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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2010 5:56 pm 
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GB added the Teraminx!!! Open any puzzle and then go to File -> Dodecahedra. Between 1.1.9 (gigaminx) and 1.1.10, there is an empty line. That is the Teraminx! GB hasn't assigned a number to it yet.


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 7:00 am 
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Wow! Some new big chops! 2 variants of a super-big-chop and 3 variants of a circle-big-chop. Too bad I can¬īt do even the big chop itself...

And now that schuma has solved the Teraminx, I can see it too (I thought it was april fools at first), but if I click it I get an error now matter how many times I click it. The other puzzles work fine.

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43,252,003,274,489,856,000. Or the full number in Hungarian is:
Negyvenháromtrillió-kétszázötvenkétbilliárd-hárombillió-kétszázhetvennégymiliárd-négyszáznyolcvankilencmillió-nyolcszázötvenhatezer :wink: )


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 10:31 am 
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Sjoerd wrote:
And now that schuma has solved the Teraminx, I can see it too (I thought it was april fools at first), but if I click it I get an error now matter how many times I click it. The other puzzles work fine.


No, the link in the ranking page does not work. You have to open any puzzle and then go to File -> Dodecahedra. Between 1.1.9 (gigaminx) and 1.1.10, there is an empty line. And that is the Teraminx.


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 3:49 pm 
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oh, THAT file button! I never really noticed that!
Went ahead and solved it. It's weird. The teraminx is something I have always wanted, beacause it's such a cool puzzle, but now that I have had the experience of solving it first hand, I know there are a LOT of other GB puzzles I would rather own for real. Compared to the 'weirder' puzzles, the Teraminx just seems long and tedious, but not difficult.

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Olivér Nagy wrote:
43,252,003,274,489,856,000. Or the full number in Hungarian is:
Negyvenháromtrillió-kétszázötvenkétbilliárd-hárombillió-kétszázhetvennégymiliárd-négyszáznyolcvankilencmillió-nyolcszázötvenhatezer :wink: )


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 12:38 am 
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Sjoerd wrote:
oh, THAT file button! I never really noticed that!
Went ahead and solved it. It's weird. The teraminx is something I have always wanted, beacause it's such a cool puzzle, but now that I have had the experience of solving it first hand, I know there are a LOT of other GB puzzles I would rather own for real. Compared to the 'weirder' puzzles, the Teraminx just seems long and tedious, but not difficult.
I feel the same way. I was really excited to get the MF8 teraminx. The quality is nice but solving that thing really is tedious. I'll give the the Gelatin Brain teraminx a solve tonight but as for puzzles I'd rather own, any of 1.1.{4,5,6,7,8,10,37,39} would be amazing.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 3:51 pm 
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Someone PMed me that the exe version doesn't work on Windows 7/x64 (the applet works fine).Does anyone have the same problem?

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 5:41 pm 
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1.1.14 8-) Since there are only two solvers I took screen shots throughout the solve:

1: Scrambled:
Attachment:
1_scrambled.png
1_scrambled.png [ 34.55 KiB | Viewed 4329 times ]
Looks daunting but is actually pretty simple.

2: Pair >< pieces:
Attachment:
2_edges_paired.png
2_edges_paired.png [ 35.05 KiB | Viewed 4329 times ]
I used a ((1,1),1) commutator where the (1,1) are slice moves just like 1.1.20/1.1.18.

3: Solve pyraminx crystal:
Attachment:
3_pyraminx_crystal.png
3_pyraminx_crystal.png [ 34.57 KiB | Viewed 4329 times ]
I ran into two edges swapped (parity). To solve you have to go back to step 2 and fix the pairings.

4: Solve centers:
Attachment:
4_centers.png
4_centers.png [ 34.52 KiB | Viewed 4329 times ]
There are many ways to do this. Just use something from 1.1.4 or 1.1.7. I used a ((1,1),1) routine non-pure.

5: Solve the 1-color hexagons:
Attachment:
5_hexagons.png
5_hexagons.png [ 34.29 KiB | Viewed 4329 times ]
I used a big cube centers routine (3,1) non-pure.

6: Solve wide triangles:
Attachment:
6_wide_triangles.png
6_wide_triangles.png [ 33.14 KiB | Viewed 4329 times ]
These can be solved pure just like small triangles on 1.1.4 ((1,1),1) but use slice moves for the (1,1) part.

7: Solve slim triangles:
Attachment:
7_solved.png
7_solved.png [ 38.05 KiB | Viewed 4329 times ]
I used an inefficient routine from 1.1.4 because I knew I couldn't beat Julian's move count and I find the setup moves easier with it. Can be solved ((1,1),1) pure just like 1.1.4/1.1.5.

Now I have to figure out 1.1.17 and 1.1.19 and I will have solved all of the non-circle face-turning-dodecahedra :D.

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Last edited by Brandon Enright on Sun Apr 04, 2010 7:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 6:46 pm 
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gelatinbrain wrote:
Someone PMed me that the exe version doesn't work on Windows 7/x64 (the applet works fine).Does anyone have the same problem?

I just downloaded it to test it for you and it doesn't work for me either.


Attachments:
test.PNG
test.PNG [ 70.42 KiB | Viewed 4321 times ]

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 7:12 pm 
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Bigandrewgold wrote:
gelatinbrain wrote:
Someone PMed me that the exe version doesn't work on Windows 7/x64 (the applet works fine).Does anyone have the same problem?

I just downloaded it to test it for you and it doesn't work for me either.


Windows 7 professional x64 here. Works like a charm.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2010 12:19 am 
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Sjoerd wrote:
Compared to the 'weirder' puzzles, the Teraminx just seems long and tedious, but not difficult.
I agree but that didn't stop me trying to see how few moves i could do it in and i'm also interested in how long/few moves Michael can do it in using gelatinbrain.
Pretty happy with 1415 (that's less than 2 moves per sticker or 3 moves per piece) but i know i can do better.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2010 5:43 am 
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Bigandrewgold wrote:
gelatinbrain wrote:
Someone PMed me that the exe version doesn't work on Windows 7/x64 (the applet works fine).Does anyone have the same problem?

I just downloaded it to test it for you and it doesn't work for me either.

I got that on Vista too last night, but didn't post. :(

Alex

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 2:02 am 
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gelatinbrain just gave us a new puzzle 1.1.42 :!:

It's 1.1.5 (Starminx) + 1.1.12 (Flowerminx/Impossiball) hybrid :D. The solution is a combination of 1.1.14 and 1.1.17. I haven't solved 1.1.17 but I have a working solution that I hope to use tomorrow to solve it.

For 1.1.42:

0) Take a screenshot of the color scheme for easier positioning of edge pieces.

1) Solve split Pyraminx crystal edges together in pairs non-pure. Instead of pairing them all (like big-cube-edges) and then solving as pairs, it is easier to place one and then the other. My 4x4x4 edge pairing works nicely here, yours should too. If you pair before solving you have to move each face with it's slice to keep the pairs together. This is the same as the edges in 1.1.17 and is similar to the edges in 2.2.9

2) Solve the outer long triangles similar to wide triangles on 1.1.14 with a ((1,1),1) commutator but use a ctrl+click for the slice on the second half of the commutator.

3) Solve the center small triangles like step 2 ((1,1),1) but keep everything as shift+click.


gelatinbrain, I love these new hybrid face-turning-dodecahedra you are making! Your hard work and creativity is greatly appreciated. Thank you, I can't wait to play with the new puzzles :D

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 5:09 am 
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Cool! I love all these 1.1.x hybrids too!

The screenshot if very needed if there is only edges to orientate yourself on. I learned that the hard way once.

But an easier way might be to keep your real pyraminx crystal (if you have one) with you, beacuse it has the exact same color scheme as the dodecahedra on GB

Thank gelatin!

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Olivér Nagy wrote:
43,252,003,274,489,856,000. Or the full number in Hungarian is:
Negyvenháromtrillió-kétszázötvenkétbilliárd-hárombillió-kétszázhetvennégymiliárd-négyszáznyolcvankilencmillió-nyolcszázötvenhatezer :wink: )


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 5:51 pm 
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Sjoerd wrote:
But an easier way might be to keep your real pyraminx crystal (if you have one) with you, beacuse it has the exact same color scheme as the dodecahedra on GB
:) My Pyraminx Crystal never leaves my desk, for that very reason!

The new dodeca puzzles keep on coming:

1.1.43 = circle 1.1.42

1.2.6c, 1.2.6d, 1.2.6e = color variants of 1.2.6, where 1.2.6e is the super version
1.2.15 = circle 1.2.6
1.2.15b = circle 1.2.6b

1.4.3b, 1.4.3c = color variants of 1.4.3, where 1.4.3c is the super version
1.4.7 = circle 1.4.3
1.4.7b = circle 1.4.3b
1.4.7c = circle 1.4.3c

----------------------------------------------------------------

1.4.7 = Circle Big Chop

Solve the non-circle pieces like a regular Big Chop: choose left-handed or right-handed pieces to solve first, position some intuitively, then solve the rest with non pure (8,1) cycles, then solve the other half with pure (12,1) or (14,1) cycles. I posted hints and actual algos earlier in this thread.

Then cycle the circle pieces with pure (10,1) cycles. Hint: Find two edges A and B such that (AB)*3 leaves all the non-circle pieces unaffected but moves 8 circle pieces (4 swaps). Then find 2 setup moves to leave a single swapped circle piece in a half.


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 6:14 pm 
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gelatinbrain wrote:
Someone PMed me that the exe version doesn't work on Windows 7/x64 (the applet works fine).Does anyone have the same problem?
They might need to upgrade or reinstall their video drivers. When I started using Windows 7 nothing happened when I launched the Gelatinbrain exe apart from a busy icon for a second. But after I downloaded and installed the latest driver for my video card, it worked again. My guess is that OpenGL support was missing from the default driver that installed with my Windows 7 (perhaps related to Microsoft pushing DirectX rather than OpenGL nowadays, from what I have read).


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 2:33 am 
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1.1.17 :evil: Nothing about this puzzle was terribly difficult but it all came together to make a rather long, challenging puzzle.

Take screenshot of solved puzzle to use as template for placing the edge pieces in the correct color scheme.

0) Scrambled:
Attachment:
1_scrambled.png
1_scrambled.png [ 34.18 KiB | Viewed 4215 times ]
Piece recognition is really hard for this puzzle. Unlike some of the other "soccer ball" puzzles, it seems to stay hard the whole time.

1) Solve edge pieces:
Attachment:
2_edges_solved.png
2_edges_solved.png [ 34.14 KiB | Viewed 4215 times ]
You can treat the two parts of the Pyraminx Crystal edge piece somewhat independently. You can cycle each with a (1,1) commutator. Slice-Face-Slice'-Face' rather than all face moves like the Pyraminx Crystal. I ran into a parity where two pairs of pieces were swapped. It took me an hour to get out of this situation and about 500 moves. At least 450 of those moves were wasted trying stupid things before I started to think clearly about what was needed.

2) Solve centers:
Attachment:
3_centers_done.png
3_centers_done.png [ 34.02 KiB | Viewed 4215 times ]
I used a ((1,1),1) commutator like 1.1.4 non-pure.

3) Solve the small triangles:
Attachment:
4_small_triangles.png
4_small_triangles.png [ 33.87 KiB | Viewed 4215 times ]
I used a ((1,1),1) non-pure commutator. Pretty simple Pyraminx Crystal style setup, face move, undo. I know I've used this routine on another 1.1.x puzzle but I can't figure out which now.

4) Solve the wide triangles:
Attachment:
5_wide_triangles.png
5_wide_triangles.png [ 33.3 KiB | Viewed 4215 times ]
I used a (3,1) commutator pure. The same one as on 1.1.8/1.1.37.

5) Solve the big triangles:
Attachment:
6_big_triangles.png
6_big_triangles.png [ 37.27 KiB | Viewed 4215 times ]
I used a ((1,1),1) commutator, the same as the small triangles on 1.1.4 or wide triangles on 1.1.14. EDIT: Because ctrl+click isn't available this routine is actually (4,3).

This was my longest solve on Gelatinbrain. I was distracted for about 45 minutes but that still puts the solve at more than 3 hours. I was also solving very slow because recognition on this puzzle is hard and I'm tired. With a fresh mind I have no doubt this can be solve in 1.5 hours rather easily with practice. Also, I was not going for fewest moves so I really wasted a bunch, especially in the beginning. Julian's move count is easily beatable if you are careful.

Now I'm tied with Noah. I know he hasn't had the opportunity to solve any of the new puzzles but solving the 1.1.17 beast almost makes me feel like I've earned it :lol:

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Last edited by Brandon Enright on Wed Apr 07, 2010 8:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 3:37 pm 
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bmenrigh wrote:
1.1.17 :evil: Nothing about this puzzle was terribly difficult but it all came together to make a rather long, challenging puzzle. ... Julian's move count is easily beatable if you are careful.
Nice solution outline! 1.1.17 was one of my early solves. I remember finding the diamond edges very tricky at the beginning, and finishing with (8,1) pure cycles of the wide triangles because that was the best I could find and I was just happy to find a solution. Over 18 months and 140 puzzles later, it's interesting seeing how much more efficient your algos are in comparison. This puzzle is probably solvable in under 2,000 moves.

Having experimented with your suggested algos, I see that the centers and thin triangles can be solved non pure with (3,1) commutators, which saves a few moves.

:? When you solve the big triangles at the end, how do you move the swapped triangle? As far as I can see, it takes 4 moves to simulate an equator slice, so in actual move count it would be (4,4) to cycle the big triangles pure. When I get around to resolving 1.1.17, I'm going to cycle the big triangles non pure (4,1), where the 1 is a regular move, just before or after the centers, and finish with the wide triangles pure.


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 4:17 pm 
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Thank you guys for testing!

Julian wrote:
My guess is that OpenGL support was missing from the default driver that installed with my Windows 7 (perhaps related to Microsoft pushing DirectX rather than OpenGL nowadays, from what I have read).


Once again, a case of monopoly abuse :( But I will NEVER convert to DirectX!
Better do not upgrade the OS unless it is absolutely necessary.
I'm still using Windows 2000 for private and don't have any major inconveniences. 8-)

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 5:35 pm 
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I've recently found some pure algos to finish puzzles that are shorter than my previous attempts:

1.2.8 - OLD (12,slice) NEW (8,1)
1.3.2 - OLD (14,1) NEW (8,1)
3.5.1 - OLD (12,1) NEW (10,1)
3.6.2 - OLD (14,1) NEW (8,1)
4.5.1 - OLD (14,1) NEW (8,1)

The basis of all of these is two turns as far apart as possible back and forth. I've included an actual algo for the last one in invisible ink; drag your mouse across to see.


1.2.8 - Almost deep cut corner turns
((2 setups) (1,1) (2 setups)', 1) = (8,1)

Image


1.3.2 - Deep cut face and corner turns
((2 setups) (1,1) (2 setups)', 1) = (8,1)

Image
Can use the same algo to finish the equivalent puzzle 2.4.1


3.5.1 - 2x2x2 + Little Chop
((1 setup) (3,1) (1 setup)', 1) = (10,1)

Image


3.6.2 - 2x2x2 + Skewb + Little Chop
((3,1), 1) = (8,1)

Image


4.5.1 - Skewb Diamond + Octa Chop
((3,1), 1) = (8,1)

Image

[UBR',FL,UBR,RB]*2,
UFL',
[RB,UBR',FL,UBR]*2,
UFL


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 8:32 pm 
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Julian wrote:
Nice solution outline!
Thanks! I've been worried people don't want long and detailed posts with lots of screenshots. I figured 1.1.14 and 1.1.17 were okay though with only 2 solvers.
Julian wrote:
1.1.17 was one of my early solves. I remember finding the diamond edges very tricky at the beginning, and finishing with (8,1) pure cycles of the wide triangles because that was the best I could find and I was just happy to find a solution. Over 18 months and 140 puzzles later, it's interesting seeing how much more efficient your algos are in comparison. This puzzle is probably solvable in under 2,000 moves.
I've come a long way too. It feels good to be able to look back at "easy" puzzles like 1.1.4 and think of how hard I found them at first. I aspire to improve as much as you have; I'm very impressed at your routines, especially the short pure ones. I'm sure 1.1.17 can be solved in under 2000. If I were very careful not to waste moves I would probably get around 2000. Your suggested reorder of the solve should be able to dip into the 1800s.
Julian wrote:
Having experimented with your suggested algos, I see that the centers and thin triangles can be solved non pure with (3,1) commutators, which saves a few moves.
I saw you say you had a (3,1) non-pure on another puzzle with equivalent pieces to the thin triangles on this. My (4,1) is just a commutated 1.1.3 routine. I haven't found a way to do it non-pure in (3,1). I also haven't figured out the centers in (3,1). Is that a routine that would also work on 1.1.4 non-pure?
Julian wrote:
:? When you solve the big triangles at the end, how do you move the swapped triangle? As far as I can see, it takes 4 moves to simulate an equator slice, so in actual move count it would be (4,4) to cycle the big triangles pure.
Shoot, this is what I get for posting while being so tired. I think of it as a 1-move slice (ctrl+click) but indeed, I am moving the rest of the puzzle around the slice. You can actually do it in 3 moves for this one because no pieces are moved into the U face by the routine so you don't have to turn it. It should be (4,4) but in practice is (4,3). Not (4,1) like I suggested.
Julian wrote:
When I get around to resolving 1.1.17, I'm going to cycle the big triangles non pure (4,1), where the 1 is a regular move, just before or after the centers, and finish with the wide triangles pure.
Good idea, this will likely save 200+ moves. I haven't investigated non-pure routines for the big triangles yet though.

You're still the master of the edge-turning puzzles. Those scare the heck out of me. I'm running out of non-circle face turning puzzles. I guess next is the 1.2.x series.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 5:32 pm 
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bmenrigh wrote:
My (4,1) is just a commutated 1.1.3 routine. I haven't found a way to do it non-pure in (3,1). I also haven't figured out the centers in (3,1). Is that a routine that would also work on 1.1.4 non-pure?
Yes, it does. Just miss out the last move of your 4, and then look around for a swapped center...
bmenrigh wrote:
I'm running out of non-circle face turning puzzles. I guess next is the 1.2.x series.
Good luck! Leaving aside the circle puzzles, I'd rate 1.2.1 easy; 1.2.12 fairly easy; 1.2.2, 1.2.3, 1.2.6, 1.2.10 & 1.2.11 medium; 1.2.4 & 1.2.5 quite difficult; and 1.2.7-1.2.9 very difficult.


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 5:48 pm 
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1.1.42

1. Edges. Start intuitively, then switch to (1,1) non pure cycles.
2. Big triangles. Cycle (3,1) non pure.
3. Center triangles. Cycle (3,1) pure.

1.1.43 (= circle 1.1.42)

1. Edges (the parts outside the circles) like 1.1.42.
2. Big triangles (the parts outside the circles) like 1.1.42.
3. 4-sided circle pieces (5,1) non pure.
4. Outer circle triangles (5,1) pure.
5. Center triangles like 1.1.42.


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 4:24 pm 
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1.1.31

This has wide slice moves like 1.1.4 (Tropic-Tropic) rather than the thinner slice moves of 1.1.32-1.1.34 (Tropic-Equator). This makes the puzzle more similar to a circle 1.1.4 (1.1.25) with crucial extra pieces than 1.1.18.

Image

1 & 2: Solve corners and edges like a Pyraminx Crystal (1.1.3).
3: Cycle centers with non pure (3,1) commutators, like the centers of 1.1.4.
4: Cycle with non pure (6,1) commutators.
5: Cycle with non pure (1+(3,1)+1, 1) = (10,1) commutators.
6: Cycle with pure (1+(3,1)+1, 1) = (10,1) commutators.


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sat Apr 10, 2010 1:11 am 
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I just solved 1.1.30 for my first fewest moves record (1410, easily beatable). Circe-1.1.x puzzles are deceiving; I almost always end up with a "oh [Censored. Please be nice!]" moment when I realize the setup moves I was planning on using don't always work with the circle pieces :? . I don't yet have an intuition for how to move circle pieces so they take a ton of work.

I ended up solving:

1) Solve corners like 1.1.12
2) Solve circle pieces (3,1) non-pure just like 1.1.8 but using different setup moves. Setup moves towards the end required quite a bit of thought for me.
3) Solve "circle bitten" pieces (8,1). This was brain-dead mechanics that I could do in my sleep.

Julian, you said you had a (3,3) routine to do phase 3. I couldn't find it :evil:

Speaking of routines, I have been trying to solve 1.1.19 but I can't (for the live of me!) find a pure routine for the wide center triangles. I can do everything else pretty cleanly but I have to solve the wide triangles last with my current strategy.

Julian, I've never found a pure cycle for center triangles that are centered next to an edge rather than a corner. That is, I don't have pure cycles for the edge-matched-center-triangles on 1.1.8 or 1.1.17 or any other puzzle with similar pieces. I always end up using a non-pure routine either a ((1,1),1) based on 1.1.3 moves or a big-cubes centers routine. This is biting me in the ass for 1.1.19 which I can solve all the way to the wide center triangles. Hints (provided you're willing) would be appreciated.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sat Apr 10, 2010 1:15 am 
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For the circle 1.1.x puzzles i have solved i found slice moves to be helpfull set ups. Even just use them to rotate just the cicle on a face.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sat Apr 10, 2010 9:29 am 
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bmenrigh wrote:
Speaking of routines, I have been trying to solve 1.1.19 but I can't (for the live of me!) find a pure routine for the wide center triangles. I can do everything else pretty cleanly but I have to solve the wide triangles last with my current strategy.
l' R2 l isolates a wide triangle in a slice and dr' d' dr isolates a wide triangle in a face. The latter can be shortened to 7 moves if you're reducing to a Megaminx. Also, see how to shorten a (3,1) commutator to cycle arrow edges non pure in just 5 moves, not caring if the Megaminx pieces get moved around. Solve centers, reduce edges, arrows then triangles, then solve the Megaminx. I didn't think of this when I first solved it but it's a more efficient method, as Michael's move count shows.

bmenrigh wrote:
Julian, I've never found a pure cycle for center triangles that are centered next to an edge rather than a corner. That is, I don't have pure cycles for the edge-matched-center-triangles on 1.1.8 or 1.1.17 or any other puzzle with similar pieces. Hints (provided you're willing) would be appreciated.
I don't use a pure cycle for the center triangles. I can see possible (7,1) algos, but I wouldn't use them. With puzzles like that I cycle the thin triangles non pure then the wide triangles pure.
bmenrigh wrote:
1.1.30

Julian, you said you had a (3,3) routine to do phase 3. I couldn't find it :evil:
The first 3 is l' R2 l. The (3,3) can just as easily be rearranged to (5,1) too, I realized after posting.


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2010 6:30 pm 
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Julian wrote:
l' R2 l isolates a wide triangle in a slice and dr' d' dr isolates a wide triangle in a face.

Brilliant :!: It took me about 45 seconds of looking on the first to see how the wide triangle got isolated in the slice. I'm surprised I didn't see or try that :? As for the second, it didn't even seem possible to isolate a wide triangle in a face. I'm impressed. I kept trying things a little too similar to the wide triangles on 1.1.8. I'll give 1.1.19 a solve when I've rearranged these a bit and added setup moves that I'm comfortable with. Thank you very much!

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sat Apr 17, 2010 6:58 am 
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1.2.15

First solve the 1.2.6:

1) Pentagon centers (1,1)
2) Bitten thin triangles (3,1)
3) Bitten wide triangles (3,1)

Then the circle pieces:

4) Thin/corner-pointing (5,1)
5) Wide/edge-adjacent (7,1)

Only the last algo is pure. (Stage 3 would be pure with 1.2.6.)


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sat Apr 17, 2010 9:33 pm 
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5.2.x:
The edge-turning tetrahedra are difficult to figure out intuitively. Considering they are very simple puzzles and yet have so few solvers I think others are struggling with them too. This post is meant as a general solution outline rather than a step-by-step guide.

There is a single basic building block that with a bit of work can be used to cycle any type of piece in any of the 5.2.x puzzles.

First, to 3-cycle inner triangles adjacent to the corners a simple X Y X' Y' where X and Y are edges that meet at a corner. Since X and X' are the same on edge turning puzzles this is just A B A B where A and B are two adjacent edges that share a corner. By turning X or Y into a slice move (but generally not both) rather than a edge move, pieces closer to the center of the puzzle can be cycled.

This routine always 3-cycles corners along with the central triangles. Corners can be solved pure later.

To cycle other pieces, X, Y, X', Y' can be commutated to 3-cycle corners or edges or even the central triangles that are part of the a edge on the bigger puzzles. For example, by picking another edge, Z on the same face that X and Y are on, the commutated commutator sequence ((X, Y), Z) will 3-cycle corners pure. Written out fully: X Y X Y Z Y X Y X Z (10 moves).

By changing combinations of X, Y, and Z to slice moves, centers or edge pieces can be 3-cycled. By commutating the whole sequence you can get a 2-2 swap of the small edge triangle between edge pieces (like on 5.2.5).

Unlike the 5.1.x series where my method is to solve the outer shell and work my way into the centers, on the 5.2.x puzzles I solve from the center out, finishing with the corners.

5.1.1:
The edge pieces on this puzzle can't move. Just twist each edge to the right orientation relative to each other. Then 3-cycle the center triangles until everything but the corners are solved. Finally, 3-cycle the corners.

5.1.2:
The edge pieces in this puzzle are in 3 orbitals of 4 pieces each. Pair/solve all of the edges. Then solve the central triangles adjacent to the corners. Then solve the central triangles that split up the edge pieces (they are in 3 orbitals of 4 pieces just like the edges). 3-cycle the center triangles into place and and then finish with corners.

The center-most triangles in this puzzle can end up with a parity (just two swapped). The parity can be avoided at the beginning by placing all of the corners and then moving the centers into place (shift-click an edge) relative to the corners. Once the corners and centers are "solved" as long as an even number of slice and edge moves are done no parity will come up and you can solve like normal allowing the corners and centers to be broken.

5.1.3:
This puzzle is somewhat unique and relates to a 3x3x3 Rubik's cube scrambled with half-turns only just like a Mastermorphix relates to a Rubix's cube. I solved the 3x3x3 corners intuitively and then the 3x3x3 edges with a 2-2 swap using (XY)x3 (6 moves).

5.1.4:
The center triangles adjacent to the corners in this puzzle are split into two pieces. Cycle the outer trapezoids like 5.2.1 (moves the cut off triangle tip too) and then solve the cut off triangle tips by commutating the original routine with a slice move. Will result in a 2-2 swap.

Then pair/solve all of the edges. To solve the center diamonds commute the edge pairing routine. Finish with the corners pure.

5.1.5:
Like on 5.1.2, this puzzle you should first place corners and centers to avoid parity. It is also easy to twist the triangles that touch the edges and point to the corners intuitively. Before you start solving you the corners, centers, and the three small triangles pointing at the corners but touching the centers should all be solved. The corners will get messed up in the rest of the solve.

Then solve the outer triangles adjacent to the corners. Then 2-2 swap the center triangles touching the edge pieces and finish with the corners.

5.1.6, 5.1.7, 5.1.8:
These all have basically the same solution and can be solved by piecing together routines from previous puzzles. Start with 5.1.8 as it is the easiest visually.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2010 4:47 pm 
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I finally solved 2.1.1 8-) That thing had been intimidating me every time I loaded the Gelatinbrain page so it feels really good to solve it. In all it was pretty easy and the setup moves felt natural. There are a ton of pieces though and the base routine that I commutated to move the various pieces was 8 moves (borrowed from FTO).

I solved edges intuitively. After that I placed corners and then oriented them intuitively. This phase turned out to be much easier than I expected. I then 3-cycled the center big-diamonds (8,1) and finished with the 60 small triangles (8,3).

More people should tackle this puzzle, it's easier than some of the big dodecahedra.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 10:46 am 
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Ok some smart person please help me! I am really desperate.
I started solving 1.2.2 and I figured out 3 algorithms. I can solve everything except for the orientation of the corners. I did figure out an alg to work on that too but it is 57 moves long, for orientating 3 corners! (not even corners of one face, let alone adjacent corners) My alg basically consists of a couple of other algs that I use but my problem is this now:

Image

There is only this one corner orientated wrong. I have enough experience and knowladge about puzzles to tell that this parity can't be solved, which means I built up the centers wrong, kind of like it is possible on a 4x4 cube. However there is still hope in me that I won't have to start over again.
Can anyone tell?

EDIT: holy cow, I just had an idea. If I just turn the corner so that the little cornerpiece is orientated correctly, I geht 3 corners that are placed wrong (those can be solved) plus I get 3 of the edges that are placed wrong (can that be solved?) plus I get some of the litte triangles wrong (I am really sure those can be placed back and be solved again)
Am I correct with this?

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 10:59 am 
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alaskajoe wrote:
Ok some smart person please help me! I am really desperate.
I started solving 1.2.2 and I figured out 3 algorithms. I can solve everything except for the orientation of the corners. I did figure out an alg to work on that too but it is 57 moves long, for orientating 3 corners! (not even corners of one face, let alone adjacent corners) My alg basically consists of a couple of other algs that I use but my problem is this now:

Image

There is only this one corner orientated wrong. I have enough experience and knowladge about puzzles to tell that this parity can't be solved, which means I built up the centers wrong, kind of like it is possible on a 4x4 cube. However there is still hope in me that I won't have to start over again.
Can anyone tell?


I was also astonished when this situation happened. The thing is, the centers you built are not consistent with the orientations of corners. A simple solution is, twist the wrong corner to the correct orientation. Then fix all the affected pieces. You only need to do several 3-cycles to fix the affected pieces, which is doable.


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 11:15 am 
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HA! :lol:
for everyone who is now interested in this (although I guess it has been discussed sometime already, since this thread is huge)
I did what I added to my last post.
Turn that corner. Rearrange edges. At that point I had to solve a lot of corners again. Since I startet the puzzles by solving the edges intuitively, I don't have clean cycles for them. But after rearranging the corners is a very tricky way I must say, I have this:

Image

I wanted to check first befor solving all the triangles. I solved those before the corners last time. I will solve them now and than again solve the corners back. I just wanted to see for the corners so I left them out of the rearrangin part after the ultimately smart turn of the corner :lol:
I feel smart right now.
Hopefully I won't get any weird parity for the triangles now.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 11:19 am 
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Quote:
I was also astonished when this situation happened. The thing is, the centers you built are not consistent with the orientations of corners. A simple solution is, twist the wrong corner to the correct orientation. Then fix all the affected pieces. You only need to do several 3-cycles to fix the affected pieces, which is doable.


yes, you got it, shuma. I should not edit my posts this often and instead rather create a second one immediately. Apparantly you answered my post before I eddited it. I added exactly what you said to it. you can read it now. But thanks for your help anyway, the additional explenation about the centers and the confirmation that my plan will work. :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 11:33 am 
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What a beast. My hardest puzzle so far.
sigh...
that was a long fight.
but I WIN! :D

Image

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 1:59 am 
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alaskajoe wrote:
What a beast. My hardest puzzle so far.
sigh...
that was a long fight.
but I WIN! :D
Great job :) You have a lot of good solves already though! Almost all of your solves are impressively fast. You also have a decent variety of solves including 1.1.10, 1.2.1, 1.4.1, 3.3.1, 3.4.2, 3.4.5, 4.1.3, 4.2.3, 5.1.4, 5.2.1. I'd say using your existing knowledge you could easily solve 60+ puzzles before you have to resort to any new tricks.

alaskajoe wrote:
Hopefully I won't get any weird parity for the triangles now.
I haven't attempted 1.2.2 yet but I just gave it a quick poke and it is quickly apparent that the puzzle can't have any 2-color edge position parity, any corner position parity, or any non-easily-solved center triangle parity.

To see the and corners edges can't have any parity position parity, observe that the only move you can do (shift click here just does two moves) 3-cycles edges and 3-cycles corners. A 3-cycle maintains the current parity at either even or odd and can't switch between even and odd. Since the puzzle starts out in "even" parity the edges and corners can't ever leave even parity.

The same pieces-per-move counting trick is harder to apply to the triangles but there is an easier trick. It is easy to see that there is only one orbital for the triangles. That is, it's you can place any arbitrary triangle in any arbitrary triangle location on the puzzle. Since there are many indistinguishable same-color triangles it doesn't matter if they can switch between even and odd parity since you can always hide any potential parity by taking advantage of how many indistinguishable pieces you have.

To try to analyze the corner orientations, notice it is easy to twist two corners in opposite directions (pure), leaving the total twist of the puzzle constant. Also notice though that a single move changes the total twist of the puzzle. Since the other pieces don't go into any parity there is nothing forbidding you from solving all the other pieces with the total corner twist != 0. This is the situation you ended up in.

Finally, don't bother worrying about single-edge orientation parity, I'm yet to run into a puzzle with this type of parity. On edge turning puzzles you could get into this situation but the orientation parity of an edge is tied to the position parity of the corners so you can always restrict one by solving the other. Of course, 4x4x4 cube style edge-group orientation parity is something completely different. If you run into two edges that need to be flipped I see a simple (1,6) routine to do it pretty cleanly (still non-pure). I wouldn't classify two edges flipped as a parity.

As an aside, 1.2.2 is quite similar to everything except the small 2-color triangles on 2.2.1.

I guess now I need to solve 1.2.2 :oops:

EDIT: On further inspection of 1.2.2, it easy to put +1 or -1 total twist into the puzzle without permuting the 2-color edges using (A B A' B) x 2 where A and B are adjacent vertices (they share an edge). This puts a 3-cycle into the corners and slightly messes up the 1-color triangles. By using this routine rather than just twisting a vertex, you don't permute the edges at all. After you permute and untwist the corners you'll end up with an excess twist corner twist.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 1:26 pm 
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I figured out my own solution to the Helicopter Cube [3.3.1] (the virtual one will have to do until I get some money :wink:). :D

Here's how I solve it:

1. Solve the centres of one face intuitively.
2. Solve the corners around that face (again, intuitively).
3. Solve the bottom layers (holding solved face as the bottom) centres using 3 cycles.
4. Intuitively solve the rest of the centres.
5. Use algorithms to permute corners.
6. Use algorithms to orient corners.

:D

Alex

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 3:05 pm 
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[Double post, but it's about a different puzzle]

Just solved 1.4.1! :D I got to the last layer with my own helicopter algorithms, but go stuck on the last layer corners. I eventually worked out permutation with my helicopter algorithms and managed to orient most corners with my own algorithms but got stuck here:

Attachment:
helicopterdodecahedron2cornersflipped.jpg
helicopterdodecahedron2cornersflipped.jpg [ 114.02 KiB | Viewed 3674 times ]


I finally worked it out by adapting my helicopter algorithm with lots of setup moves. It must have taken me 20-30 minutes to solve these two pieces. :roll: :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 1:01 pm 
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Solved another Helicopter related puzzle: 3.3.9! :D

It took me a while to work out what the 'circle' parts were relating to but I still managed to finish in 18:23 (minutes, not hours :wink:). I'm sure that my solution isn't the most efficient. I'm getting addicted to GB now, hopefully I'll soon be solving difficult puzzles!

Just a question, isn't 3.3.9 effectively equivalent to a Curvy Copter?

Alex

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 1:07 pm 
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:( I just realized exactly how not excited I am about a circle cube.

Thanks, GB. I still want one, though, but it's not AS exciting now that I solved it. I should start on some harder puzzles.

:( Stupid super cube.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 4:24 pm 
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Some of the other circle cubes offer interesting and unexpected variety. Most are in some way based off of super cube concepts but not all :wink:

Try 3.1.15. If you need help, I had an extensive monologue on it a few pages back in this thread.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 8:17 pm 
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APJ wrote:
Solved another Helicopter related puzzle: 3.3.9! :D

It took me a while to work out what the 'circle' parts were relating to but I still managed to finish in 18:23 (minutes, not hours :wink:). I'm sure that my solution isn't the most efficient. I'm getting addicted to GB now, hopefully I'll soon be solving difficult puzzles!

Just a question, isn't 3.3.9 effectively equivalent to a Curvy Copter?

Alex

Good job on 3.3.9 :!: I have always been intimidated by that puzzle so I never gave it a serious try. Your solve gave me the confidence to give it a go :D I'm surprised how straight-forward it was. I still can't solve the Circle FTO and I consider myself somewhat "good" at all of the FTO variants on GB :?

You're right that 3.3.9 and the Curvy Copter are equivalent even though they show edge orientations in a different manner.

If you can tackle 3.3.9 in 18 minutes you can easily tackle many of the other GB puzzles.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 4:05 pm 
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bmenrigh wrote:
APJ wrote:
Solved another Helicopter related puzzle: 3.3.9! :D

It took me a while to work out what the 'circle' parts were relating to but I still managed to finish in 18:23 (minutes, not hours :wink:). I'm sure that my solution isn't the most efficient. I'm getting addicted to GB now, hopefully I'll soon be solving difficult puzzles!

Just a question, isn't 3.3.9 effectively equivalent to a Curvy Copter?

Alex

Good job on 3.3.9 :!:
If you can tackle 3.3.9 in 18 minutes you can easily tackle many of the other GB puzzles.

Thanks, this weekend I might do a proper speedsolve of 3.3.9 as I was just working it out as I went along. I also just figured out 5.1.4 (Master Pyraminx) in 7:08 as I went along (which I was quite impressed with - I was sure it'd take me longer to work out :D).

btw, I really want a Helicopter Cube and a Curvy Copter now - I need more money! :lol: :roll:

EDIT: Just solved 3.3.9 again, I got 6:11. :D

Alex

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Last edited by APJ on Sat May 01, 2010 8:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 5:28 pm 
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So close on 5.1.18 :evil:
Attachment:
5.1.18_so_close.png
5.1.18_so_close.png [ 12.53 KiB | Viewed 3575 times ]

I think I have to place those little circle cuts at the beginning. This puzzle is surprisingly challenging to figure out.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2010 5:46 am 
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bmenrigh wrote:
So close on 5.1.18 :evil: I think I have to place those little circle cuts at the beginning. This puzzle is surprisingly challenging to figure out.
I'm finding it tough too. I think you're right about solving those pieces at the beginning. I can see they come in 6 pairs but I haven't figured out how to match them to the corners yet. Lining up the skinny pieces after that is trivial tip twists, and from there I have a solution:

Match bitten center wedges to corners using 8 move algos.
Match whole center wedges to edges using (5,1) commutators.
Solve the reduced Pyraminx.

Edit: Now I see that the 6 pairs of small center pieces move and solve like the edges of a Pyraminx or Jing Pyraminx.


Last edited by Julian on Sat May 01, 2010 4:18 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2010 5:49 am 
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if you want the easy way out without clicking solve set the scramble to 500 and then lol keep hitting undo lol it will count as a solve on my thing but i dont know about gelatin brain's :D

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2010 1:04 pm 
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Julian wrote:
I can see they come in 6 pairs but I haven't figured out how to match them to the corners yet.
Julian wrote:
Edit: Now I see that the 6 pairs of small center pieces move and solve like the edges of a Pyraminx or Pyraminx Crystal.
Yeah I see that now too, thanks for the tip. On the tetrahedra a vertex twist and face twist are the same thing. Trouble is, face twists change the orientation of the puzzle relative to what a vertex twist would do. I'm finding executing even a single (1,1) routine very difficult to do reliably. Your time of 52 minutes makes sense but the less than 20 minute times of Micheal, Schuma, and Sjoerd are amazing. I guess I'm going to practice my vertex-twisting routines as face-twist+reorient routines.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2010 1:29 pm 
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/*000000*/B,
/*000001*/DCA',
/*000002*/D',
/*000003*/CBA,
/*000004*/A',
/*000005*/DBC,
/*000006*/CAD',
/*000007*/B,
I believe this is one of the algs I used. But I can't remember that puzzle very well.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2010 4:14 pm 
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5.1.18
bmenrigh wrote:
Trouble is, face twists change the orientation of the puzzle relative to what a vertex twist would do. I'm finding executing even a single (1,1) routine very difficult to do reliably. Your time of 52 minutes makes sense but the less than 20 minute times of Micheal, Schuma, and Sjoerd are amazing. I guess I'm going to practice my vertex-twisting routines as face-twist+reorient routines.
Yes, I found the face/vertex "reverse psychology" thing rather confusing at first. The important thing is to make sure that the face moves cancel out in the algos you make for matching/reducing the Pyraminx corners and edges. On a later try I managed to solve it in just over 20 minutes, and I'm not a fast solver (to say the least, hehe), so it really is possible.

Edit: I just re-remembered the "freeslice" trick from higher cubes that can also be applied when reducing other puzzles, like this one. Stripping vertex moves from the beginning and end of my algos and leaving only sequences that begin and end with a face move, my revised solution outline is:

1. Solve the corners and small center pieces like a Pyraminx or Jing Pyraminx, but only using face moves.
2. Match bitten center wedges to corners using 5-move conjugate algos (2 + 1 + 2').
3. Match whole center wedges to edges using 9-move conjugate algos (4 + 1 + 4').
4. Solve the reduced Pyraminx.


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2010 5:41 pm 
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Julian wrote:
5.1.18 Edit: I just re-remembered the "freeslice" trick from higher cubes that can also be applied when reducing other puzzles, like this one. Stripping vertex moves from the beginning and end of my algos and leaving only sequences that begin and end with a face move, my revised solution outline is:

1. Solve the corners and small center pieces like a Pyraminx or Jing Pyraminx, but only using face moves.
2. Match bitten center wedges to corners using 5-move conjugate algos (2 + 1 + 2').
3. Match whole center wedges to edges using 9-move conjugate algos (4 + 1 + 4').
4. Solve the reduced Pyraminx.
Julian, can you elaborate on what you mean by the "freeslice" trick? Is it just the stripping you described or it there something deeper to it?

Regarding your whole-wedge to edge match (4,1), mine is ((1,1),2) where the 2 part is a face and vertex twist. If I left out the vertex twist the algo would no longer be pure. I suppose I could tolerate a dirty alg if I were doing reduction. Perhaps this is what you mean?

Edit: I got to thinking about what you might mean by "freeslice". Do you mean that on puzzles where you are reducing to some other puzzle, you can drop the final moves of a routine that only change the reduced puzzle? That would seem more like "free face" moves to me. Like on 3.4.5 where if you are reducing to a Rubik's cube, you don't need to undo 3x3x3 setup moves at the end of a vertex-based routine?

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Last edited by Brandon Enright on Mon May 03, 2010 2:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

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