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 Post subject: The DoDep 3x3x3's are now on Shapeways
PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2014 12:57 am 
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All,

I now have the DoDep 3x3x3's on Shapeways...

The Mercury Version
The Venus Version
The Earth Version
The Mars Version
The Jupiter Version
The Saturn Version
The Uranus Version
The Neptune Version

Attachment:
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I'm still in the process of having Olivér add all the stickers to his shop. So far he has this one listed here.
Attachment:
Sticker1.png
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He still needs to add these:
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Sticker2.PNG
Sticker2.PNG [ 16.98 KiB | Viewed 3203 times ]

Attachment:
Sticker3.PNG
Sticker3.PNG [ 10.27 KiB | Viewed 3203 times ]


I've also asked him to make a set of Super Stickers and I'll add those links when I have them.

I also wanted to throw out this offer in case anyone is interested. Shapeways is currently offering 15% off on SW&F of one's own designs through May 12th. If someone wants all 8 versions, I'd be happy to order all 8 versions and dye and sticker them for you. Below is the price I calculate for the entire set during this 15% off sale. This includes EVERYTHING except the final shipping to you with will be via USPS priority mail at its exact cost which will depend on the package weight and your location. If you want super stickers I may have to add on a few bucks, I don't yet have the cost of those stickers from Olivér. If you are interested, PLEASE PM me before May 12th. If more then one party is interested, I can probably do a few sets but keep in mind it will take me some time to get everything dyed, assembled, and stickered. I will certainly keep you updated as to status. I've removed most of my markup for this offering as this will really help me get pictures for my Shapeways shop as well. After May 12th, I can also offer complete sets but the pricing will be different as I won't be able to take advantage of the 15% off sale. At the moment this comes to $107.13 per puzzle.
Attachment:
SetPrice.PNG
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Here I've calculated the number of permutations of all of these versions.
Image

Enjoy,
Carl

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Last edited by wwwmwww on Sun May 11, 2014 2:41 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The DoDep 3x3x3's are now on Shapeways
PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2014 4:25 am 
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$890!!! WHACK!

But it IS FOR EIGHT puzzles dear!

WHACK!
Whimper! :oops:

:shock: :shock: :shock:
Sigh!
I have been drooling over these ever since you mentioned you had the ability to make a set! The collector in me is speechless at the chance to get a full set and the puzzler in me is sort of recoiling at how difficult these are going to be.

Unfortunately the married man in me is a gibbering wreck in the corner worrying about which bit would hurt most after she found out about the cost!

Unfortunately for me the fear part seems to outweigh everything else. I'll just have to spend my time imagining and hoping for a lottery win! :?

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 Post subject: Re: The DoDep 3x3x3's are now on Shapeways
PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2014 5:20 am 
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Maybe the wife unit would agree on one? You can always try... hehe.

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 Post subject: Re: The DoDep 3x3x3's are now on Shapeways
PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2014 6:56 am 
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They look great, and astonishingly difficult to solve Carl! I'd love to try one of these in the future when I have some money lying around. I wish I had the $890 available now too :(

Have you solved any Carl? any word on the difficulty level?

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 Post subject: Re: The DoDep 3x3x3's are now on Shapeways
PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2014 12:49 pm 
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First let me explain the total is $857.03. The $882.18 and $890.75 were there to cover PayPal fees in case you payed with PayPal.
Puzzlemad wrote:
$890!!! WHACK!
martywolfman wrote:
I wish I had the $890 available now too :(
So you are both outside the USA? I just ask as you both are quoating the $890 price.

And trust me I totally understand. This is ALOT of money regardless of how you look at it. I'm married too and as bad as I want to order all 8 for myself (expecially in light of this 15% off sale) my wife would kill me too. I need to get them eventually so I can add pictures of each to my shop but if I do it on my own I'll have to spread it out a bit. This was much of my motivation of making this offer as I know many collectors out there with much deeper pockets then my own. My wife is already convinced this puzzle operation of mine is a money losing operation and I'm sure she's correct. To make 8 of these would require something like 4 or 5 weekends of solid work and I'm not charging anything for my time. I enjoy it... its a hobby so I'm trying to give you the best deal I can. I wish I could offer them for $10 each but I have to keep my wife off my back too.

And if you think these are expensive wait till you see what a set of Multi-DoDep 3x3x3's will cost. I already know how to turn my newest Real5x5x5 into all 8 versions as well. But I can safely say that will cost at least twice as much. And I'm struggling with a way to come up with the funds just to test this second Real5x5x5 without making the wife too mad. In an ideal world, I'd print two so I could put it in the design competition. If someone wants to sponsor a Real5x5x5 or two and is willing to wait till after IPP to get their puzzle(s) PM me. Keep in mind at the moment this is an untested design (though very closely related to these DoDep puzzles which work great).

Oh for the want of deeper pockets... If I won the lottery tomorrow I could easily sink $5K on Shapeways just printing my own new designs. Not to mention all the other great Shapeway puzzles out there that I want.
martywolfman wrote:
Have you solved any Carl? any word on the difficulty level?
Oh I wish I could answer that question. 30 years ago I could solve a 3x3x3 in under a minute. I had memorized a solution from a book. Today I can solve the top 2 layers of a 3x3x3 intuitively... something I couldn't do then as I relied on my memorized solution. But I've since forgotten all that and now resort to looking up moves for the last layer on the internet when I need to solve one. I keep telling myself someday I'll work out my own solution for the 3x3x3 without looking anything up but I spend all my puzzle time designing new mechanisms as I enjoy that more then solving. So I'm certainly NOT the best person to answer this question. However I can say this. The first one of these made was the Venus DoDep which I took with me to G4G10 (2 years ago). It had never been fully scrambled before then. While there I was approached by someone that wanted to scramble it. I didn't know it at the time and sadly I've since forgotten his name but he was a speed solver that put on a few shows during the event. He solved a 3x3x3 using one had at one point and I think he solved one while blind folded too. He was very very good and very very fast. So I handed him the cube and said sure its a puzzle and its meant to be scrambled... again I didn't know he was a speed solver at this point so I resigned myself that the cube would likely forever be scrambled after that moment as I certainly had no clue how to solve it. Anyways he played with it through one of the entire presentation sessions (about 2 hours) and by the end of that session he had it solved again. I was amazed. I wish I had taken a picture of him playing with it.

Carl

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 Post subject: Re: The DoDep 3x3x3's are now on Shapeways
PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2014 2:45 pm 
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Carl you are perfectly justified to ask this price. For 8 puzzles this is cheap! Just over $100 for a Shapeways puzzle isn't bad at all. :) Especially if you count in the hours of work you put in these!! So please don't feel bad, at all.

Hopefully those with deeper pockets will take pictures of the finished puzzle and send them to you for you to display in your shop, that would be a nice thing :)

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 Post subject: Re: The DoDep 3x3x3's are now on Shapeways
PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2014 3:34 pm 
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wwwmwww wrote:
So you are both outside the USA? I just ask as you both are quoating the $890 price.



Yes, English :)

I wasn't for a moment suggesting they are overpriced, that is good value for money for Shapeways puzzles. It's just I want to own all of them :)

These will definitely be on my wishlist though, for next time I make a Shapeways purchase, they look great :)

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 Post subject: Re: The DoDep 3x3x3's are now on Shapeways
PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2014 3:37 pm 
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Just gotta save up for a few months :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: The DoDep 3x3x3's are now on Shapeways
PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2014 3:42 pm 
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Haha, yeah, that seems likely with so many other puzzles I still need for my collection, all calling my name when payday comes around :D

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 Post subject: Re: The DoDep 3x3x3's are now on Shapeways
PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2014 4:58 pm 
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I also think the cost you quoted is actually very good value for money! Unfortunately those of you who follow my blog or folow me on Facebook already know that my habit is costing me a fortune! This means that your very reasonable price is beyond my current means!

Maybe during a future SW sale if I've not already blown my budget?

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 Post subject: Re: The DoDep 3x3x3's are now on Shapeways
PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2014 7:45 pm 
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Oh man. Deeper pockets would be amazing right now. :D

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 Post subject: Re: The DoDep 3x3x3's are now on Shapeways
PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2014 8:35 pm 
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Quick update...

Olivér has now told me the super stickers will be $5 per set. So here is some more complete pricing info.
Attachment:
SetPrice2.PNG
SetPrice2.PNG [ 10.54 KiB | Viewed 2910 times ]


Also he now has added this sticker set to his shop:
http://oliverstickers.com/carl-s-dodep-3x3x3-v2.html

Thanks,
Carl

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 Post subject: Re: The DoDep 3x3x3's are now on Shapeways
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2014 2:12 am 
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wwwmwww wrote:
martywolfman wrote:
Have you solved any Carl? any word on the difficulty level?
Oh I wish I could answer that question.
Compared the the Crazy 3x3x3 plus, you're only adding 1 additional piece type (24 copies of it unless you're doing Mercury or Venus where there's 16). I would consult posters from the Crazy 3x3x3 Plus solving thread.
You might try contacting a puzzle simulator author so people without $900 can play with them. pCubes by Boris looks pretty cool and flexible enough that he might be able to program it quickly.

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 Post subject: Re: The DoDep 3x3x3's are now on Shapeways
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2014 9:38 pm 
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I've gotten a PM about interest in an option to buy a kit which would allow any 1 of the 8 puzzles to be built. In fact this was my original plan. The one Neptune I've printed for myself was a kit with all 8 cores and 5 of each face type. You can see all 8 cores in this post. However after putting it together as the Neptune I have now changed my mind. This particular print was very poor and took alot of work to clean up. It still had compacted powder in places that made it hard to put together. This isn't a typical problem of Shapeways and I think its an issue with this particular print, not the model but it was enough effort to put together that now that its turning so well I don't want to take it apart and now that I've glued the center caps on it would be very hard to take apart again. So I figured most that bought a kit would put it together in one configuration and likely never use the extra parts so I went with the separate models I have on Shapeways now. Also the Mercury and Venus version I posted use the original TomZ design mechanism as that is cheaper to print and uses fewer parts. However that mechanism doesn't allow for the other 6 versions to be made.

So if there is interest in a kit there are several options:

(1) I could offer two kits. One which could be made as either the Mercury or Venus versions and another kit which could make the other 6.
Pros:
(a) This is the easiest option as I already have all the pieces needed modeled.
(b) It might be preferred by mechanism collectors like myself as it allows you to sample two very different mechanisms for doing the same/similar job.
Cons:
(a) Likely not the cheapest option as you'd need to buy two kits.

(2) I could offer 1 kit that allowed any one of the 8 puzzles to be built using the "reversed engineered E-Cube mech" which just used the pieces I've designed.
Pros:
(a) I'd expect this to be the cheapest option. It would also contain the fewest parts.
(b) You could get away with a single set of these stickers.
Cons:
(b) The Mercury and Venus versions wouldn't look right to me. You'd have a block of 9 cubies on two opposite faces which would look like they could be separated but they'd all act as one big face center. I feel these pieces should be joined before printing so they are actually 1 piece so they could be stickered as one piece. This is mostly cosmetic though and once corrected you'd also need these stickers.

(3) My preferred option would be to go with a single kit which used the "reversed engineered E-Cube mech". I'd also design two new pieces, the deep and the shallow large (Mercury/Venus) faces.
Pros:
(a) Everything would look correct.
(b) Should still be cheaper then option (1).
Cons:
(a) I need to make sure the puzzle is still able to be assembled with the new large faces. I can test that I think after I've designed them. I think it won't be a problem but this puzzle is trickier to put together then any other 5x5x5 I've seen do to all the extra 3x3x3 parts inside.

One other thing I think I'd change for a kit for any of the above options.... I'd be very tempted to put a 3mm hole in the center of the caps. This would allow you to use 3M hex screws and you'd be able to fit a 2.5mm allen wrench into the hole to unscrew the face centers after the caps had been glued in place. The face center stickers have cutouts for the numbers already so you wouldn't need to modify the stickers. If you dye your own puzzles this would also help you keep the caps organized during the dying process. They are the smallest pieces and I always end up hunting for one after I'm done dying them. With a hole I'd simply put them all on a large paperclip so they'd stay together through the dying process. If its not ever going to be taken apart again I think I prefer the look without a small hole in the face centers so I plan to keep the current individual puzzle models as they are but a kit I'd expect to be taken apart and this small hole I think would help alot. After the caps were glued on you also wouldn't have to worry about losing the screws.

Thoughts... I think I'll start on option 3 this weekend unless there is a stronger preference for one of the others. What are the thoughts on 3mm holes in the face centers?

Carl

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 Post subject: Re: The DoDep 3x3x3's are now on Shapeways
PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2014 6:02 am 
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Carl,
Thanks for the first steps in making a kit available. 8-) I'd be happy with either option 2 or 3. The holes in the face centers sound ok to me. This project, like the real 5x5x5, is so exciting! :)

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 Post subject: Re: The DoDep 3x3x3's are now on Shapeways
PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2014 9:27 pm 
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Olivér has done a GREAT job of making a Super Sticker template. I wanted to get some opinions here before I decided on a final design. Here is what he sent me.

Attachment:
SuperStickers.jpg
SuperStickers.jpg [ 79.84 KiB | Viewed 2655 times ]


And this looks great. It's not exactly what I had in mind but is some ways I like it better so now I can't make up my mind. So I see a few options:

(1) Stick with the design as is.

(2) Here is a very minor change I made to the design which places the planet logo on a full size sticker such that you to don't need to place a small sticker on top of another one. With the numbers on the center faces, I was planning on putting the logos on the white side of the red, white, and blue corner.
Attachment:
SuperStickers2.png
SuperStickers2.png [ 617.32 KiB | Viewed 2655 times ]


(3) Since the edges, wings, and corners are already unique I had initially envisioned a pattern which would look like this. This would allow the Planet logos to be a bit bigger and they could take up a whole solid white corner sticker.
Attachment:
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There is also the option of cutting or printing the numbers. I'm leaning toward cutting as that would allow easy access to the 3mm hole I'll put in the caps for the kit to allow the 3M hex screws to be unscrewed. Then again one could easily get a 3mm hole punch and make perfectly round holes which would give the stickers more sticking area. And for those that buy the individual puzzles they then just don't need to worry about the hole at all as those caps will be solid.

I'm sort of thinking the extra (unnecessary) colors on the edges, wings, and corners do give it a more consistent look so I'm sort of leaning toward printed numbers and getting myself a 3mm hole punch if I want to put holes in the center sticker.

Thoughts... I'm on the fence here and would really value some other opinions.

Thanks,
Carl

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 Post subject: Re: The DoDep 3x3x3's are now on Shapeways
PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2014 12:27 am 
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To make the planet logos as a super cube center, is not a bad idea, but in that case you can only put the signs only to the center.
In my version they can apply to any white area of the puzzle.

For the "super colors" of the edges: I think it looks better that way. I make all my sets like that.

I think the printed numbers would make the stickers more solid, and look better. But maybe a change in font color would be a good idea. (and maybe a bit smaller fonts as well.)

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 Post subject: Re: The DoDep 3x3x3's are now on Shapeways
PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2014 12:11 pm 
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So this is probably too off-topic at this point but I'm wondering whether it's possible to build an adjustable DoDep cube. Something like, you can pop off each center cap and flip a switch underneath that shifts the face between a 1 and 2, so that you don't have to buy separate cubes or swap pieces out.


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 Post subject: Re: The DoDep 3x3x3's are now on Shapeways
PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2014 2:04 pm 
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Jared wrote:
I'm wondering whether it's possible to build an adjustable DoDep cube. Something like, you can pop off each center cap and flip a switch underneath that shifts the face between a 1 and 2, so that you don't have to buy separate cubes or swap pieces out.
I wouldn't say its impossible but I don't believe its practical. I'll try to post some pictures showing what is different on the two face types. But not only does the face center change shape but the core must change shape below it as well. At this scale, I don't think any sort of variable locking mechanism would be stable. Maybe if parts were make out of metal and things were twice as large it could be done but I believe it would be cost prohibitive and even then I doubt it would work as well as the current mechanism. This mechanism is stronge enough one can't cheat and the turning is still very nice.

Carl

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 Post subject: Re: The DoDep 3x3x3's are now on Shapeways
PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2014 2:18 pm 
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Olivér Nagy wrote:
To make the planet logos as a super cube center, is not a bad idea, but in that case you can only put the signs only to the center.
I was proposing putting the planet logo on the corner, not a face center. The face centers already have the numbers on them so I thought it made sense to put it on a corner cubie. Actually with the stickers as I modified them you could also use it on an X-Center piece.
Olivér Nagy wrote:
In my version they can apply to any white area of the puzzle.
True... but I'm not sure what I think about putting one sticker on top of another. Even it it adheres well it looks sort of looks like it was added as an after thought.
Olivér Nagy wrote:
For the "super colors" of the edges: I think it looks better that way. I make all my sets like that.
Agreed... I am sold that it does look better and more consistent.
Olivér Nagy wrote:
I think the printed numbers would make the stickers more solid, and look better. But maybe a change in font color would be a good idea. (and maybe a bit smaller fonts as well.)
Agreed. Do you have any other fonts I can pick from? Feel free to post some samples and I'll see what I like the most.

Also one other question... the red face looks very dark to me. I'd call it burgundy. Is this due to what colors you can print? I think a brighter red might look better.

Thanks,
Carl

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 Post subject: Re: The DoDep 3x3x3's are now on Shapeways
PostPosted: Sat May 10, 2014 3:23 pm 
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One other thing I wanted to add and was just reminded of today. The moderators are already aware. But I did contact V-Cubes to make sure they had no objection to me offering these on Shapeways. Here is the relevant portion of their reply.
Konstantinos VERDES wrote:
From the info that you shared I can understand that the puzzles are using a big part of the V-CUBE design and I really appreciate the fact that you are discussing this with us.
We do not have any objection to offer these designs in shapeways. Please start and I do hope that many people will like them.
Thanks,
Carl

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 Post subject: Re: The DoDep 3x3x3's are now on Shapeways
PostPosted: Sat May 10, 2014 7:13 pm 
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wwwmwww wrote:
Jared wrote:
I'm wondering whether it's possible to build an adjustable DoDep cube.
I'll try to post some pictures showing what is different on the two face types.
Here are both of the face types with a Neptune core. The face with the square bottom goes over the circular extension off the core. This is a "2" type face. The face with the rounded bottom goes over the square extension off the core. This is a "1" type face.
Attachment:
SmallFaceCenters.PNG
SmallFaceCenters.PNG [ 315.8 KiB | Viewed 2340 times ]

And I've now also designed the larger faces for the kit so you can make the Mercury and Venus version with the same mechanism as the others. Here are both of the larger face centers over a Mercury core. Again the face with the square bottom goes over the circular extension off the core. This is a "2" type face. The face with the rounded bottom goes over the square extension off the core. This is a "1" type face.
Attachment:
LargeFaceCenters.PNG
LargeFaceCenters.PNG [ 323.16 KiB | Viewed 2340 times ]

Technically the larger type-2 face could gave four 3x3x3 edges and four 3x3x3 corners fused to it as well as once assembled that grouping of pieces is never separated. However as it is currently designed you wouldn't be able to assemble the puzzle if these pieces were fused together before hand. And this does sort of point out why the assembly is a bit tricky with this puzzle. Everything needs to be very loose to get all the pieces in place and then they go in basically all at the same time like a multi-piece coordinate motion puzzle. Its not too difficult but due to the number of pieces you won't be changing between puzzles every 5 minutes. You'll get it together and you'll want to leave it that way for a while.

Carl

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 Post subject: Re: The DoDep 3x3x3's are now on Shapeways
PostPosted: Sun May 11, 2014 11:56 am 
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By the way... you can in principle put a rounded face over a circular extension of the core and make a new type of face. Let's call it Type-3. And yes you could also put one of the squared faces over a square extension from the core and create yet a 4th face type. Let's call it Type-0.

So if a face allows both type 1 and type 2 movement you have 1+2=3. If it doesn't allow either you have both the face layer and the slice layer below it locked to the core and its more or less a null face or type 0.

If you consider all 4 face types there are 220 different puzzles which could be made with these parts.

I could even easily make a 5 type of face. One which locked the outer face layer to the core but left the slice layer below it free. I'd need to add a square hole to the core for each face which wouldn't affect any of the other parts and then make a new face center which would look just like the current Type-1 face center but if would have a square beg at its base which fit into the square holes added to the core. With 5 face types one could make 680 different puzzles from a set of 166 different pieces.

Not sure there is enough interest to redesign the cores and make the new face type. The kit I'm currently working on has 152 pieces and if one just looks at face types 1, 2, and 3 these are the 45 puzzles which could be constructed.

Image

Puzzle 1 would need a core with 6 square extension which I had not planned on including as I believe there are enough 3x3x3 out there already. If one is interested in the Type-0 faces then this core does become interesting but again all those puzzles are easily made from a normal 3x3x3.

Puzzles 47-56 would require a core with 6 circular extensions which I had stated here that I would not include as that would allow one to basically make E-Cubes Designer X's 5x5x5. If there is interest in the 8 moons that would also need this core let me know and I can approach E-Cubes to see if he'll let me include it.

Carl

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Last edited by wwwmwww on Mon May 12, 2014 2:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The DoDep 3x3x3's are now on Shapeways
PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2014 1:52 am 
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wwwmwww wrote:
I was proposing putting the planet logo on the corner, not a face center. The face centers already have the numbers on them so I thought it made sense to put it on a corner cubie. Actually with the stickers as I modified them you could also use it on an X-Center piece.

I see now! yes, it sound better like that. I'll modify the planet logos, and than the will fit both the corners or to the inner corners.

wwwmwww wrote:
Agreed. Do you have any other fonts I can pick from? Feel free to post some samples and I'll see what I like the most.

Please look around in font stores, and suggest me the one you like the better! (That way I suppose I need to change the fonts in all your sets)

wwwmwww wrote:
Also one other question... the red face looks very dark to me. I'd call it burgundy. Is this due to what colors you can print? I think a brighter red might look better.

I use this color for all my super cube sets. But of course I can use any coloring you want.
You can suggest the colors in RGB, CMYK or HTML format.
Please note that if you want to change the red, probably you need to change the orange as well!

As I see there is not much activity regarding the development of the super stickers, so I suggest to return to discuss further thing in e-mail.

Olivér

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 Post subject: Re: The DoDep 3x3x3's are now on Shapeways
PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2014 10:28 pm 
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All,

The DoDep Kit is now available in my shop:
http://www.shapeways.com/model/1964280/the-dodep-3x3x3-kit.html

I've modified the cores and faces just a bit over those offered with the individual puzzles. These cores will support a new type of face just just allows a slice turn. This faces are NOT a part of this kit as I felt it was already expensive enough. I have just ordered a copy of this kit for myself along with this one:
Attachment:
SliceFaces.jpg
SliceFaces.jpg [ 37.64 KiB | Viewed 2098 times ]


This contains the new face types. I want to test them first and I plan of offering them as an add-on later. This the full set of pieces there are 680 different puzzles which can be made. That doesn't count puzzles which are mirror images of each other (as I would consider those the same solving experience). With the set as is you can make at least the 45 puzzles detailed above.

The set is 90% already tested and proven parts but there are some new parts and some parts with minor changes made to them. I feel confident all is fine but if there are any concerns please wait and I'll offer a video on mine when it gets here and I have the time to put it together.

Thanks,
Carl

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 Post subject: Re: The DoDep 3x3x3's are now on Shapeways
PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2014 12:14 am 
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Carl, firstly, thanks so much for going to all the effort you've gone to with this. For my part, I think the price of the kit is very fair. As someone who's never ordered directly from SW before and for whom the thought of doing any kind of assembling fills me with fear, I have a few questions.

1. It seems people generally order their puzzles in either strong and flexible white, or strong and flexible black. Is there a reason why no-one orders them in the polished material? These are cheaper, which I also don't understand why.

2. Is the s&f black more expensive because of the black plastic, or some other reason?

3. You've said on the page that we need to order the screws, and the stickers separately. Any idea what the sticker set required for this kit will cost?

4. I've read quite thoroughly through all the posts so far, but as is often the case, I'm still a little confused. Will the kit which is now on SW enable us to make the 45 (but not all 56) puzzles in the list above? And does that mean there are 3 separate face types in the kit?

5. What's involved in assembling a shapeways product? And will assembling a puzzle in this kit be more difficult than whatever "normal" is?

Thanks

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 Post subject: Re: The DoDep 3x3x3's are now on Shapeways
PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2014 4:02 am 
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A kit with 220 or even better, 680 possible puzzles?

Count me in! Caught! Hook, line and sinker! :lol:

Seriously Carl, if you can do these for even a vaguely reasonable price then I'm buying! In fact, I'm starting to think up my blog post on the subject! Most of my readers are not into Twisty puzzles despite all my efforts to convert them and I can only imagine how horrified they will be when I post about these!!!! :D

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 Post subject: Re: The DoDep 3x3x3's are now on Shapeways
PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2014 4:17 am 
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Hi Carl,

I will definitely be buying this kit `to compliment my Coloured Plastic Crazy 333 set` :) . I'll wait for the extension set to be tested though, because I intend to get the whole lot. Maybe it's possible to fit the extension kit into the one model?

Are you making 8 additional X-Centre pieces to hold the Planet logos? Depending on the size of the parts, this might be OK, because restickering them wouldn't be practical.

The best solution for the hole in the Centre piece is to just cut the hole in the sticker with a hobby knife, using the hole in the part as a guide. This will make the hole in the sticker flush with the hole in the part. That's what I've done on the B4 parts that have the same requirement, it seems reasonable to me.

@rline,

The Polished material should be more expensive because it's slightly tumbled, which is an additional process. The coloured material (including black) is slightly more expensive because it's dyed, which is also an additional process.

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 Post subject: Re: The DoDep 3x3x3's are now on Shapeways
PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2014 12:29 pm 
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Wow, the kit looks like a bargain! I would love to get this, I'll have to see if I can save the money over the next few months!

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 Post subject: Re: The DoDep 3x3x3's are now on Shapeways
PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2014 12:30 pm 
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Hello,

First let me say my free time for puzzles during the work week is very limited. Between the questions here and PMs I'm going to be behind a bit. I generally get caught up on the weekends. I'll answer these as I find a free moment or two but be patient with me. Thanks so much for the interst...
rline wrote:
As someone who's never ordered directly from SW before and for whom the thought of doing any kind of assembling fills me with fear, I have a few questions.
Thanks... happy to help. To me the assembly is rather fun. You get a much better understanding of the mechanism seeing how these go together. That and it is the only puzzle here I can generally solve in a timely fashion.
rline wrote:
1. It seems people generally order their puzzles in either strong and flexible white, or strong and flexible black. Is there a reason why no-one orders them in the polished material? These are cheaper, which I also don't understand why.
People have printed some of my puzzles in the colored polished materials. Here is a Blue Bubbloid122. I think the black and the white are just more popular colors for twisty puzzles as it brings out the colors of the stickers more. Also I should point out that these are designed for all the rules of SW&F. The rules are a little different for the polished options. I think this kit is fine but I have NOT ordered one that is polished yet so it is possible Shapeways could have an issue. Its passes all their initial checks. If you order one that is polished and Shapeways objects PLEASE contact me and let me know what their objection is. Odds are I can fix it.
rline wrote:
2. Is the s&f black more expensive because of the black plastic, or some other reason?
They are ALL printed white so the BS&F is actually the exact same material as the WS&F. The extra cost come from the dying they do after the parts are printed. They have played with their black dying process more then any other color as they want a dark rich black. This is why its the most expensive and also why they don't offer a polished black option. As the parts are white on the inside the polishing process they use I believe doesn't leave the parts a dark enough black for them to be comfortable offering that option. Brandon I think has mostly solved this problem but Shapeways has yet to adopt it.
rline wrote:
3. You've said on the page that we need to order the screws, and the stickers separately. Any idea what the sticker set required for this kit will cost?
The set of Super Stickers Olivér is working on I believe will be $5. I've got links to some of the none super sets above. His shipping to me I believe is $6.50 but you may want to check his site for shipping charges to your location.
http://oliverstickers.com/
rline wrote:
4. I've read quite thoroughly through all the posts so far, but as is often the case, I'm still a little confused. Will the kit which is now on SW enable us to make the 45 (but not all 56) puzzles in the list above?
Yes... the 45 names ones above but a lot more actually which I haven't bothered to name yet (or even accurately count). I'll explain more in my next answer.
rline wrote:
And does that mean there are 3 separate face types in the kit?
First of all I've used face two different ways above. Talking about the pieces themselves this kit contains the following face centers:

6 of the small rounded face centers (their base looks like an octagon)
6 of the small squared face centers (their bade looks like a square)
2 of the large rounded face centers (one is used in a Mercury Puzzle, Venus Express is the only named puzzle which needs 2 of these... I think)
2 of the large squared face centers (both would be used to make the Venus Puzzle)

However I've also used face to talk about the types of movement a given face of the final puzzle can have. This set allows for 4 types of movement.

Type-1 = Just the outer face layer turns. The slice layer is locked to the core.
Type-2 = The outer face layer turns WITH the slice layer below it. These two layers are locked togeter.

However also using the same pieces as above there are two other types of movment that can be constructed.

If a rounted face center is placed over a round extension on the core you have a normal 5x5x5 face. Both the face layer and the slice layer can turn independantly of each other. Let's call this Type-3. I'd recomend using a normal sticker for these faces just as you would on a 5x5x5.

If a squared face center is placed over a square extension on the core then the slice layer is locked to the core AND the face layer is locked to the slice layer. Nothing on this face can turn. Let's call this Type-X. I'll work with Olivér to see if I can get face center stickers with an "X" on them added to the set.

There is a 5th type of movement which I can make but is NOT included in the current set. That being a face where the slice layer is free to turn on its own but the face layer is locked to the core. I'll go into more detail when I have those parts tested.

However let's talk about these 4 face movement types. There are 3 axes on this puzzle. Each axis has 2 faces. So let's see how many different axis types there are.

(1) X-X
(2) X-1
(3) X-2
(4) X-3
(5) 1-1
(6) 1-2
(7) 1-3
(8) 2-2
(9) 2-3
(10) 3-3

So there are 10 different types of axes possible with the current pieces, not counting the mirror images of some of these. For each puzzle construction you can in principle choose any 1 of these 10 for each axis on the puzzle. That results in (10+2)choose3 or 220 possible puzzle constructions.

The named puzzles above didn't count any of the X-faces. So you are just looking at:

(1) 1-1
(2) 1-2
(3) 1-3
(4) 2-2
(5) 2-3
(6) 3-3

(6+2)choose3 or 56 puzzles (A number I felt that I could name)

However I've only included 8 cores. So that is what cuts the set of 56 down to 45. This will also cut the set of 220 puzzles down to a smaller number (but I haven't calculated how much smaller yet).

One of the cores that are excluded is the one with all 6 square extensions. The removal of this core dropes the 220 to 210. The puzzles it removes are:

(1) A giant 1x1x1 (nothing moves)
(2) A shallow cut 3x3x3 (not very interesting)
(3) A 1x1x2 (Only one shallow face turns - Think Venus)
(4) A 1x1x3 (only two oppote shallow faces turn - Think Mercury)
...
(10) A shallow 3x3x3 where one face is locked to the core - Think Jupiter)

These 10 puzzles are all much easier to make starting from a 3xx3.

The other core which is removed is the one with all 6 circular extensions. This will remove the 10 names puzzles above and many more from the full set of 220. I don't yet know the exact number. These puzzles are much more interesting then the ones excluded from the lack of the other core.
rline wrote:
5. What's involved in assembling a shapeways product? And will assembling a puzzle in this kit be more difficult than whatever "normal" is?
If you buy SW&F and you want a white puzzle the assemply process is usually just a cleaning to remove any powder. I use an air compressore but the little cans of compressed air one can get at Wal-mart are good too. Even without that one could likely get most of the powder out by tapping the part on a table and blowing on it. All of this I'd recommend doing outside as it can make a mess. If you want a black puzzle you can either but it already dyed, dye it yourself, or ask me to quote you a set of dyed and already cleaned pieces. The assembly is rather strait foward. Its just figuring out how the pieces go together and the order to put them together that allows you to get all the pieces in. Its actually a fun puzzle in itself. I think of it as a 3D jigsaw puzzle. But it isn't that hard.... it just takes a little time and patience. I'll try to get a video together when I get my kit. And I'm willing to help anyone that gets stuck.

Carl

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Last edited by wwwmwww on Wed May 14, 2014 12:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The DoDep 3x3x3's are now on Shapeways
PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2014 5:25 pm 
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wwwmwww wrote:
The other core which is removed is the one with all 6 circular extensions. This will remove the 10 names puzzles above and many more from the full set of 220. I don't yet know the exact number.
With some more thinking, I just realized this statement is wrong. Of the 220 puzzles, those not in the above list they must all have at least one X-face. Otherwise they would be on the list of 56 puzzles above. The X-face uses a square extension off the core. So the lack of the core with 6 circular extensions doesn't affect ANY of these puzzles.

So of the 220 puzzles, 10 require to core with 6 square extensions and 10 require the core with 6 circular extensions (all 10 are named above). This means the kit as its offered, since its missing these 2 cores, allows for the construction of EXACTLY 200 different puzzles.

Carl

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 Post subject: Re: The DoDep 3x3x3's are now on Shapeways
PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2014 12:00 am 
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Carl,
Thanks for your (as always) really detailed answers to my questions. Like Burgo, I'll wait until the extensions are ready and buy the lot (hopefully in the one kit). I'm taking the plunge and will order white then dye it myself. First time for everything I suppose. Absolutely can't wait, and again, thankyou for the work you've done in making this kit available to us.

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 Post subject: Re: The DoDep 3x3x3's are now on Shapeways
PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2014 12:17 am 
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Puzzlemad wrote:
Seriously Carl, if you can do these for even a vaguely reasonable price then I'm buying!
Is the current kit price considered "reasonable"?
Burgo wrote:
I will definitely be buying this kit `to compliment my Coloured Plastic Crazy 333 set` :) . I'll wait for the extension set to be tested though, because I intend to get the whole lot. Maybe it's possible to fit the extension kit into the one model?
The current kit took a fair bit of work to get it down to under 1,000,000 triangles. I really don't think I want to push too much more into that kit. It already has all the parts to make all the DoDep's and then some which I suspect is what most want so I'd rather not make the base kit any more expensive as its already rather costly.
Puzzlemad wrote:
Are you making 8 additional X-Centre pieces to hold the Planet logos? Depending on the size of the parts, this might be OK, because restickering them wouldn't be practical.
No. The current kit only has the 8 corners and 24 X-Centers. I might be able to get 8 more in there but I was more envisioning the planet logos for the fixed puzzles so you could easily identify them if you had more then one. With the kit there are enough face centers that you can sticker one of each type for each color and you can look at the numbers to tell what you have. If there is interest in a adding 8 more to the set let me know but I'd really like to keep the introductory cost as low as possible.

An idea I'm considering as an add on kit would be the s=Slice Turn Only 5x5x5. It is based on the core with 6 round extension and it would have 6 of the new face types that aren't in the kit. I'd likely also add the other missing core to that set along with large version of the new face type. This would give you the pieces to make ALL 680 puzzles but as it would be a second puzzles you'd get a second set of all the other pieces. For example it would have another 24 X-Centers so you'd have the extra 8 for the stickers if you wanted them for that. My thinking was it would allow you to build 2 puzzles at a time to play with. You couldn't build any two at the same time. For example the Slice Turn Only 5x5x5 would you all 6 of the new face type so the second puzzle wouldn't be able to use any of those also. But there would still be many options you could build the second puzzle as. At least that is what I'm leaning toward at the moment. I want to get the parts I just ordered and test them first before I push trying to sell them too hard.
Burgo wrote:
The best solution for the hole in the Centre piece is to just cut the hole in the sticker with a hobby knife, using the hole in the part as a guide. This will make the hole in the sticker flush with the hole in the part. That's what I've done on the B4 parts that have the same requirement, it seems reasonable to me.
Any pictures? How did they turn out?

Carl

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 Post subject: Re: The DoDep 3x3x3's are now on Shapeways
PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2014 12:26 am 
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rline wrote:
Carl,
Thanks for your (as always) really detailed answers to my questions. Like Burgo, I'll wait until the extensions are ready and buy the lot (hopefully in the one kit). I'm taking the plunge and will order white then dye it myself. First time for everything I suppose. Absolutely can't wait, and again, thankyou for the work you've done in making this kit available to us.
Hmmm.... sounds like a second vote for everything in one set. I'm torn between making the base kit as cheap as possible and keeping everyone happy. And I also don't really want to have too many different kits available in my shop as the differences between them is likely to confuse people.

What do you think of the add-on kit as a second puzzle idea? Really I would be surprised if anyone ever managed to make all 200 puzzles that kit offers. The add on kit with a second set of pieces would allow you to work through the 680 twice as fast.

Carl

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 Post subject: Re: The DoDep 3x3x3's are now on Shapeways
PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2014 12:30 am 
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Fantastic work Carl.

I can't help but commenting on how much one of your cores looks like TIE fighter. Awesome!

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 Post subject: Re: The DoDep 3x3x3's are now on Shapeways
PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2014 1:12 am 
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I agree Carl,
Have the "base kit" which will cover the first 200 odd puzzles and then a separate "extension kit" which will allow the extra 400 or so.

Can I also suggest that you have a core only item on the shop? I'm sure that after 100 or so assemblies and disassembles the screws will get loose and the core will need replacing (even though the screw holes are 2.5mm and tight as you told me via pm). It would be great to easily be able to buy a new core as required.

Like Rline, I am in on this as soon as you are all sorted with the kits and decided what goes where.

Hopefully the community will support this well.

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 Post subject: Re: The DoDep 3x3x3's are now on Shapeways
PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2014 1:16 am 
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wwwmwww wrote:
rline wrote:
Carl,
Thanks for your (as always) really detailed answers to my questions. Like Burgo, I'll wait until the extensions are ready and buy the lot (hopefully in the one kit). I'm taking the plunge and will order white then dye it myself. First time for everything I suppose. Absolutely can't wait, and again, thankyou for the work you've done in making this kit available to us.
Hmmm.... sounds like a second vote for everything in one set. I'm torn between making the base kit as cheap as possible and keeping everyone happy. And I also don't really want to have too many different kits available in my shop as the differences between them is likely to confuse people.

What do you think of the add-on kit as a second puzzle idea?

I was just trying to be like Burgo :shock:

seriously, though, I honestly don't mind. If you decide that it's not viable to include the extensions in the one kit, I will be just as happy. I will buy the kit, withdraw from society, and work through the 200 puzzles. Do what seems best to you. Once you make that decision, I'll order (or wait, if you decide to incorporate the extensions into the kit). I'm still like a kid at Christmas time amazed at how many potential new puzzles will be coming my way.

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 Post subject: Re: The DoDep 3x3x3's are now on Shapeways
PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2014 3:06 am 
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wwwmwww wrote:
Any pictures? How did they turn out?
Here's a photo with the hole:
Attachment:
B4%201[1].jpg
B4%201[1].jpg [ 1.88 MiB | Viewed 1833 times ]

I'm fine with a `kit` and an `upgrade kit`.. now where have I heard that before??

If you include enough pieces to have 2x puzzles going at a time it would be good to consider not having to resticker things, I'd just like to avoid that one. The planet logos are probably irrelevant on a larger kit.. considering they're a fraction of the puzzles to be played. And perhaps a specific sticker sheet for the upgrade kit.

I'm also wondering if the Super stickers are ideal (for me), perhaps an option for Non-Super stickers too. I like the parity situations generated by equivocal parts, and I find super stickers quite busy and distracting. Actually.. we're probably just talking about standard 555 stickers in that case, with a few manually cut out larger squares.

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 Post subject: Re: The DoDep 3x3x3's are now on Shapeways
PostPosted: Thu May 22, 2014 1:03 am 
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GuiltyBystander wrote:
You might try contacting a puzzle simulator author so people without $900 can play with them. pCubes by Boris looks pretty cool and flexible enough that he might be able to program it quickly.

pCubes now includes Dodep cubes in Cubic\Dodep menu.


Last edited by Boris on Tue Jun 10, 2014 12:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The DoDep 3x3x3's are now on Shapeways
PostPosted: Thu May 22, 2014 10:07 pm 
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Boris wrote:
GuiltyBystander wrote:
You might try contacting a puzzle simulator author so people without $900 can play with them. pCubes by Boris looks pretty cool and flexible enough that he might be able to program it quickly.

pCubes now includes Dodep cubes in Cubic\Bandaged menu.
Nice!!! You do good work and you are fast. Thanks again. If you want to add any of the other puzzles which can be made from the DoDep kit feel free. In the mean time, I've had Olivér working on the sticker template. Here is the latest version. A normal version is in the works.
Attachment:
SuperStickers12XS.jpg
SuperStickers12XS.jpg [ 102.73 KiB | Viewed 1385 times ]

Also today, Shapeways notified me that they've shipped me the first DoDep kit. So I should have that to dye and test soon.

Carl

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 Post subject: Re: The DoDep 3x3x3's are now on Shapeways
PostPosted: Sun Jun 01, 2014 9:36 am 
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Quick update...

I got the first DoDep Kit from Shapeways this week. I'm dying it now. I hope to have time to make some videos next weekend. At the moment I'm turned off the ability to purchase the kit on Shapeways. I may make a few minor tweaks. Its fine as is but I think I can make it more tumbling friendly for Brandon and others.

Also Olivér now has my planet stickers in his shop:
http://oliverstickers.com/carl-s-planet-signs.html

And here is what the Normal stickers for the kit will look like.
Attachment:
Normal.jpg
Normal.jpg [ 110.56 KiB | Viewed 1088 times ]


Carl

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 Post subject: Re: The DoDep 3x3x3's are now on Shapeways
PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 11:22 pm 
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The first DoDep kit is now together. My attempt to make an assembly video...

http://youtu.be/tu_vpBqbHU4

Short version... I can make better puzzles then I can make videos. But if you are sleepy and don't want to count sheep maybe this is for you.

Enjoy,
Carl

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