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 Post subject: Re: Icosahedron cube
PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 11:48 am 
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I suggest "Eitan's Magic Virus", as in Magic Cube, but shaped like a virus (most viruses are shaped like icosahedra). Remember that you really need a catchy and intriguing name to catch on commercially. Then maybe it will catch on like a virus! :wink:

EDIT: Sorry, I was too late, just realised you already chose a name. :cry:

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 Post subject: Re: Icosahedron cube
PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 12:27 pm 
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No problem. It was a good suggestion, but I'm sticking with Eitan's Star.

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 Post subject: Re: Icosahedron cube
PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 1:09 pm 
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like Luke, I think something along the lines of MF8+Eitan... MF8an.
I dont feel creative atm tho. what do you think?

btw, because of the 5 black and 5 white, does this make sure that they will be produced in black and white plastic? thats great news!

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 Post subject: Re: Icosahedron cube
PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 1:15 pm 
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Well, I think i'm going to go with the logo that Burgo fixed up. Thanks for the suggestions guys.

Sigurd wrote:
btw, because of the 5 black and 5 white, does this make sure that they will be produced in black and white plastic? thats great news!

I don't think so. Notice I added in parentheses "(when available)", which means that if they don't produce it in both colors, I'm fine with getting copies in just 1 color. I don't think my request will determine whether they will produce it in both colors. But they do seem to do many of their puzzles in both, so let's keep our fingers crossed.

-Eitan

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 Post subject: Re: Icosahedron cube
PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 10:51 pm 
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Hi Eitan,

I'm glad you liked it, I was a bit hesitant to mess with something personal like the logo of your name, but it is only a small change.

On the colours (and I certainly don't want to offend anyone who is in love with black or white plastic), but I have noticed how small some of the stickers would be on the puzzle. And I am a puzzle `user`. The coloured plastic does have a big advantage, particularly with small stickers. I have 3 3x3 Crazy planet cubes, 2 coloured plastic and 1 stickered, on the stickered one all of the small stickers got into a bad way VERY quickly. The coloured plastic, on the other hand, actually polishes up to a real nice `shiny` state with more use. At first I didn't like it much either, but it grew on me, especially with the comparison of how those planet cubes looked after a bit of use.

I just hope that MF8 will continue to make `black, white and coloured plastic` where possible, especially where `small` stickers are involved.

Cheers,
Burgo.

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 Post subject: Re: Icosahedron cube
PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 11:02 pm 
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Eitan, I do love your logo, would that be your original logo or a mod by Burgo. I think it's very distinctive and unique. I'm also very happy that you're being recognized for this puzzle. Can't wait till the puzzle is actually produced! 8-)

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 Post subject: Re: Icosahedron cube
PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 12:13 pm 
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bhearn wrote:
stardust4ever wrote:
I finally break down and order Oskar's Icosaix on shapeways, and this news breaks, however I think a of this variety would be a better looking puzzle:

I always intended to make a rev 2 of this puzzle, for sale on Shapeways. But I have not had time, and Jason's FTI beat mine by a few days anyway.

But out of curiosity... how many takers would I get for this, at ~$300?

<crickets>

That's what I thought.


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 Post subject: Re: Icosahedron cube
PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:19 pm 
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If I may throw a slightly less enthusiastic voice into the mix.

What's with the attitude here?

From only the second reply, there start suggestions that this is a stolen design, even going so far as demands for money.

Eitan acknowledges he has no claim to the design, the image posted by crepeau shows this is not a unique concept, there is nothing suggesting copying went on, and yet there are expectations of "credits" and "royalties"? This is absurd.

Had MF8, in their every right, not decided to placate these, imagine the explosion that would have occurred here. Can a manufacturer/retailer risk the wrath of one of the major collecting communities, even against baseless claims?

I understand and agree with the basic premise of the "KO" mentality here, but is it possible it's being taken too far?


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 Post subject: Re: Icosahedron cube
PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 7:18 pm 
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Chris, I know what you mean about it sometimes going too far. That's one of the problems with posting puzzle or puzzle ideas on a forum like this. As soon as it's on the forum, it's public. This makes it kind of difficult to judge who owns a particular idea.

It would be interesting if someone did some research to find out exactly how to get intellectual property protection. Perhaps someone could make a nice nice table containing the various types of IP protection (utility patents, design patents, copyrights, etc.), how to apply for them, what kinds of ideas they protect, what stage of the idea's life they apply to (idea, sketches, prototype, finished product), and what rights they afford the IP holder.

I don't know what kind of IP protection I could have gotten on my puzzle, as it used the Shells mech, which has been used extensively by people other than myself (Tom, Eric, and Drew, just to name a few), so the mechanism for this puzzle is derivative, not unique. Actually, the Shells mech could probably be considered common knowledge among the puzzle-building community, making it not patentable (though, I'm not entirely sure on this point...).

I'll be taking a course on Intellectual Property next spring (9 months from now... so don't hold your breath), and I'll be sure to pass along any useful information I learn there.

-Eitan

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 Post subject: Re: Icosahedron cube
PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 7:37 pm 
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In this particular case, the concept was already out there, as gelatinbrain 2.1.3. So the question would be, is the Mf8 implementation based on your implementation. But as you point out, yours uses the well-established shells mech.

I do think there should be some credit for having been the first one to build a working version of the puzzle, and it sounds like they are giving you that, which is great. But legally I don't see that they would have to.


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 Post subject: Re: Icosahedron cube
PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 7:46 pm 
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I personally think that their willingness to recognize him as an important contributor, seeing as how he made the fist working one, says a lot about their character as a company. It certainly makes me more willing to purchase their products and support them. Regardless of whether they legally have to, the fact that they did really says something for integrity on their part.

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 Post subject: Re: Icosahedron cube
PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 1:11 am 
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I couldn't have put it better myself. I am very happy that there is such a respectful puzzle-making company in China.

-Eitan

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 Post subject: Re: Icosahedron cube
PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 7:40 am 
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Keeping Meffert in mind, this makes a second. MF8 sells some KOs though. That thought remains.

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 Post subject: Re: Icosahedron cube
PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 2:24 am 
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Hi, everybody
First, thanks for the concern of this topic. And here we want to talk something about this cube.

Early last year, we intended to produce 20-axes cube. In that time, we made two design, 20-axes dodecahedron and 20-axes icosahedron.
As the complexity of the 20-axes cube, we decided to produce 20-axes dodecahedron first as a test.
At the end of last year, we began the mold manufacturing, after revised several times, it was completed in mid-April.
Attachment:
Icosahedron-1.jpg
Icosahedron-1.jpg [ 13.31 KiB | Viewed 2817 times ]

Then, depend on the final design of the 20-axes dodecahedron's structure, we improve the 20-axes icosahedron's design, and post in the forum.
Later, we are told that the icosahedron was first MOD by Eitan. First we don't know about that because we don't know the name of DeFTI.
We accept that Eitan is the first one who make the cube in real, and respect him the nameing of the cube.
But this not mean we steal Eitan's design:
1. As we search in the forum, Eitan doesn't post the inter structure of the cube.
2. Later we make sure that our structure is different from Eitan's via our e-mail exchange.

About the look of the cube, I think every designer know that in order to design a two-layer 20-axes icosahedron, it is just two basic cutting method:
Attachment:
Icosahedron-2.jpg
Icosahedron-2.jpg [ 9.61 KiB | Viewed 2817 times ]
Attachment:
Icosahedron-3.jpg
Icosahedron-3.jpg [ 28.77 KiB | Viewed 2817 times ]

The key of turning is in the structure design.

If just judge the cube KO or not by the appearance look, the 2x2, 3x3, 4x4, 5x5 are all illegal expect Rubik's, and we are all no need to innovate.

Thanks
Mf8

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 Post subject: Re: Icosahedron cube
PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 5:18 am 
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Realistically, I think you have just reiterated everything that was already understood. There is no one attacking you or claiming your product is a KO at all. In fact, just the opposite is true. We were praising you for acknowledging Eitan despite your product not being a KO. So no worries on either side of the situation.

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 Post subject: Re: Icosahedron cube
PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 5:59 am 
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I agree with funmonkey54. No one is accusing mf8 of selling a KO puzzle, and praise where praise is due, they have cooperated with Eitan and agreed a course of action which is acceptable to both parties. And remember, designing a puzzle which "works" when printed on Shapeways is a lot different to bringing the same design to mass production standard (and I am not sure that this mf8 mech is at all similar to Eitan's anyway. Only he will be able to tell that when he gets his puzzle payment).

What we don't want to do here is "scare off" good manufacturers like mf8 by showing that a puzzle has already been prototyped and therefore "belongs" to someone. Patents and copyrights are expensive and complex beasts, especially when applied world-wide, and very few TP puzzle designers could apply them to their designs anyway. Trying to claim the high ground on a puzzle design just by saying "look, I have a prototype, so it's mine worldwide forever" is akin to patent trolls and cyber squatting.

And before the flames begin, I am not saying Eitan has behaved like this; he has followed a course of action which is both reasonable and honorable.

So, well done mf8 and good luck Eitan with Eitan's Star.

P.S. For TP members, if you feel that Eitan deserves more than just his name on the puzzle, if you buy one why not donate some money to him via PayPal which would fund his future puzzle design efforts? Say, $5? In this way, TP can encourage new designs and support designers without the worries of patent rights. The money may not amount to much, but it is better than nothing :)

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 Post subject: Re: Icosahedron cube
PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 12:52 pm 
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Awww... It's so great to have a community this supportive. Thanks Gus!

As far as timing goes, Martin has told me that the design is complete, but they won't have a physical prototype for another month or two. I'll be sure to post any updates as soon as I get them.

-Eitan

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 Post subject: Re: Icosahedron cube
PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 11:10 am 
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Well, I'm just a bit late in following up on this. My reason boils down to being busy, followed by lazy.

This is effectively over, but I'd like to explain what it is that I saw in this topic, because I realize it was significantly different from what many of you saw.

What I saw was a manufacturer, who has a history of producing unique products including several in the same vein as the puzzle in question here, publicizing this puzzle which should have been a surprise to no one. And yet the immediate reaction was accusative, going so far as making demands for money. And then Eitan contacting MF8 and asking for compensation, albeit small, for something that he acknowledges having no claim to.

Consider this from a manufacturer's perspective. You've produced a new puzzle that you're proud of, but as soon as you announce it, you're targeted with accusations of stealing on one of the primary collecting forums. Regardless of how unfounded the claims might be, ignoring them risks being branded an 'enemy' by a large and influential portion of your audience. Not only is this one puzzle in danger, but all your future business.

I understand and support the official stance of this forum with regard to knock-off puzzles. What bothers me is rather the zealotry with which some, particularly younger members, have taken to this cause.

For this specific case:
The name, nice, actually, gives the puzzle a bit of flavor.
The crediting, trivial.
The free puzzles, won't make much difference in the big picture.

The real issue is with setting a precedent of threatening manufacturers.

The replies about a "nice supporting community" don't seem to realize that's really not what happened here. I think there's a lot of re-thinking that could stand to be done.


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 Post subject: Re: Icosahedron cube
PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 2:54 pm 
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id like to make an FTI that looks similar to OVD's but has slightly shalower cuts giving it centers but also having the star appearance on the corners


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 Post subject: Re: Icosahedron cube
PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 6:41 pm 
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so wait... the puzzle is still being produced though, right?

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 Post subject: Re: Icosahedron cube
PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 7:18 pm 
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I think so...I think they're just releasing the dodecahedrons first.


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 Post subject: Re: Icosahedron cube
PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 8:22 pm 
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I am certain that the puzzle is being produced. My last update from Martin at MF8 said that prototypes wouldn't be made for another month or two.

-Eitan

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