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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 9:01 am 
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I wish to place the updated list of unresolved riddles on top
I will update this list
8 unsolved puzzles:
1.2.5, 1.2.8
1.3.7
2.4.1
3.6.2, 3.6.4, 3.6.5
4.7.2
------------------------------------------------------------
8 puzzles having algorithms for the solution
1.2.6b - his brother (1.2.6) is solved, here all is similar
1.2.10 - his brother (1.2.3) is solved, here all is similar
1.4.2 (solved, but not in GB) - solution there
2.3.1 - solution there
4.3.4 - The solution exists
4.3.5 - solution there
4.5.1, 4.5.2 - solution there
------------------------------------------------------------
Only 1 man has made it (27 pieces), probably this list is interesting to someone
1.2.3, 1.2.4, 1.2.6, 1.2.7, 1.2.11
1.3.1, 1.3.2, 1.3.3, 1.3.8
2.1.1, 2.1.2, 2.1.3, 2.1.4, 2.1.5
3.3.4, 3.4.3, 3.4.4, 3.4.6, 3.4.7, 3.4.9
4.3.2, 4.3.3
6.1.1, 6.1.3, 6.2.1, 6.2.2, 6.2.3, 6.2.4
------------------------------------------------------------
The list with all riddles reminds me a big raw diamond,
ranking-list is cut brilliant where each puzzle is a separate side,
All of us together process it, each new record in the general list is a sweep of a cutter,
Some sides are already polished, and some still wait for you!

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Last edited by grigr on Thu Nov 13, 2008 10:07 pm, edited 10 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 12:14 pm 
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grigr, thanks for the record keeping updates. I don't really understand some of the English in your posts though... but that's okay, I'd never be brave enough to go post in an all Russian forum or something.

I played around with 4.7.2 just now, and I think it's missing some important things:

1. Shift-click for the middle (vertex-cut) layer in the Trajber's group. 4.2.1 could also use it but it's a lot more important here.
2. Shift-click for the middle (edge-cut) layer.

I am finding algs that are based on using such things... I would rather not have to go turn both outer layers and then change the view/grip. It hurts a lot on time and it adds a lot to turn-count.

Preliminary Anlaysis:
I found enough to be able to solve the very outer edge-wings and the face pieces which are adjecent to them. And of course I can solve corners and central-centers. The middle of an edge, has simple diamond edges that I can probably solve too. But then there are 5 tiny pieces that surround each of the two sides of such a Diamond Edge Group. I imagine the tippies being problematic as well. I really should post a picture of what I mean, but I have class to go to.

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single attempts => 4x4 - 1:21.78, 5x5 - 2:05.11, magic - 1.38, master magic - 5.03


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 2:26 pm 
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UMichSpeedCubist wrote:
I SOLVED 4.7.1!

I reduced it into an interesting puzzle, by grouping into:
12 Edge Sets: 7 pieces each
24 Tippie Sets: 4 pieces each
(the 6 Corners are just single corners)
Congratulations! "Removing the web from the OctaWeb" to expose the underlying 4.1.2 (centerless Dino Octa or "Master Skewb Diamond"). Good luck with the Master OctaWeb (4.7.2).

To Evgeny: I hope you don't mind my alternative names!


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 4:28 pm 
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1.3.2 (1.1.7 + 1.2.9) - Solution Outline

The good news is that you don't need to know 1.2.9. Knowing the Pentultimate (1.1.7) and two additional algos is enough to solve 1.3.2 efficiently -- in fewer moves than 1.2.9, despite 1.3.2 having 60 more pieces, such is the power of combined face and corner moves. The one annoying thing about 1.3.2 is that two-thirds of the time you'll be faced with a single misoriented corner.

Image
Dark uppercase labels = Pentultimate (1.1.7) faces
Light lowercase labels = HalfMinx (1.2.9) corners

1. Centers & corners. Solve as you would normally solve 1.1.7. Depending on your method, introducing some corner twists may help reduce the number of moves. If you end up with a single misoriented corner you have three main options: a) twist the corner in the direction it needs to be twisted, then cycle 2 sets of centers and 3 sets of corners; b) click Undo back to a half-solved stage, make the same twist you'd make with a), and solve at least one new piece with a commutator before continuing, to preserve the fix; c) click Scramble and hope for better luck next time. I choose c), because I get confused and frustrated trying to fix the problem, and I can redo this stage enjoyably in 15-20 minutes.

2. Small triangles. Cycle with a non-pure commutator. Isolate a small group of pieces (1 small triangle + 2 large triangles) in a Pentultimate turning-layer in 8 moves, to give a commutator of 18 moves.

3. Large triangles. Cycle with a pure commutator. Isolate a large triangle in a HalfMinx turning-layer in 14 moves, to give a commutator of 30 moves.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------------------

Hints:

2. The heart of the algo is L R L' R'. Find two setup moves such that [setups] [L R L' R'] [setups]' isolates a small triangle in the D turning-layer. The screenshot shows the overall result after a U2' rotation.

3. Choose a corner and face that are as far apart as possible, use them in a 2-gen algo of the form A B' A' B, and repeat it 3 times. With the addition of a single setup move you can isolate a large triangle in a HalfMinx turning layer in 14 moves.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------------------

Algos:

2. (BR2' dl) (L R L' R') (dl' BR2) D' . . (BR2' dl) (R L R' L') (dl' BR2) D

3. [dbr' (u D' u' D)x3 dbr] sbr . . [dbr' (D' u D u')x3 dbr] sbr'


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 8:57 pm 
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UMichSpeedCubist wrote:
4.7.1

I used 1449 turns on my solve, but I know that on a second solve I can get much better.

-Doug
I meant to start work on 1.2.4 tonight, but 4.7.1 looked/looks so interesting that I couldn't resist. I've worked out a draft solution that I'll test-run tomorrow evening. [Edit]It didn't work.


Last edited by Julian on Tue Oct 28, 2008 8:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 9:46 pm 
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UMichSpeedCubist wrote:
Danny Devitt wrote:
Interesting way of thinking of the puzzle, but I don't really see how it makes it any easier than my method. I mean, if you can manage to solve it into a skewb, wouldn't it just be faster to solve it entirely?
No. It *IS* after all a reduction method. And these tend to be intrinsically more efficient than solving into place (and apparently Julian agrees with this). Certainly it is better for turn-count, but if solving a Skewb is fast for you then this grants you the power of using Skewb algs at the end.

This is me speaking from experience, and as the current 1FM holder on that puzzle...

I'm not disagreeing that it's a reduction method. I just still don't see why that's faster/easier. Do keep in mind that I have only attempted a solve about 2 or 3 times, and haven't tried your method yet.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 10:46 pm 
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UMichSpeedCubist wrote:
grigr, thanks for the record keeping updates. I don't really understand some of the English in your posts though... but that's okay, I'd never be brave enough to go post in an all Russian forum or something.

My bad language - my enemy :cry:
I will sometimes ask the wife to help me,
Warn me please if I something tell not clearly or rough,
I not can know it :!:

Julian wrote:
To Evgeny: I hope you don't mind my alternative names!

I am very glad, that my entertainment too was pleasant to you,
At you the vision of this puzzle, I see it on another = we supplement each other!
--------------
Well that 1.3.2 it is easier 1.2.9, only it is a pity that anybody any more wishes to throw down a challenge 1.2.9

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 10:49 pm 
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Julian wrote:
UMichSpeedCubist wrote:
4.7.1
I used 1449 turns on my solve, but I know that on a second solve I can get much better.
-Doug
I meant to start work on 1.2.4 tonight, but 4.7.1 looked/looks so interesting that I couldn't resist. I've worked out a draft solution that I'll test-run tomorrow evening. It's a partial reduction method, due to those pesky edge-touching kite pieces. The easiest way for me to match up edges to kites is to move the kites into their solved position first, then cycle the edges in between them. Having done that, I find it twice as fast to solve the edge-adjacent small triangles if I don't care if the corners move.

My solution for 4.7.1 - OctaFirework
I use this notation:
L,R,F,U,B,D - corner rotation
LR,RD,FR,LD, ... - edge-twist
FRU,LDF,FUL, ... - face rotation
Image
All elements are divided into 3 groups, each group solves separately
A. Corner - the decision is trivial, algorithms are intuitive, all is simple
To begin necessarily with them if you do not wish to meet parity
B and C - it is possible to start to solve in any order, I will give here only
Pure algorithms, but you can having reduced it to receive them dirty algorithms
For acceleration of your work and reduction of number of steps.
Note: elements b2 and c2 are divided into 2 mirror groups.
B.1. - (FU'F'U+FR+U'FUF'+FR) + UL,FLD,UL + (FR+FU'F'U+FR+U'FUF') + UL,FLD',UL - (26) 3-cycle
B.2. - (FU'F'U+FR+U'FUF'+FR) + UL,FL,UFR,FL,UL + (FR+FU'F'U+FR+U'FUF') + UL,FL,UFR',FL,UL - (30) 3-cycle
B.3.1. - FU'F'U + FR,RB,UR,RD + U'BU + RD,UR,RB,FR + U'FUF' + FR,RB,UR,RD + U'B'U + RD,UR,RB,FR - (30) 3-cycle
B.3.2. - FU'F'U + FR,RB,UR,RD + R,BD,R' + RD,UR,RB,FR + U'FUF' + FR,RB,UR,RD + R,BD,R' + RD,UR,RB,FR - (30) 2-flip
C.1. - FU,L,FU,L' + RB,RD + U'F'RFU + RD,RB + L,FU,L',FU + RB,RD + U'F'R'FU + RD,RB - (26) 3-cycle
C.2. - (UR,FL)*2 + UFR,FD,D,FD,UFR' + (FL,UR)*2 + UFR,FD,D',FD,UFR' - (18) 3-cycle
C.3. - (UR,FL)*2 + UFR',UL,UFR + (FL,UR)*2 + UFR',UL,UFR - (14) 3-cycle

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Last edited by grigr on Mon Oct 27, 2008 11:12 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 10:52 pm 
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grigr wrote:
All elements are divided into 3 groups, each group solves separately
A. Corner - the decision is trivial, algorithms are intuitive, all is simple
To begin necessarily with them if you do not wish to meet parity
B and C - it is possible to start to solve in any order, I will give here only
Pure algorithms, but you can having reduced it to receive them dirty algorithms
For acceleration of your work and reduction of number of steps.
Note: elements b2 and c2 are divided into 2 mirror groups.
B.1. - (FU'F'U+FR+U'FUF'+FR) + UL,FLD,UL + (FR+FU'F'U+FR+U'FUF') + UL,FLD',UL - (26) 3-cycle
B.2. - (FU'F'U+FR+U'FUF'+FR) + UL,FL,UFR,FL,UL + (FR+FU'F'U+FR+U'FUF') + UL,FL,UFR',FL,UL - (30) 3-cycle
B.3.1. - FU'F'U + FR,RB,UR,RD + U'BU + RD,UR,RB,FR + U'FUF' + FR,RB,UR,RD + U'B'U + RD,UR,RB,FR - (30) 3-cycle
B.3.2. - FU'F'U + FR,RB,UR,RD + R,BD,R' + RD,UR,RB,FR + U'FUF' + FR,RB,UR,RD + R,BD',R' + RD,UR,RB,FR - (30) 2-flip
C.1. - FU,L,FU,L' + RB,RD + U'F'RFU + RD,RB + L,FU,L',FU + RB,RD + U'F'R'FU + RD,RB - (26) 3-cycle
C.2. - (UR,FL)*2 + UFR,FD,D,FD,UFR' + (FL,UR)*2 + UFR,FD,D',FD,UFR' - (18) 3-cycle
C.3. - (UR,FL)*2 + UFR',UL,UFR + (FL,UR)*2 + UFR',UL,UFR - (14) 3-cycle

AWESOME. It looks like you used reduction too. I'm curious what turn-count you got.

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single attempts => 4x4 - 1:21.78, 5x5 - 2:05.11, magic - 1.38, master magic - 5.03


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 11:19 pm 
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UMichSpeedCubist wrote:
AWESOME. It looks like you used reduction too. I'm curious what turn-count you got.

SORRY :?
I have not solved any octahedron!
I can easily find all these algorithms,
But now I have not enough time to solve of them...
I hope that my work will help somebody to make it.
---------------------------
What is "reduction"? It edge-twist?
For me rotation of any plane is equivalent, me does not confuse that

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 1:00 am 
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grigr wrote:
What is "reduction"? It edge-twist?
For me rotation of any plane is equivalent, me does not confuse that

Reduction is where you group certain pieces together in such a way that you can solve it as a different, simpler puzzle by restricting what moves you use. For example, if you are solving a 4x4, the reduction method is to turn it into a 3x3. You solve the centers and pair the edges and then only use the outer layers. By doing this, the 2 pieces of each edge cannot come apart again, nor can the centers. This makes it solvable as a 3x3. Of course, it is possible to get parity and produce an illegal 3x3 state which then requires an algorithm to fix.



As for 3.2.6, I spent an hour and a half working on it tonight only to turn up with a few very close positions, usually with 4 pieces to solve, although I did get a couple with only 2 that needed switching (yes, it obvious really needed a 3-cycle or double 2-cycle). I did at one time get to a point which I later realized would have possibly led to an easier solution. This has been a particularly annoying puzzle since it seems so simple yet I can't get it. I did try Doug's method but as I clearly don't get how to use it, it didn't help much and I didn't manage to get any farther with it than with mine, although the idea of restricting those turns did help somewhat. I suppose I will just have to try harder.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 9:54 am 
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Danny Devitt wrote:
As for 3.2.6, I spent an hour and a half working on it tonight only to turn up with a few very close positions, usually with 4 pieces to solve, although I did get a couple with only 2 that needed switching (yes, it obvious really needed a 3-cycle or double 2-cycle). I did at one time get to a point which I later realized would have possibly led to an easier solution. This has been a particularly annoying puzzle since it seems so simple yet I can't get it. I did try Doug's method but as I clearly don't get how to use it, it didn't help much and I didn't manage to get any farther with it than with mine, although the idea of restricting those turns did help somewhat. I suppose I will just have to try harder.

a 20-turn alg:

Hold so that the view is like looking down on a cube rather than looking up at one (like seeing UFR). I will call turning UFL corner X, turning UBR corner Y, and turning the UBL corner (at the top of view) Z. Let P = Y X' Y' X.
3-cycle using: (P Z P Z')^2

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single attempts => 4x4 - 1:21.78, 5x5 - 2:05.11, magic - 1.38, master magic - 5.03


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 8:28 pm 
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UMichSpeedCubist wrote:
4.7.1

I was very careful about any possibility of parity and so I started with a dirty solve of just the corners and edges. There might not have been a parity issue, but I did this just to be extra safe. (This is like optional step 0, but I am not 100% sure it is optional.
You may be interested to know that you were very wise to take this precaution. I tried to solve 4.7.1 my own way tonight and everything that could go wrong did go wrong after assembling the 12 big edges and then trying to solve the edges and corners of the 4.1.2: odd corner perm, odd edge perm, single twisted corner, single flipped edge, or a combination. Yuck. I'm not sure what I was thinking -- I guess I just blithely assumed these things would be easy enough to fix if they occurred, but they certainly weren't. I'll add a step 0 to my method and do some more thinking before I try again later this week.


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 10:25 pm 
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Danny Thanks

Julian wrote:
UMichSpeedCubist wrote:
4.7.1
I was very careful about any possibility of parity and so I started with a dirty solve of just the corners and edges. There might not have been a parity issue, but I did this just to be extra safe. (This is like optional step 0, but I am not 100% sure it is optional.
You may be interested to know that you were very wise to take this precaution. I tried to solve 4.7.1 my own way tonight and everything that could go wrong did go wrong after assembling the 12 big edges and then trying to solve the edges and corners of the 4.1.2: odd corner perm, odd edge perm, single twisted corner, single flipped edge, or a combination. Yuck. I'm not sure what I was thinking -- I guess I just blithely assumed these things would be easy enough to fix if they occurred, but they certainly weren't. I'll add a step 0 to my method and do some more thinking before I try again later this week.

I think that to get rid of parities it is necessary to place in places corners it it is necessary also it enough.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 10:27 pm 
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UMichSpeedCubist wrote:
a 20-turn alg:

Hold so that the view is like looking down on a cube rather than looking up at one (like seeing UFR). I will call turning UFL corner X, turning UBR corner Y, and turning the UBL corner (at the top of view) Z. Let P = Y X' Y' X.
3-cycle using: (P Z P Z')^2

Thanks for the alg. I now easily solved it. I'm sort of disappointed that I couldn't come up with that on my own. However, I solved 3.3.8 as well (bringing me to a total of 85) so it's not all bad :)

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 8:00 am 
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grigr wrote:
Julian wrote:
UMichSpeedCubist wrote:
4.7.1
I was very careful about any possibility of parity and so I started with a dirty solve of just the corners and edges. There might not have been a parity issue, but I did this just to be extra safe. (This is like optional step 0, but I am not 100% sure it is optional.
You may be interested to know that you were very wise to take this precaution. I tried to solve 4.7.1 my own way tonight and everything that could go wrong did go wrong after assembling the 12 big edges and then trying to solve the edges and corners of the 4.1.2: odd corner perm, odd edge perm, single twisted corner, single flipped edge, or a combination. Yuck. I'm not sure what I was thinking -- I guess I just blithely assumed these things would be easy enough to fix if they occurred, but they certainly weren't. I'll add a step 0 to my method and do some more thinking before I try again later this week.

I think that to get rid of parities it is necessary to place in places corners it it is necessary also it enough.
That's what I thought at first too, but I discovered last night that it is possible to have all the corners solved correctly relative to each other, but still have a problem with the edges. If you make 3 edge turns in a row, moving clockwise or anticlockwise around a square of 4 corners, the corners are still permuted correctly relative to each other: if you then twist the 4 corners you moved 180 degrees, and twist the other 2 corners 90 degrees, then as far as the corners are concerned you've just rotated the whole puzzle 90 degrees. Also, because you've made an even number of quarter corner turns, the edges are in an even perm too. But, because you've made an odd number of edge turns, you've flipped an odd number of edges.

I realize now that I could have used this fix last night when I had one flipped edge: 3 edge turns, repair broken big edges, and re-solve the pseudo-4.1.2. But I'll be better with a step 0 at the beginning, then assemble the big edges with short commutators, solve the pseudo-4.1.2, and finish by cycling the remaining small tippies into the big 4.1.2 tippies.


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 8:37 pm 
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4.7.1

I managed to solve it tonight in 1258 moves. As Doug sensed instinctively and I learned the hard way, it's a good idea to solve the corners and edges first, before you build any blocks of pieces that you might have to break up later on with awkward edge moves to fix a single flipped edge. My method is outlined below:

Image

1. Solve the corners and edges (C & E in the diagram). Odd permutations and orientations can occur with either type of piece (I think).
2. Cycle the type 1 pieces into the big edges with an 8-move commutator. Actually, it's the edges that are moved around to join up with different type 1 pieces, but the result is the same.
3. Cycle the type 2 pieces into the big edges with an 8-move algo (which would be a commutator, but I repeat the face turn at the end instead of reversing it, to get the corners back in the right place with 3 big edges cycled, rather than the other way around). The pieces are in distinct lefthanded and righthanded sets.
4. Solve the big edges that have been assembled by stages 2 & 3 (surrounded by a black line), with intuition and little 4-move cycles. (The corners are already solved because the earlier algos preserved them.)
5. Solve the type 3 pieces by moving the 4.1.2 tippies that hold them (surrounded by a black line). I use a commutator (6 face turns) + * + (6 face turns)' + *', where * is 1 or 2 moves from a choice of 3 corners, 2 edges, and a face, so lots of flexibility.
6. Cycle the type 4 pieces with a (non-pure) 12-move commutator. The pieces are in distinct lefthanded and righthanded sets.
7. Cycle the type 5 pieces with a (pure) 12-move commutator (the same algo as stage 6 except for different 6th and 12th turns).


Last edited by Julian on Thu Oct 30, 2008 12:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 9:48 pm 
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Julian wrote:
4.7.1
I managed to solve it tonight in 1258 moves. As Doug sensed instinctively and I learned the hard way, it's a good idea to solve the corners and edges first, before you build any blocks of pieces that you might have to break up later on with awkward edge moves to fix a single flipped edge.

You are right, I have understood the error last night, but you have already corrected me.
Also, very good solution

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2008 12:56 am 
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Julian wrote:
4.7.1
I managed to solve it tonight in 1258 moves. As Doug sensed instinctively and I learned the hard way, it's a good idea to solve the corners and edges first, before you build any blocks of pieces that you might have to break up later on with awkward edge moves to fix a single flipped edge.
grigr wrote:
Also, very good solution

Probably a better solution. I'd need to try my solution again to see if I can beat that turn-count. Julian obviously found a lot of algs that I never even tried to look for. It's just that after a Step 0, I mess up both the CO and EP in doing my reduction steps. After edges are grouped, I then solve everything but pieces on tippies.

Then there is the extra turn-count I get by preserving the solved pieces while forming tippie groups.

But because the turn-counts of these two methods are comparable, it's possible I can still beat it.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2008 7:48 am 
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I have considered 4.7.2 - OctaSalute it from a same category,
There is no big difficulty but there are many parts,
In the begin corners need to be solved what to avoid parity.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2008 5:44 pm 
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grigr wrote:
I will update this list
17 unsolved puzzles:
1.2.4, 1.2.5, 1.2.8, 1.2.10
1.3.7
2.4.1
3.4.3, 3.4.4, 3.4.6, 3.4.7, 3.4.9
3.6.2, 3.6.4, 3.6.5
4.3.2, 4.3.4
4.7.2
Solved

2.4.1 (2.1.5 + 2.2.6). The cousin of 1.3.2. Corners and centers like 2.2.6 (Icosa-Pentultimate), then the other pieces using the same algos as 1.3.2.

4.3.2. I'll post an outline with algos in the next day or two.

Updates & Comments

1.2.4, 1.2.5, 1.2.8 -- I have solutions and will solve them next week. 1.2.4 and 1.2.5 follow fairly easily from 1.2.3, and 1.2.8 follows fairly easily from 1.2.7.

1.2.10 -- I'm convinced it's supposed to have inner slices only: 1.3.3 = 1.1.8 + 1.2.10 has only inner slice moves, and so does the Windows standalone version of 1.2.10. Unfortunately the 1.2.10 applet is just 1.2.3 with the option of inner slice moves, so not very interesting to solve.

4.3.4 -- Can be solved like 4.3.2 apart from the 24 two-sticker small edges. Those extra pieces move like the edges of 4.3.3 but will be much harder to cycle pure.


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2008 10:19 pm 
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Julian wrote:
Solved

2.4.1 (2.1.5 + 2.2.6). The cousin of 1.3.2. Corners and centers like 2.2.6 (Icosa-Pentultimate), then the other pieces using the same algos as 1.3.2.

4.3.2. I'll post an outline with algos in the next day or two.

Updates & Comments

1.2.4, 1.2.5, 1.2.8 -- I have solutions and will solve them next week. 1.2.4 and 1.2.5 follow fairly easily from 1.2.3, and 1.2.8 follows fairly easily from 1.2.7.

1.2.10 -- I'm convinced it's supposed to have inner slices only: 1.3.3 = 1.1.8 + 1.2.10 has only inner slice moves, and so does the Windows standalone version of 1.2.10. Unfortunately the 1.2.10 applet is just 1.2.3 with the option of inner slice moves, so not very interesting to solve.

4.3.4 -- Can be solved like 4.3.2 apart from the 24 two-sticker small edges. Those extra pieces move like the edges of 4.3.3 but will be much harder to cycle pure.

Well that's impressive. I haven't done much lately. I did manage to finish off all the 3.3.x by solving 3.3.4 (now I'm up to 145 total btw). And I figured out a method to solve 1.2.6 - it's not that hard I now think.

> 2.4.1 (2.1.5 + 2.2.6)
It is labeled as 2.1.3+2.2.5. So is that not right?

If you are attempting of solved 4.3.2, then why not 4.3.1?

1.2.x series scare me still.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 6:08 am 
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Good plans Julian! :wink: :solved:
Julian wrote:
4.3.4 -- Can be solved like 4.3.2 apart from the 24 two-sticker small edges. Those extra pieces move like the edges of 4.3.3 but will be much harder to cycle pure.

I can help a little with 4.3.4 - GiantOcta
4.3.4 = 4.3.2+4.3.3 (and = 3.3.6)
Short and pure 3-cycle for two-sticker small edges
((FR, LD, FR, RU) *2 (FR, LU, FR, RD) *2) *2 - (32)


Attachments:
GiantOcta 3-cycle.PNG
GiantOcta 3-cycle.PNG [ 12.63 KiB | Viewed 4226 times ]

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 9:58 am 
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Hey guys, just dropping in again...

Just wanted to mention that I never did 3.3.4 and 3.3.6 due to lack of time.
Also, the "new" triangular pieces on 3.3.6 are the little chop pieces. This is why in my nomenclature 3.3.6 = Cube ECD (Ie, 3.3.5/3.3.7 combination).

Right now I'm working on the next order of 3.3.3, although that's going slowly. I have all the algs just need to actually do the solution, which is estimated at a few thousand turns. Btw, the exactly puzzle I'm talking about has edge cuts and depth 120 and 90 (in UMC program).

Ok, g2g to class :)

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 5:08 pm 
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UMichSpeedCubist wrote:
> 2.4.1 (2.1.5 + 2.2.6)
It is labeled as 2.1.3+2.2.5. So is that not right?
I think GB added extra puzzles a while ago and forgot to relabel, so 2.1.3 + 2.2.5 is no longer correct. The applet filenames suggest that 2.1.1 and 2.1.2 were added later, with the numbering of the others shuffled upwards; the same with 2.2.5 in section 2.2.

2.4.1 is definitely a combination of 2.1.5 (deep cut face-turner) and 2.2.6 (deep cut vertex-turner, the Icosa-Pentultimate).
UMichSpeedCubist wrote:
If you are attempting of solved 4.3.2, then why not 4.3.1?
I tried and solved 4.3.1 tonight. As you'll know, it has tippy orbital/group and odd perm challenges (4.3.2 doesn't). I looked for 2 particular groups of 6 tippies (the ones lying in vertical lines in the default view), then I picked a color orientation that was a definite even perm, and solved the corners accordingly. Then I cycled centers in 8 moves, tippies non-pure in 14, and edges pure in 16, for a total of 528 moves.
UMichSpeedCubist wrote:
1.2.x series scare me still.
They scared me at first too, but I got off to a good start when I noticed that my algo to pure-cycle the small edges of 2.1.1/2.1.2/2.1.3 also pure-cycles the small tippies of 1.2.3. So you already know the trickiest part of 1.2.3. With 1.2.x I cycle all pieces, usually with commutated conjugate algos. Pick victim piece. Separate victim from neighbors, either by moving victim away from neighbors, or leaving victim still and moving neighbors away. Replace victim with imposter. Undo previous moves to make conjugate. Commutate. For example, with the small 1.2.3 tippies, if you "separate the victim" in 4 moves and replace it with an imposter on the 5th move, you'll end up with an algo of 20 moves. With 1.2.7 and 1.2.8 the neighbors of interest often lie in an equator slice rather than a turning-layer. The concept is almost absurdly simple and the dirty algos are usually easy to find. The main challenge is finding the almost-pure and pure algo for each puzzle, but some carry over from one puzzle to another within the same family (1.2.3-1.2.5, 1.2.7-1.2.9).


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 5:24 pm 
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grigr wrote:
Julian wrote:
4.3.4 -- Can be solved like 4.3.2 apart from the 24 two-sticker small edges. Those extra pieces move like the edges of 4.3.3 but will be much harder to cycle pure.
I can help a little with 4.3.4 - GiantOcta
4.3.4 = 4.3.2+4.3.3 (and = 3.3.6)
[Amazing 32-move algo not quoted] That's ingenious! I closed my eyes as fast as I could because I want to try to solve the Little Chop and 4.3.3 all by myself (sometime). It's good to know that a (16 moves)x2 pure edge cycle is possible for 4.3.4. I really thought it would take more moves than that.

Once I've finished the next batch of long/big solves I'll switch over to cubes for a while, starting with 3.3.1 (Helicopter Cube) as you recommended.


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 8:29 pm 
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grigr wrote:
I can help a little with 4.3.4 - GiantOcta
4.3.4 = 4.3.2+4.3.3 (and = 3.3.6)
I've just found an algo of 58 moves to solve the small 4.3.4 edges pure, so I should now be able to solve 3.3.7 (Little Chop), 4.3.3 and 4.3.4. :) But I'll see if I can bring that 58 down closer to 32 before I try them.

Also, I've found a couple of much better algos for 4.3.2 that should allow me to solve it in around 800 moves on my second attempt. I'll try tomorrow night.


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 3:13 am 
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UMichSpeedCubist wrote:
1.2.x series scare me still.

Try to solve 1.2.9-HalfMinx after that you will cease to be scare 1.2.x :oops:

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 3:16 am 
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GB rank list It has ceased to be updated automatically (a week)
Julian you inform please what puzzles have solved
That I would update Unsolved-List

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 3:53 am 
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grigr wrote:
GB rank list It has ceased to be updated automatically (a week)
Julian you inform please what puzzles have solved
That I would update Unsolved-List

This appears to be either the case, OR that my 3.3.4 solve never got properly entered. You are very observant for noticing this. You seem very sure. Why?

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 5:21 pm 
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grigr wrote:
I can help a little with 4.3.4 - GiantOcta
4.3.4 = 4.3.2+4.3.3 (and = 3.3.6)
Short and pure 3-cycle for two-sticker small edges
((FR, LD, FR, RU) *2 (FR, LU, FR, RD) *2) *2 - (32)
I just found a different pure 3-cycle for the 4.3.4 edges in 32 moves. I use (UF, RD) *2 in two of my 4.3.2 algos so I was looking for a few setup moves to bring the cycled blocks down to the bottom layer. After the first 4 moves I noticed an edge had been pulled loose, so I continued in a different direction and a few minutes later had this algo:

(UL, DL, BL, DL, DR, DL, BL, DL) *2
(BL, DL, DR, DL, BL, DL, UL, DL) *2

Rotated to show all 3 pieces in the same view:
Image

I'll try using both algos when I get to 4.3.4 (and 4.3.3 and 3.3.7).


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 5:41 pm 
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grigr wrote:
GB rank list It has ceased to be updated automatically (a week)
Julian you inform please what puzzles have solved
That I would update Unsolved-List
Yes, I think GB might be on vacation. Usually the rankings update with new solves the same evening within the hour, or the following morning, but my Saturday, Sunday and Monday solves still aren't there. I've solved 2.4.1 and 4.3.2 recently. 1.2.10 can be solved exactly like 1.2.3, so it can be moved to the "puzzles having algorithms" section. When GB gets back I'll ask him if he can change 1.2.10 to have inner slices only, which I think will make a really tricky and interesting puzzle.


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 10:51 pm 
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Julian wrote:
I just found a different pure 3-cycle for the 4.3.4 edges in 32 moves.
(UL, DL, BL, DL, DR, DL, BL, DL) *2 (BL, DL, DR, DL, BL, DL, UL, DL) *2

I am admired!
I searched for similar algorithms, but have not found...
But I think it is possible to find less than 30 rotations
Julian wrote:
When GB gets back I'll ask him if he can change 1.2.10 to have inner slices only, which I think will make a really tricky and interesting puzzle.

I wish to add to this request 4.3.5, and to leave only inside layer rotation
UMichSpeedCubist wrote:
You seem very sure. Why?

I check every day presence of new records what at once to update Unsolved-List
I have noticed that last record was 30/10/08 for 4.7.1

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2008 3:40 pm 
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grigr wrote:
GB rank list It has ceased to be updated automatically (a week)
They're updating again now, but with a gap of a few days. The ranking list updated today with Nov 5th solves by Moritz Karl, and Nov 6th solves by Arch Wolf, cody jones, and me. But still no sign of Doug's recent 3.3.4, or my 2.4.1 (Saturday, Nov 1) or 4.3.1 (Monday, Nov 3). I guess we'll know in the next few days whether solves submitted during the "blackout" are recoverable.


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2008 5:12 pm 
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4.3.2 (& 4.3.4) - Solution Outline (algos beneath the dotted lines)

[Edit]I solved 4.3.2 in 768 moves using this method: corners & centers & edges in 124, fat tippies in 414, and thin tippies in 230. Second edit to fix typos in one of the algos.[/Edit]

Image

1. Corners. Mostly intuitive; might need to twist a pair of corners with a short commutator at the end.
2. Centers. Cycle in 8 moves (3 + 1 + 3 + 1 commutator).
3. Edges. Cycle in 4 moves, or flip a pair in 8 moves (3 + 1 + 3 + 1 comm).
4. Fat tippies (each shares a border with a center). Cycle non-pure in 14 moves (6 + 1 + 6 + 1 comm).
5. Thin tippies* (each shares a border with a corner). Cycle in 18 moves (8 + 1 + 8 + 1 comm).

* These are shaped like houses in 4.3.4. If solving 4.3.4, there's an extra stage at the end to solve the small edges. Two different algos to cycle them in 32 moves appear in earlier posts on this page.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Algos:

Corners. Twist F 90 degrees clockwise and R 90 degrees anticlockwise: (FL DL FD) FR (FD DL FL) FR; twist F and R 180 degrees: (FL BL BD FD) FR (FD BD BL FL) FR
Edges. Cycle with (UR FL)*2; flip a pair with (FD DL FD UR)*2
Centers. (FL FD FL FU)*2
Fat tippies. [BR (FU DR)*2 BR] DL . . [BR (DR FU)*2 BR] DL
Thin tippies. [BD BR (FU DR)*2 BR BD] DL . . [BD BR (DR FU)*2 BR BD] DL


Last edited by Julian on Sun Mar 01, 2009 1:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2008 8:23 pm 
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> I guess we'll know in the next few days whether solves submitted during the "blackout" are recoverable.
I suspect that the records are automated e-mails to the guy, so I don't think they are actually lost.

So did you actually solve 4.3.2, 4.3.4, or both?

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2008 8:37 pm 
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UMichSpeedCubist wrote:
> I guess we'll know in the next few days whether solves submitted during the "blackout" are recoverable.
I suspect that the records are automated e-mails to the guy, so I don't think they are actually lost.
gelatinbrain wrote:
The scores are semi-automatically updated. That means the update program runs every one hour while my computer is online. But sometimes the records take a good while to arrive me or never arrives by some unknown reason. If record does not register, please don't ask me here to do it manually, except in case of bug. I'm too busy to do that.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Fri Nov 07, 2008 1:22 pm 
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UMichSpeedCubist wrote:
> I guess we'll know in the next few days whether solves submitted during the "blackout" are recoverable.
I suspect that the records are automated e-mails to the guy, so I don't think they are actually lost.
Yes, I hope they are unprocessed/stuck rather than lost. Messaging systems, including email, almost universally work "first in, first out", thus solves on the board for 05/11/08 & 06/11/08, but still none 31/10/08 to 04/11/08 inclusive, suggests to me that records for those 5 days (assuming they aren't lost) will need a bit of manual intervention from GB sometime.
UMichSpeedCubist wrote:
So did you actually solve 4.3.2, 4.3.4, or both?
I actually solved 4.3.2. My second attempt of 768 moves is on the rankings page: corners & centers & edges in 124, fat tippies in 414, and thin tippies in 230. I included the info on 4.3.4 because the puzzles are so similar and I thought it would be interesting and helpful, but I haven't attempted 4.3.4 yet. I'll make sure to be clearer about this in future posts.


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2008 7:14 pm 
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grigr wrote:
13 unsolved puzzles:
1.2.4, 1.2.5, 1.2.8
1.3.7
3.4.3, 3.4.4, 3.4.6, 3.4.7, 3.4.9
3.6.2, 3.6.4, 3.6.5
4.7.2
I put 1.2.4 and 3.4.3 on the board this weekend, so there are now 11 unsolved puzzles remaining. 3.4.3 isn't very difficult, and I'm surprised it hadn't been been solved already.


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2008 7:17 pm 
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3.4.3 - Solution Outline

Image

1. Solve corners like a 2x2x2. Make a single corner turn if necessary to fix the corner orientation.
2. Cycle the edges into their solved positions. I use a 12-move commutator (5 + 1 + 5 + 1, where the 5 are made using an adjacent face and corner) which is corner-friendly but moves lots of other pieces around. The screenshot shows the end of this stage.
3. Solve the centers. I use a 12-move commutator that cycles 3 triangles from different faces, pure.
4. Solve the rest of the puzzle like a Master Skewb, with one difference: a few outer centers (square tippies) may need to swap orbitals. As long as you have an algo to cycle tippies that doesn't affect the centers, you can use it with some face setup moves to fix the wrongly placed tippies.

Note: If you decide instead to pair up edges wherever they are, as part of reducing the puzzle to a Master Skewb as fast as possible, make sure you have an algo to deal with flipped edges later in the solve!


Last edited by Julian on Tue Nov 11, 2008 1:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2008 7:39 pm 
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As I've said previously, I have a solution for 1.3.7. I will try to get to it sometimes this week.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2008 7:42 pm 
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1.2.4 - Solution Outline

This one takes ages to solve, but as a reward the setups for stages 3-5 are interesting and challenging (in my opinion).

Image

1. Centers - easy.

2. Corners - like 1.2.3 (see earlier outline for details). If there is one twisted corner left, twist it and re-solve the 3 corners that moved. The 3 moved centers can be restored without affecting the corners in 12 moves.

3. Cycle the type 3 pieces in 16 moves (move all neighbors away from a piece in 3 moves, replace the piece with one of a different color in 1 move, bring back the neighbors in 3, and make a commutator).

4. Cycle the edges in 8 moves (simple 3 + 1 + 3 + 1 commutator).

5. Cycle the type 5 pieces in 12 moves (5 + 1 + 5 + 1 commutator).


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2008 10:40 pm 
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Julian wrote:
I put 1.2.4 and 3.4.3 on the board this weekend, so there are now 11 unsolved puzzles remaining. 3.4.3 isn't very difficult, and I'm surprised it hadn't been been solved already.

Thanks, good Job!
I updated Unsolved-List,
But I have returned back 2.4.1 и 3.3.4 :?
Probably it should be solved again

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 3:16 am 
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I just started playing around with 3.4.3, and noticed a big flaw... On the vertex-cuts, it should definitely allow for shift-click. This messes up my method idea. And also makes it more time consuming to solve the Master-Skewb I reduce to.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 6:12 pm 
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3.4.4 - Solution Outline

Image

The center triangles form two distinct groups, which I have labeled L and R above (for left-handed and right-handed). I choose to solve the L-pieces first. All three algos are commutators.

1. Make some face moves to place at least 8 L-pieces correctly.
2. Solve the remaining L-pieces with an 8-move dirty algo (moves some R-pieces and edges).
3. Solve the R-pieces with a 12-move cleaner algo (moves some edges).
4. Solve the edges with a 14-move pure algo.


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 1:12 pm 
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UMichSpeedCubist wrote:
I just started playing around with 3.4.3, and noticed a big flaw... On the vertex-cuts, it should definitely allow for shift-click. This messes up my method idea. And also makes it more time consuming to solve the Master-Skewb I reduce to.
We could collate a short wishlist for GB of things we would most like to see in 2009 if and when time allows. (Given the current economic climate, pro bono projects/hobbies will understandably be low priority for many people, perhaps including our benefactor GB, but it doesn't hurt to ask.) Ideally the puzzles should be congenial to as many different solving styles as possible. Although I'm not a slicer by nature except where virtually "enforced" (parts of 1.2.7 and 1.2.8 would be very hard work without using slice moves), it seems to me that shift-click middle slice moves would be good for the following puzzles:

1.1.5, 1.1.6
1.2.7, 1.2.8
2.2.3, 2.2.4, 2.2.5
3.2.2, 3.2.6
3.4.3, 3.4.6 (both for vertex turns only)
Some of 3.3.x?
4.3.4?


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 1:53 pm 
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Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Julian wrote:
Although I'm not a slicer by nature except where virtually "enforced" (parts of 1.2.7 and 1.2.8 would be very hard work without using slice moves), it seems to me that shift-click middle slice moves would be good for the following puzzles:

1.1.5, 1.1.6
1.2.7, 1.2.8
2.2.3, 2.2.4, 2.2.5
3.2.2, 3.2.6
3.4.3, 3.4.6 (both for vertex turns only)
Some of 3.3.x?
4.3.4?

1.1.5, 1.1.6 are already shift-click
I am suprised that 1.2.7, 1.2.8 are not.
2.2.3, 2.2.4, 2.2.5 already are.
3.2.2 already is.
I never cared that 3.2.6 was not.
A lot of the 3.4.x need it.
A lot of hte 3.3.x could have it too.
4.3.4 needs it.

This is not a very comprehensive listing. I think I can come up with more, but I'd need to go though every puzzle.

5.3.1 and 5.3.2 still need (direct) vertex-turns.
4.1.2 and similar puzzles, do need it.

EDIT: you could take it to extremes and have 3.2.4 (Dino Cube) Shift-Clickable too.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 4:23 pm 
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Yea, the only reason I've never done 4.1.2 on the applets is because no shift-click. I did 4.1.5 just to emphasize that I could've done 4.1.2 tho :)

I'm working on getting a few puzzle guides up on my website right now, and most are for puzzles not on GB's site.

My wish would be a better selection of hybrid cubes on GB's site. Right now the choices are quite random. There are seven of what I call "Uniform" cube hybrids, (Uniform means they have all congruent stickers). Right now only three are on GB (3.4.1, 3.4.2, 3.5.1)

One other is totally trivial and another is 2x2x2 + Lattice Cube (so, "sort of" trivial), but the other two are:
Dino + Bevel Cube (Cube VB1EA2 on my site)
3.3.3 + Lattice Cube (VB2EB2, Have not solved it, looks crazy, also you have to adjust the outer lattice cube slice depth a bit).

I'd also really like to see the two puzzles "after" 3.4.1 and 3.4.2. These are 4x4x4 + Lattice and 4x4x4 + Master Skewb, and they're also both uniform (there's a whole sequence of puzzles after each of 3.4.1 and 3.4.2).

EDIT: Actually I just looked at 3.3.3 + Lattice again, and I think maybe it's not as hard as it "sounds", but I'm working on different stuff right now.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 4:53 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2008 4:52 am
Location: Brighton, UK
UMichSpeedCubist wrote:
1.1.5, 1.1.6 are already shift-click
I am suprised that 1.2.7, 1.2.8 are not.
2.2.3, 2.2.4, 2.2.5 already are.
3.2.2 already is.
So they are! When I tried Noah's 1.1.5 tippy algo out of curiosity a while ago, shift did nothing, and I had to laboriously simulate the slice moves, so I assumed that GB puzzles lack middle slice moves. Also, I just re-tried 1.1.13 and 1.3.5 out of curiosity, and the regular face moves now work perfectly (they were buggy for me the last few times I tried them). I guess my PC's Java machine must have healed itself at some point. 1.2.7 and 1.2.8 still don't shift-click for me though. Thanks for the info.

On a less klutzy note, I finished off the last of the unsolved 3.4.x puzzles last night. I won't post outlines for 3.4.6, 3.4.7 or 3.4.9 because I don't want to risk spoiling them for others. I think that figuring out the overall strategy and solving order is most of what they're about, and they include ideas and algos from earlier numbers of the set. Now onto 3.6.2. Every type of deep cut together: 2x2x2 + Skewb + Little Chop.


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 10:54 pm 
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It will be very good, if GB will add some new riddles, I described them earlier.
But it will be even better if it makes it after new year, and will allow to us to finish current Unsolved-List

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