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 Post subject: MP Inverted 2x2?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 9:29 pm 
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Anyone else seen this? I have no idea if this is a KO or what, but please delete it if it is.

Image

Image

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 Post subject: Re: MP Inverted 2x2?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 9:41 pm 
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Incredible.


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 Post subject: Re: MP Inverted 2x2?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 9:48 pm 
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Definitely DLitwin's design. :?


viewtopic.php?f=15&t=12953


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 Post subject: Re: MP Inverted 2x2?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 9:48 pm 
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Unless that is a mini 3x3, then that is not the original Inverted 2x2. Scale is way off.

I don't know why, but I have an odd feeling about this.

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 Post subject: Re: MP Inverted 2x2?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 9:52 pm 
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The seller makes mention in other listings about custom hand made puzzles, but in this one the wording "first launch", and no mention of this being a handmade mod. I still doubt that its mass produced but either way its in poor taste.


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 Post subject: Re: MP Inverted 2x2?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 9:54 pm 
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Muffet wrote:
Definitely DLitwin's design. :?


viewtopic.php?f=15&t=12953


Perhaps it is, but this particular version has pointier points and a slightly cooler name.

Where did you find this?

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 Post subject: Re: MP Inverted 2x2?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 9:59 pm 
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I'd be interested to see what Dave thinks/knows of this.

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 Post subject: Re: MP Inverted 2x2?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 5:44 am 
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Out of curiosity, where did you find this?


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 Post subject: Re: MP Inverted 2x2?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 9:38 am 
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I also saw this on eBay and I was sad. There is an auction from Kuala Lumpur (Malaysia) that finishes in 2 days. Is there anything we can do about this? :(

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 Post subject: Re: MP Inverted 2x2?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 9:44 am 
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Unbelievable. I await DLitwin's comment...

Note to self: refrain from comment


Last edited by Bounb on Thu Jun 18, 2009 7:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: MP Inverted 2x2?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 11:21 am 
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:?

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Last edited by Steveo on Mon May 02, 2011 2:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: MP Inverted 2x2?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 11:31 am 
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I saw this auction very fast and already pmed him yesterday, his response:
DLitwin wrote:
Very interesting, I have never seen that!

They certainly didn't ask permission, although I don't know that they need to. It is a fairly novel idea, but not something that someone else couldn't come up with.

It is huge! 85mm! And a starting bid of $99 might drive people away.

I should contact them about a trade for one of mine! Odd that I see no "real" pictures, just ones on white backgrounds. But it is slightly different from mine, so not a copy of my pictures.

Dave

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 Post subject: Re: MP Inverted 2x2?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 8:44 pm 
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On ebay this seller also has 2 confused pillow auctions. The fact that they copied the name too makes it obvious they are just stealing ideas.


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 Post subject: Re: MP Inverted 2x2?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 9:50 pm 
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This just further proves that no market is safe from knock-offs. It is unfortunate that this occured, but I am glad to hear that Dave isn't too upset.

-Grant

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 Post subject: Re: MP Inverted 2x2?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 9:58 pm 
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ihatefrauwahlgren wrote:
but I am glad to hear that Dave isn't too upset

Says who? I haven't seen Dave post anything about it yet.

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 Post subject: Re: MP Inverted 2x2?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 10:03 pm 
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Sven wrote:
I saw this auction very fast and already pmed him yesterday, his response:
DLitwin wrote:
Very interesting, I have never seen that!

They certainly didn't ask permission, although I don't know that they need to. It is a fairly novel idea, but not something that someone else couldn't come up with.

It is huge! 85mm! And a starting bid of $99 might drive people away.

I should contact them about a trade for one of mine! Odd that I see no "real" pictures, just ones on white backgrounds. But it is slightly different from mine, so not a copy of my pictures.

Dave

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 Post subject: Re: MP Inverted 2x2?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 10:07 pm 
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:oops: For some reason I misinterpreted that post the first time I read it.
[Moderator: It wasn't properly quoted to me, I have fixed this up]

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 Post subject: Re: MP Inverted 2x2?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 11:28 pm 
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I have contacted the seller and I have no good reason to think there is any copying of my idea. His puzzle is quite a different scale (built up from a 45mm cube) and CNC machined, not cast. A straight copy would probably not choose those options.

He mentioned getting the idea in 2000 based on the base of an award (he showed me the picture and I definitely see the connection).

Honestly, although a bit novel, this puzzle idea (his and mine) isn't the most unique in the world. I made a Square-2 which others have made independently, so these things happen. I didn't give mine nearly as cool as a name and logo :)

I appreciate people being concerned about my creative rights and proper attribution, but I think we've all been getting a bit sensitive lately. There are plenty of sad copying situations out there to decry, but we should try to give the benefit of the doubt before we cry foul. This is what I did, getting in contact first. It is good to remember that not everyone out there reads TwistyPuzzles, or checks eBay. Had his come up a few days earlier I wouldn't have known (I should check eBay more often...).

As to my previous comment, I think the white background is just good photo editing. The shine on the edge of the puzzle would be hard to fake so I don't have any worries it is a real puzzle.

I hope perhaps he will join the forum and tell us about his work. If, in the case of some other of his puzzles, he may be using other ideas perhaps being a part of our forum can help all parties understand what is considered fair game and what is impolite.

Dave :)

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 Post subject: Re: MP Inverted 2x2?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 18, 2009 3:06 am 
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Yeah, I agree that it isn't right to immediately call "knockoff!" on this. It's just a shape mod of a 2x2, and not a particularly difficult one to think of either, so I can definitely see two people thinking of this independently.

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 Post subject: Re: MP Inverted 2x2?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 18, 2009 10:30 am 
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I don't know about the cube itself, but isn't that the Rhino 3-d logo?


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 Post subject: Re: MP Inverted 2x2?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 18, 2009 10:55 am 
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Lykwid wrote:
I don't know about the cube itself, but isn't that the Rhino 3-d logo?

Indeed it is, good catch :) I'm pretty sure that wouldn't be authorized by them...

Dave

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 Post subject: Re: MP Inverted 2x2?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 18, 2009 12:09 pm 
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I don't think I am buying the seller's story. Had he found this idea a long time ago, and with the 20 year history of his company
(as he claims), a legitimate question would be "why did he present them now?".

Even if he was new in the internet, I would have some doubts, but this guy is an ebay member for more than four years!
I think I see a flaw to his story, but maybe this is just me (and I am pretty sure he knows about this forum).
Even if he had a trophy to prove that, it is a far cry until a shape becomes a puzzle. Dave's idea is *not* an easy one to come by.
But sadly, it is very easy to copy, and it is even more easier for others to claim it as theirs.


Pantazis


PS. And I did not even mention the Rhino logo!

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 Post subject: Re: MP Inverted 2x2?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 18, 2009 12:21 pm 
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I don't buy it either but if Dave's fine with it, so be it.


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 Post subject: Re: MP Inverted 2x2?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 18, 2009 1:02 pm 
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tattooed wrote:
I don't buy it either but if Dave's fine with it, so be it.
I suppose the question would be: If I were not fine with it, what then?

Really there isn't anything I could do other than make myself upset. He certainly isn't trying to sell it by fooling people into thinking it is my puzzle, and isn't using the name I came up with for mine. He also doesn't seem to be trying to claim I copied him, and it certainly is the first of *his* version of this puzzle.

So the only real issue would be if he borrowed the idea of the puzzle or not. Aside from the close timing I don't have much reason to assume that, and would prefer not to accuse on such a basis. Much better to assume something positive, and perhaps make a friend in the process. If I am wrong, I don't lose anything (well, I lose nothing I could really keep) and if I am right I have built a stronger community.

Even assuming the worst and this was someone trying to gain from my concept I think there is a positive potential of getting them involved in our community and encouraging them to create unique works. Many, many people come to this forum with different backgrounds and views and, once involved, have been known to change their outlook. Take the case of how the cost of custom puzzles is viewed, or feelings on pirated software. Communication and understanding can transform in positive ways where stigma or negativity would have no effect.

I think from the piracy threads we all know I have pretty strong feelings about ownership of creative works, but I also want a community where people celebrate puzzles rather than look with suspicion. In this case I understand why people are guarded but, based on what I know now, I see no harm in accepting this as a case of parallel invention.

Dave :)

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Last edited by DLitwin on Thu Jun 18, 2009 1:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: MP Inverted 2x2?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 18, 2009 1:09 pm 
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I agree with everything you said and would like to subscribe to your newsletter. 8-)

Seriously though, there's nothing you could do or would want to do because it would only get you fired up and upset. I just think its in poor taste to do such a thing knowingly, maybe thats not the case here.

I guess its just more striking to me than other similar situations because of the unique shape. Its not your run of the geometric shape that is obvious to nearly everyone, so do give yourself credit there.

Anyways, I won't be purchasing one unless its a Captain Dave Litwin, Esq. original.


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 Post subject: Re: MP Inverted 2x2?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 18, 2009 1:28 pm 
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I'm sure people are curious so here is the picture sent to me described as the inspiration for the Rhinoceros 2x2.

Dave


Attachments:
File comment: TrophyPic
Tophy-99x147.jpg
Tophy-99x147.jpg [ 4.57 KiB | Viewed 4632 times ]

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 Post subject: Re: MP Inverted 2x2?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 18, 2009 1:50 pm 
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Would you happen to have a larger version of that picture?

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 Post subject: Re: MP Inverted 2x2?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 18, 2009 2:06 pm 
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But of course! It will be a shame if such a situation was to make anyone (especially you Dave!) upset. ;)

But sadly, there is not much to the defense of this seller. There are four main points:

(1) knowledge of internet, so it is a but strange he is not known only after he came up with any "idea",
(2) other suspicious puzzles listed by him, which too, I am convinced are not his ideas,
(3) the timing of "coming up" with this idea is perfectly fitting a timing for someone to copy this specific idea, and
(4) the Rhino logo, which shows no respect and/or knowledge for any types of originals.

All those points are not really ensuring his quality. Dave's character is not a naive one, but a very welcoming one.
And don't get me wrong, I always like making new friends, but I am also trying to ensure there is nothing dark behind.
Regarding David, we all know how kind and bright he is, I would personally feel a loss if one day I would not be regarded
to be his friend (not that it will happen, just saying LOL)

And it is true, getting upset is no solution when someone copies an idea. It is simply a new task for the... Puzzle Ninja!

;)


Pantazis


PS. I have a couple of football trophies which resemble a lot more the puzzle than that photo.

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 Post subject: Re: MP Inverted 2x2?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 18, 2009 4:22 pm 
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TomZ wrote:
Would you happen to have a larger version of that picture?

This is the picture I received, I am guessing it is a cell phone picture,. t was from a hotel in Malaysia apparently. But you can see the base of the trophy stand well enough to see that it could be an inspiration for this puzzle.

Dave

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 Post subject: Re: MP Inverted 2x2?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 5:23 pm 
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There is also a video on youtube now http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-a04F46C4s&feature=channel_page

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 Post subject: Re: MP Inverted 2x2?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 4:25 pm 
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Well, unforutnately it seems this builder's case becomes less and less credible. He now has a "Ball in Cube" for sale that is pretty clearly Tony's design. No attribution to Tony of course.
Possibly created independently? Sure. Likely? Looking less so. Given the other factors involved (timing of his auction after mine, obviously stolen logo from Rhino 3D, copy of the confused pillow, even the name) it is harder and harder to believe this isn't the case of someone just copying designs without attribution.

We all have our own views on the ethics of building and selling someone else's design and clearly we can't expect others to conform. It is unfortunate, as I would like to believe this builder just came up with the same idea I did as they claimed.

Dave

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 Post subject: Re: MP Inverted 2x2?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 7:12 pm 
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Maybe he'll "independently develop" a 24 cube or maybe a helicopter cube next.


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