Online since 2002. Over 3300 puzzles, 2600 worldwide members, and 270,000 messages.

TwistyPuzzles.com Forum

It is currently Thu Jul 24, 2014 3:09 pm

All times are UTC - 5 hours



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 141 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3
Author Message
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 2:19 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2006 10:05 am
Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota, USA
Harry: Since it is a 12 color dodecahedron (versus a 6 color) there aren't as many parities so to say. The only one I would consider a parity right now is having 2 edges flipped, very similar to how you can end up with 2 edges flipped on a pyraminx. I've found a real easy solution for the issue though. You just do a 3-cycle, do a set up move that flips one of the bad edges, do a 3 cycle, and undo the set up move (therefore flipping the other edge). More discussion of how to solve it can be found in these two links.

viewtopic.php?t=7711
viewtopic.php?t=7830

_________________
Fridrich
3x3 PB 22.63
3x3 Av 30.57

25, Male
Started cubing Oct 15 '05

Out of the game, but not completely.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 2:27 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 12:19 pm
Spoilers:


I've never come across a parity issue before on my Brilic. I don't know if it's the way you solve it or not. But I have come across these parities a lot on the Megaminx and Icosahedron Megaminx.

_________________
http://www.rockstargames.com/V/


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 2:36 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2006 10:05 am
Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota, USA
You should post you solution Reeeech. I don't know if you can consider what I was just talking about as a parity or not, but since it is considered as such on the Pyraminx, I mentioned it anyways.

_________________
Fridrich
3x3 PB 22.63
3x3 Av 30.57

25, Male
Started cubing Oct 15 '05

Out of the game, but not completely.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 2:45 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 12:19 pm
It's not my solution to give away.

I used what Aleh had included - and that was by Kersten Meier (sp?) a long time ago.


However, you can solve it pretty intuitively.

Solve the first layer corners, then edges.

Solve next layer edges, then corners.

Then the next layer corners.

Then the last layer corners.

Then place all the edges into the correct positions, then orientate correctly.

I've never had to swap just two pieces. They all fall into place quite nicely and all you have to worry about is rotating edges so it's orientated correctly.

_________________
http://www.rockstargames.com/V/


Last edited by reeeech on Mon Dec 17, 2007 3:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 3:17 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 29, 2004 7:57 am
Location: Στο Κάστρο του Αγίου Γεωργίου
[img]http://www.helm.lu/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=7463&g2_serialNumber=4" > [img]http://www.helm.lu/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=7465&g2_serialNumber=4]


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 3:31 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 12:19 pm
Thanks G for the correction.


I have the booklet at home, just not the correct spelling in my head! :P

_________________
http://www.rockstargames.com/V/


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 3:36 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2006 10:05 am
Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota, USA
Reeeech, might want to reread my post. I mentioned two edged flipped, not swapped. :)

_________________
Fridrich
3x3 PB 22.63
3x3 Av 30.57

25, Male
Started cubing Oct 15 '05

Out of the game, but not completely.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 3:56 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 12:19 pm
Noah wrote:
Reeeech, might want to reread my post. I mentioned two edged flipped, not swapped. :)



lol My post wasn't to correct you. I was just pointing out that I haven't got a parity issue (well in the normal sense). Sorry Noah, if you thought that. I just wrote spoilers because I didn't want to give that away to people who haven't played with it before.

_________________
http://www.rockstargames.com/V/


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 5:09 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2006 10:05 am
Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota, USA
Ah. Gotcha.

I wish I still had the solution you have. Someone was kind enough to mail it to me some time ago, but it seems I deleted it. (I believe it was Georges if my memory is correct).

So, your edge flipping algorithm, how many does it flip while retaining permutation?

_________________
Fridrich
3x3 PB 22.63
3x3 Av 30.57

25, Male
Started cubing Oct 15 '05

Out of the game, but not completely.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 5:11 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 12:19 pm
The edge flipping is the last thing you do.

The alg used only flips two edges and leaves everything else in tact. (Hence the very last thing you do).

_________________
http://www.rockstargames.com/V/


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 5:14 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2006 10:05 am
Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota, USA
By any chance could you write down the algorithm for that? [U, F, L, BL, R, BR for the top half (Assuming there isn't any bottom half turns)

_________________
Fridrich
3x3 PB 22.63
3x3 Av 30.57

25, Male
Started cubing Oct 15 '05

Out of the game, but not completely.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 5:17 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 12:19 pm
Sure - but it'll have to wait. I have it at home. ;)

_________________
http://www.rockstargames.com/V/


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 5:40 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 12:19 pm
I don't know....

but my copy is at home.

_________________
http://www.rockstargames.com/V/


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 9:14 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2006 10:05 am
Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota, USA
THowell wrote:
reeech,

What's the best place on the internet to find the pyraminx crystal solution?
http://twistypuzzles.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7711

If you have any questions PM me.

_________________
Fridrich
3x3 PB 22.63
3x3 Av 30.57

25, Male
Started cubing Oct 15 '05

Out of the game, but not completely.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 11:29 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 29, 2004 7:57 am
Location: Στο Κάστρο του Αγίου Γεωργίου
Here is a pdf file of Meier's solution from 1982 (Aleh's improved quality edition)


Attachments:
brilic_solution.pdf [523.33 KiB]
Downloaded 213 times
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 1:02 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 12:19 pm
Thank you G!!

I wasn't sure I had permission to do so. But you just saved me a ton. :D

Well Noah,

The alg you requested would be on page 10. I primarily just use the FIG. 12 alg... I just put the two edges you need to flip on the top (U) layer and apply.

No matter how many times I solved the Brilic, there will always be at least two edges that need flipping (orientating). So you if you come across where it's just one, your phoooked. uhm, so you'll have to take out that piece and manually flip it. This was the reason I was saying that you won't run into a weird parity issue (that you would have to swap it with another identical piece).

Perhaps if it is 10 colors (or some number that would cause two pieces to be alike) than you may run into a parity issue. But with the current 12 color scheme, I haven't run into this problem.

I wonder what Meffert's color scheme would be? He did mention the 12 colored, but hey, I'm sure in the future you'll be able to get other variations! :D

_________________
http://www.rockstargames.com/V/


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 10:06 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Oct 07, 2006 2:49 pm
Location: Pennsylvania
Thanks for that solution! I still plan on making my own, but this should really help!

As for a different color scheme: I personally hate puzzles that have repeated colors, but that's just me :)

I wonder if Cubesmith is going to start making Brillic stickers? I guess it depends on how popular the puzzle gets, and if clones get made of it, etc.

Edit: Hey, Noah, you can solve the Brillic on gelatinbrains' applet in around 10 minutes, can't you? If you get the chance, could you make a video of a solve? I'm very interested in seeing one of these things solved :)

This offer goes out to everyone else, too. I just asked Noah because I know he can solve it relatively quickly. I don't want a sped up video of an hour long solve, I'm interested in real time stuff :)

Thanks yall.

_________________
Do it.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 9:03 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2007 2:59 pm
Location: Houston, TX, USA
whether Noah makes a video or not... I think most people will end up solving the crystal in roughly the same way: corners then edges. The corners are just like megaminx corners, and the deepening of the cuts actually makes the edges EASIER to solve because a really easy (4-move) three-cycle is possible (now, it does require some interesting setup moves near the end though)

_________________
http://www.geocities.com/sxsk17/umcproject/umchome.html
My website, IT DOESN'T WORK ANYMORE but it used to be the only site with "official" guides for the Helicopter Cube, SuperX, Master Skewb, and many more! :D


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 12:12 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2001 10:09 am
Location: Great State of Washington
Just got my voucher today by email from Mefferts. A nice word document that you can print out and give to people if you want to give a gift. Says puzzles will be sent as soon as they are available.

_________________
I have 2 words for you - "Gotta Have It"
Yogi Berra


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 12:15 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2006 10:05 am
Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota, USA
I'll do better. How about I make a video solution using a real Brilic? If it's going to happen, it should happen around 27th or 28th.

_________________
Fridrich
3x3 PB 22.63
3x3 Av 30.57

25, Male
Started cubing Oct 15 '05

Out of the game, but not completely.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 2:02 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2000 9:11 pm
Location: Dubuque, IA area
I understand all the fuss over the Crystal puzzle, but why is everyone so excited about the re-release of the Megaminx and Impossiball? :?: I mean, custom-made Crystal puzzles sell for around $1000, but earlier production Megaminxs and Impossiballs are still available for a fairly reasonable price on Ebay. In fact, I think I bought my last 12-colored tiled Megaminx from Mefferts less than a couple of years ago. I do understand, however, that until now, the Impossiball was only available in 6 colors.

I was really surprised that a solution for the Crystal was written in 1982. Am I correct that the physical puzzle didn't even exists then yet? That must be hard writing a solution for a puzzle that can only be visualized without actually having one to work with. :shock:

Also, I was wondering if anyone has heard if Mefferts has any plans to release Impossiball tile sets. That might open up some additional color variations, similar to what can be done with the Dogic puzzles. I know if he sold Impossiball tile sets, I would buy them. :D

Doug M.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 2:09 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2000 9:11 pm
Location: Dubuque, IA area
I see that Meffert's site has the price for the 12-color Impossiball listed as $38 now. The first posting in this thread, however, has it listed as only $20. Have they increased their price that much since then, or was the original posting price listed incorrectly?

Doug M.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 2:24 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2006 10:05 am
Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota, USA
Doug, no there wasn't. For the history (minus the patents) of the pyraminx crystal, please scan page two for a post by me.

_________________
Fridrich
3x3 PB 22.63
3x3 Av 30.57

25, Male
Started cubing Oct 15 '05

Out of the game, but not completely.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 4:28 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2000 8:50 am
Location: chicago, IL area U.S.A
Doug M. wrote:
I see that Meffert's site has the price for the 12-color Impossiball listed as $38 now. The first posting in this thread, however, has it listed as only $20. Have they increased their price that much since then, or was the original posting price listed incorrectly?


I noticed this too. I just placed an order yesterday, it said $38, but when it went into the shopping cart, it was $20, so it's probably a glitch somewhere.

-d


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 8:10 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Oct 07, 2006 2:49 pm
Location: Pennsylvania
Noah wrote:
I'll do better. How about I make a video solution using a real Brilic? If it's going to happen, it should happen around 27th or 28th.


Of December? That would be great, if it's that early. I just wanted a chance to watch one solved before I actually got mine, it motivates me a bit :)

_________________
Do it.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 10:51 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2006 5:32 pm
Location: Bay Area, CA
Speedy McFastfast wrote:
Noah wrote:
I'll do better. How about I make a video solution using a real Brilic? If it's going to happen, it should happen around 27th or 28th.


Of December? That would be great, if it's that early. I just wanted a chance to watch one solved before I actually got mine, it motivates me a bit :)

Although reeeech and I are some of the fastest in the world (top 15 at least, I'd say...:) and that won't last long come February) neither of us are very fast so the video might be a bit long. I suppose we could skip the corners part as that can be found on any megaminx solution site.

AndrewG was quite correct about the edges, they are quite easy to move around and with setup moves you have lots of flexibility. I've kept myself from looking at the Meier solution because I came up with my own, but my edge parity flip acts on two edges next to each other, and is a sequence of four three-edge cycles, each comprising four moves so 16 moves total.

I don't know why it takes me so long to solve, I think it is the mechanics of the cuts. I just move the puzzle slower than I move my Megaminx (solved in about half the time). Perhaps I'll have time to video a solution. If so it will just be the edges for time reasons and because my corners solution is one I made up myself and no reason to confuse people with yet another Megaminx corners solution...

Dave


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2007 1:01 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2000 9:11 pm
Location: Dubuque, IA area
Does anyone know of any puzzle mods that can be made from the Pyraminx Crystal? Whenever a new puzzle shows up, it usually isn't long before someone on this forum has modified it into a different shaped puzzle or something.

Doug M.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2007 1:04 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2007 4:40 pm
Location: Canada Qc City
well, a pyraminx crystal into the shape of a buce should be nice ! crystal cube ... :P


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2007 1:10 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 29, 2004 7:57 am
Location: Στο Κάστρο του Αγίου Γεωργίου
Simon45 wrote:
well, a pyraminx crystal into the shape of a buce should be nice ! crystal cube ... :P


What is "buce"? I only know the slovenic buce meaning pumpkin.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2007 12:13 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 12:19 pm
DLitwin wrote:
I don't know why it takes me so long to solve, I think it is the mechanics of the cuts. I just move the puzzle slower than I move my Megaminx (solved in about half the time).

Dave


Not saying I abuse mine, but I think because I have already taken mine apart and see what parts can or can't pop, I'm able to push it a little bit more, knowing that I know how to put it back together again.

Playing with it many times, I know how much I have to align before it'll give. Plus, I've been solving it many times in a specific order - I start with the Yellow side as my U (top) side, so spotting pieces ahead of time has become a lot easier.


Plus - I'm a tile guy. With stickers I'm a lot more slower and careful so as not to peel them away. The tiles on the Brilic are really good quality and it feels really natural in my hands - so I'm a lot more comfortable playing with.
(I have to say, I was pretty excited when Jing told me that they are using TILES! - hopefully they'll be using the Lexan Tiles that Aleh used from Cubesmith :D)

_________________
http://www.rockstargames.com/V/


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2007 5:04 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Oct 07, 2006 2:49 pm
Location: Pennsylvania
Dave, any video you could record would be much appreciated :)

Same deal with anyone else, I am very interested in seeing this puzzle solved, whether it's on a computer sim or in real life.

_________________
Do it.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 7:55 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 7:37 pm
As you know reeeech I am opposite to you and was very dissapointed to find out they are tiled. Still, I am sure they can be hacked off so I can put some decent Skewb style stickers on them.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 11:54 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 12:19 pm
Really? I know you are a fan of stickers, but these tiles are pretty thin (well the Brilic) and doesn't feel like it makes the puzzle bigger, like the tiles on Meffert's 5x5x5 (although I don't mind those either).

Hmmm, however, the textured stickers you have used in the past would definitely be nice to play with! ;)

_________________
http://www.rockstargames.com/V/


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 12:23 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2007 4:40 pm
Location: Canada Qc City
I also prefer sticker, tiles always fall !


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 1:19 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 7:37 pm
The tiles on the Megaminx look pretty thick so I am assuming they'll be the same chunky type. I like everything to be in the same style as the original Rubik's Cube though I also like the textured Skewb stickers. It's a shame though that they dropped the textured white.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 1:33 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 12:19 pm
Simon45 wrote:
I also prefer sticker, tiles always fall !


Tony Fisher wrote:
The tiles on the Megaminx look pretty thick so I am assuming they'll be the same chunky type. I like everything to be in the same style as the original Rubik's Cube though I also like the textured Skewb stickers. It's a shame though that they dropped the textured white.


Well, I hope that the tiles Meffert's uses will be the same as the Brilic - which uses really thin Lexan materials. I've never had any of them fall off - and don't really add much thickness to the puzzle.

It's like cutting them out from really thin plastic plates (but the quality of Lexan is really good).

_________________
http://www.rockstargames.com/V/


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 1:46 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2000 9:11 pm
Location: Dubuque, IA area
It would probably best if Meffert's used tiles (preferably thin ones) rather than stickers on the Pyraminx Crystal. This is because the pieces have very acute (sharp) angles. Several puzzles have had problems in the past using stickers with very acute angles due to the sharp corners peeling. Probably the worst example of this was the Alexander's Star. (When I was looking for a used painted Alexander's Star on Ebay, I could simply look at the posted photo and tell if it was painted or had stickers because the stickers were almost always peeling at the tips. If the corners weren't peeling, it was either stickered with almost no use or the colors were painted onto the tiles.)

Doug M.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 6:18 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2007 4:20 pm
Location: England
Couldn't see this posted elsewhere, but the Megaminx is now available. :D

On the subject of the Pyraminx Crystal, I really like the look of this puzzle, but it's going to set me back around £19 (British). Given that that blows the customs limit there's a very real possibility that I'll get customs and post office charges for this, bringing the total cost to £30. :shock:

My question is, is it worth it? I'm not a collector or anything, but I do like different puzzles. How hard is it to solve if compared with a Square1?

Thanks


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 6:27 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2005 12:12 pm
Location: NY, USA
I made a sort of slow video on the gelatinbrain simulator using my solution. It's mostly megaminx corners and 4-move commutators for edges, so it shouldn't be too hard to see what's going on. I understand if you still want a real video, though.

_________________
My official times
My youtube
Puzzle Solving Service! - a puzzle that has never been scrambled and solved has been wasted.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 9:37 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2006 12:40 pm
Location: Marske-By-The-Sea, UK
statto wrote:
On the subject of the Pyraminx Crystal, I really like the look of this puzzle, but it's going to set me back around £19 (British). Given that that blows the customs limit there's a very real possibility that I'll get customs and post office charges for this, bringing the total cost to £30. :shock:

Really?

I spent about £60 on Mefferts.com last year and had no customs charges incurred.

_________________
List of Speedcubing methods
Speedcubing tutorial

@.=split(//,"J huhesartc kPaeenrro,lt");do{print$.[$_];$_=($_+3)%25;}while($_!=0);


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 11:09 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2007 4:20 pm
Location: England
Pembo wrote:
statto wrote:
On the subject of the Pyraminx Crystal, I really like the look of this puzzle, but it's going to set me back around £19 (British). Given that that blows the customs limit there's a very real possibility that I'll get customs and post office charges for this, bringing the total cost to £30. :shock:

Really?

I spent about £60 on Mefferts.com last year and had no customs charges incurred.


It depends on how much any one charge is. The law states that anyone shipping goods here has to display its value on the packaging. If it's equivalent to more than £18 then Her Majesty's Customs and Excise have a legal right to open it to see what it is. If it's something they can charge tax for they do (at the moment I think it's 22.5%). Then, because they've seized it, they get Royal Mail to ship it the rest of the way. There's a flat fee of £8 for this.

This doesn't always happen, as Customs don't have the manpower to open every package that comes into the country that's over the limit; but as a rule of thumb, I tend to factor the charges in to any overseas deliveries, as it could easily happen (especially if buying from bigger retailers, like amazon.com).


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 141 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: rayray_2561 and 11 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  

Forum powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group