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 Post subject: Mass-Produced 3x3x3 Mods, KO or Not?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 8:36 am 
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Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 12:50 pm
Recently, I've been seeing lots of 3x3x3 shape mods being mass produced by KO companies. Some of these Shape mods are more universal than others(HD, Axis), While others are more 3x3x3 specific(Hexagonal Prism, Master Pyramorphinx). Would you call these KO Puzzles? Would you buy these?


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 Post subject: Re: Mass-Produced 3x3x3 Mods, KO or Not?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 8:38 am 
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Joined: Sun May 17, 2009 1:33 pm
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POST EDITED.

By the forum's definition of KO (Correct me if I'm wrong: if the original inventor has not said it's OK to produce, and/or if it's covered by active patent), I do not believe that the Hex dipyramid, the MasterMorphinx, the Case cube or the Axis cube should be considered KO.

The Hex Dip, well, it's straightforward. I don't even think there is one inventor for it. Because no one entity can claim credit for it, well, it's not violating anything, is it? (the company could have easily have come up with it independantly, even though I highly doubt this)

the MasterMorphinx: No one seemed to have any trouble when Meffert made it. I'm interested to know, did M. Meffert actually credit anyone with the design? Unlike his other puzzles designed by others (Fisher cube, Gear cube) this doesn't actually bear anyone's name. And again, I believe multiple people came up with it independantly.

the Case cube? I've seen people get outraged over the Fisher cube, the Windmill cube, the KO Mirror blocks, but never have I ever seen one person say 'They stole <x>'s idea for the Case cube!' who invented the Case cube in the first place?? :?:

The Axis cube: seriously, who invented this? (asked from an 'I don't know' point of view.)

I can certainly see why the Hex prism would be considered KO; after all, I believe only 1 person came up with the concept, rebuilt by many others. But for the other above puzzles, I really don't think any one person can claim right over them.

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Last edited by Monopoly on Thu Aug 12, 2010 1:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Mass-Produced 3x3x3 Mods, KO or Not?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 8:50 am 
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Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2008 1:47 am
Location: near Utrecht, Netherlands
Patents are not the only form of intellectual property. There are many more laws regarding copying:
- Copyright
- Design right (EU)
- Trademark

So just because there is no patent you can't go about saying a puzzle is non-KO.

I don't think this discussion will add much to the previous discussions. Some of these 3x3x3 mods are OK, others are clear infringements. The simple truth is these puzzles are being made by companies that don't respect IP.

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 Post subject: Re: Mass-Produced 3x3x3 Mods, KO or Not?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 12:48 pm 
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Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2006 5:32 pm
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Arkanoid0 wrote:
Recently, I've been seeing lots of 3x3x3 shape mods being mass produced by KO companies. Some of these Shape mods are more universal than others(HD, Axis), While others are more 3x3x3 specific(Hexagonal Prism, Master Pyramorphinx). Would you call these KO Puzzles? Would you buy these?
Not sure what you mean by "HD". The Axis cube and Hexagonal Prism were designed by puzzlemaster42 (Adam Cowan). He has stated he was not bothered by people making and selling hand built versions of his design (e.g. Smaz is fine) but does not authorize mass production of his designs without his consent.

The master pyramorphix (Pyramorphix, rounded half truncated, etc.) has been designed and built by more than one builder but the particular design produced by Meffert has been directly copied. I would not view this design in general to be protected but direct copies of a particular instance of this general design can be considered KO.

Monopoly wrote:
why would any of these be KO? none of the puzzles have patents :/
Somewhat a repeat of what Tom said but I figure I will add the weight of a moderator:

As it seems you have been a member since mid 2009 you can't have missed the countless KO discussions or this site's definition of KO. It has been explained many times why a puzzle without a patent can be called KO and very clearly violates our policy. I strongly suggest you re-read our policies and discussion around them before making posts like this that offer nothing new and serve only to confuse.

You are of course free to hold your own opinions on the matter but on this board we have a standard of respecting designers. Your own definition of "Knock Off" is your business but not relevant to to the use of the term on this forum.


Dave

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 Post subject: Re: Mass-Produced 3x3x3 Mods, KO or Not?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 1:11 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 12:50 pm
The reason I was asking kinda goes back to the puzzle definitions thread, was that if it had the same mechanism, which in this case is considered public property, but a different overall look, is it the same puzzle? After all, one could argue that a sticker mod, like a sudocube, is a completely different puzzle in the same way that a shape mod is different from a regular 3x3x3.


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 Post subject: Re: Mass-Produced 3x3x3 Mods, KO or Not?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 12:19 am 
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Location: Bay Area, CA
Arkanoid0 wrote:
The reason I was asking kinda goes back to the puzzle definitions thread, was that if it had the same mechanism, which in this case is considered public property, but a different overall look, is it the same puzzle? After all, one could argue that a sticker mod, like a sudocube, is a completely different puzzle in the same way that a shape mod is different from a regular 3x3x3.
Shape mods are unique work and their design can often be beautiful and complex. Others may be trivial. The degree to which one is considered an open design vs. an attributed protected design is subjective and something I suppose that falls in my lap. The easy rule is to look at who first did it and if they have taken any steps to protect it as their own. If it has been done independently by many people it is hard to claim it is owned by any one person. The Square-2 is an example of a fairly obvious design created by many people independently and therefore an open design.

Dave

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