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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 10:58 am 
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did 1.1.37 with reduction to kilominx with a simple (3,1) commutator and then kilominx solve. about 380 moves, and 12.something minutes. very easy.
As for the other new cicleminxes: I can probably do a couple of them with the algorithms I saved for the first couple of circleminxes, but most of them will probably take me ove 45 minutes, and about 9000 moves, so I'm not gonna do that right away.

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43,252,003,274,489,856,000. Or the full number in Hungarian is:
Negyvenháromtrillió-kétszázötvenkétbilliárd-hárombillió-kétszázhetvennégymiliárd-négyszáznyolcvankilencmillió-nyolcszázötvenhatezer :wink: )


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 1:40 pm 
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Elwyn wrote:
know i could have saved a fair few moves if i had Brandon's... wait did you mean 4 cycle or 2-2 swap because i didn't think you could have 4 cycles on puzzles like this just double swaps 3 cycles and 5 cycles.


There is no way you'll save moves or time using any algorithm I come up with. I'm the very definition of inefficient :oops:

Using Julian's notation for dodecahedra back on page 24, my base routine was (U face, u slice):

(l u' l') U' (l u l') U

But I generally added a f' setup move or even DR f'

I didn't check very carefully but there may have been 3 pieces moving on the U face rather than just 2. That is, what I thought was a 4 cycle could be a 5 cycle. I was using it like it was a 3-cycle though much like you can generally think of the big-cubes center three-cycle as a swap.

Before I started solving I spent about 20 minutes looking for a simple 3-cycle that I could use to reduce to a Kilominx but I didn't find anything. Can (or Sjoerd!) you share the steps you went through to find a routine to reduce/pair with the corners? I sure as heck didn't find any (3,1) madness that did anything useful :x

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 6:31 pm 
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1.1.37

I saw Brandon's post and thought, "Either that's a typo or Gelatinbrain has suddenly added a lot of new puzzles!" Thanks again, Gelatinbrain. My method for 1.1.37:

1) Build the 5 corners with white stickers and solve those 5 Kilominx corners.

2) Rather like pairing edges of a 4x4x4 cube, use an equator "working area" and equator slice moves to build another 4 kilominx corners, storing completed corners on the face opposite the solved face. (I build the 5 corners that are closest to the white face, both for easier recognition and to keep the unsolved Kilominx corners closer together to reduce setup moves, in step 4.)

3) Solve the remaining corners like a Kilominx.

4) Cycle the remaining center triangles using pure (3,1) commutators. (The 3 moves are a mixture of slice and face moves.)

I took 314 moves on my second attempt. I don't think it will be long before someone (most likely Michael) gets a sub-250 solve for this one.


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 9:21 pm 
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Julian wrote:
4) Cycle the remaining center triangles using pure (3,1) commutators. (The 3 moves are a mixture of slice and face moves.)

I took 314 moves on my second attempt. I don't think it will be long before someone (most likely Michael) gets a sub-250 solve for this one.
I too took 314 on my seccond attempt except i used a (4,1) not (3,1) 3 cycle but i just found the (3,1) so i might do it again. I know i can atleast get sub 300 but i'll leave it to Michael to get sub 250 hahaha.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 1:41 am 
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I finally finished 1.1.6 :D
Attachment:
1.1.6_solved.png
1.1.6_solved.png [ 29.94 KiB | Viewed 4709 times ]
I ran into just two corners twisted and I spent a miserable 1.5 hours fixing it. The trick ended up being putting a twist into another corner so that I could untwist all three at a time in the same 3-cycle. I'm quite impressed at how good you guys are at these things. I figured out a method 1.1.20 but that monster will have to wait until this weekend.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 5:47 pm 
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bmenrigh wrote:
I finally finished 1.1.6 :D I ran into just two corners twisted and I spent a miserable 1.5 hours fixing it. The trick ended up being putting a twist into another corner so that I could untwist all three at a time in the same 3-cycle. I'm quite impressed at how good you guys are at these things. I figured out a method 1.1.20 but that monster will have to wait until this weekend.
Danny came up with a neat (12,2) commutator to twist 2 corners pure in 28 moves; double corner swap, setup a corner to the same position in a different orientation, undo double corner swap, undo setup:

[F'2,C2,F2,C'2]x3,
E,D,
[C2,F'2,C'2,F2]x3,
D',E'

Useful for the Pentultimate too, if you end up with 2 twisted corners.


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 5:59 pm 
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1.1.18 is connected to some of the newly added puzzles. 1.1.18 can be solved using reduction or cycling or a mixture. Every piece type can be cycled with (3,1) commutators, some pure, some not.

1.1.31 = 1.1.18, solving the non-circle parts of pieces, then circle pieces exactly like 1.1.26.

1.1.32 = 1.1.18, solving the circle/inner parts of the diamonds, then bitten diamond crescents pure (10,1).

1.1.33 = 1.1.18, solving the non-circle parts of pieces, then corner-circle "wedges" non-pure (8,1), then edge-circle "keystones" pure (10,1).

Some of the others look seriously tricky!

1.1.35 = Pentultimate/1.1.7, then solve the circle pieces pure (10,1).


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 10:21 pm 
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Julian wrote:
1.1.18 is connected to some of the newly added puzzles. 1.1.18 can be solved using reduction or cycling or a mixture. Every piece type can be cycled with (3,1) commutators, some pure, some not.

1.1.31 = 1.1.18, solving the non-circle parts of pieces, then circle pieces exactly like 1.1.26.

1.1.32 = 1.1.18, solving the circle/inner parts of the diamonds, then bitten diamond crescents pure (10,1).

1.1.33 = 1.1.18, solving the non-circle parts of pieces, then corner-circle "wedges" non-pure (8,1), then edge-circle "keystones" pure (10,1).

Some of the others look seriously tricky!

1.1.35 = Pentultimate/1.1.7, then solve the circle pieces pure (10,1).


Good to know that they are related. But I haven't solved 1.1.18... Actually I haven't worked on any puzzle on gelatinbrain's page that is not a platonic solid. By the way, there are at least two hidden puzzles, 1.1.35b and 1.1.39. One can choose them through the menu.


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 3:42 pm 
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The new 1.1.x puzzles have lots of interesting connections. More solution outlines without actual algos:

1.1.34 = solve everything except the inner circles like 1.1.18, then macaroni pieces (8,1) non pure, then little triangles (10,1) pure.

1.1.36 = solve corners and inner circles like 1.1.8, then little triangles non pure (7,1), then curvy/bitten trapezoids (5,1) and macaroni pieces (8,1) pure in either order.

1.1.38 = solve corners and inner circles like 1.1.37 then curvy/bitten trapezoids and macaroni pieces using exactly the same algos as 1.1.36.

Currently hidden puzzles, available from the File menu at the top left of the applet:

1.1.35b = Circle Super-Pentultimate. Solve the Super-Pentultimate then the circle pieces (10,1) pure.

1.1.39 = 1.1.3 + 1.1.6 = 8-). I'd imagine that reducing to 1.1.3 and then solving the reduced Pyraminx Crystal would be an efficient method, but I haven't played with it much yet.


Edit: I had forgotten about the little triangles of 1.1.36, so I've added those, and also shortened the curvy trapezoid algo from (6,1) to (5,1).


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2010 1:49 pm 
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With all of this talk about 1.1.18 I really want to solve it. My solution for 1.1.20 applies pretty nicely to 1.1.18 but I keep getting 20%-50% of the way through a solve and Java crashing on me. It isn't a Java code issue, the java.exe binary itself crashes. It has been happening when I click and drag the view around. 1.1.18 is the only puzzle I've run into that during a drag the whole applet will randomly hang for about a second. It is during these hangs that Java occasionally crashes. I'm guessing 1.1.18 is causing one of the JOGL DLLs to do something different and crash.

I guess I'll have to go solve 1.1.20 first. The thing is going to take me like 3000-3500 moves and 3-4 hours of time.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2010 4:11 pm 
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1.1.20 turned out to be quite a bit less tedious than I was expecting. I ran into an edge-pair position parity but that only took me about 5 minutes to figure out (standard tricks):
Attachment:
1.1.20_solved.png
1.1.20_solved.png [ 34.18 KiB | Viewed 4574 times ]

1) Pair edges. I used a 3-cycle commuted commutator of the form (1, (1, 1))
2) Solve edge-pairs like 1.1.3
3) Solve center pentagons like 1.1.4
4) Solve center diamonds exactly big-cube center 3-cycle
5) Solve center trapezoids/tip triangles independently like center triangles from 1.1.4

1.1.18 is actually less work than this so if I can figure out what is causing Java to crash it should be faster.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2010 11:26 pm 
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During the last little bit of solving for 4.2.3 the applet detected the puzzle as solved prematurely :shock:
Attachment:
4.2.3_bug_solved.png
4.2.3_bug_solved.png [ 8.71 KiB | Viewed 4546 times ]

The clock is stopped and the results already submitted. It took me a few more moves and another 20 seconds or so to solve this but I still feel like I cheated.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 7:45 am 
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I just checked the total puzzles solved reccords and it seems Brandon has solved 71 new puzzles in the last 43 days :shock: I think i've solved 10 hahaha. Not only that but of all the circle cubes that have been solved he has solved all of them. So much for your goal of getting to 40 puzzles solved hey.
And Schuma is only one puzzle away from 200 solved puzzles!!! :shock: do thesee people do nothing but solve :lol: it is amazing.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 4:55 pm 
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Elwyn wrote:
I just checked the total puzzles solved reccords and it seems Brandon has solved 71 new puzzles in the last 43 days :shock: I think i've solved 10 hahaha. Not only that but of all the circle cubes that have been solved he has solved all of them. So much for your goal of getting to 40 puzzles solved hey.

It looks like I started solving somewhere around the 27th or 28th of Jan 2010. I did the Super-Megaminx on my second or third day. It isn't fair to compare my 71 with your 10 because I had all of the easy puzzles to fly through while you've had a bunch of hard puzzles to do. The more I solve the more impressed I am with some of your very low move counts. That and I'm especially impressed with your solutions to 1.1.(16,17,21) as well as 2.2.(5,6).

As for circle cubes, well, they are all based on roughly the same principles. 3.1.15 throws the 5x5x5 centers into the mix and 3.1.19 has some interesting inner 3x3x3 pieces. Once you know the tricks solving them is kinda tedious. I've kinda been wanting to write up a Circle Cube "tricks/solutions" post describing the basics of the cubes. I haven't wanted to piss you guys off though revealing too much info and allowing people that would not solve them on their own to get an unearned big boost in solutions. Thoughts?

Elwyn wrote:
And Schuma is only one puzzle away from 200 solved puzzles!!! :shock: do thesee people do nothing but solve :lol: it is amazing.

Yeah Schuma is a machine. I wish I had nothing to do but solve. Work and school have been kicking my butt so I've been solving on the weekends to escape from regular duties.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 6:16 pm 
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bmenrigh wrote:
Elwyn wrote:
Elwyn wrote:
And Schuma is only one puzzle away from 200 solved puzzles!!! :shock: do thesee people do nothing but solve :lol: it is amazing.

Yeah Schuma is a machine. I wish I had nothing to do but solve. Work and school have been kicking my butt so I've been solving on the weekends to escape from regular duties.


Actually I am a human. I confess that I have spent a lot of time playing these puzzles. Fortunately the grad school is like a kindergarden. Check this comic strip to see why:
http://www.phdcomics.com/comics/archive ... micid=1286
Sometimes I solve them in working hours, if my advisor is not pushing me.


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 12:54 am 
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bmenrigh wrote:
I'm especially impressed with your solutions to 1.1.(16,17,21)
hmmm 1.1.17 is that the one i solved so fast and so efficiently that i don't even remember it and niether does the score board :lol: As for 1.1.21 i'm certain you could solve it as soon as you realised that it is just a different puzzle (that you have solved) missing some corners and in disguise. Infact have a closer look at 1.1.16 too and it will hopefully apear very eazy. It was 1.1.15 that i found hard.
I am still verry proud of my 2.2.5 solve though hahaha but i think i need to resolve it concidering i now know a pure (3,1) alg for the pyraminx crystal like edge pieces instead of a (4,1). Won't save manny moves but i might be able to get sub 700 which would be nice. I think that's why i haven't solved as manny puzzles as you hahaha because i get too caught up in getting lower and lower move counts.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 2:06 am 
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Elwyn wrote:
bmenrigh wrote:
I'm especially impressed with your solutions to 1.1.(16,17,21)
hmmm 1.1.17 is that the one i solved so fast and so efficiently that i don't even remember it and niether does the score board :lol:
Oops, haha, not even Michael can beat a move count of 0 :wink:! Of course, I meant 1.1.15
Elwyn wrote:
As for 1.1.21 i'm certain you could solve it as soon as you realised that it is just a different puzzle (that you have solved) missing some corners and in disguise.
Hmm, I've turned that thing for at least 15 minutes and not spotted it. I need to think about those pieces some more.
Elwyn wrote:
Infact have a closer look at 1.1.16 too and it will hopefully apear very eazy. It was 1.1.15 that i found hard.
I haven't played with 1.1.16 it much yet but I already see how to solve about half of it. Maybe I'll tackle the rest of it in a few days.
Elwyn wrote:
I am still verry proud of my 2.2.5 solve though hahaha but i think i need to resolve it concidering i now know a pure (3,1) alg for the pyraminx crystal like edge pieces instead of a (4,1). Won't save manny moves but i might be able to get sub 700 which would be nice.
I'm not very comfortable with the view I get on the deep-cut icosahedron duels of the dodecahedra. I was able to solve 2.2.1 and 2.2.2 with their nice shallow cuts but I still have trouble spotting the correspondence between the pieces in 2.2.3 and pieces in 1.1.4. Plus those super-centers are going to be annoying. I hope once I start solving them they will become as natural as their dodecahedra counterparts.
Elwyn wrote:
I think that's why i haven't solved as manny puzzles as you hahaha because i get too caught up in getting lower and lower move counts.
Yeah for sure, you'd be killing me in solves if that was your goal. I need to work on techniques for developing shorter routines for pure cycles. After about 30 minutes of playing with 1.1.39 I think I now have a solution that would work in theory. I could never actually pull it off. though. I basically have 4 non-pure cycles that work my way in to the center of the puzzle, each time solving the side effects of the previous non-pure piece movement and at the same time scrambling new, more interior pieces. The only pure cycle I have would finally fix the most interior pieces. I bet Julian already has a bunch of pure, short 3-cycles for that thing :evil:. I feel dumb when I can't even come up with a pure 3-cycle for either type of the center pieces in 1.1.8 I can move them around together so a pure cycle for either would take care of the mess. I guess I need a healthy dose of patience :?.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 3:44 am 
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bmenrigh wrote:
I feel dumb when I can't even come up with a pure 3-cycle for either type of the center pieces in 1.1.8 I can move them around together so a pure cycle for either would take care of the mess. I guess I need a healthy dose of patience :?.
1.1.8 is to me the most anoying puzzle on here just because i like doing things on order and it stumped me and put a gap between allot of solved puzzles so i have a gap but after reading your post i decided to have another look at it and i now have a (3,1) for the small center triangles non pure but i think i will use reduction for most of those and a (4,4) pure 3 cycle for the wide triangles. It's a little long and it would be better if it was for the small triangles because then i'd try and solve it like 1.1.37 then just cycle them last. hmmm perhaps i'll keep looking for something better because that sounds like it could be a good method.

Edit: found a (4,3) pure cycle for the small triangles and a (3,1) non pure for the wide triangles. Oh i forgot to mention that when i said i had a (3,1) for the centers of 1.1.37 i was yet again being fooled by a 5 cycle looking like a 3 cycle but i'd say this new one would work just fine.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 10:40 pm 
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I don't undersatnd this pariy.
Attachment:
parity.jpg
parity.jpg [ 56.73 KiB | Viewed 4485 times ]
The pices that are wrong are equivelent to the (edge) centers on a 5x5x5 and there are no identicle pieces for this piece type just mirror images that don't work in the same spot....I know i should swap some identicle pieces but i don't know what when it is normaly obvious. :?
It's 4.2.9 if that wasn't clear.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 12:16 am 
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Sorry for the poor reply, I'm on a phone right now. That pairity comes from an odd number of quarter turns. If you put a counter-clockwise quarter turn into that tip you will have a 3-cycle to finish the edges. You would do better to put the pairity into the next layer down so that the quarter turn doesn't twist the 4-color tip.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 4:50 pm 
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1.1.8

Psst... small triangles (3,1) non pure, then big triangles (3,1) pure.


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 5:20 pm 
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bmenrigh wrote:
After about 30 minutes of playing with 1.1.39 I think I now have a solution that would work in theory. I could never actually pull it off. though. I basically have 4 non-pure cycles that work my way in to the center of the puzzle, each time solving the side effects of the previous non-pure piece movement and at the same time scrambling new, more interior pieces. The only pure cycle I have would finally fix the most interior pieces.
That can be a good way to solve a puzzle! I often use the dirtiest algos possible, with only a single pure algo at the end.
bmenrigh wrote:
I bet Julian already has a bunch of pure, short 3-cycles for that thing :evil:.
I didn't look at 1.1.39 properly until tonight. Have you tried Ctrl-click with this one? It looks like it's supposed to move just the very outer slice, the same as Shift-click for the 1.1.6. I'm guessing that Gelatinbrain is aware of the bug and has deliberately kept it off the main webpage until it's fixed?

With working Ctrl-click moves, we could solve the corners and edges like a Pyraminx Crystal, then kite pieces (3,1) non pure, trapezoid (3,1) non pure, and finish with large and small triangles in either order (3,1) pure.

But without working Ctrl-click moves I would solve in a different order, cycling corners (4,1) near the end and finishing with the small triangles (5,1) pure. (The kicker is the 1.1.6 trapezoid pieces. If you want to cycle them without moving corners, I can't see faster than (3,4), where the 4 are simulating a Ctrl-click move.)


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 8:14 pm 
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http://users.skynet.be/gelatinbrain/App ... ra_fv1.htm
:scrambled: :scrambled: :scrambled: :scrambled: :scrambled: :scrambled: :scrambled: :scrambled: :scrambled: :(
1: Make 3 corners have yellow facing the same way.

2: Solve the edges on that face like you would for the first layer on a pyraminx.

3: Rotate the last corner in place.

4: Solve the edges on that layer like on the top layer of a pyraminx.

5: If the puzzle isn't solved, position the puzzle so that two unsolved face centers that need to be swapped are facing you and going up and down, and that two corners are on the left and the right of this. Do this to the corners: (L R' L' R) X3
:solved: :solved: :solved: :solved: :solved: :solved: :solved: :solved: :solved: :solved: :solved: :solved: :solved: :D

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 7:30 am 
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Julian wrote:
I didn't look at 1.1.39 properly until tonight. Have you tried Ctrl-click with this one? It looks like it's supposed to move just the very outer slice, the same as Shift-click for the 1.1.6.
Weird. 1.1.40 the circle version of this puzzle also has this weird movement.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 10:03 am 
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I also noticed the buggy move on 1.1.39. I made that move not by ctrl+click, but with the command like "A&4". But it was so weird that I decided not to use it in my solve.


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sat Mar 20, 2010 3:15 am 
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Julian wrote:
1.1.8

Psst... small triangles (3,1) non pure, then big triangles (3,1) pure.

Madness :!: I finally have a pure 3-cycle for the big triangles but it is (10,1). I'll probably give it a solve with this routine. I'm amazed at how easily (quickly) you find pure (3,1) or (4,1) cycles. For 1.1.8 I just don't see how to isolate a piece in only 3 moves.

Thanks for your help so far :D.

Edit: 5 minutes after I wrote the above I thought of a way to do it in (3,1) pure :roll:.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sat Mar 20, 2010 8:25 pm 
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bmenrigh wrote:
I'm amazed at how easily (quickly) you find pure (3,1) or (4,1) cycles. For 1.1.8 I just don't see how to isolate a piece in only 3 moves.

Edit: 5 minutes after I wrote the above I thought of a way to do it in (3,1) pure :roll:.
The "Eureka!" moments are great though, aren't they? :D

A few people have asked for tips on how to find useful algos, so here goes... Sorry for the lack of screenshots, but work is killing me at the moment!

If you label two moves L and R, try all possibilities of L' R L, (L',R), and (L,R), all distances apart, double turns or single turns if you have 72 or 90 degree turns, and regular or slice if you have a choice. For L' R L with slice or hybrid puzzles, it usually makes more sense for the L move to be the one that affects more pieces.

Look out for any piece types that have been isolated, or almost isolated. If you see a situation where you think, "Apart from this group of pieces here being messed up, this would be a good algo", try to find 1 or 2 moves that push the messed up pieces conveniently out of the way. Then reset the puzzle, and try the inverse of those moves, the almost-useful ago, then those moves. So if A helps (L',R), the next try is A' (L',R) A. Maybe that doesn't quite do the job, but another move B seems to fix everything up. Reset again, and try B' A' (L',R) A B. I did this with 1.2.9, one of the most difficult Gelatinbrain puzzles, and after some experimentation found an algo (4 moves) (L',R) (4 moves)' to isolate a triangle in 12 moves. In general, with deeper cut or deep cut puzzles, it's a case of "Try to push all the scrambled junk together on one side, and hope that just one piece gets left behind." It might sound crude, but it's a very effective strategy!

The algos built up from 3 central moves use a conjugate sequence to isolate a piece. The formula is a short sequence of moves to isolate a piece from its neighbors, a move to swap that piece with another (but with side effects, other pieces in that part of the puzzle are moved too), then undo the initial short sequence to get back to a position where you have isolated a single swapped piece with no side effects.

"Don't be cleaner/purer than you have to." Some really useful short algos can look horrible at first glance, until you look carefully and see that although lots of pieces move, only one of a particular piece type is cycled. That can be your algo to finish off that piece type near the beginning of the solve.

One algo of the type (1 setup) (L,R) (1 undo) -- F L R L' R' F' -- is incredibly versatile. Always give it a try, spacing out the turn points of F, L, and R, and trying both symmetic and assymetric arrangements.

Sometimes it's worthwhile making a commutated commutator, for example, a (3,1) commutator isolates a piece in a turning region, so you commutate it again for a ((3,1),1) or (8,1) algo overall. Or perhaps the (3,1) needs a setup move either side to isolate a piece, leading to a (10,1) algo overall.

With shallower cut edge turning puzzles, conjugate algos are often efficient, like (ABA,C) or (ABCBA,D) or (ABA,CDC) in addition to (A,B). Also, check out every possible distance apart for (LR)*2 and (LR)*3 as starting points for algos. The goal is to find the right depth of cut so that (LR)*2 cycles 3 groups of pieces, one of which you slice up further; or with deeper cut puzzles, to flip over 2 groups of pieces with (LR)*3 and then push all except one out of a turning region.

With some deep cut hybrid puzzles (e.g. 1.3.2, 2.4.1, 3.6.2, 4.5.1) you'll find that if you take a move of each type as far apart as possible and repeat a commutator 3 times, you'll nearly have a pure algo: just one setup move either side of (L',R)*3 will give you a pure (14,1) algo.

Next, don't forget that cycling isn't always the best way to solve a particular puzzle. You might be able to get a long way blockbuilding, gather groups of pieces together, in the early stages.

Also there is reduction, reducing a complex puzzle to a simpler type you already know how to solve. For example, with 4.1.2-4.1.4, you can reduce to a Pyraminx or Jing Pyraminx solution once you have solved 4 non adjacent faces. Let's say you normally finish by solving the center triangles with (L R L, r), where L and R are non adjacent faces. If you invert this and write out all the moves, that's r' L R L r L' R' L'. But wait -- those last 3 moves do nothing to spoil the reduced puzzle; they just move the bigger groups of pieces around. So with r' L R L r you have with just 5 moves instead of 8 moves done a cycle of little triangles, not caring where the Pyraminx edge groups go, to finish up with a Pyraminx solve at the end, saving loads of moves. Similarly with 3.4.x puzzles, if you have an algo mixing face moves and corner moves, you can leave out all the face moves at both ends of an algo to get a shorter algo suitable for reducing the puzzle to a cube.

Edit: Added more detail on edge turning puzzles in bluish text.


Last edited by Julian on Mon Mar 22, 2010 7:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sat Mar 20, 2010 9:46 pm 
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Julian wrote:
For example, with 4.1.2-4.1.4, you can reduce to a Pyraminx or Jing Pyraminx solution
That's how i solved 4.1.2-4.1.4 after reading something about it a while ago and it was a strange but very fun method :)
Julian wrote:
1.1.8
Psst... small triangles (3,1) non pure, then big triangles (3,1) pure.
I still havn't found a pure big triangles alg smaller than (4,4). I do have a pure small traingles (4,3) and a non pure (3,1) so i could solve it but i'd rather solve it with a shorter alg but uni just got rather hectic so i don't really have time to look for one...... actulay i should be studying maths right now hahaha

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sat Mar 20, 2010 10:13 pm 
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Elwyn wrote:
Julian wrote:
1.1.8
Psst... small triangles (3,1) non pure, then big triangles (3,1) pure.
I still havn't found a pure big triangles alg smaller than (4,4). I do have a pure small traingles (4,3) and a non pure (3,1) so i could solve it but i'd rather solve it with a shorter alg

I ended up solving it with a (3,1) pure for the wide triangles and a ((1,1),1) pure for the small triangles. In hindsight, I tried all sorts of stupid, overly complicated ways to do the wide triangles pure. When I found the (10,1) routine I realized that it was easy to isolate the wide triangle in the same way without that whole long sequence of moves.

Of course, I only place one piece with each 3-cycle so my move count was still awful compared to what you and Julian typically get.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sat Mar 20, 2010 10:24 pm 
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I have been wanting to solve the circle 1.1.4 for a long time (1.1.25) so I decided to save it for my 100th solve 8-):
Attachment:
1.1.25_solved_100th.png
1.1.25_solved_100th.png [ 33.1 KiB | Viewed 4103 times ]

1) Solve corners, 1.1.3 edges, and centers just like 1.1.4
2) Solve circle pizza wedges like the center triangles on 1.1.4 (7,1) non-pure
3) Solve center triangles pure. I used a commuted Megaminx PLL routine (15,1)

I took several 5 minute breaks in this solve so I could cut about 15-20 minutes off this solve.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 12:23 am 
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I took a stab at 3.4.5 but I ended up with a parity I don't understand:
Attachment:
3.4.5_parity_1.png
3.4.5_parity_1.png [ 15.98 KiB | Viewed 4176 times ]
It is easy to turn into a position parity instead:
Attachment:
3.4.5_parity_2.png
3.4.5_parity_2.png [ 15.93 KiB | Viewed 4176 times ]

Normally I'd solve this by parity with half-turn in the top but in this case, that will put a parity into the 3x3x3 edges instead. I've been in this situation for more than an hour and so far I haven't made any useful progress. I have tried swapping two identical pieces but I don't think that can be done without flipping their orientation. Ideas?

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 12:28 am 
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bmenrigh wrote:
I have been wanting to solve the circle 1.1.4 for a long time (1.1.25) so I decided to save it for my 100th solve 8-):
100 puzzles congradulations!!! but why not solve it using the (4,1) alg that you know for the triangles for 1.1.4 to solve the large pizza pieces non pure. It cycles two on the U face and one on the DR face. That's how i plan to do it and then a [(4,1),1] or (10,1) comutated version of it for the small triangles.
Can't help you with dino plus 3x3x3 because i havn't solved it yet sorry.
Edit: this parity is dicussed back on page 13 a little more than half way down and Doug came up with a solution eventualy i think
UMichSpeedCubist wrote:
This is what I would do. I would do the single quarter-turn and then solve all the corners leaving edge-pairty. Then make a single quarter turn of an inner-slice of 3x3 to convert the edge-parity to center-group parity. And then re-solve centers in some GRUELING way.

Or perhaps not so bad because I would just use the idea of fixing 4x4 wing-pairty (r U2 r U2 r U2 r U2 r) where the (r) are appropriate Dino turns, and the (U2) is a pure center-180 alg on Super-3x3. OKAY, that does work!

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Last edited by Elwyn on Sun Mar 21, 2010 1:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 1:23 am 
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Elwyn wrote:
100 puzzles congradulations!!!
Thanks :D I didn't think I would ever make it to 40, then 60, then 80 :lol: I'm starting to get into the "hard" puzzles so progress is going to be slower going. I need to figure out the 5.2.x series but those things just don't make any sense...
Elwyn wrote:
but why not solve it using the (4,1) alg that you know for the triangles for 1.1.4 to solve the large pizza pieces non pure. It cycles two on the U face and one on the DR face. That's how i plan to do it and then a [(4,1),1] or (10,1) comutated version of it for the small triangles.
Mostly bad habit. When I first solve 1.1.4 the setup moves needed to place even one triangle in place seemed very hard to me. When I got down to just two or three unsolved faces I was spending 5+ minutes per triangle thinking and trying setup moves. I found (Sune, U slice) to be easier to work with. Now I'm a lot more comfortable with many setup moves and I could work with the (4,1) routine easily. I really should have... If you destroy my time on 1.1.25 I might have to go back and do it with something that won't take 3000+ moves :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 2:04 am 
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Elwyn wrote:
Can't help you with dino plus 3x3x3 because i havn't solved it yet sorry.
Edit: this parity is dicussed back on page 13 a little more than half way down and Doug came up with a solution eventualy i think

Okay, I considered this (solving the edge-parity like a void cube) but rejected it as too much work (or maybe even impossible) to re-solve the centers. Doug's idea of using a Dino turn and then a super-3x3x3 180 to swap 2 center pieces at a time is a great idea and would make it almost efficient.

I hadn't read to page 13. Doug is quite a good solver it seems. I should work my way through this monster thread reading and learning.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 7:41 pm 
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1.1.39 & 1.1.40 -- Ctrl-click moves have been fixed! Thanks Gelatinbrain!

1.1.39: Solve the corners and edges like a Pyraminx Crystal, then kite pieces (3,1) non pure, trapezoid (3,1) non pure, and finish with large and small triangles in either order (3,1) pure.

1.1.40: Same as 1.1.39, then finish with the edge-circle pieces (5,1) pure, and corner-circle pieces (10,1) pure, in either order.

Edit: Fixed a goof with my suggested outline for 1.1.40.


Last edited by Julian on Mon Mar 22, 2010 6:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 1:48 am 
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Julian wrote:
1.1.39: Solve the corners and edges like a Pyraminx Crystal, then kite pieces (3,1) non pure, trapezoid (3,1) non pure, and finish with large and small triangles in either order (3,1) pure.
Thanks for your writeup on solving and the routines you've devised for these puzzles. It keeps me motivated to find the shorter ones. I finally have short enough sequences for 1.1.39 to give it a solve by hand. I hadn't tried CTRL+click before and I wasn't aware some of the puzzles took CTRL in addition to shift. With a slight modification to my (3,1) routine for the wide triangles on 1.1.8 and the now-working CTRL+click I have a very clean (but not pure) (3,1) cycle for the trapezoid pieces on 1.1.39

Next weekend 1.1.39 is going down :twisted:

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 9:14 am 
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I decided to have a look at the dino+3x3x3 and i got the parity i then solved void cube parity and had 4 swaped (whole 3x3x3) centers i did it all using "dino turn RUR'Ux5 undo dino turn"
On a different note i updated my solution for 2.2.5 back on page 30 with some new ideas that i'm suprised Julian didn't point out would be more eficient back when i first posted it. I also spent a little time looking for Doug's magic 24 move single center twist for 2.2.3-2.2.6 and came to the conclusion that it is just that.... Magic.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Mar 25, 2010 8:49 am 
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Does anybody know whether gelatinbrain is updating the rankings manually or he has a program to do it automatically? I have noticed that my solves since the day before yesterday have not been shown in the rankings. I have never seen this before. Usually it always shows up within no more than one day.


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Mar 25, 2010 9:37 am 
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I heard the score rankings get updates when GB logs in. So he just didn't log in for a couple of days.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Mar 25, 2010 5:47 pm 
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Sjoerd wrote:
I heard the score rankings get updates when GB logs in. So he just didn't log in for a couple of days.

There seems to be a server-side problem. I haven't received any scores for the last two days. It happens sometimes, but since I don't have any server-side permissions, there's no way to detect the exact cause. By cutting off the connection just before clicking "submit", you can get the certificate to mail me. For lost scores, you can PM me screen-shots or other "proofs" :wink: . I will manually update the scoreboard.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Mar 25, 2010 6:39 pm 
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gelatinbrain wrote:
Sjoerd wrote:
I heard the score rankings get updates when GB logs in. So he just didn't log in for a couple of days.

There seems to be a server-side problem. I haven't received any scores for the last two days. It happens sometimes, but since I don't have any server-side permissions, there's no way to detect the exact cause. By cutting off the connection just before clicking "submit", you can get the certificate to mail me. For lost scores, you can PM me screen-shots or other "proofs" :wink: . I will manually update the scoreboard.

This is a bummer. I solved 1.1.15 in about 1 hour, 30 minutes and about 2100 moves as well as 3.4.5 in about 1 hour 15 minutes but I don't know a rough move count. I haven't been taking screenshots of non "hard" puzzles and since I want the time and moves to be accurate, I'll just re-solve them.

Perhaps you would consider a backup system? I'm thinking something along the lines of me or somebody else running a CGI script somewhere else on the web. When a puzzle is solved, in addition to posting to your script, it posts to the backup script. In the event of catastrophic loss the records of solves can be synced up.

Actually in the more general case, I'd be happy to help with some of the support/backend code and maintenance.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Mar 25, 2010 8:15 pm 
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Hmmm this makes me kind of glad the only puzzles i've solved have been dino+3x3x3 and resolved the super-x for a better movecount. Gelatinbrain do you have any idea when this might be fixed?

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 12:43 pm 
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I am glad to see that the rankings have already got updated. All my recent solves are there. It seems the problem is solved. Thank you GB.


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 5:01 pm 
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1.1.39 8-)
Attachment:
1.1.39_solved.png
1.1.39_solved.png [ 36.41 KiB | Viewed 3847 times ]

This puzzle is awesome. I really like 1.1.3 and 1.1.6 so combining them makes for a fun solve. I'd suggest Julian's method if you can find the routines. Mine was:

1) Solve corners and edges like 1.1.3
2) Solve center big trapezoids much like 1.1.8/1.1.37 (3,1) non-pure
3) Solve center small triangles ((1,1),1) non-pure
4) Solve center diamonds/kites (3,1) non-pure (big cube centers)
5) Solve center big triangles ((1,1),1) pure

I really struggle with the setup moves for deep-cut puzzles like this or 1.1.4 so phase 3 took me 1.5 hours. Before I started I thought I'd have a chance to beat Schuma's time but I think that even with the macro penalty his time was really good.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 5:54 pm 
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I took a look at 1.1.39 and made up all the neccicary(correct spelling?) algorithms. It is recuction to pyraminx crystal, and the algorithms aren't that long. I have 2 of 8 moves, 2 of 10 moves and 2 of 22 moves. I do not have the time to put them to use right now.

And just a note partially related to this:
All the talk lately about all of these commutators, I found one this long, then someone finds a shorter one, is very nice and makes for a little bit of competition(which is good), but it's not very satisfying to read. I do not want to spoil anyones fun, but can I just show the algorithms? Anyone can then use them, and a puzzle like 1.1.39 wouldn't be that hard anymore, but I would just like to share some stuff.
Hmm now that I hear myself saying it it doesn't seem to be a good idea :?

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 6:13 pm 
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Sjoerd wrote:
I took a look at 1.1.39 and made up all the neccicary(correct spelling?) algorithms. It is recuction to pyraminx crystal, and the algorithms aren't that long. I have 2 of 8 moves, 2 of 10 moves and 2 of 22 moves. I do not have the time to put them to use right now.
It's necessary but since English isn't your native language I don't think it is necessary that you spell anything correctly :D When Julian first suggested reducing to the Pyraminx Crystal I investigated that strategy but I didn't think I would be able to do it.
Sjoerd wrote:
And just a note partially related to this:
All the talk lately about all of these commutators, I found one this long, then someone finds a shorter one, is very nice and makes for a little bit of competition(which is good), but it's not very satisfying to read. I do not want to spoil anyones fun, but can I just show the algorithms? Anyone can then use them, and a puzzle like 1.1.39 wouldn't be that hard anymore, but I would just like to share some stuff.
Hmm now that I hear myself saying it it doesn't seem to be a good idea :?
Personally I would prefer to share too routines but I don't want to upset others. There is a certain amount you can learn by figuring things out yourself and then there is all the things you can learn from others.

I'm not going for fewest moves or fastest time so if I come up with a really cool routine I want to share it too. I suppose we should share routines when we want to and we know it won't wreck other's fun. For 1.1.39 the only routine I have that is "valuable" is the trapezoid/1.1.8/1.1.37 cycle.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 7:22 pm 
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Went ahead and solved it anyway :wink:
Attachment:
1.1.39.JPG
1.1.39.JPG [ 81.37 KiB | Viewed 3828 times ]

Attachment:
1.1.39.2.JPG
1.1.39.2.JPG [ 15.56 KiB | Viewed 3828 times ]

Order:
Step 1: pair 1 and 2. (1,3) with 1 being a ctrl slice move.
Step 2: pair 1 and 2 with 3. Same (1,3) but with 1 being a shift slice move.
Step 3: pair 4 and 7. (1,4) 1 being a shift slice move.
Step 4: pair 5 and 6 with 4 and 7. ((4,1),1) or something like that. 2 separate algorithms for right-handed (5) and left-handed (6) pieces.
Step 5: solve like Pyraminx Crystal (1.1.3). Easy.

Anyone who's interested in the algorithms, PM me.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 6:57 am 
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1.1.39

Thinking about it, the best of both worlds would be reducing to a Pyraminx Crystal like Sjoerd, using Brandon's and my shorter algos. My (3,1) algo for cycling the kite pieces non pure (small triangles move too) can be shortened to 5 moves if we let the 1.1.3 pieces move to new positions. My other algos are surrounded by slice moves so they can't be shortened. However, reducing still saves quite a few moves when solving those piece types, for example:

We have a choice between setting up a cycle with
slice face slice face face face
or
face face face face face face face slice.
If we solved the 1.1.3 pieces at the beginning and want to leave them solved, the first choice is better, as it's shorter. However, if we are reducing to 1.1.3, the second option is better. 8 moves to setup the cycle, but only 1 undo move: the slice. We don't care about the 1.1.3 moves because we're going to solve the 1.1.3 at the end anyway. So when reducing, the second option is 9 moves in addition to the algo, instead of 12 moves. These savings will really add up. The trick with efficient setups will be to make the smallest number of 1.1.3 moves to either set up the pieces for cycling already, or leave them in a position where a slice or two at the end puts them into position.

Combined with solving 2 or 3 pieces at a time as often as possible, I this one can be solved in under 2,000 moves.


Edit: I originally said, "My other algos are 100% made from slice moves..." (3rd sentence), which I've since noticed is incorrect. One of them includes a face move.


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 4:46 pm 
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1.2.13

Apart from the single color circle pieces, solves like 1.2.2. The 2-color circle pieces show the location and orientation of the 1.2.2. corners. Then cycle the circle wedges (7,1) pure.

1.2.14

Start by solving the big 2-color diamonds, moving the bitten diamonds to join the 2-color circle pieces. Towards the end the bitten pieces can be cycled (3,1). Then single color bitten diamonds (1,1), pentagon centers (3,1), single color circle pieces (7,1), and finally triangles (5,1). Only the last algo is pure.


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2010 12:18 am 
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1.1.13:
Attachment:
1.1.13_solved.png
1.1.13_solved.png [ 38.62 KiB | Viewed 3663 times ]
This thing seems very daunting at first and is visually very chaotic when scrambled. It is quite simple though.

1) Solve 3-color hexagons and 2-color >< edge pieces like 1.1.3
2) Solve pentagon centers like centers on 1.1.4/Pentultimate
3) Solve 3-diamond hexagons (looks like 3D cube) and wide triangles like + and x centers of 1.1.10 respectively
4) Solve inner narrow triangles that touch pentagon centers like inner small triangles on 1.1.4

There definitely should be a lot more solvers for this puzzle than just 8.

Campbell's time is beatable but Michael's time is inhuman as always.

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