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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 4:02 am 
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Campbell wrote:
For the pentultimate, I think it is quicker to go for corners first. The first 5 can be done intuitively around one face and so can 4 of the ones in the next layer. If centers were done first, you would be forced to use algorithms to get those 9 out of 20 corners and that would take a while and use a lot of moves.

After the other 11 corners are solved with the double corner swap that has been mentioned before. I do not use a different algorithm for flipping the corners. Then I solve the 11 (or less) remaining centers with a 20 move alg that swaps two pairs of centers. It's long, but it only needs to be done 2-3 times.

That makes sence. I solved it Centers-First when I did it though, and will try your approach the next time I attempt it. But that won't be for several months I'm guessing. Applying the same logic - one should solve a Skewb Corners-First as well, which is not something I always do either.

The real trick is for me to find an alg for 2-2-swap of centers for the last step in your approach.

In other news, fusion is about to surpass Campbell for 1T points. That is pretty impressive seeing as he's solved so many less puzzles. He's at 96 and needs 12 to tie Noah. But that will change quickly. I was at 50 two months ago. I haven't solved any more in the past few days. The main thing is for me to solve 2.2.10d to finish off 2.2.x and be the first. But I don't find the time and energy lately :(. I sitll need to redo 2.2.3, and then there's the massive attack of 2.1.1.

So what progress has Campbell been making towards 2.2.7?

_________________
averages => 2x2 - 10.02, 3x3 - 22.16, 4x4 - 1:40.63, 5x5 - 2:22.60
single attempts => 4x4 - 1:21.78, 5x5 - 2:05.11, magic - 1.38, master magic - 5.03


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 4:38 pm 
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I broke 100 on GelatinBrain! :D

I was also able to get my Pentultimate time down to 10 minutes. I still need to find some more to solve to get farther.

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Void Cube
| avg of 12: 32.10
| PB : 22.92 np PLL skip
| PB2 : 26.75 np no skips


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 5:02 pm 
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fusion wrote:
I broke 100 on GelatinBrain! :D

I was also able to get my Pentultimate time down to 10 minutes. I still need to find some more to solve to get farther.

I noticed that you broke 100. There are a lot of puzzles for you left that other people got and you haven't. Try 1.1.4, 1.1.5, 1.1.6, Super-Pentultimate, 1.1.8, 1.1.13, 1.2.2, 1.3.4, 1.4.2, finish off all the 2.2.x, you haven't even done the 6-color Alexander's Star, you missed 2.2.15, 2.2.18, 3.2.3, 4x4 Maze Cube, 5x5 Maze Cube, 4x4 Arrow Cube, 5x5 Arrow Cube, and the Spheres.

As an update, I've been working on a solver program for the 6.1.x Spheres. Part of it involves a subroutine to solve 8-segment UFOs. It's easy to modify the code to handle a regular 6-segment but for some reason that added state-space makes solving the 8-segment guys impractical to get optimal solutions under. But while I was at it I found a nifty UFO alg:
D2/ D2/ D'/ D2/ D'/ D'/ D2/ D'/ D'/ D'/ D
It swaps two pieces on the D-layer, sort of at DBR and DFR and is optimal... eh just thought I'd share.

_________________
averages => 2x2 - 10.02, 3x3 - 22.16, 4x4 - 1:40.63, 5x5 - 2:22.60
single attempts => 4x4 - 1:21.78, 5x5 - 2:05.11, magic - 1.38, master magic - 5.03


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 5:25 pm 
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Damn, I'm still back at 63! I really just need to take like a full day to solve because I know I can solve all or most of 5.x.x and a ton of 2.2.x as well as a few other random ones.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 6:06 am 
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I'd like to see some new puzzles. Maybe some tetrahedra or face turning dodecahedra or 8x8 and 9x9, etc.

I could probably do 2.2.7 because a few weeks ago I figured out an alg to rotate tippies. I just haven't wanted to spend the time to solve it. heh


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 7:54 am 
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With some help I solved 5.2.1, thanks to fusion.

And due to his inspiration I created an alg to 3-cycle centre-corners on 5.1.6, so I finally managed to solve it.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 7:38 pm 
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Campbell wrote:
I'd like to see some new puzzles. Maybe some tetrahedra or face turning dodecahedra or 8x8 and 9x9, etc.

I could probably do 2.2.7 because a few weeks ago I figured out an alg to rotate tippies. I just haven't wanted to spend the time to solve it. heh

Not much more you can create in the 1.1.x area, and I don't really think we need bigger NxNxN cubes, although a 2x2 Arrow Cube for completeness would be nice. I think the tetra have been exhausted, except maybe a fairly trivial 4 corner, 4-center Edge-Turning guy (which do exist physically). I've been the same way with 2.1.1 - I can solve it but it's a major time commitment (even with the optimizations I've been coming up with).

We do need some new puzzle ideas though. Most of the ones left unsolved, are really complicated combination-turning octa. I think we need to have some improvements to the applet's viewing. We could have higher order things like Teraminx too if some sort of ctrl-click ability was added. I think the view for the Octa is very limited. The 6.1 Spheres are also missing some turning possibilities (it's kinda of like it forces us to do things like UD' before an R2 instead of allowing the direct B2). I also think that the Soccerball-shaped puzzles (like 1.1.13) need a lot more views.

And how about buttons similar to the white arrows already in the applet view, that allow 2-D rotations in the viewing-plane.... think curved arrows, circular arrows.

joey wrote:
With some help I solved 5.2.1, thanks to fusion.

And due to his inspiration I created an alg to 3-cycle centre-corners on 5.1.6, so I finally managed to solve it.

5.1.6 was a bit tricky with how the centers moved. fusion's become quite the expert at the low-5.1 stuff.

_________________
averages => 2x2 - 10.02, 3x3 - 22.16, 4x4 - 1:40.63, 5x5 - 2:22.60
single attempts => 4x4 - 1:21.78, 5x5 - 2:05.11, magic - 1.38, master magic - 5.03


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun Aug 03, 2008 4:37 am 
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It's been raining here in England for the last 2 days, so I'm back on the puzzling front. :scrambled:

I've managed to brake into some of the tetrahedra. :mrgreen:
Solved about 6 of them yesterday, planning to do more now.

Percy

*edit*
Hit the 50 puzzle mark. Go me!


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 4:11 pm 
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Help! So close on Little Chop. Anyone know where to go from here?

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 4:51 pm 
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I will have a picture for you to follow. I'll edit this post when I'm done.

EDIT: Hope this helps. -
Attachment:
Half Chop.JPG
Half Chop.JPG [ 112.93 KiB | Viewed 4248 times ]


Half Chop Guide

_________________
Started cubing Sep. 2006
hi-games.net | Cubemania | youtube/mrCubist

Void Cube
| avg of 12: 32.10
| PB : 22.92 np PLL skip
| PB2 : 26.75 np no skips


Last edited by fusion on Wed Aug 13, 2008 5:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 5:05 pm 
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merlintocs wrote:
Help! So close on Little Chop. Anyone know where to go from here?

Since there are only 3 people who have solved it so far... it's a long shot to ask for help.
fusion is the expert of course.
It's one of my weakest puzzles, but I managed to solve it through lots of persistence and a high turn-count.

3-cycle: ((UR FL UR BR)^2 (UR BL UR FR)^2)^2
perform the BL using the other view-side as to avoid re-grips
setting it up to those 3 locations (Fu->Bu->Rd) is very rough

2-2-swap: (UF UL UF UL) (UR UL UB UL UR) (UL UF UL UF)
(Fl Rb)(Fu Rd), it effects only F and R faces *if used near the end*.
but I think it does 4 more 2-swaps somewhere, so be careful if U and D faces are not yet solved.
Notice it is of the conjugative form, P*Q*P', in several ways and the central UB is the actual swapping move. This first 3-cycle alg is much more useful than this one.


-Doug

_________________
averages => 2x2 - 10.02, 3x3 - 22.16, 4x4 - 1:40.63, 5x5 - 2:22.60
single attempts => 4x4 - 1:21.78, 5x5 - 2:05.11, magic - 1.38, master magic - 5.03


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 7:02 pm 
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I have a little chop guide too! sort of... more like a description + algorithm list.
http://www.geocities.com/sxsk17/umcproject/CubeED2.html

but what I really wanted to mention is that the little chop is one of the few puzzles that I've had to write down my setup moves for. and the setup moves are NOT easy.

oh, and I'm going back to college tomorrow... so I'll probably be quite busy and not solving many puzzles for a while. I shall miss this :(
Hopefully someday my Ultimate Magic Cube Project can be continued.

_________________
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My website, IT DOESN'T WORK ANYMORE but it used to be the only site with "official" guides for the Helicopter Cube, SuperX, Master Skewb, and many more! :D


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 8:56 pm 
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AndrewG wrote:
I have a little chop guide too! sort of... more like a description + algorithm list.
http://www.geocities.com/sxsk17/umcproject/CubeED2.html

but what I really wanted to mention is that the little chop is one of the few puzzles that I've had to write down my setup moves for. and the setup moves are NOT easy.

That first alg on your site, the one for 3-cycle has a typo in it. Compare it to the one I typed out in the previous response. Also the second alg can be reduced to be a little shorter (there is an almost trivial cancellation).

Ya, I had to write down setup moves on this guy too.

_________________
averages => 2x2 - 10.02, 3x3 - 22.16, 4x4 - 1:40.63, 5x5 - 2:22.60
single attempts => 4x4 - 1:21.78, 5x5 - 2:05.11, magic - 1.38, master magic - 5.03


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 9:28 pm 
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Got it!!! Thanks to you guys for your help. I had about a four hour delay because I had to put my laptop to sleep, bring it home from work, eat dinner, put the kids to bed, etc... I'm still excited, though!

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 5:52 am 
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ahh.. thanks for pointing that out. I'll fix it... eventually.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 10:54 am 
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This is really frustrating. I've been stuck on this one for a couple of hours. I have the 2-2 center swap, but I'm just not seeing how to get it to work here. Ugh! Anyone know a 3- or 4-cycle for centers?

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 1:31 pm 
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Left it alone for a few hours and worked a little more. Now I have this:

Image

Yuck.


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 3:55 pm 
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merlintocs wrote:
Left it alone for a few hours and worked a little more.

First of all, it is proper etiquette to provide the puzzle number. In this case it can be either 2.2.2 (Icosaminx) or 2.2.10 (10-color, includes deeper turns). However, you can cycle centers on them in the same way.

Think of cycling centers on a vertex-turning icosa as the same thing as cycling corners on a face-turning dodeca. So.... how would you cycle corners on Megaminx??? Certainly you can't 2-cycle, so you will have to bring in a 3rd pieces from the opposite hemisphere, either the other pink or other dark-blue.

The way I cycle Megaminx corners, is to use commutators, but (assuming you can solve Megaminx proficently) you can do it however you want.


-Doug

_________________
averages => 2x2 - 10.02, 3x3 - 22.16, 4x4 - 1:40.63, 5x5 - 2:22.60
single attempts => 4x4 - 1:21.78, 5x5 - 2:05.11, magic - 1.38, master magic - 5.03


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 4:02 pm 
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UMichSpeedCubist wrote:
First of all, it is proper etiquette to provide the puzzle number.


You're absolutely right. Sorry about that. It's 2.2.2.

UMichSpeedCubist wrote:
In this case it can be either 2.2.2 (Icosaminx) or 2.2.10 (10-color, includes deeper turns). However, you can cycle centers on them in the same way.

Think of cycling centers on a vertex-turning icosa as the same thing as cycling corners on a face-turning dodeca. So.... how would you cycle corners on Megaminx??? Certainly you can't 2-cycle, so you will have to bring in a 3rd pieces from the opposite hemisphere, either the other pink or other dark-blue.

The way I cycle Megaminx corners, is to use commutators, but (assuming you can solve Megaminx proficently) you can do it however you want.


-Doug


I see what you're saying. I'll give it a go. Thanks for the advice.


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 4:37 pm 
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...and after thinking about what you said, it took me about 2 minutes to finish up. Thanks again, Doug.


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 10:18 am 
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Hello All. My name is Evgeny, I from Russia.
I solved some time back, which you here solve some puzzles.
1.1.1, 1.1.3, 1.1.7, 1.1.12, 1.2.9. 3.1.1, 3.1.2, 3.1.3, 3.1.4, 3.2.1, 3.2.2, 3.2.4, 3.2.5, 3.2.7, 3.3.1. 4.1.1, 4.1.2, 4.2.1, 4.2.10. 5.1.2, 5.1.3, 5.1.4, 5.1.9, 5.2.1, 5.2.2, 5.2.3, 5.3.1, 5.3.2. (28 Pieces)
I use UltimateMagicCube, to my regret Gelatin Brain's Applet on my computer very slowly works (likely there are problems with Java or OpenGL).
Recently I have found algorithm and have solved 1.2.9, still anybody here did not solve it.
I named it - HalfMinx :D (or MegaMinx Skewb, BigChop :?: )
There was one step
Attachment:
HalfMinx - last step.JPG
HalfMinx - last step.JPG [ 51.03 KiB | Viewed 4237 times ]

all done
Attachment:
HalfMinx - Finish !.JPG
HalfMinx - Finish !.JPG [ 59.42 KiB | Viewed 4239 times ]

The author «Gelatin Brain's Applet» can add decisions made in UltimateMagicCube if it to give a file with the kept decision? :?:
Keyword for algorithm construction «Ultimate Skewb».
Only the error is possible - it is possible to receive the single turned corner in the end. For this purpose it is necessary to order from the beginning them, then the centres, in the end small triangles.
As I have noticed, that it is equivalent 2.1.5, and it is possible to construct algorithm of the decision and for it, but I do not have time and forces on it.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 11:30 am 
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Hey! It's nice to see another person doing such puzzles.

I also started with the Ultimate Magic Cube program. I think gelatinbrain won't be able to accept solves from that program because of some differences between the programs. A few are:
1) UMC allows multiple slices to be selected. This makes a difference on 4.2.6/Octa VA4, etc.
2) UMC allows allows middle slices to be selected. For some methods this makes a huge difference, like on 4.1.2/Octa FA3
3) UMC has different views. For some this is an advantage (unless you are skilled with gelatinbrain). I especially do not like the gelatinbrain views for the octahedra.

There are other minor differences, like colors on dodeca/icosahedra. Gelatinbrain has mostly 10-color icosahedra and UMC has only 20-color.

I also don't think gelatinbrain would like to input score record manually.
However I have often wished there was some way to combine score records, as I also started with UMC.
Great job on 1.2.9!

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My website, IT DOESN'T WORK ANYMORE but it used to be the only site with "official" guides for the Helicopter Cube, SuperX, Master Skewb, and many more! :D


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 4:02 pm 
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I'm becoming the king of almost solving these puzzles... 1.3.5

I am making some headway, though. I've solved 22 puzzles now and still going. Trying to solve at least one per day. That's going to become really difficult really quick, though.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 9:38 pm 
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merlintocs wrote:
I'm becoming the king of almost solving these puzzles... 1.3.5

I am making some headway, though. I've solved 22 puzzles now and still going. Trying to solve at least one per day. That's going to become really difficult really quick, though.

I hardly remember solving that one. I believe I did it intuitively (no algs at all). But as a rule-of-thumb, when you are dealing with a puzzle with different types of 'stickered-pieces' to start with the ones with most stickers. So to solve the 3-stickered corners first and then the 2-stickered edges (which you have left). I would do the 1-stickered pieces last.... this is because orientation doesn't matter for them.

The 1-stickered edges can be done fairly intuitively at that point. And then for the 1-stickered corners you could do various 10-turn commutators.

I solved it back on July 1, and wasn't too serious about this one, so I forget exactly what approach I took. I'm pretty sure it was a block-bulding approach thought, but locally following the 'piece-priority' I prescribed. I remember having a lot more fun with 1.3.6 and it felt easier.

There is a version of 1.3.5 that is cut differently but looks the same on the outside... 1.1.13 that is incredibly challenging and I have yet to solve it. But after studing it a few times, I'm sticking with the same 'piece-priority'.

_________________
averages => 2x2 - 10.02, 3x3 - 22.16, 4x4 - 1:40.63, 5x5 - 2:22.60
single attempts => 4x4 - 1:21.78, 5x5 - 2:05.11, magic - 1.38, master magic - 5.03


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 1:03 pm 
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That's some good insight, Doug. Thanks. I feel like a little fish trying to play with the sharks here. I've never been great shakes at coming up with my own solutions, and I thought the gelatinbrain applet would help me improve my skills. I'm doing OK, but some of the puzzles you guys have solved, though...wow.

Anyway, I went back and solved the two-color edges on 1.3.5 and would up with a three-color center rotated. A little patience and a few twists later, however, and that puzzle is solved. I also solved the first edge turning pyraminx yesterday, which, as it turns out, was very easy.

Thanks again for all the advice. OK, next puzzle...


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 10:39 am 
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Yes! Just solved 1.1.2, the Megaminx/Pyraminx Crystal hybrid. Solved first like a Megaminx, then used edge cycles and edge flip moves to complete the outside edges. I have 27 puzzles solved now. I'm not breaking any speed records on these puzzles, but they're definitely fun to work out.


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 3:22 pm 
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Is this a result of the "Super X quarter turn parity" I've read about here on 3.4.5? If so, are we talking about a quarter face turn? Wouldn't that pretty much mean I have to start over? Thanks.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 5:05 pm 
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Yep, that's parity. Turn the orange face (any face really but the two bad pieces share that face so it messes up the least pieces) 1/4 of a turn and keep going (or start over if you're going for time/FM rankings).

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 6:32 pm 
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Danny Devitt wrote:
Yep, that's parity. Turn the orange face (any face really but the two bad pieces share that face so it messes up the least pieces) 1/4 of a turn and keep going (or start over if you're going for time/FM rankings).

Or alternatively, perform any sort of PLL on Orange face which swaps only 2 corner-groups and 2 edges...?

Okay, I don't really understand this parity at all... you do a quarter turn on a face then try and fix everything using only commutators? How is it possible to fix the parity within the Edge-Group? I don't get it.

It seems I've solved 3.4.5 before, but I either never encountered this problem or forgot how to deal with it.

After the single quarter turn, I can solve all the corners, no problem... but then have two swapped edges! What would you do if you only had that case come up? Dino-turns don't change any permutation parity. It's unsolvable in the 3x3 group. I'm so confused!

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averages => 2x2 - 10.02, 3x3 - 22.16, 4x4 - 1:40.63, 5x5 - 2:22.60
single attempts => 4x4 - 1:21.78, 5x5 - 2:05.11, magic - 1.38, master magic - 5.03


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 7:02 pm 
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merlintocs wrote:
I feel like a little fish trying to play with the sharks here. I've never been great shakes at coming up with my own solutions, and I thought the gelatinbrain applet would help me improve my skills. I'm doing OK, but some of the puzzles you guys have solved, though...wow.

You do know that the people on there that have racked up a lot of points have done so through the course of over a year... or whenever GB started doing scoreboarding. But some of us had a few of the difficult ones solved before that point and mearly had to re-solve as we were working on others. So it's not as much of a 'WOW' factor if you consider that the skills for the harder puzzles are actually built up from lower level puzzles (i.e. being able to solve Megaminx and Pyraminx Crystal allows you to solve 1.1.2).

merlintocs wrote:
I also solved the first edge turning pyraminx yesterday, which, as it turns out, was very easy.

I found the 5.2.x series difficult. The first one, I solved using luck and random turns. So it gets harder.

What are your goals? To solve a lot of different puzzles? Or to solve many at a decient time? Or to solve them in a reasonable amount of turns?

I can't judge much from Time since people take random breaks, but I've noticed some fairly poor turn-counts from you. Are you making appropriate use of the UNDO button? (I use it a lot.) I think that solving Megaminx in under 400 turns would be a reasonable goal for you. As would solving 5.1.1 in under 30 turns, under 30 seconds. By forcing yourself to keep moving on before mastering the puzzles at your level, you risk hitting dead-ends of frustration later on. The reason I say this, is because high-turn count may be an indication of not understanding all the concepts you were supposed to for it.

Within a section times may grow exponentially. For example: A person who solves 7x7 in 20 minutes, is a person who solved 3x3 in 30 seconds. For a person who can only solve 3x3 in 5 minutes, it would probably take over 3 hours if at all. And then in more extreme cases, solving the highest order version would be impossible, ...until they master the lower order ones.

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averages => 2x2 - 10.02, 3x3 - 22.16, 4x4 - 1:40.63, 5x5 - 2:22.60
single attempts => 4x4 - 1:21.78, 5x5 - 2:05.11, magic - 1.38, master magic - 5.03


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 7:39 pm 
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My mistake, I had thought that was the super-x for some reason. 3.4.5 actually really pisses me off. I've tried solving it on numerous occasions but I always run into some sort of parity that I can't solve. I would assume it has to do with the centers. So does any one have an alg to switch 2 centers and 2 corner parts?

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 8:19 pm 
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Danny Devitt wrote:
My mistake, I had thought that was the super-x for some reason. 3.4.5 actually really pisses me off. I've tried solving it on numerous occasions but I always run into some sort of parity that I can't solve. I would assume it has to do with the centers. So does any one have an alg to switch 2 centers and 2 corner parts?

I've considered things like flipping the color-scheme in the Dino-group... which doens't seem to help.

Okay, approaching it mathematically: we just have to characterize the two types of turns. A 3x3-turn is decomposed into one 4-cycle on edges, one 4-cycle on center-pieces, and three 4-cycles on corner-pieces. A Dino-turn is really one 3-cycle on edges, two 3-cycles on center-pieces, and two 3-cycles on corner-pieces. Thus a Dino-turn changes no permutation-parity whatsoever, while a 3x3-turn flips permutation-pairty for all three types of pieces.

Logic dictates that any alg which flips parity for corner-pieces will also flip parity for edge-pieces, which is highly contradictory. So the answer lies in *redefining the color-scheme*!!! If we redefine where solved is, then it should be possible to solve.

This is what I would do. I would do the single quarter-turn and then solve all the corners leaving edge-pairty. Then make a single quarter turn of an inner-slice of 3x3 to convert the edge-parity to center-group parity. And then re-solve centers in some GRUELING way.

Or perhaps not so bad because I would just use the idea of fixing 4x4 wing-pairty (r U2 r U2 r U2 r U2 r) where the (r) are appropriate Dino turns, and the (U2) is a pure center-180 alg on Super-3x3. OKAY, that does work!


EDIT: Yes, I could have responded with just the last few sentences, but I wanted to illistrate how an experienced puzzler might arrive at and draw such conclusions.

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averages => 2x2 - 10.02, 3x3 - 22.16, 4x4 - 1:40.63, 5x5 - 2:22.60
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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:42 am 
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UMichSpeedCubist wrote:
Yes, I could have responded with just the last few sentences, but I wanted to illistrate how an experienced puzzler might arrive at and draw such conclusions.

Why don't you just rub our faces in it while your at it? :lol: :)

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 10:53 am 
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UMichSpeedCubist wrote:
After the single quarter turn, I can solve all the corners, no problem... but then have two swapped edges! What would you do if you only had that case come up? Dino-turns don't change any permutation parity. It's unsolvable in the 3x3 group. I'm so confused!


This is why I was confused and why I thought doing a quarter face turn would essentially mean starting over. I'll give this one another shot later.

UMichSpeedCubist wrote:
You do know that the people on there that have racked up a lot of points have done so through the course of over a year... or whenever GB started doing scoreboarding. But some of us had a few of the difficult ones solved before that point and mearly had to re-solve as we were working on others. So it's not as much of a 'WOW' factor if you consider that the skills for the harder puzzles are actually built up from lower level puzzles (i.e. being able to solve Megaminx and Pyraminx Crystal allows you to solve 1.1.2).


Oh, I know that several of you have been working on these puzzles for quite a while, but I know that some of them must take quite an advanced level of skill to solve, so color me impressed. :D

UMichSpeedCubist wrote:
merlintocs wrote:
I also solved the first edge turning pyraminx yesterday, which, as it turns out, was very easy.

I found the 5.2.x series difficult. The first one, I solved using luck and random turns. So it gets harder.

What are your goals? To solve a lot of different puzzles? Or to solve many at a decient time? Or to solve them in a reasonable amount of turns?

I can't judge much from Time since people take random breaks, but I've noticed some fairly poor turn-counts from you. Are you making appropriate use of the UNDO button? (I use it a lot.) I think that solving Megaminx in under 400 turns would be a reasonable goal for you. As would solving 5.1.1 in under 30 turns, under 30 seconds. By forcing yourself to keep moving on before mastering the puzzles at your level, you risk hitting dead-ends of frustration later on. The reason I say this, is because high-turn count may be an indication of not understanding all the concepts you were supposed to for it.

Within a section times may grow exponentially. For example: A person who solves 7x7 in 20 minutes, is a person who solved 3x3 in 30 seconds. For a person who can only solve 3x3 in 5 minutes, it would probably take over 3 hours if at all. And then in more extreme cases, solving the highest order version would be impossible, ...until they master the lower order ones.


My original goal was to solve a lot of puzzles, and in doing so, to learn more about how to derive solutions, algorithms, etc. As I said before, I usually need help when faced with a puzzle for the first time, and I don't like it. I'd like to develop my skills to the point where I have a serious chance to solve any puzzle. I'm also starting to see the attraction of shaving time and moves off of a solve, too, though this will be tough for me. I've never been a speedsolver - it takes me 10-15 minutes to solve a physical 5x5x5, and 30-40 for a 7x7x7.

I appreciate all your comments and help, and your patience with me, the gelatinbrain "noob".


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 8:14 pm 
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I finally got around to solving 2.2.10d. I was 1:16:56 and 461 turns, but I encountered an edge-pair permutation-parity near the end, and lost two centers on the opposite side fixing it. After reduction (at 257 turns), this puzzle was very similar to the Super-Megaminx (but with some indistinguishable edges). The indistinguishable edges is both a blessing at the start and a curse at the end if you run into parity. The center orientations where a bit confusing I found.

Interesting that it took me only 204 turns after conversion... like if you compare that within the 1.1.1b scoreboard it implies that I have lots of room to improve, but that is wierd because the Super-Megaminx method I used just now was a plain "cross extension chain" without much opimization.

I now have 58 points in 1FM and my goal was to get to 60, but I kept getting bumped by fusion and Ethan... I have probably hit it before. I could probably grab another point using 2.2.3 I guess. There are just too many really good puzzle solvers on GB site.

I have solved all of the 2.2.x series and am the FIRST to do so! What's next? Super-Pentultimate? Well neither Noah or fusion has hit that yet. Btw, impressive that merlintocs is on the Penultimate list already... my method needs to be changed for it because 3hrs is a little rediculous (I solved it 2 times not counting program assist). But making my goal to solve it under 1hr seems wierd since reading off and executing 1000 clicks off my program took 1:24. Perhaps the problem is as simple as turning off Animiation and getting used to it. A better goal is to get under 500 turns instead.

I always work on minimizing turn-count before working on time - I learn more that way.

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single attempts => 4x4 - 1:21.78, 5x5 - 2:05.11, magic - 1.38, master magic - 5.03


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 8:16 pm 
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The lack of certificates button is starting to scare me. I recommend taking/saving screen caps at Game Over like I just did.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 8:39 pm 
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merlintocs wrote:
My original goal was to solve a lot of puzzles, and in doing so, to learn more about how to derive solutions, algorithms, etc. As I said before, I usually need help when faced with a puzzle for the first time, and I don't like it. I'd like to develop my skills to the point where I have a serious chance to solve any puzzle. I'm also starting to see the attraction of shaving time and moves off of a solve, too, though this will be tough for me. I've never been a speedsolver - it takes me 10-15 minutes to solve a physical 5x5x5, and 30-40 for a 7x7x7.

I appreciate all your comments and help, and your patience with me, the gelatinbrain "noob".

Well interestingly enough, I'm at a point where I do NOT have a serious chance of solving any puzzle I have not solved yet on GB (among the 179-129). Btw, I figured out that GB's count of 189 is off by 10 because there are 10 "hidden" puzzles (by using certain applet parameter values not available on any links provided), including 2 hidden Spheres with alternative sticker-patterns. There are a few hidden Soccerball-shaped puzzles too (think 1.1.13/1.3.5/1.3.6 stuff). But I would imagine these to not be fully-tested or fail testing. I bet solving those wouldn't get scoreboarded.

merlintocs is in the top 10, so I wouldn't use the term noob. Perhaps, intermediate (not beginner since you got Little Chop and Pentultimate). But you gotta work on physical 5x5, and since you are luckier than me and have a 7x7 - that too. A year ago, I got to try a 7x7 and hit 19 min on first try ever. (Theoretically, I should be sub-10 given a few more solves of practice.) If you want to get better at speedsolving, maybe I can help. How well does your Five turn? What method do you use?

Ah, forgot about 2.1.1! That will be the next puzzle I solve, and if my computer system cooperates, then I will have something to share by... probably a week from now.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 6:52 pm 
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I re-solved 2.2.3 just now (for a time of 1:44:11 and 823 turns).
I was surprised by how many times I got stumped and paused more than a few minutes.
I thought it would be a lot easier the second time around after working on other similar puzzles.

I didn't have a clear plan of attack. I did start with solving all the centers, but I later felt this might have been a mistake. I used the *dual* of the Megaminx method of 'cross expansion chain' (starting with 1 center and 3 edges) and should have done the more plain way of starting on 1 corner with 5 edges attached to provide better room for block growth.

I tried some tricks to optimize turns by keyholing again, but was pretty awful at it and it took up more time that it was worth FM. And gave up quickly to get to: all edges and 2 corners solved (while preserving centers).

I got to the point where I encountered a rather troublesome CO-parity. This is usually fairly annoying on similar puzzles, but in this case it was incredibly difficult and I spent a good 20 minutes on it - trying different ideas of 5-cycling various types of pieces (or blocks of 2 different types) (over multiple steps) to fix it. Some ideas preserved the twisted corner in question, but some did not - making things more confusing. The most troublesome pieces to fix being the centers of course. I eventually did about 200 turns of UNDO after realizing the following was possible, when you consider a single cycling of the larger blocks:
Image

So I challenge you... find a length-24 alg that does that parity fix!

_________________
averages => 2x2 - 10.02, 3x3 - 22.16, 4x4 - 1:40.63, 5x5 - 2:22.60
single attempts => 4x4 - 1:21.78, 5x5 - 2:05.11, magic - 1.38, master magic - 5.03


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 10:24 pm 
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UMichSpeedCubist wrote:
Well interestingly enough, I'm at a point where I do NOT have a serious chance of solving any puzzle I have not solved yet on GB (among the 179-129).


It's interesting to hear about a much more advanced solver coming up against a wall.


UMichSpeedCubist wrote:
Btw, I figured out that GB's count of 189 is off by 10 because there are 10 "hidden" puzzles (by using certain applet parameter values not available on any links provided), including 2 hidden Spheres with alternative sticker-patterns. There are a few hidden Soccerball-shaped puzzles too (think 1.1.13/1.3.5/1.3.6 stuff). But I would imagine these to not be fully-tested or fail testing. I bet solving those wouldn't get scoreboarded.


So can you link directly to them? I'd be interested to see these.


UMichSpeedCubist wrote:
merlintocs is in the top 10, so I wouldn't use the term noob. Perhaps, intermediate (not beginner since you got Little Chop and Pentultimate). But you gotta work on physical 5x5, and since you are luckier than me and have a 7x7 - that too. A year ago, I got to try a 7x7 and hit 19 min on first try ever. (Theoretically, I should be sub-10 given a few more solves of practice.) If you want to get better at speedsolving, maybe I can help. How well does your Five turn? What method do you use?


Intermediate? I'll take that. The Pentultimate was tough, but I managed to get through it. It was very tedious moving the corners around, and there was quite a bit of undoing going on. Very satisfying to complete. By the way, I've never been offered the certificate option. I'm taking screen shots of all of my solves.

As far as my 5x5x5, I currently only have one from Rubik's, and it's very stiff. What's sad is that I never even realized how stiff it was until I got my V-Cube 6 and 7. It just so happens that I ordered an Eastsheen 5x5x5 a few days ago, though, so hopefully I'll have a better cube soon. I use a reduction method (centers, edges, solve like 3x3x3), and it takes a while. I build 1x1x3 lines of centers for the white side and then move the remaining centers around 1 or 2 at a time. Then I pair edges 2 at a time until they're all done. Then I use a very beginner-type method to solve like a 3x3x3. Actually, it's the method I learned some 25 years ago from James Nourse in the Simple Solution to Rubik's Cube. I probably average somewhere around 2 minutes for my 3x3x3 solves, and, to be honest, I've never tried very hard to get any faster. I would like to, though, and if there's any help you can offer, I'm all ears. Thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 11:18 pm 
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merlintocs wrote:
So can you link directly to them? I'd be interested to see these.

As a computer geek, the long answer is you can't link to them directly... I would make my own altered *.htm file which passes the right parameters to the applet (but that's advanced). The simple thing is that there is an *easy to miss* button on the top bar of the applet: FILE, to select different puzzles without changing the browser page. And by comparing with a master list, you can determine which 10 are the unlisted/hidden ones. It's not really that interesting, because most of them either don't work or are too ugly. Sorry GB, if I shouldn't have out-ed this tidbit of yours...

Speaking of advanced computer stuff no one ever explains..., it's possible to grab a copy of the applet *.jar file in order to run the program offline (but no record sending) if you snoop around the site and know what you're doing. This is an addional workaround for people who want to get around the IE problem of these applets locking up if instantiated more than once. It's easier to just run a second using Firefox, and if you must then a third using the standalone EXE provided on the site (but that is a bit outdated). (And yes, in case you haven't noticed the applet tends to lock up if it's open twice on separate IE windows.)

merlintocs wrote:
As far as my 5x5x5, I currently only have one from Rubik's, and it's very stiff. What's sad is that I never even realized how stiff it was until I got my V-Cube 6 and 7. It just so happens that I ordered an Eastsheen 5x5x5 a few days ago, though, so hopefully I'll have a better cube soon. I use a reduction method (centers, edges, solve like 3x3x3), and it takes a while. I build 1x1x3 lines of centers for the white side and then move the remaining centers around 1 or 2 at a time. Then I pair edges 2 at a time until they're all done. Then I use a very beginner-type method to solve like a 3x3x3. Actually, it's the method I learned some 25 years ago from James Nourse in the Simple Solution to Rubik's Cube. I probably average somewhere around 2 minutes for my 3x3x3 solves, and, to be honest, I've never tried very hard to get any faster

Well it's awesome that you're a vetren cuber from the 80s. I've only been cubing for a little over 10yrs (but all speed-cubing). It's actually quite rewarding to be able to solve it under about a minute, because a lot of potental viewers/audience (if you cube in public) don't have an attention-span longer than that.

Besides I doubt that you are using a reasoanble number of turns (<60) if you take over a minute to solve. Thus, your solving ability and alg arsenal are likely somewhat limited. The argument (excuse) people make for themselves is that it's pointless to learn more algs than you need, because of how non-sensical LL algs can be. But it turns out that after learning a lot of algs, one would start seeing the patterns and relationships - things start to *click*, and it becomes much easier to learn even more algs. Memorizing algs, and ablity to make up commutators on the fly, appear to be highly corrolated for reasons I don't know. So it is to your interest to get faster at 3x3 - it will translate into stronger *general puzzle solving ablity*.

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averages => 2x2 - 10.02, 3x3 - 22.16, 4x4 - 1:40.63, 5x5 - 2:22.60
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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 3:29 am 
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I just solved the Pentultimate! I came in 7th place in time with 1:09:58 and 4th in move count with 772.

I solved using what I believe is Doug's method. I got it from Noah's thread about the puzzle.

I'm pretty sure I could do it faster but I doubt I could reduce move count by very much.

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 9:36 pm 
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My score for PentUltimate
545 - 33:14
Image
Attachment:
PentaUltimate.JPG
PentaUltimate.JPG [ 27.08 KiB | Viewed 4633 times ]

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 10:50 pm 
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grigr wrote:
My score for PentUltimate
545 - 33:14
UMC and GB records are not compatible and because of the differing ways turns are counted, it is difficult to compare. Generally UMC gives higher turn-counts of course, in which case this is incredibly impressive. Why didn't you use GB applet? I find it much more friendly and only use UMC for puzzles that do not exist on GB site. Perhaps the thread title could be changed to include UMC also...

In other news, I did a FM solve of 2.2.1 using only 95 turns after over a dozen tries. Instead of it being an indication of my skills, it's a testament to Michael's (who scored 84). Seeing as my PB time hasn't dropped, after doing a bunch of solves for time and not FM, it's clear that I'm not much of a general-speed-puzzler.

Danny Devitt wrote:
I just solved the Pentultimate! I came in 7th place in time with 1:09:58 and 4th in move count with 772. I solved using what I believe is Doug's method. I got it from Noah's thread about the puzzle.
With that move count I'm not sure it's quite the same method, but thanks for mentioning me. I guess it could be. The ideal method is what Campbell described. Congratulations!

Despite the long list of solvers (9 humans now), IT *IS* one of the hardest puzzles on GB. So being able to solve it is no small step.

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single attempts => 4x4 - 1:21.78, 5x5 - 2:05.11, magic - 1.38, master magic - 5.03


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 11:00 pm 
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UMichSpeedCubist wrote:
With that move count I'm not sure it's quite the same method, but thanks for mentioning me. I guess it could be. The ideal method is what Campbell described. Congratulations!


I had thought it was your method because Noah had said so.

Noah wrote:
Now, as for a solution, I believe the first person to derive one was Doug Li, known as UMichSpeedCubist here on the forum. This is the quick solution he showed me when I met him for the first time.
from this thread

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 4:04 am 
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I'm back from a 2 week holiday in Corsica.

Better get back to solving!


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 5:05 pm 
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UMichSpeedCubist wrote:
Danny Devitt wrote:
I just solved the Pentultimate! I came in 7th place in time with 1:09:58 and 4th in move count with 772. I solved using what I believe is Doug's method. I got it from Noah's thread about the puzzle.
With that move count I'm not sure it's quite the same method, but thanks for mentioning me. I guess it could be. The ideal method is what Campbell described. Congratulations!

Despite the long list of solvers (9 humans now), IT *IS* one of the hardest puzzles on GB. So being able to solve it is no small step.

Solved it today in 603 moves using my own method:

1) Position the 5 corners and 5 centres adjacent to the white face -- intuitive. [31 moves in the above solve]
2) Rearrange the remaining 6 centres -- two short algos for a 3-cycle and a double pair swap. [13 moves]
3) Layer by layer, moving away from the white face to the yellow face, permute and orient a corner at a time (sometimes two) using 3-cycles and setup/undo moves -- details of algos below. [11 cycles = 527 moves]
4) Twist corners if necessary -- (L R') x 8 (L' R) x 8 twists one corner clockwise and another anticlockwise. [Needed once without setup moves, so 32 moves]

Algos for stage 3):

(F R F R' F' R') x 2

This results in four pairs of corner swaps. Repeating the same sequence mirrored -- reflected in the plane in which lie the centres of faces U, F, D and B -- gives us a 3-cycle plus two unwanted pair swaps:

(F' L' F' L F L) x 2

Now applying the inverses of the above two sequences, we eliminate the unwanted pair swaps, leaving a pure corner 3-cycle:

(R F R F' R' F') x 2
(L' F' L' F L F) x 2

Numbering the above lines 1 to 4:
1 2 3 4 = anticlockwise 3-cycle, preserving orientation.
1 4 3 2 = anticlockwise 3-cycle (a,b,c), long triangle side bc, twisting b clockwise and c anticlockwise.
3 4 1 2 = anticlockwise 3-cycle twisting all corners clockwise.
4 3 2 1 = clockwise 3-cycle, preserving orientation.
2 3 4 1 = clockwise 3-cycle (a,b,c), long triangle side bc, twisting b anticlockwise and c clockwise.
2 1 4 3 = clockwise 3-cycle twisting all corners anticlockwise.

Shorter algos should be possible for corners 6-10, as there's a lot more freedom over a 3-cycle by not caring what happens to corners 11-20. If it were to take 24 moves on average instead of 48 to permute and orient each of corners 6-10, that would be 100+ moves saved per solve.

I've been playing the Windows version of Gelatinbrain so far because I only see a grey rectangle when I try to use the applet. Might be time to wean myself off IE7 and install Firefox?


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 8:10 pm 
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I just finished solving all the dodecahedra that have more than 2 solvers. However, that excludes quite a few. 1.1.6, 1.1.7b, 1.1.8, 1.1.13, and 1.4.2. I'm sure if I look over this thread I can find solutions to most of them but where's the fun it that? :P

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 9:34 pm 
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Okay we got lurkers here... yesterday when I announced I worked on 2.2.1, besides me there where at 4 other improvements:
1 Michael Gottlieb 71 24/08/08
2 Lucas Garron 72 24/08/08
3 Ethan Rosen 74 24/08/08
4 Doug Cube 95 24/08/08
20 hippo 241 24/08/08

And the ever daunting:
1 Michael Gottlieb 00:01:17 24/08/08
I don't see how it's possible to get under 2 minutes on this thing, that's scary.

I would like to see people who participate in GB post an update at least once every 6 weeks or so. This thread is about sharing ideas and keeping each other motivated! Well then, anyone want to join me on the 2.2.7 list? I have been expecting Campbell, because I know he knows how to solve it. It's been a while since we heard anything from him though.

_________________
averages => 2x2 - 10.02, 3x3 - 22.16, 4x4 - 1:40.63, 5x5 - 2:22.60
single attempts => 4x4 - 1:21.78, 5x5 - 2:05.11, magic - 1.38, master magic - 5.03


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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 9:45 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2008 8:38 pm
Location: Russia
UMichSpeedCubist wrote:
grigr wrote:
My score for PentUltimate
545 - 33:14
UMC and GB records are not compatible and because of the differing ways turns are counted, it is difficult to compare. Generally UMC gives higher turn-counts of course, in which case this is incredibly impressive. Why didn't you use GB applet? I find it much more friendly and only use UMC for puzzles that do not exist on GB site. Perhaps the thread title could be changed to include UMC also...


For me does not work GB, I wrote about it above.
I do not consider PentUltimate as a difficult riddle, it was easy warm-up before I have solved 1.2.9 (HalfMinx)
Somebody will throw down a challenge 1.4.2 (BigChop) last unsolved Half-Dodecaedr puzzle?
I have constructed algorithms for 4.3.3 (OctaStar here is big brother LittleChop) but while I do not have time to solve it...
ps at me absolutely other approach to PentUltimate

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 Post subject: Re: Gelatin Brain's Applet Solutions Discussion Thread
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 2:02 pm 
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Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota, USA
I'll get back into this one day.

I've missed so much discussion in this thread by just skimming over it. One of these days I'll get down and read it all again, hopefully organize it a bit and catch up on the puzzles.

Once again, I only go for solving, not for speed or turn count.

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Fridrich
3x3 PB 22.63
3x3 Av 30.57

25, Male
Started cubing Oct 15 '05

Out of the game, but not completely.


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