep cut corner turning form of the polyhedra. Is there any other way to take it? If not than I don't see how anything other then the okki gem (I wasn't familiar with that name previously) could be called the "Skewbic octahedron". And that makes Jason's Icosamate the "Skewbic icosahedron".

Since there are only two relevant symmetry groups (and their subgroups), namely those of the hexahedron and the dodecahedron, I defined for myself that there are just two Skewbic puzzles, The known Skewb and Gelatibrain 1.2.9. Equivalent but different definition: A Skewbic puzzle is deepcut and restricted to 120° turns.
But that was just my private definition underlying my comments above.


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 Post subject: Re: Jason's Icosamate
PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 5:00 pm 
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elijah wrote:
Is it possible for a Face turning Icosohedron to have the same cuts as this puzzle?


I think such would require non-planar cuts of some sort.

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 Post subject: Re: Jason's Icosamate
PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 5:59 pm 
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Andreas Nortmann wrote:
Since there are only two relevant symmetry groups (and their subgroups), namely those of the hexahedron and the dodecahedron, I defined for myself that there are just two Skewbic puzzles, The known Skewb and Gelatibrain 1.2.9. Equivalent but different definition: A Skewbic puzzle is deepcut and restricted to 120° turns.

Interesting... and that covers the Halpern-Meier Pyramid too as its just a shape mod of the Skewb, I believe.

I still need to brush up on the topic of symmetry groups but aren't the dodecahedron and the icosahedron symmetry groups the same? As such, isn't the choice to pick the dodecahedron as the shape that has a "Skewbic" form sort of arbitrary?

Ahhh... I think I see. You are trying to get away from shape altogether otherwise the Skewb Diamond and Gelatinbrain 2.1.5 fall into your definition of deep cut and restricted to 120° turns. So its not that you are picking the dodecahedron... its that you are picking the symmetry group that is invariant under 120° rotations.

If I'm correct, you just consider the Halpern-Meier Pyramid, the Skewb Diamond, and your basic Skewb as just shape variations of the same puzzle. (Which is really what they are.) The same holds true for the Skewbic Dodecahedron and Gelatinbrain 2.1.5. I can easily buy into that line of thinking. Note this removes the whole issue of face rotation versus corner rotation from the picture too.

I like...
Carl

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 Post subject: Re: Jason's Icosamate
PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 6:49 pm 
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elijah wrote:
Is it possible for a Face turning Icosohedron to have the same cuts as this puzzle?


Only if you can get six axes of rotation to handle twenty faces.


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