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 Post subject: x8 cube - MOD from China
PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 10:58 pm 
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http://bbs.mf8.com.cn/viewthread.php?tid=43702
I found this link yesterday, I think it is interesting to all of you.
is based on 4x4 and 7x7, but now has its own know-how!
so it should not be a KO, is a new MOD
(if the administration thinks otherwise, please delete or edit this message)

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Unfortunately there are still no photos from fully assembled puzzle and video

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 Post subject: Re: x8 cube - MOD from China
PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 11:09 pm 
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interesting, I've been curious for a long time if the rubiks type sphere would help the big even cubes from losing the mech in a turn. I'm curious to see a video.


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 Post subject: Re: x8 cube - MOD from China
PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 11:11 pm 
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I was just going to post this. It's been on speedsolving for a while.


http://www.speedsolving.com/forum/showt ... hp?t=17373

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 Post subject: Re: x8 cube - MOD from China
PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 11:29 pm 
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Looks legit. Good job china, you finaly pulled through!

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 Post subject: Re: x8 cube - MOD from China
PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 11:59 pm 
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I am very excited about this! Hopefully it won't get shot down by cries of KO.


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 Post subject: Re: x8 cube - MOD from China
PostPosted: Sat Dec 05, 2009 12:42 am 
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Although it does have the V-style interlocking-like pieces, that almost unavoidable at this level. The rubik's sphere in the center is something I've always wanted to see more of.

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 Post subject: Re: x8 cube - MOD from China
PostPosted: Sat Dec 05, 2009 1:06 am 
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The sphere makes it so it doesn't mess with the vcube patents though :P


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 Post subject: Re: x8 cube - MOD from China
PostPosted: Sat Dec 05, 2009 1:34 am 
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It does interfere with there patents to some degree, If my IP memory serves me correctly. I believe a patent is in part or whole, and I am sure Kelvin and Pantazis can clear it up.

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 Post subject: Re: x8 cube - MOD from China
PostPosted: Sat Dec 05, 2009 2:11 am 
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Excellent creation!

PS. Forget about KO issues, "欲加之罪, 何患无辞".
Google says: Arbitrary and will hang speech.

Leslie


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 Post subject: Re: x8 cube - MOD from China
PostPosted: Sat Dec 05, 2009 3:05 am 
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Cubicle wrote:
It does interfere with there patents to some degree


That is true. A good example (for those who are in denial and just want to create false assumptions)
are the lawsuits from known phone companies which use part of their patented technology.

What is interesting here is that for soooo long, there has been too much attention from China to copying
in whole, part, or subdivisions, the V-cube technology, instead of trying to be creative.
I mean, if they want to make a new type of cube, I am sure they are smart enough, but this only
justifies the will to copy and copy and make more money.

"τὸ νικᾶν αὐτὸν αὑτὸν πασῶν νικῶν πρώτη τε καὶ ἀρίστη͵
τὸ δὲ ἡττᾶσθαι αὐτὸν ὑφ΄ ἑαυτοῦ πάντων αἴσχιστόν τε ἅμα καὶ κάκιστον"

;)


Pantazis


PS. I hope now you all know why I suspect people who support that copying "part of patented technology",
may have also done something similar (but not necessarily illegal) themselves.

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 Post subject: Re: x8 cube - MOD from China
PostPosted: Sat Dec 05, 2009 3:55 am 
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It is a pitty to be innocent about how exactly the patent law works. And it is very dangerous to be polemical especially when there's no solid backups. :(

At least I've very carefully read the V patent and related patents before I say this x8 cube is OK in both European/US/China version of this patent. Start a lawsuit if you don't believe it; do a poll around your friends/forum members if you don't believe it. 8-)

Time and tide waits for no man, struggling in agitative words is simply useless. I'll just have a sincere time enjoying the delicious new puzzle.

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 Post subject: Re: x8 cube - MOD from China
PostPosted: Sat Dec 05, 2009 5:08 am 
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Oh comon... all this KO talk. This is a one-off mod... The topic on speedcubing.com tells a bit more. This is not even mass produced (yet), so why are we already screaming about this being a KO while we don't care about the V-Cube shape mods, for example.

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 Post subject: Re: x8 cube - MOD from China
PostPosted: Sat Dec 05, 2009 6:22 am 
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TomZ wrote:
Oh comon... all this KO talk. This is a one-off mod... The topic on speedcubing.com tells a bit more. This is not even mass produced (yet), so why are we already screaming about this being a KO while we don't care about the V-Cube shape mods, for example.


Maybe because V-Cube mods are based on actual V-Cubes, while the others are not?
Just saying, *maybe*. And I believe we have said way too many times (for anyone to
even pretend to miss) that public advertisement of puzzles using patented technology
should be avoided. (mass produced or "to be"mass produces, what is the difference anyway?)
Leslie already admitted he will be "enjoying it", which can mean many things (including
access of the puzzle to many more people).

Moreover, what is the point of the post of the speedsolving forum link?
I just see some youngsters wowing all over a partially copied puzzle.

But I agree that screaming/capitalising/enlarging fonts is not good.

;)


Pantazis


PS. And Leslie, thanks for revealing your true colors. I suspected many things from the start.
If you have read carefully about patents etc, (1) you wouldn't be asking anyone here (which you did),
(2) you would know what is really going on (I am talking about the partial usage of a patent).
So give it up. Or even better, ask a lawyer to verify those, the firsts meetings are free.

PS2. Personally, I would never enjoy a copy of a puzzle which makes sad someone else
regardless how "delicious" it is. I would feel at least guilty.

PS3. As Plato correctly said: "He who commits injustice is ever made more wretched than he who suffers it."

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 Post subject: Re: x8 cube - MOD from China
PostPosted: Sat Dec 05, 2009 7:27 am 
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This is as much a KO as a 6x6 hex di pyramid is.
Exactly, it is not.
Someone posts a link about a mod on the mf8 forum, and people go crazy.
If a well known builder from this forum had made it using the exact same method, nothing but praise would be seen.

Stop over reacting, this is a great build, anyone who think's it is a KO is a fruitcake.

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 Post subject: Re: x8 cube - MOD from China
PostPosted: Sat Dec 05, 2009 7:48 am 
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I only talk on his idea.
genius idea and he can make the circle as complete circle.
and wait to see his vdo how can turn if some arc come from the 77 circle

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 Post subject: Re: x8 cube - MOD from China
PostPosted: Sat Dec 05, 2009 8:25 am 
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Namegoeswhere wrote:
This is as much a KO as a 6x6 hex di pyramid is.
Exactly, it is not.
Someone posts a link about a mod on the mf8 forum, and people go crazy.
If a well known builder from this forum had made it using the exact same method, nothing but praise would be seen.

Stop over reacting, this is a great build, anyone who think's it is a KO is a fruitcake.


And anyone who uses name calling is no better than their own arguments
If you saw any "craze" or "over-reaction" please point it out.

It is all explained above, go and read it. Use facts to defend yourself instead of trying to sound "cool" (not!).

;)


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 Post subject: Re: x8 cube - MOD from China
PostPosted: Sat Dec 05, 2009 10:06 am 
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kastellorizo wrote:
Moreover, what is the point of the post of the speedsolving forum link?


I'm glad they did... not sure if that makes it right or not but I found this info interesting.

Quote:
8*8*8 Mod by 7*7*7 (NEW EDIT: Last two layers added)
The original post is here, by 大烟头(ID on mf8: Da Yan Tou, real name: Bao Daqing) (A very famous DIYer in China, also the patent holder of Crazy 4*4*4 Cube and DAYAN DIY)


So what is a DAYAN DIY? I did a quick search and didn't see anything that looked like a puzzle.

Namegoeswhere wrote:
If a well known builder from this forum had made it using the exact same method, nothing but praise would be seen.


I'm not as sure about that... Bao Daqing is a well known and respected builder in these forums.

http://www.twistypuzzles.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=14856

Still I agree with Pantazis. This does step on the toes of Verdes patent. It's an amazing build and even if this never makes it to market I'm not sure he had the right to make it. I'm far from a patent expert but I believe it covers even single prototype builds like this and even though it isn't a copy of the whole V-design it is certainly a copy in part.

If I had the skill to make something like this I can see the urge to make one for yourself and I know I'd find an accomplishment like that hard to keep to yourself... but that doesn't make it legal. It does make me wonder if those with this skill... say someone like Tony Fisher... are tempted to make puzzles like these and just keep them to themselves.

Personally... I hope Bao Daqing continues to make more puzzles like his Crazy 4x4x4 Cubes and doesn't pursue taking this one to market.

Carl

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 Post subject: Re: x8 cube - MOD from China
PostPosted: Sat Dec 05, 2009 10:29 am 
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so MF8 is going to mass produce these?

they should make a 6x6 with a ball core!

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 Post subject: Re: x8 cube - MOD from China
PostPosted: Sat Dec 05, 2009 2:10 pm 
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Pantazis, please could you indicate the specific claim numbers in Verdes patent which are supposedly infringed by this one-off mod. I have significant experience with patent prosecutions and I have been through Verdes patent with a fine tooth comb, but I still don't see any connection or wrongdoing whatsoever. I think it would be more productive to be specific in this way rather than making general sweeping incriminating accusations without any evidence. Thanks.

PS. I think this is a fantastic creation, and I fully support it, unless and until I see specific and convincing evidence that this infringes any patent...

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 Post subject: Re: x8 cube - MOD from China
PostPosted: Sat Dec 05, 2009 2:56 pm 
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Kelvin Stott wrote:
but I still don't see any connection


I'm no expert... but the connection I see can be seen in the very first picture above.

Image

It looks like the 3x3x3 corner sections were taken off a 7x7x7... cut down a bit on the inside to make room for the ball... and stuck on a new mech that replaces the center slice layers on the 7x7x7. Since 3x3x3 x 8 (for each corer) = 216 and 8x8x8 = 512, somewhere between a half and a third of this design is a strait copy of Verdes patent.

Notice how the edge pieces split toward the core? I'm guessing these pieces are strait off the 7x7x7 and he didn't even make custom pieces for the 8x8x8. I agree its a fantastic creation... I just don't know if its a legal one.

Carl

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 Post subject: Re: x8 cube - MOD from China
PostPosted: Sat Dec 05, 2009 3:01 pm 
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That's why I'm calling on Pantazis to identify specific claims in Verdes patent which this supposedly infringes. Even though it may be a simple adaptation I believe this does not infringe any intellectual property rights...

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 Post subject: Re: x8 cube - MOD from China
PostPosted: Sat Dec 05, 2009 3:01 pm 
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It also looks like the center pieces were cut off and glued onto a 4x4x4 center piece. I kind of think that this is a 7x7x7 + 4x4x4 franken build. :D

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 Post subject: Re: x8 cube - MOD from China
PostPosted: Sat Dec 05, 2009 3:01 pm 
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This is a really cool mod! It takes real ingenuity to be able to visualize and then build an entire mechanism around an existing puzzle. But to use pieces from another puzzle as the mechanism around it is just AWESOME!

I say "BRAVO!"


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 Post subject: Re: x8 cube - MOD from China
PostPosted: Sat Dec 05, 2009 3:08 pm 
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wwwmwww wrote:
Notice how the edge pieces split toward the core? I'm guessing these pieces are strait off the 7x7x7 and he didn't even make custom pieces for the 8x8x8. I agree its a fantastic creation...


Yeap, I agree with that, and don't get me wrong, the idea is nice (although I am not sure of its functionality),
but it would have been a much more legal design, if it was produced after the Verdes patent expiration date.

Those who cannot see a connection (which is 100% clear here), probably cannot see a lot more things.

;)


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 Post subject: Re: x8 cube - MOD from China
PostPosted: Sat Dec 05, 2009 3:14 pm 
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Just to avoid any misunderstanding, a patent claim number is ... a number, like 1, 2, 3, etc. I'm still waiting to hear which specific claim or claims in Verdes patent are supposedly infringed here...

Otherwise such accusations are nothing more than libel.

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 Post subject: Re: x8 cube - MOD from China
PostPosted: Sat Dec 05, 2009 3:18 pm 
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OK, this is NOT a KO, in my opinion. First of all, it does NOt utilize the mechanism described in the v-cube patent (which would be the layer-mech; this one clearly uses a ball mechanism.) Also, this puzzle DOES appear to be made from parts of a modified v-cube 7 and a ball-mech 4x4x4 Rubik's Cube. As far as I can see, all the [external] parts are hand-made from v-cube 7x7x7's, whether authentic [v-cubes] or not is not important at the moment. Second, can we really call a 'design prototype' (not even, because I doubt that this will be masse-produced...) a KO puzzle, just because it uses a (heavily modified) mechanism of existing puzzles? Another thing i just wanted to mention: smAz is selling modified v-cubes on his site. Why are we OK with that (which he sells for profit,) yet are not OK with this 8x8x8? It is clearly a new mechanism (or at least, a mech utilizing two different patented mechanisms.) As far as we know, no one has any plans to produce these (utterly awesome) puzzles anyway. If it's OK to make a v-cube 3 for your own collection, why not a 8x8x8? or even a 9x9x9? These are not stealing any (future) market for the v-cube company (which I love). [note: the last segment about smAz isn't meant to be offensive, just something i wanted to point out.]

in summary:
These are not stealing future market for v-cubes because they are not being masse-produced (to our knowledge.)
It uses a heavily modified mechanism that isn't even like the proposed v-cube mech for the 8x8x8. (presumably hidden layer, like the 6x6x6.)
These appear to be made from authentic v-cubes. if your saying

therefore this is not a KO puzzle.

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 Post subject: Re: x8 cube - MOD from China
PostPosted: Sat Dec 05, 2009 3:26 pm 
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Monopoly wrote:

in summary:
These are not stealing future market for v-cubes because they are not being masse-produced (to our knowledge.)
It uses a heavily modified mechanism that isn't even like the proposed v-cube mech for the 8x8x8. (presumably hidden layer, like the 6x6x6.)
These appear to be made from authentic v-cubes. if your saying

therefore this is not a KO puzzle.


I will be honest. Those are the best points I have seen so far made by anyone else. ;)
(especially the part where you say the parts are made from authentic parts - I agree, it can be seen).

So in this case, I agree regarding the zero KO-ity (a new word I had to invent to characterise a puzzle's legality LOL)

As for a mass-production, such things are unknown, and they say to better be safe than sorry.
(what I mean is that, at this stage, there is no conflict, but what if there are "next stages"?)

8-)


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 Post subject: Re: x8 cube - MOD from China
PostPosted: Sat Dec 05, 2009 3:42 pm 
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Good, so then we agree this is completely legal and NOT a KO, since nobody can show that any of the claims in Verdes patent have been breached in any way. :D

Now to congratulate the designer:

Well done, ingenious creation, I wish you every success with it! :D

... and that's what this forum *should* be about: supporting original creative work, and giving credit where credit is due, no matter which country the designer comes from! :D

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 Post subject: Re: x8 cube - MOD from China
PostPosted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 5:13 am 
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kastellorizo wrote:
Namegoeswhere wrote:
This is as much a KO as a 6x6 hex di pyramid is.
Exactly, it is not.
Someone posts a link about a mod on the mf8 forum, and people go crazy.
If a well known builder from this forum had made it using the exact same method, nothing but praise would be seen.

Stop over reacting, this is a great build, anyone who think's it is a KO is a fruitcake.


And anyone who uses name calling is no better than their own arguments
If you saw any "craze" or "over-reaction" please point it out.

It is all explained above, go and read it. Use facts to defend yourself instead of trying to sound "cool" (not!).

;)


Pantazis

Because fruitcake is really namecalling?
Yeah, it isn't, it is more jokingly than anything else.
So before you start trying to act cool, first understand the intentions of the persons post.

But since you like me to point things out,
Quote:
Maybe because V-Cube mods are based on actual V-Cubes, while the others are not?
Just saying, *maybe*.

You yourself defended the use of KO parts for use in other puzzles, but if someone * maybe* uses a KO puzzle to base a mod on, the topic results into a huge debate. Ofcourse those are not the exact same circumstances, but it seems conveniant that only the way you are affeliated with KO products is the right one.
Quote:
And I believe we have said way too many times (for anyone to
even pretend to miss) that public advertisement of puzzles using patented technology
should be avoided.

The 7x7 mechanism can be found on the internet, in a perfectly clear patent explaining all the curves and angles.
The 8x8 that was build here does not conform to any patents.
It should be avoided to show the internals if they are patented and if the patent is not available to the public.
Also, if it will soon become patented, like the 12th cube, but that is the choice of the builder.
Regarding this this puzzle, neither of those apply, so why did you bring it up?
Quote:
(mass produced or "to be"mass produces, what is the difference anyway?)
Leslie already admitted he will be "enjoying it", which can mean many things (including
access of the puzzle to many more people).

It seems you are very good at taking everything in the worst possible way, such as seeing "fruitcake" as namecalling, while I might just be calling you deliciously and healthy? (allthough that would be more akward then anything else).
Saying things like that, is exactly what I meant by over-reacting. I have made this equation to show it:
I have made a puzzle, I will enjoy it ≠ I have intentionally build this puzzle of a KO and will now produce it for very little money to make Verdes go out of business and to become rich in the process.
Because that would be over reacting, wouldn't it?

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 Post subject: Re: x8 cube - MOD from China
PostPosted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 6:41 am 
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Namegoeswhere wrote:
Because fruitcake is really namecalling?
Yeah, it isn't, it is more jokingly than anything else.
So before you start trying to act cool, first understand the intentions of the persons post.


So the next time, please *bother* to post a smiley (you know, those little yellow things?)
Your intentions can never be known if you are not person to person.
(unless you have not realised this is the internet - I hope...)

Conclusion: "Fruitcake" *is* name-calling, and your way of "joking" *is* really ambiguous...



Namegoeswhere wrote:
You yourself defended the use of KO parts for use in other puzzles, but if someone * maybe* uses a KO puzzle to base a mod on, the topic results into a huge debate. Ofcourse those are not the exact same circumstances, but it seems conveniant that only the way you are affeliated with KO products is the right one.


This is where you mixed things very badly and should be more careful.
I was *not* talking about using parts, but by using a mod made from authentic parts
from an original V-Cube which was modified to *another* cube partially using the patent.
Buying an original cube is good, but using it to advertise a potentially mass produced KO product is not.
It is a long topic but since you don't get it (deliberately?), let's start briefly:

Some patents do not even allow *personal* usage. And it was clearly stated that mass production
is the part to fear. Verdes is *not* happy with the public disclosure of this. Would *you* be happy
in his place? (please answer this if you want to continue the "debate").

And my "way" (whatever you think it is) has been explained a million times. Ugh.



Namegoeswhere wrote:
The 7x7 mechanism can be found on the internet, in a perfectly clear patent explaining all the curves and angles.
The 8x8 that was build here does not conform to any patents.


Wrong. I explained above. The 8x8x8 uses partially the patent.



Namegoeswhere wrote:
It should be avoided to show the internals if they are patented and if the patent is not available to the public.
Also, if it will soon become patented, like the 12th cube, but that is the choice of the builder.
Regarding this this puzzle, neither of those apply, so why did you bring it up?


Because (clearly!) the V-12 cannot be patented anymore if using the V-mech,
because it is a mech which is already known (I am not talking about the recent 12-cube,
as - maybe? - we do not know the mech yet).

And the truth always comes out in the end. But I will give you a very discomforting example:
Someone copies a patent and he claims he files a patent. Then he profits and a very big batch
is being sold. When the original inventor finds out, he has already lost a big chunk of the market,
and the other guy is strong enough to pay corrupted officials to fight the original inventor.

I am not saying it will happen in this case, I am just giving an example which is based on real life example.



Namegoeswhere wrote:
It seems you are very good at taking everything in the worst possible way, such as seeing "fruitcake" as namecalling, while I might just be calling you deliciously and healthy? (allthough that would be more akward then anything else).



Again, being sarcastic and ironic is not my style, so I won't even bother back-answering that.
If it makes you feel good to say such things, I am happy for you. I explained that point already.
Instead you should spend some time to be in other people's place.



Namegoeswhere wrote:
Saying things like that, is exactly what I meant by over-reacting. I have made this equation to show it:
I have made a puzzle, I will enjoy it ≠ I have intentionally build this puzzle of a KO and will now produce it for very little money to make Verdes go out of business and to become rich in the process.
Because that would be over reacting, wouldn't it?


Just in case you haven't noticed, there are more puzzles which we are chasing that have come out
(yes, products *about* to be released). If Verdes losing millions and trying to defend his business
is overreacting, then what can I say. And what you said is not even funny.

But what I am saying? I can see many who want to discourage Verdes (while more fakes come out)
and not many who want to encourage. It is a real pity.


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 Post subject: Re: x8 cube - MOD from China
PostPosted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 8:07 am 
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Wow! Great puzzle. I love the way it's basically a transformation.
I can't believe the number of new nxnxn puzzles recently. So many years waiting to see a 6x6x6 but now it's like the proverbial bus.

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 Post subject: Re: x8 cube - MOD from China
PostPosted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 10:37 am 
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kastellorizo wrote:
Some patents do not even allow *personal* usage.


Does Verdes patent allow personal useage? I though I had seen it stated somewhere that it did not but I honestly don't know. If it does and Bao Daqing doesn't pursure getting this produced then let me take back anything negative that I've said. This really is a great puzzle and I'm glad to have seen it. I wonder... if this method does make a more stable 6x6x6 or 8x8x8... do you think Verdes and Bao Daqing could work together to get these produced? That might be the best of both worlds but that is one very BIG if. I don't think Bao Daqing could patent the ball idea for the 6x6x6 and higher order even cubes as it has been used in the 4x4x4 so this may be a case where Verdes could legally copy this idea now that it has been shown if he wanted to. But I don't always agree legal and what's right are the same thing. I think it might be really nice to see these 2 work together. Imagine some higher order Crazy Cubes...

Oh... and I'm still curious... What is a DAYAN DIY?

Carl

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 Post subject: Re: x8 cube - MOD from China
PostPosted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 10:56 am 
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wwwmwww wrote:
Does Verdes patent allow personal useage?

Carl, you missed the point, which is that this design isn't even covered by the FULL scope of Verdes patent, according to Claim 1 (in particular, see the restriction that the puzzle must be based on a "central cross" with "cylindrical arms" in bold red text):

Verdes (Claim 1) wrote:
A cubic logic toy which has the shape of a normal geometric solid, substantially cubic, which has N layers per each direction of the three-dimensional, rectangular Cartesian coordinate system, whose centre coincides with the geometric centre of the solid, said layers consisting of smaller separate pieces, the sides of said pieces which form part of the solid's external surface being substantially planar, said pieces being able to rotate in layers around the rectangular coordinate axes which pass through the centre of the solid's external surfaces and are vertical to said external surfaces, the visible surfaces of said pieces being coloured or bearing shapes or letters or numbers, said cubic logic toy being characterised by the fact that:
for the configuration of the internal surfaces of all the separate smaller pieces of the solid, apart from the required planar surfaces and the required concentric spherical surfaces whose centre coincides with the geometric centre of the solid, a minimum number of [kappa] right conical surfaces per semi-axis of said Cartesian coordinate system are used, the axis of said right conical surfaces coinciding with the corresponding semi-axis of said Cartesian coordinate system
and for the first and innermost conical surface, if its apex coincides with the solid's geometric centre, the generating angle [phi]1 is greater than 54,73561032[deg.] and if its apex moves to the negative part of the semi-axes the generating angle can be slightly less than 54,73561032[deg.], whereas for the following conical surfaces their generating angles are gradually increased, [phi][kappa]>[phi][kappa]-1> . . . >[phi]1, so that when N=2[kappa] the resultant solid has an even number of N visible to the user layers per direction, plus one additional layer, the intermediate layer in each direction, which is not visible to the toy user, whereas when N=2[kappa]+1, then the resultant solid has an odd number of N layers per direction, all visible to the toy user,
the use of said conical surfaces constituting the innovation and the improvement in this toy construction, and resulting in the fact that all the smaller separate pieces which form the final solid are self-contained, extend to the appropriate depth in the interior of the solid, depending on their position and the layer they belong to, each of said pieces consisting of three discernible separate parts of which
the first part, which lies towards the solid's surface is substantially cubic and is spherically cut when it is not visible to the user, the intermediate second part has a conical sphenoid shape, pointing substantially towards the geometric centre of the solid, its cross-section, when sectioned by spheres concentric with the geometric centre of the solid, being either similar in shape along the entire length of said conical sphenoid part, or different from part to part of its length, said cross-sections' shape, however, being either that of an equilateral spherical triangle or that of an isosceles spherical trapezium or that of a spherical quadrilateral or, more precisely, that of any triangle or trapezium or quadrilateral on a sphere, the faces of said intermediate conical sphenoid part being delimited either by conical or spherical or planar surfaces, and the innermost third part of each piece is a part of a sphere or of a spherical shell delimited appropriately by planar and conical surfaces, said third part being delimited by a cylindrical surface only when it comes to the six caps of the solid, the shaping of said smaller separate pieces being such as to create on them recesses-protrusions, whereby each piece is intercoupled and supported by its neighbouring pieces, said recesses-protrusions being such as to create, at the same time, general spherical recesses-protrusions between adjacent layers, the maximum number of said spherical recesses-protrusions being two, when the stability of the construction requires it, in this latter case the number of the concentric spherical surfaces as well as of the conical surfaces being increased as necessary, said recesses-protrusions on the one hand protecting the separate pieces and the layers from being dismantled, and on the other hand guiding said pieces and layers during rotation, the edges of each of the said separate pieces, whether linear or curved, having been appropriately rounded, all the separate pieces which form the solid are held together by the six caps of the solid, i.e. the central pieces of each face of the final solid, said caps being either non-visible or visible to the user, each cap having a suitable cylindrical hole, coaxial with the semi-axes of the Cartesian coordinate system, one supporting screw, optionally surrounded by a suitable spring, passing through each of said cylindrical holes, said holes, when the cap is visible to the user, being covered with a flat plastic piece after being steadily screwed to the corresponding cylindrical legs of the non-visible central three-dimensional solid supporting cross, said cross supporting the cube and being located at the centre of the logic toy's solid

In general, the more you write for Claim 1 the more restricted the patent becomes. I would have killed my patent agent for writing such a long, complicated and ultimately restricted claim (longest sentence in the world?). But hey, they charge 200 bucks per hour... :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: x8 cube - MOD from China
PostPosted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 11:50 am 
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Kelvin Stott wrote:
Carl, you missed the point, which is that this design isn't even covered by the FULL scope of Verdes patent, according to Claim 1 (for example, see the restriction that the puzzle must be based on a "central cross" with "cylindrical arms" in bold red text)


Maybe... like I said I'm no expert. I just know that if I were Bao Daqing I wouldn't be comfortable taking this design to production. And in truth I haven't seen it stated anywhere that he does so this may all be a mute point. But it's clear to me this design wouldn't have existed had it not been for Verdes design. 216 of the pieces are strait off of the V-7x7x7. Is it right if Bao takes this to market and takes some of Verdes's market away because Verdes might have had a patent agent who wrote a too long, complicated and ultimately restricted claim? Legal... maybe... I really don't know. But it wouldn't feel right... to me at least. Could Verdes take this idea and run with it himself? I suspect that too would be legal but again it wouldn't feel right to me. Bao's idea of marrying the 4x4x4 mech with the V-7x7x7 pieces appears original to me and that may be patentable itself but I don't think that would give him the right to produce the V-7x7x7 pieces he needs. Maybe he could buy a V-7x7x7 for each 8x8x8 he sold and get the needed pieces that way or he might even be able to produce a kit of the needed pieces you would need to turn a V-7x7x7 into his 8x8x8 but this is so far in the gray area that I really don't know.

In short... great puzzle... great idea... I'm glad to have seen it... but I think its a legal/moral hot potato or at least the production of it would be if tried before Verdes patent expiration date.

Carl

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 Post subject: Re: x8 cube - MOD from China
PostPosted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 11:58 am 
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Just a couple of words to ensure all is understood:

Claims ensure how the patent is being used.
And there can be many claims, but *only* one mechanism
which if course, is not made by just one simple part.

All the rest, are just jargon whose scope is to confuse others.
(as stated, lawyers are free for the first couple of visits for
anyone to verify).


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 Post subject: Re: x8 cube - MOD from China
PostPosted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 11:59 am 
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Personally, I think we should save the patent arguments for another thread, this one is meant for the MODIFICATION of a V7 adapted to a Rubik's/Mefferts 4x4x4 core. It is a beautiful transformation to say the least, and should not be picked upon like a KO. It's as much a KO as a 3x3 Hex-Di. Once we have absolute factual knowledge that it is being mass produced, then I would agree that it would need to go under closer investigation.

So that being said, Great modification and keep up the good work!!!!

Edit: The only way that I could possibly see this puzzle as being wrong in any sort of way whatsoever, is if it is built on KO 7x7x7's.

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 Post subject: Re: x8 cube - MOD from China
PostPosted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 2:45 pm 
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After reading all of this, I still can't see why this is excellent transformation is being criticized so heavily. Personally, I believe that if someone wants to make an 8x8 cube (or any other cube for that matter) for themselves they should be allowed to do so as long as they don't sell it.

Unless this becomes mass produced I don't see why everyone is crying.

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 Post subject: Re: x8 cube - MOD from China
PostPosted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 3:23 pm 
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even if it was mass produced the way it is built her, could it be a knock off
it is a different mechanism...


Also GREAT JOB ON THIS!!!

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 Post subject: Re: x8 cube - MOD from China
PostPosted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 4:26 pm 
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336616 wrote:
After reading all of this, I still can't see why this is excellent transformation is being criticized so heavily. Personally, I believe that if someone wants to make an 8x8 cube (or any other cube for that matter) for themselves they should be allowed to do so as long as they don't sell it.


As Pantazis has said "Some patents do not even allow *personal* usage." That said I'm not sure about Verdes patent. If so that that could make this puzzle illegal to possess. But that in itself I'd rank up there with going a mile/hour over the speed limit... I've done it so I can't say much. Where it might be an issue is sharing pics, etc. at the scale that is being done here but again only if Verdes patent doesn't allow personal use. So I don't even know if that is a real issue or not.

336616 wrote:
Unless this becomes mass produced I don't see why everyone is crying.


I think everyone here assumes that is the direction this is headed. Bao Daqing certainly has had his designs produced before... Look at the Crazy 4x4x4 Cubes. Is that a good assumption to make here? To be honest... I don't really think so and I agree with you. The example shown is made from cutting up a V-7x7x7 and a 4x4x4. If this goes to production I'm sure that isn't the way it will be done then. But I also tend to look at this from Verdes's point of view. I can see why he might not be happy with all this talk lately of 12x12x12's, 9x9x9's, 8x8x8's, 17x17x17's, etc. He's certainly been the victim of alot of KO activity and even much of this non-KO stuff I'm sure takes attention away from his products and atleast has the potential to impact his market. You could say that is just the nature of the business and that is true but I'm sure he doesn't have to be happy about it and I have some sympathy for him. If it weren't for him I wouldn't have a 6x6x6 and a 7x7x7 now. Personally I think there may be an oportunity here for Bao and Verdes to work together for the benefit of everyone and I'd love to see that happen.

Carl

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 Post subject: Re: x8 cube - MOD from China
PostPosted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 5:01 pm 
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Regarding the first paragraph:
When I mentioned "personal usage" it is about the country where the patent is filed in
and not about what the patent contains. Different countries treat patents in a different (strict) way.

Regarding the second paragraph, that is the point. If mass production starts, it is too late to stop,
and the damage is done, which is why such things should be dealt from its infancy.

I know some of you may take big breaths saying "oh God, not KO talk again".
But how about the view: "Oh God, why haven't they read previous posts to realise the problem
instead of repeating everything for the millionth time?".

Anyway, I am done with this topic... I need to finalise my dynamic puzzle gallery before my flight!!!

;)


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 Post subject: Re: x8 cube - MOD from China
PostPosted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 5:25 pm 
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Or how about (repeat) this design is NOT a KO as it falls outside the scope of Verdes patent and is an original design in its own right, which *might* just be better than Verdes mechanism in any case, so we should all stand behind it and support its (potential) mass production.

That is unless we are biased hypocrites and all this KO nonsense is trying to justify that we want Verdes to have a complete monopoly on all higher order puzzles, based on a single mechanism that never gets developed, and without any fair competition from genuine innovations.

I respect Verdes, but I think stating that this new design should not be mass produced is hypocritical. It's a legitimate innovation, fair competition and hats off to China for actually creating something original for a change. So why can't we just accept that and support it??? And who knows, maybe Verdes will respond by designing an even better mechanism. Now that has to be good for everyone.

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 Post subject: Re: x8 cube - MOD from China
PostPosted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 5:42 pm 
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Well, I said I won't reply, but just to clear up for those who don't know.

I was just told on MSN that Kelvin wanted to heat up again this discussion right
after I said I will not reply. The thing is, since last June he started a heated debate
on one of my own puzzle threads, so I have decided to not enter any "discussions"
with him. So now he is on my foe list for many months, and he will stay there.

I am simply not interested in what he says anymore, and I am not sure why he is
interested in what I say, especially as he clearly does not respect me.
But I know my life has been much better since without his "expertise".

At least I say I am not a lawyer, but I do ask a lawyer for such purposes.
(now you all know why I never bother to waste my time and reply to him).


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 Post subject: Re: x8 cube - MOD from China
PostPosted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 6:10 pm 
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Pantazis, cool down! I think we should try to keep our personal squabbles to ourselves, or at least within the privacy of PM's. If people are so eager for a debate on the legitimacy or legality of this puzzle transformation, then go ahead and take it to another thread. This is an incredible modification, and even if it uses the pieces from a V7, the builder himself said on the speed-cubing forum:

Quote:
...it's REALLY hard to make it because every part was needed to be modified and the size had to be calculated very accurately.


No puzzle manufacturer would use this method to make their own 8x8x8. To do a modification of this scale takes a lot of time and effort. (Not to mention, at least 2 V7's, if I am counting right!)

On the other hand, I do agree that this puzzle merits some debate as to its legitimacy, but I feel like this is not the place for it. I would hate to have spent so much time devising a mod like this, just to have it torn apart by KO claims.

I visit this forum to read about new and interesting puzzles, and to tell about my own contributions. I read the forum as a break from my engineering education. So can we please limit the posts in this thread to only those that are directly about the modification?


Thanks.

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 Post subject: Re: x8 cube - MOD from China
PostPosted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 6:20 pm 
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pirsquared wrote:
Pantazis, cool down!


eeerrr.... why would you think I have to cool down? I am actually trying to prevent things from heating up
by repeating them, which is why I explained some things. Plus, it is not me having bursts...

:roll:


Pantazis


PS. This is surely my last post in this topic. Cooling down is not the problem, wasting time is!!!

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 Post subject: Re: x8 cube - MOD from China
PostPosted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 6:41 pm 
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While this puzzle uses modified v-cube parts, it is closer to an extension of the rubik's 4x4x4 than a copy of a v-cube.

I don't know if it is patentable as a new design, but it certainly seems to fit the criteria. It would need to show the Rubiks 4x4x4 (and most likely V-cubes) as prior art, and whether those would make the design "obvious" instead of non obvious would be a judgement call of the patent office.


Either way, this is a really interesting mod and looks to be a good solution to the clicks "issue" for the V-6.

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 Post subject: Re: x8 cube - MOD from China
PostPosted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 6:48 pm 
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Re-thinking that right to possess this puzzle issue and even if Verdes patent has that strict clause about personal use I still think this puzzle is ok by itself. Bao didn't make molds of the V-7x7x7 pieces to make copies for his personal use... he modified original V-7x7x7 pieces. I assume if you buy a V-7x7x7 you have the right to cut it up if you want to. As that is what was done here I think all is fine with this single puzzle for Bao's personal use. Again... I'm no expert but the only issue still in question in my mind is production and as there has been no real reason to believe this is going that direction I'll drop that concern for now. But that does raise a question... it's ok to buy a V-7x7x7 mod it and sell it again... isn't it? As such... I think Bao could even sell this very puzzle if he wated to. To try an produce 8x8x8's for making money this way I think is crazy as its just too labor intensive and would cost too much.

pirsquared wrote:
To do a modification of this scale takes a lot of time and effort. (Not to mention, at least 2 V7's, if I am counting right!)


What makes you think he needs 2 V-7x7x7s? You can get all the corner pieces you'd need from one. I am curious as I think he may have cut up a V-6x6x6 for some of the face center pieces but I'm not sure. I do really like this mod and I have a lot of respect for Bao so I have some faith he'll proceed in a good eithical manner if this project does grow into anything more but I don't really expect it to.

Carl

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 Post subject: Re: x8 cube - MOD from China
PostPosted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 7:02 pm 
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wwwmwww wrote:
Re-thinking that right to possess this puzzle issue and even if Verdes patent has that strict clause about personal use I still think this puzzle is ok by itself. Bao didn't make molds of the V-7x7x7 pieces to make copies for his personal use... he modified original V-7x7x7 pieces. I assume if you buy a V-7x7x7 you have the right to cut it up if you want to. As that is what was done here I think all is fine with this single puzzle for Bao's personal use. Again... I'm no expert but the only issue still in question in my mind is production and as there has been no real reason to believe this is going that direction I'll drop that concern for now. But that does raise a question... it's ok to buy a V-7x7x7 mod it and sell it again... isn't it? As such... I think Bao could even sell this very puzzle if he wated to. To try an produce 8x8x8's for making money this way I think is crazy as its just too labor intensive and would cost too much.

pirsquared wrote:
To do a modification of this scale takes a lot of time and effort. (Not to mention, at least 2 V7's, if I am counting right!)


What makes you think he needs 2 V-7x7x7s? You can get all the corner pieces you'd need from one. I am curious as I think he may have cut up a V-6x6x6 for some of the face center pieces but I'm not sure. I do really like this mod and I have a lot of respect for Bao so I have some faith he'll proceed in a good eithical manner if this project does grow into anything more but I don't really expect it to.

Carl


This Mod Actually requires at least 4 7x7x7 V-Cubes because it uses 24 spindle pieces in the entire puzzle,Four at the centermost part of each face. This is an absolutely astounding achievement. I think I may try this myself and also in 6x6x6 form.

Chris


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 Post subject: Re: x8 cube - MOD from China
PostPosted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 8:24 pm 
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This is a fantastic puzzle mod.

The discussion, not quite so fantastic.

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