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 Post subject: Re: Drewseph's Chopasaurus
PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 4:37 pm 
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c1829 wrote:
This is the Halfminx, right?

That's what this is. :D

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 Post subject: Re: Drewseph's Chopasaurus
PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 5:05 pm 
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Wow, just wow!

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 Post subject: Re: Drewseph's Chopasaurus
PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 5:09 pm 
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Allagem wrote:
This is the second most complicated 1st order (by my def), "pure" twisty puzzle possible.

Based on that I'm sure you consider the Big Chop the most complicated. It could have upwards of 2845 pieces. See here.

However I'm not sure I agree. Puzzles like the Mixup Cube with slidey pieces are not "pure"... correct?
The 48-Cube is "pure"... isn't it? Its a 24-Cube plus a 2x2x2. Do you not consider the sum of two 1st order puzzles also a 1st order puzzle? If so a Chopasaurus plus a Big Chop would be chopped up into many more pieces then either and thus be even more complicated. Lot's of chopping going on. So... I'm wondering if you consider this not "pure" or not 1st order? It doesn't need any slidey parts or fudging so I'd consider it "pure". I guess we need a definition of "pure".

Maybe we need a term like "single-symmetry" or "single twist type" twisty puzzle...

Carl

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Last edited by wwwmwww on Mon Sep 13, 2010 9:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Drewseph's Chopasaurus
PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 5:36 pm 
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Astonishing! I looked at the first photo and laughed in disbelief: "It can't be -- you have got to be kidding!" Looked down at the later photos. "It is! And it jumbles?!" Congratulations, Drew, this is an amazing achievement.


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 Post subject: Re: Drewseph's Chopasaurus
PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 5:56 pm 
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Sick :twisted: :twisted:
I though it's just a jumbo megaminx...
but when i saw the last pictures...
it can be sliced in half...epic

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 Post subject: Re: Drewseph's Chopasaurus
PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 8:54 pm 
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So when a working big chop is actually achieved, it'll all be over... :cry:
We need to find a new frontier!

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 Post subject: Re: Drewseph's Chopasaurus
PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 9:10 pm 
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I was under the impression that Oskar has already made a working Big Chop http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKXnI7ed0ZE.

EDIT: Magnets...I guess they don't count.


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 Post subject: Re: Drewseph's Chopasaurus
PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 9:17 pm 
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plus, he himself counted it as a failure because, magnets or not, it barely turns.

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 Post subject: Re: Drewseph's Chopasaurus
PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 10:28 pm 
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elijah wrote:
So when a working big chop is actually achieved, it'll all be over... :cry:
We need to find a new frontier!



I can assure you that there are many more challenges to be overcome in the twistypuzzle universe. The big chop, if it ever gets done (I have had quite a few discussions about it and not sure if it is possible due to a couple key factors) is just another mile stone.


Drew, this is truly an amazing puzzle! Being a (minor) part of the design process was both an honor and a privilege. Seeing a puzzle like this be born into reality is a real treat. Aside from the minor imperfections, the puzzle is a real achievement in engineering, the amount of layers is just astonishing. I cant wait to see what the future holds.

On another note, When I get some time (hopefully within this week) I am going to start a thread that deals specifically with design oh high layered puzzles. I'm hoping it takes the direction of Oskar's Linear versus Binary style for super high NxNxN thread. Working on this puzzle brought up a lot of questions that I hope the community as a whole can answer.

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 Post subject: Re: Drewseph's Chopasaurus
PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 11:55 pm 
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Definitely not the Halfminx. That's here.

-π (Eitan)

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 Post subject: Re: Drewseph's Chopasaurus
PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 12:23 am 
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wwwmwww wrote:
Allagem wrote:
This is the second most complicated 1st order (by my def), "pure" twisty puzzle possible.

Based on that I'm sure you consider the Big Chop the most complicated. It could have upwards of 2845 pieces.
...
I guess we need a definition of "pure".

Maybe we need a term like "single-symmetry" or "single twist type" twisty puzzle...

Carl

:lol: I knew Carl would catch this. I didn't define pure on pupose. It was a term I made up purely for the sake of being dramatic 8-) (that's why it's in quotes :wink: )

I don't think it really needs a definition. There's a few too many of those running around lately. Maybe replace it by the word "basic", or "fundamental", it gets the same meaning across. That being said, I don't think there's anything particularly better or worse about being a "pure" puzzle. It's just that using a fake term to eliminate would-be competitors to make a superlative statement is just so much COOLER than saying "it's an awesome puzzle" :)

Yes I was hinting at the Big Chop, and no, I don't consider Oskar's attempt a functional Big Chop because:
a) it BARELY moves.
b) it can't jumble whereas a true Big Chop CAN. (ok, granted it actually is physically POSSIBLE to jumble it, but the little cage devices clearly can't be used and Oskar claims trying to exert force to turn the puzzle causes pieces to fly everywhere, so this falls under the category of "Cannot Jumble in a Practical Manner" :lol:

However, it is quite an accomplishment to make the first physical implementation of a Big Chop that THEORETICALLY works, and seeing how the alternative is NEAR impossible, I do not wish to denounce Oskar's creation in any way.

Anyway, it seems that Drew's puzzle threads always get derailed, so we can talk about the Big Chop in another topic. Back to Drew's masterpiece!

Anyone know if the jumbling as any affect on the possible configurations of the puzzle in dodecahedral form? I suspect not, but that's a "pure" conjecture. ( :lol: )

These monstrously complex puzzles are so exciting! 8-)
Peace,
Matt Galla

PS my satisfaction with a new puzzle is directly proportional to the cumulative number of smiley faces used in all my posts in the puzzle's topic :mrgreen:


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 Post subject: Re: Drewseph's Chopasaurus
PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 12:38 pm 
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pirsquared wrote:
Definitely not the Halfminx. That's here.

-π (Eitan)


I was talking about the halfminx designed by grigr. Like his avatar picture.

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 Post subject: Re: Drewseph's Chopasaurus
PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 12:51 pm 
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pirsquared wrote:
Definitely not the Halfminx. That's here.

-π (Eitan)

The name halfminx was used to describe this puzzle before it was used for that puzzle.

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 Post subject: Re: Drewseph's Chopasaurus
PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 1:12 pm 
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theVDude wrote:
pirsquared wrote:
Definitely not the Halfminx. That's here.

-π (Eitan)

The name halfminx was used to describe this puzzle before it was used for that puzzle.


No problem. These days, there are so many cool puzzles coming out that you have to be pretty clever to come up with a name that hasn't been used before.

-Eitan

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 Post subject: Re: Drewseph's Chopasaurus
PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 1:29 pm 
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sorry to jump on the Big Chop topic here!

But wouldnt it be possible to make a working one with magnets like Rubiksfreakgreg's NOMECH pentultimate? (NO magnetic sphere and metal pieces) but magnets inserted into every piece. I think so! It would be a nice substitute, before the real thing comes (in 1-2 years??) (1-2 months if Drew really wants it!!!!) :)

btw. The real Big Chop is an icosahedron right?

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 Post subject: Re: Drewseph's Chopasaurus
PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 1:33 pm 
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Doubleyou wrote:
btw. The real Big Chop is an icosahedron right?


Following that logic, very few people own a Rubik's Cube, as a Rubik's Cube is a Truncated Cube. It is an Icoashedron in one form, but it was made as an dodecahedron, and so therefore is one.

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 Post subject: Re: Drewseph's Chopasaurus
PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 1:33 pm 
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Doubleyou wrote:
sorry to jump on the Big Chop topic here!

But wouldnt it be possible to make a working one with magnets like Rubiksfreakgreg's NOMECH pentultimate? (NO magnetic sphere and metal pieces) but magnets inserted into every piece. I think so! It would be a nice substitute, before the real thing comes (in 1-2 years??) (1-2 months if Drew really wants it!!!!) :)

btw. The real Big Chop is an icosahedron right?

Big chop is deepcut edge turning dodecahdron.

edit: that makes it have rhombic tricontahedron "faces".

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 Post subject: Re: Drewseph's Chopasaurus
PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 1:56 pm 
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The megaminx was one of my first puzzles, and I immedeately wanted it to do this kind of turning. And jumbling. And awesome-name-having.

BTW gingervergo: that chopasaurus was cool :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: Drewseph's Chopasaurus
PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 2:14 pm 
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theVDude wrote:
Doubleyou wrote:
sorry to jump on the Big Chop topic here!

But wouldnt it be possible to make a working one with magnets like Rubiksfreakgreg's NOMECH pentultimate? (NO magnetic sphere and metal pieces) but magnets inserted into every piece. I think so! It would be a nice substitute, before the real thing comes (in 1-2 years??) (1-2 months if Drew really wants it!!!!) :)

btw. The real Big Chop is an icosahedron right?

Big chop is deepcut edge turning dodecahdron.

edit: that makes it have rhombic tricontahedron "faces".

But the edge-turning dodecahedron and edge-turning icosahedron are simply different shapes for the same mechanical puzzle. They have the same number of pieces which turn in the same way. If you can build one, you can build the other.


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 Post subject: Re: Drewseph's Chopasaurus
PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 9:19 pm 
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Allagem wrote:
These monstrously complex puzzles are so exciting! 8-)

I couldn't agree more. But I did notice something interesting. Of the "fundamental" 1st order puzzles the Chopasaurus has the most surface piece types.

The 2x2x2 has one. A corner. It doesn't jumble. And has 3 axes of rotation.
The Skewb has two. A face center and a corner. It doesn't jumble. And has 4 axes of rotation.
The 24-Cube/Little Chop has one. A triangular face piece. It jumbles. And has 6 axes of rotation.

The Pentultimate has two. A face center and a corner. It doesn't jumble. And has 6 axes of rotation.
The Chopasaurus has three. A face center, a corner, and a triangular face piece. It jumbles. And has 10 axes of rotation.
The Big Chop has two. A triangual face piece and its mirror copy... maybe you could count that as one type. It jumbles. And has 15 axes of rotation.

So has a layered mech been used on the Pentultimate yet? If not how did this puzzle get built first?

And Drew... when do you expect your print of the Big Chop to arrive? Are we to believe you haven't at least started on the design yet? :mrgreen:

Carl

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 Post subject: Re: Drewseph's Chopasaurus
PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 10:17 pm 
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wwwmwww wrote:
Allagem wrote:
So has a layered mech been used on the Pentultimate yet? If not how did this puzzle get built first?

It was a knucklehead.


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 Post subject: Re: Drewseph's Chopasaurus
PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 10:17 pm 
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Aren't even more complex face turning puzzles possible as well? For instance, what about the big boulder? Whatever shape that is could become deep cut at some point in time, however crazy that would be...
Also, I suggest starting a new topic with this discussion... I would make it, but I don't know what to name it...

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 Post subject: Re: Drewseph's Chopasaurus
PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 11:55 pm 
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Drew, that's totally epic! Congratulations on a beautiful build!

But I have a stupid question (coming from a non-designer). With so many internal pieces, it's amazing -- and a testament to your design -- that the internal layers don't mis-align. Would it be more effective or robust to use the knucklehead mechanism (if I understand the terminology correctly)?


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 Post subject: Re: Drewseph's Chopasaurus
PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 8:35 am 
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VeryWetPaint wrote:
But the edge-turning dodecahedron and edge-turning icosahedron are simply different shapes for the same mechanical puzzle. They have the same number of pieces which turn in the same way. If you can build one, you can build the other.
D'oh, you're right. Best visualization I found:
Image

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 Post subject: Re: Drewseph's Chopasaurus
PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 9:28 am 
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Zhewei wrote:
It was a knucklehead.

I'm aware of the knucklehead one.

There is also the NOMECH Magnets Pentultimate.

There are also these.

"It uses an entirely new mechanism. It's not a knucklehead, shells mech, or crystal buildup." Aka Version 2.0

"It's a new mechanism based on what I learned in V2. Some things are the same in there and some things have been fundamentally changed." Aka Version 2.5

I believe the knucklehead one was Version 1.0 and io also stated "I'll likely try a shells version soon though." which I think would be Version 3.0. And I think shells version equals layered mech. As is... I'm not sure what the mech is that is used in Version 2.0 and 2.5. Is it the "sand" mech I've seen mentioned here? Has it ever been said?

Carl

P.S. Looks like my question has already been answered.

"My Pentultimate V2 (and improved V2.5) is using the mechanism you describe as "sand",..."

so that mystery has been solved. Or has it?

"While the Pentultimate V2 does use staples, the mechanism it has for keeping the central bands aligned is very novel and interesting,..."

More mystery... I want to see!!!!

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 Post subject: Re: Drewseph's Chopasaurus
PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 11:20 am 
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I am not sure which, V2 or V2.5, was based on a Master Pentultimate, with a layer hidden.


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 Post subject: Re: Drewseph's Chopasaurus
PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 1:59 pm 
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both were based on that mechanism, which just so happens to be called "sand"
I think this "sand" mech, however, has the highest chances of being able to make good turning, high complexity deep cut puzzles, since the chopasaurus here seems to take the shell mech to just about the absolute limit of its capabilities, from the looks of the video drew showed.

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 Post subject: Re: Drewseph's Chopasaurus
PostPosted: Fri Sep 17, 2010 1:41 am 
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Sorry for the off-topic ramble; your puzzle is truly amazing - It also just occured to me that the Chopasaurus puzzle could actually be bandaged to form a Dodecahedral "Skewb Ultimate" not unlike Mefferts, by blocking 4/5 of the cutting planes. The fact that you pulled this puzzle off is truly amazing :o
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(ASCII dinosaur)
How about a viscous dinosaur devouring it's favorite snack??? :lol:

(Can't use the spacebar to "float" the cube, so I had to white out. I miss the days of monospace ASCII art - coding the colors was a pain) :scrambled:

: ............................................... ..........................._,-~"¯¯"~-,
.................................................. ................__„-~"¯¯:::,-~~-,_::::"-
.................................................. ..........„~"¯::::::::::::::"::::::::::::::::::::::\
.................................................. .__„„„-"::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::"~-,
..........................................__-~"::,-':::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ::::~-,
..........................._______~"___-~"::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ::: :: :::::::::::"-,
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...................,'::::::::,-~~"~"_::',::|::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :: :::,~ ':\'-,::',"-\::'':"::::::::\|:|/
..............._,-'"~----":::/,~"¯"-:|::|::|:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::,~"::\'-,:\;;'-';;;;;;;;;;;,-'::\::|/
............,-'::::::::::::::::'-\~"O¯_/::,'::|:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::,-',::\'-,:|::";;;;;;;;;;;;,-':\:'-,::\
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............|::,-~"::::::::::::::"~~":::,-'::::::::::::::::::::::::_,-~':\'-,|:"'";;;;;;;;;;;;;;,-'¯::'-,:',\|
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..../:::::::::|:::::::::::::„---~~""¯¯¯::',:::::,';;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;,'::::::::: :: |_,-'
........ ________
..,'::::::::::::",:,-~"¯::::::::"-,::::::::::|:::/;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;,':::::::|::::,'............... |\__\__\__\
./:::::::::::::::|:::::::::::::::::::"-,:::::::\:::|¯¯¯"""~-,~,_/::::::::,':::/................. ||\__\__\__\
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::"~-,_::|::\: : : : : : |: : \::::::::/:/....................... |||\__\__\__\
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::",:::::::::::::"-':::\: : : : : : |: : :\::::::\ ........................ \||||__|__|__|
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::",:::::::::::::: ::::\: : : : : : \: : : |:::::;;\...................... \||__|__|__|
::::::::::::::::::"-,:::::::::::::::",:::::::::::::::/|\ ,: : : : : : : |::::,'/|::::|................... \|__|__|__|
:::::::::::::::::::::"-,:::::::::::::::"-,_::::::::::\|:/|,: : : : : : : |::: |'-,/|:::|
::::::::::::::::::::::::"~-,_::::::::::::::"~-,_:::"-,/|/\::::::::::: \::: \"-/|::|
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::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::"~-,_:::::\:::\:::"~/_:|:|\: : : '-,\::"::,'\
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:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ::,-,'"-:"~,:::::"/_/::|-/\--';;\:::/: ||\-,
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :/...'-,::::::"~„::::"-,/_:|:/\:/|/|/|_/:|
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: |......"-,::::::::"~-:::::""~~~"¯:::|
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: |........."-,_::::::::::::::::::::::::::::/
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::\ .............."~--„_____„„-~~"

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 Post subject: Re: Drewseph's Chopasaurus
PostPosted: Fri Sep 17, 2010 3:18 pm 
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This weekend I will set aside time to adjust the problem areas I feel were on the 1st chopasaurus. the mechanism will be the same overall, but tolerances will change, if the final puzzle still suffers form the flaws of the first, then I will adjust cut paths. so in short, Chopasaurus v1.1 should hopefully be better

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 Post subject: Re: Drewseph's Chopasaurus
PostPosted: Fri Sep 17, 2010 7:54 pm 
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Superb as always, drewseph. You are truly a legendary builder . You never cease to amaze me. Congrats on another amazing build.

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