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 Post subject: Risk of TP puzzle designers & producers (in USA market)!
PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 12:16 am 
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> Here are the listings that were removed:
> 291053708377 - Calvin's Puzzles 3x3x5 Super X-Cube with Evgeniy logo - Stickerless
> We encourage you to contact Moving Parts, LLC directly if you have any questions.
> You can send an email to: [removed]
> The person who filed the claim was: Dane Christianson, [removed]

Recently, we got all the ebay and amazon listings of Calvin's Puzzles 3x3x5 X-cube and Super X-Cube being removed by a guy, called Dane Christianson, [removed] / [removed] (TP forum member insaDane).
The listings including our own ebay now store and the stores of several honorable resellers.

I think that most of us still remember this guy, see the thread below,
1. http://twistypuzzles.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=24887 ( Jan 02, 2013 )
2. http://www.twistypuzzles.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=25631&start=0&hilit=Dane+Christianson
( Jun 13, 2013 )
grigr (evgeniy, our 335 series designer) : but this puzzle already patented and mass produced (Jan 03, 2013 )

While we are working on the 3x3x5 cuboid series production including x-cube at his 1st tp thread ( Jan 02, 2013 ), this guy still raised a project on kickstarter ( Jun 13, 2013 ).
Though our designer,evgeniy, had told him that we were making the x-cube at the very begining, he ignored him totally and kept his project on kickstarter, applied the patent in USA after that.

insaDane wrote:
I don't want this puzzle to be an issue. I made the X-Cube open source, I'm letting people > download the files, and I don't want to pursue a patent or take any time to sue people. That's not my style. We should find a way to make this puzzle kick ass in the market this Christmas. What do you think?

I was convinced not to complain to kickstarter about his kickstarter project as he said in public that he don't want to pursue a patent or take any time to sue people. That's not his style.

So that, I contacted this guy for collaboration, but he said to prefer to work on his own.
I have told him that I have no interest to legal case, he can sell his own brand x-cube and we sell ours.

A big shock and dis-appointment, this guy was lying to everybody in twisty puzzle forum.
This guy had applied the trademark "x-cube" which is the brand of Taiwan xb27 (inventor and producer) in 2010. And, have his so-called X-cube patent pending now, while we had our patent applied and granted for a long time. He had neither informed or asked xb27 for his authorization and stole xb27's band "x-cube" as his trademark. That are actual "Patent Trolling" and "Brand/trademark Trolling", a crime actually.
I heard about this criminal behaviours in China, but never thought that happened in USA and done by a well-educated university student.

Our X-cube design patent number : 2013302651766, Grant date : 18, Sept, 2013,
Inventor : Evgeniy Grigoriev, Country : Russia

From the kick starter comments:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/danec/the-x-cube/comments
Jeffrey Mayoff on October 18, 2013 I just came across this on Amazon:
[url]http://www.amazon.com/X-cube-Series-Calvins-Functional-Evgeniy/dp/B00FQFKI10/ref=sr_1_97…[/url]
What's going on?
Dane Christianson on October 21, 2013
@Jeffrey Looks like a knock-off. I'll have to do something about them taking my name as well.

It is not possible that we and evgeniy started to copy, design, make mould of his x-cube one year before his 1st thread on tp ( Jan 02, 2013 ) .
He is now attacking all our resellers who selling the Calvin's Puzzles 3x3x5 X-cubes and Super X-Cubes. Telling in public (again) that we and our designer, Evgeniy, are designing and making knock-off of his x-cube.

His ignorance, selfish, criminal behaviors and attacking already make us and our resellers angry.
Here, I wanna ask for the advice of all twisty puzzle friends. How to protect our reseller's selling of Calvin's Puzzles 3x3x5 X-cubes and Super X-Cube to from being attacked from this guy ?
Any ways to appeal/withdraw his so-called trademarks "x-cube" and pending patent ?

That is actual a serious Risk of TP puzzle designers & producers ( particularly in USA market as he is living in USA). If he keep trademarking other inventor's puzzle names as his trademarks (trademark Trolling) and patenting other inventor's puzzles (Patent Trolling) in USA. Then, all of us (including me and mr. meffert) will be deeply suffered, and lost the international market, particularly in USA.

Thanks to read the long message, all advices are welcome !

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Last edited by calvinfan on Sat Jul 19, 2014 12:09 am, edited 4 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Risk of TP puzzle designers & producers (in USA market)!
PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 12:29 am 
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I remember the thread at the time Calvin, what a low-life! You were very nice to him, considering you already had a patent on the puzzle before he started production.

I have no real knowledge of legal matters, but can't you contact ebay and amazon with your patent details to get them reinstated?

In fact, I would suggest you do the same back to him as he has done to you, report his products to ebay and amazon for violating your patent.

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 Post subject: Re: Risk of TP puzzle designers & producers (in USA market)!
PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 5:15 am 
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Calvin, is patent 212013302551766 available anywhere online? I couldn't find it doing a Google search. It may be useful to provide this to the various resellers so that they can respond back to Amazon and/or eBay with it showing that it pre-dates Dane Christianson's.


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 Post subject: Re: Risk of TP puzzle designers & producers (in USA market)!
PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 11:08 am 
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Hire a lawyer.

As much as we nerds might like the legal system to make sense and for logic and common sense to prevail, they are mostly irrelevant. That's what lawyers are for - to speak the crazy moon language of the legal system to each other, and speak it as loudly and as long as they have money backing them, until the other side shuts up because they ran out of money.

Amazon won't get deeply involved - it's not worth their time to read email claims about patents and jurisdictions and dates and stuff like that.


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 Post subject: Re: Risk of TP puzzle designers & producers (in USA market)!
PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 1:24 pm 
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I second Joshua's statement and get legal aid. This is not something anyone here can advise on unless they are in the legal area.

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 Post subject: Re: Risk of TP puzzle designers & producers (in USA market)!
PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 10:44 pm 
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Even just having a lawyer draft up a cease and desist letter pointing out their violation of your patent may slow them down, but probably not.

At the very least though, if you don't put up any sort of fight, if you decide to later, they can claim that you were not protecting your patent and it is therefore no longer covered.

-d


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 Post subject: Re: Risk of TP puzzle designers & producers (in USA market)!
PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 11:00 pm 
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Quote:
they can claim that you were not protecting your patent and it is therefore no longer covered


And that's why you should not take legal advice from an online forum.

(Patents do not require active defense, nor do copyrights - only trademarks. But I am not a lawyer, so you shouldn't trust me, either.)


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 Post subject: Re: Risk of TP puzzle designers & producers (in USA market)!
PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 11:11 pm 
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I don't recommend you go the lawyer route right away. As soon as you make this a conversation between lawyers both of you are not going to want to say anything to each other for fear that it will be used against you.

I highly recommend you stay friendly, responsive, and helpful.

The best possible outcome for both of you is that you reach an understanding that doesn't involve lawyers or the courts. You two need to talk to each other, get it all out on the table, and figure out where each of you stand and where the actual conflict is. Only after you've determined that you can resolve the issue amicably should you even think about a lawyer.

Lawyers are like mutually assured legal destruction. Don't turn to a "legal nuke" until you have to.

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 Post subject: Re: Risk of TP puzzle designers & producers (in USA market)!
PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 11:35 pm 
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I have a question regarding disputes overseas like this.

If I'm mistaken, Calvin is in China (Hong Kong?), and Dane is in the US. When disputing a problem like such in a court or formal way, does it have any effect on the case when a distance like this is present?

I ask due to (as far as I know) different laws and procedures being present from country to country; US does things this way, and China does things this way.

I'm still in agreement that a lawyer should be contacted regarding this, but again (like Joshua) I'm not a lawyer, but from a general understanding of law I do recommend a lawyer.


While I'm at it, in the case of 2 patents existing (this is an example, not regarding the topic) in which both patents are the same (like a 3x3 patent is filed from Erno Rubik, and a very similar patent is filed by MF8) does the patent that appeared first win by default, or is there some procedure where they compare?

-Chris

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 Post subject: Re: Risk of TP puzzle designers & producers (in USA market)!
PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2014 12:49 am 
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First of all I must say sorry that you have some troubles with this fantastic puzzle.

As far as I understand it, both puzzles can be legit. because they may use different construction/ mechanism. (Like Rubik 4x4x4 and V cubes 4x4x4). So both can be patented, and both can be sold all over the world. (If I wrong, please tell me)
The main problem came from the same name, and that one of the designers decided to say, that the other version is not legit.
I really do not know how can it be solved without speaking with each other, or take the case to the court.
There are so many questions regarding this issue.
just a few that pop out from my mind:
- is the name involved in the patents
- are they different in structure
- are the patents are for the "whole puzzle" as is, or what else is involved? mechanism / size / outlook / stickers / colors variations... etc.
- are the patents are world wide patents?
(Of course I do not wait for answers here. This is just some words that some people in this forum may not think about)

If you can't contact Dane, and discuss all the problems, then I suggest to hire a layer as soon as you can!

Olivér

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 Post subject: Re: Risk of TP puzzle designers & producers (in USA market)!
PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2014 1:24 am 
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I have removed a few emails addresses from the initial post. Please keep in mind our rule #5 and make sure you are not sharing details not already public or approved. All the quotes are from public sources so those are of course fine.

I am sorry to hear that a potential collaboration isn't happening. The puzzle itself is distinct from a 3x3x5 but of course it isn't a long jump from one to the other. Who actually began first is probably not possible to reconcile, but so far as I can tell his 2012 video is the first public mention.

I can see how that could be used to challenge the validity of the grigr/Calvin patent as it demonstrates prior art, yet that same video being prior art then of course might logically also rule out any chance of Dane getting a patent on the same grounds.
If mechanism is the basis for a potential patent, one would have to see a substantial difference from the already public domain 3x3x5 mechanism I suppose.

So as far as patents go I don't know that one could expect much real outcome here: Dane may attempt to get a patent or challenge the patent of grigr/Calvin but that will take time and money I doubt will be invested. And if he could, invalidation of that patent only makes sense if he could secure his own otherwise how is the invalidation useful in any takedown requests?

Regarding name there are also problems. The X-Cube name has been used before on multiple puzzles, and for over 10 years if you check the Museum, here is the first link I found using it and and more recently it has been used by xb27 as noted by Calvin. Using that name in conjunction with that specific puzzle design I can see being a bit close to home (I might have suggested something distinct) but it is hard to see that name, given it has been used multiple times before, being owned by him.

To Calvin and grigr: I imagine you will have to try to get Amazon's attention, and I am sure they have a process for challenging a takedown request. But given the number of KOs we see I can believe it may be hard to get someone to look deeper as it fits what looks like a very familiar pattern. I have a unique perspective on the task of having to look into such issues and make determinations.

Dave

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 Post subject: Re: Risk of TP puzzle designers & producers (in USA market)!
PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2014 1:39 am 
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This is bull. Fight it, Calvin.


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 Post subject: Re: Risk of TP puzzle designers & producers (in USA market)!
PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2014 2:22 pm 
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Doesn't look like patent trolling or trademark trolling to me at all, as (1) he is producing and selling the product and using the trademark for it and (2) isn't trying to get money from you (as far as I can tell). And he doesn't even seem to have a patent. Unless you can back up using those terms in some good way, I wouldn't use them.

Also, where/how was he lying? I don't see it. Neither does anything seem "criminal" to me. I'd be extremely careful with such serious accusations.

What's the whole text of the "Here are the listings that were removed:" message? Did it say nothing about why they were removed? Could it be that it's just the name "X-Cube" (in connection with a twisty puzzle, particularly this one) and that he wouldn't go after you if you stopped using that name (because it appears to be the only legal thing he has for this, and because it's really unnecessary for you to call it that)?


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 Post subject: Re: Risk of TP puzzle designers & producers (in USA market)!
PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2014 9:48 pm 
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Dane isn't a criminal or a low-life, guys, he's a kid. (whether he's in college or not, he's a kid.) and his behaviour reflects the centuries-old traditions of stubbornness and selfishness of kids all over the world.

so approach him with that in mind. talk to him, if you can. insist on a dialogue and be patient. (with all due respect to grigr, that was not a dialogue.)
i don't think Dane truly understands the problems he's creating, especially for himself — such as alienating the people who might produce and purchase his future puzzles. he simply doesn't want to lose all the time and effort he put into his puzzle, and doesn't want to lose face and be accused of ripping off someone else's design, which he didn't. Brandon is correct: if you send the lawyers in first, chances are there will be havoc.

at any rate, as Olivér suggests, given the subtle differences between the two versions (see below), is it possible there could be two patents?

Attachment:
XCubes.jpg
XCubes.jpg [ 946.4 KiB | Viewed 440 times ]


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 Post subject: Re: Risk of TP puzzle designers & producers (in USA market)!
PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2014 1:06 am 
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calvinfan wrote:
insaDane wrote:
I don't want this puzzle to be an issue. I made the X-Cube open source, I'm letting people > download the files, and I don't want to pursue a patent or take any time to sue people. That's not my style. We should find a way to make this puzzle kick ass in the market this Christmas. What do you think?

I was convinced not to complain to kickstarter about his kickstarter project as he said in public that he don't want to pursue a patent or take any time to sue people. That's not his style.
I don't want to pursue a patent - but he applied design patent after our release.
I don't want to...take any time to sue people. That's not my style. - but he is suing the ebay shops and amazon shops of us and several honorable customers now. What are ridiculous style !
We should find a way to make this puzzle kick ass in the market this Christmas. What do you think? - he was convincing me to not to against him (complain to kickstarter), but collaborate with him.
calvinfan wrote:
> So that, I contacted this guy for collaboration, but he said to prefer to work on his own.
I have told him that I have no interest to legal case, he can sell his own brand x-cube and we sell ours.

That is obviously a lie and a trick.

calvinfan wrote:
From the kick starter comments:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/danec/the-x-cube/comments
Jeffrey Mayoff on October 18, 2013 I just came across this on Amazon:
[url]http://www.amazon.com/X-cube-Series-Calvins-Functional-Evgeniy/dp/B00FQFKI10/ref=sr_1_97…[/url]
What's going on?
Dane Christianson on October 21, 2013
@Jeffrey Looks like a knock-off. I'll have to do something about them taking my name as well.

It is not possible that we and evgeniy started to copy, design, make mould of his x-cube one year before his 1st thread on tp ( Jan 02, 2013 ) .
He is now attacking all our resellers who selling the Calvin's Puzzles 3x3x5 X-cubes and Super X-Cubes. Telling in public (again) that we and our designer, Evgeniy, are designing and making knock-off of his x-cube.

As what he said "knock-off", I think that he is applying the design patent of x-cube and judging our x-cube as "knock-off" according on the shape. Again, it is not possible that the father, evgeniy(our designer), is a copy of the son. That is another obvious lie !

Well, I do have contacted him via email and ask what is wrong with his attacks.
He email replied [Admin summary:]The takedown is premised on them obtaining a trademark of the X Cube name.

a competitor , confuse the consumer - at the moment that egveniy told him that we had been producing the 3x3x5 huge series including the x-cube, he ignored him and produced it after that. He know that there is a competitor, he know that there will be confusion to the market.
Dave wrote:
Regarding name there are also problems. The X-Cube name has been used before on multiple puzzles, and for over 10 years if you check the Museum, here is the first link I found using it and and more recently it has been used by xb27 as noted by Calvin.

As Dave said, it is hard to believe that the x-cube name has been used over 10 years. But, it can still be trademark by this guy now. How does the trademark system run in USA ?@@
Since this guy has trademarked the name x-cube, all the puzzles name contained "x-cube" will be attacked by him if selling on ebay, amazon and other international platform, particularly in USA.

Youtube link : http://steveharveytv.com/the-x-cube/?ut ... ign=buffer
From the above video, he seems to has no sense of guilty of trademark/brand trolling and patent trolling, and very proud of his x-cube. Will you think that he will withdraw his un-reasonable trademark and pending patent himself ?

If this happened in China, we only need to show a design drawings/photo of our X-cube before your patent date, his patent will be withdrawn and invalid.
Same case, xb27 only need to prove his the right owner of his brand "X-cube" in 2010. His trademark will be withdrawn and invalid.
Sadly, this is in USA where I do not familiar with the patent and trademark procedures and laws. Anyway, I shall contact a lawyer and what we can do for this trouble case. Thanks.

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 Post subject: Re: Risk of TP puzzle designers & producers (in USA market)!
PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2014 1:33 am 
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I understand this is an emotional topic but please try to avoid direct accusatory statements like "obvious lie".
His current actions are not consistent with previous public statements but it is a very strong accusation to assume they were knowingly false at the time they were made.

This issue won't be resolved on this forum, so I'd like it not to be a location of heated or disrespectful debate. The issue has been raised and for the most part discussion has been appropriate and beneficial to the community. Let's make sure it stays that way, even if we voice a range of opinions.

I think without some detail as to the justification for the take downs we are all speculating. If it truly is the naming I am curious to see how it resolves. I don't think the claim is particularly strong, but at the same time the use of this particular name by grigr/Calvin can't well be seen as the simultaneous invention that the puzzle itself seems to be. Both sides have their own interests and unfortunately there doesn't seem to be much desire for a resolution.

Dave

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 Post subject: Re: Risk of TP puzzle designers & producers (in USA market)!
PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2014 4:31 am 
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Boy, what a mess! Worse is that the arguments are emotional accusations about misleading and "lies" which solves nothing. As there were no agreements between the parties the only thing that matters is who owns what IP from a legal perspective...

Is there a patent for the puzzle itself, or just a patent application, or neither? Who owns it, and what is the status? Has it been accepted, examined, granted? In what countries? What is the priority date? Did anyone else design or publish the puzzle before then? Can they prove it?

And similar with the X-Cube trademark: what is the status? Has it been examined and granted already, or is it still pending? In what classes of goods? In what countries? Has it been used for puzzles in those countries before, and can anyone prove it?

Until all these questions are answered from a legal perspective, it makes no sense to continue any argument at this stage, because the parties clearly won't be able to rebuild any relationship.

My advice:

1. Think about the questions above carefully, and do your research objectively.
2. Decide whether the market is really big enough for this puzzle to really fight for it.
3. Consider dropping the fight to focus on something else more constructive, and move on.
4. Get some advice from an IP lawyer, listen carefully, and reconsider 2 and 3 above.

Good luck!

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 Post subject: Re: Risk of TP puzzle designers & producers (in USA market)!
PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2014 5:39 am 
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calvinfan wrote:
I don't want to pursue a patent - but he applied design patent after our release.

As far as I can see, he didn't apply design patent, or apply a design patent, or apply for a design patent or even any kind of patent, but only filed a provisional application. So your claim looks wrong (and not just grammatically).

calvinfan wrote:
I don't want to...take any time to sue people. That's not my style. - but he is suing the ebay shops and amazon shops of us and several honorable customers now.

I don't think asking ebay/amazon to stop your sales is what people usually mean when they say "sue" (and I'm not sure it can mean that).

calvinfan wrote:
calvinfan wrote:
> So that, I contacted this guy for collaboration, but he said to prefer to work on his own.
I have told him that I have no interest to legal case, he can sell his own brand x-cube and we sell ours.

That is obviously a lie and a trick.

The only thing from him in that quote is that he said he prefers to work on his own, which is clearly true, so the lie and trick that you're talking about is from you? I'm confused.

calvinfan wrote:
As what he said "knock-off", I think that he is applying the design patent of x-cube and judging our x-cube as "knock-off" according on the shape. Again, it is not possible that the father, evgeniy(our designer), is a copy of the son. That is another obvious lie !

Why do you "think" and keep saying "design patent" and that it's about the shape when he doesn't have one and clearly answered you that it's about the "X-Cube" trademark?
Also, why do you call him the "son" when he was the first one to show this puzzle and the first to publicly use the name "X-Cube" for it?

calvinfan wrote:
He email replied : [...]

That's exactly what I suspected (see my previous post) and he's absolutely right with everything there (except that one misspelling of his trademark).

Btw, it looks like you're violating forum rule #5 again (if he did give you permission to publish that, it would be good to say so).

Dave wrote:
Regarding name there are also problems. The X-Cube name has been used before on multiple puzzles, and for over 10 years if you check the Museum, here is the first link I found using it and and more recently it has been used by xb27 as noted by Calvin.

Looks like it has never been registered in the US as a trademark for a puzzle until Dane did so.

calvinfan wrote:
he seems to has no sense of guilty of trademark/brand trolling and patent trolling

That's probably because he isn't guilty of that.

Calvin, I like you for what I know about you outside of this particular topic, but here you're just wrong on so many levels.

EDIT Moderator: Stefan Pochmann has asked me to remove a part of his post, after I had locked it. I have done as he wished.


Last edited by Stefan Pochmann on Sat Jul 19, 2014 9:48 am, edited 8 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Risk of TP puzzle designers & producers (in USA market)!
PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2014 5:46 am 
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DLitwin wrote:
I think without some detail as to the justification for the take downs we are all speculating.


Well the detail is right there in Dane's answer which Calvin posted. How much clearer can he say it? It's the "X-Cube" trademark, nothing more, nothing less. Just the name.


Last edited by Stefan Pochmann on Sat Jul 19, 2014 6:12 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Risk of TP puzzle designers & producers (in USA market)!
PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2014 5:52 am 
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KelvinS wrote:
And similar with the X-Cube trademark: what is the status? Has it been examined and granted already, or is it still pending? In what classes of goods? In what countries? Has it been used for puzzles in those countries before, and can anyone prove it?


Many of those questions are easily answered by a simple search on uspto.gov (unfortunately the search result URLs become invalid after some time, so better look it up yourself).


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 Post subject: Re: Risk of TP puzzle designers & producers (in USA market)!
PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2014 6:13 am 
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Stefan Pochmann wrote:
KelvinS wrote:
And similar with the X-Cube trademark: what is the status? Has it been examined and granted already, or is it still pending? In what classes of goods? In what countries? Has it been used for puzzles in those countries before, and can anyone prove it?


Many of those questions are easily answered by a simple search on uspto.gov (unfortunately the search result URLs become invalid after some time, so better look it up yourself).

I agree, it's just not my job to do this research. If Calvin wants to defend his rights, he should go about it the right way and do the proper research. Likewise it's not your business either, and you should stop flinging accusations about Calvin flinging accusations. It is not helping anyone.

In fact this whole discussion should be locked. It is not going anywhere and clearly not the right place to resolve these legal issues. Otherwise it is only going to get more nasty. Calvin, please take my advice.

And moderators, please, lock this topic!

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 Post subject: Re: Risk of TP puzzle designers & producers (in USA market)!
PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2014 6:45 am 
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KelvinS wrote:
Likewise it's not your business either

Well I personally can't stand seeing someone unjustly being called liar and criminal. I'm emotionally affected. That kinda does make it my business.

KelvinS wrote:
you should stop flinging accusations about Calvin flinging accusations.

I just reread everything I wrote and don't see any. Please point out even just one or take back your accusation.

KelvinS wrote:
It is not helping anyone.

I'm trying to point out the errors and I'm hoping it does help.


Last edited by Stefan Pochmann on Sat Jul 19, 2014 10:32 am, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Risk of TP puzzle designers & producers (in USA market)!
PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2014 7:01 am 
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Stefan, you raised some valid points but its more a question of tone: see how you highlighted "you" when referring to who is lying. Anyway I'm not going to get drawn into an argument, and instead happy to let others judge. But either way this discussion is clearly not going to resolve anything, and should be locked.

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Last edited by KelvinS on Sat Jul 19, 2014 7:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Risk of TP puzzle designers & producers (in USA market)!
PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2014 7:04 am 
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KelvinS wrote:
Stefan, you raised some valid points but its more a question of tone: see how you highlighted "you" when referring to who is lying.


I didn't say he's lying, I said he made it look like he himself said he's lying, pointing out that what he wrote doesn't make sense. Hence my question mark and my "I'm confused." (which I honestly am, as I have no idea what he was trying to say there). And I highlighted that word solely to make clearer what I meant. I don't think it's a bad tone and it certainly isn't an accusation (unless you call an obvious observation of him being sloppy and a plea to be more careful and to clarify an accusation).


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 Post subject: Re: Risk of TP puzzle designers & producers (in USA market)!
PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2014 7:40 am 
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The bottom line problem here is that Dane, or someone representing him, went to Amazon and eBay to have Calvin's puzzle removed claiming that it violated whatever IP rights he thinks he has. It is not clear if Calvin has any method to dispute this with either Amazon or eBay.

The reality is that Calvin's puzzle was already designed and made before Dane's as Dane was told at the time but chose to either not believe or go forward with his anyway. An agreement was made between them at that time to both go ahead and make their puzzles (Calvin's was already being manufactured) but now it appears that Dane has reneged on this agreement.

Is there any method for Calvin to contact Amazon and eBay about this to help straighten it out?


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 Post subject: Re: Risk of TP puzzle designers & producers (in USA market)!
PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2014 8:01 am 
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Volitar Prime wrote:
An agreement was made between them at that time to both go ahead and make their puzzles (Calvin's was already being manufactured) but now it appears that Dane has reneged on this agreement.

To me it doesn't appear at all like Dane is going against the puzzle. Only against his trademark being abused for it. I don't see any reneging of an agreement about the puzzle, and I haven't seen an agreement about the trademark.

Anyway, I'll try to stay out of this now. Sorry if I somehow made things worse.


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 Post subject: Re: Risk of TP puzzle designers & producers (in USA market)!
PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2014 2:52 pm 
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I'm going to lock this topic for now.
The whole discussion got a bit emotional and we as the TP forum cannot be of any help to either party.
They have to sort it out between themselves.

We might unlock it later again, if we get valid information from either side.

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