Online since 2002. Over 3300 puzzles, 2600 worldwide members, and 270,000 messages.

TwistyPuzzles.com Forum

It is currently Wed Apr 16, 2014 9:02 am

All times are UTC - 5 hours



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 52 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Puzzle Definitions
PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 3:47 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jun 13, 2010 1:00 am
Location: Colorado
This first post will be updated as new definitions are agreed upon. Things that need definitions are sliding and fudging along with others.


Cuboid
Doctrine twisty puzzle with nxmxo dimensions.

V-Cubes
Higher order puzzles that allowed the creation of the 6x6x6 and 7x7x7.

Mefferts
Website offering twisty puzzles and other puzzles.

Custom Puzzles
Puzzles made by a builder, not a factory.

Shapeways
3D printing service that allows rapid prototyping of custom puzzles.

WSF
Wight Strong & Flexible 3D printing material from Shapeways.

Corner Turning
Any puzzle that can rotate pieces around a corner.

Edge Turning
Any puzzle that can rotate pieces around an edge.

Face Turning
Any puzzle that can rotate pieces around a face.

Bandaged
A puzzle that is created by joining together pieces from another puzzle.

Parent Jumbling Puzzle
A jumbling puzzle that cannot be bandaged any more and still exist in a state with all cuts un blocked.

Jumble Factor
The amount of complete unbandages to the parent jumbling puzzle.

Fudging
Making a puzzle have a jumble factor of infinity so that it is non bandaged.

Mechanical Sliding
Moving along a mechanical track. Sometimes into a void.

Sliding Movement
Moving pieces along a path without a central point.

DIY
Do It Yourself

Deep Cut
Any cut that bisects the sphere version of the puzzle.

Jumbeable
A puzzle that can not be unbandaged because an infinite amount of cuts would be needed to extend all cuts.

Rational Jumbling
When rational degrees are used to jumble a puzzle.

Irrational Jumbling
When irrational degrees are used to jumble a puzzle.

Shape-Shifting
The ability of a puzzle to change shape.

_________________
My Shapeways Shop
My YouTube Videos
My Museum Puzzles


Last edited by PuzzleMaster6262 on Wed Jul 14, 2010 3:26 pm, edited 7 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Puzzle Definitions
PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 3:55 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jul 11, 2009 1:09 pm
Location: My House
Did you mean to do 'post reply' but accidentally click 'new topic'?

Alex

_________________
If I had £1,000,000 more, I'd be a Millionaire

YouTube Account: Cubiksrube113


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Puzzle Definitions
PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 3:59 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jun 13, 2010 1:00 am
Location: Colorado
No. I just didn't have time to add already agreed upon definitions. :lol:

_________________
My Shapeways Shop
My YouTube Videos
My Museum Puzzles


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Puzzle Definitions
PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 4:05 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2010 12:15 pm
Location: Sandnes, Norway
Even though I bet everyone on this forum know the meaning of it, you could probably add shape-shifting.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Puzzle Definitions
PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 4:18 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 13, 2009 4:58 pm
Location: Vancouver, Washington
Here's Bram's original post with his definition of jumbling. It's nice because he steps you through all the classes leading up to jumbling.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=11126&p=171260#p171260

_________________
Real name: Landon Kryger


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Puzzle Definitions
PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 5:00 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2010 12:15 pm
Location: Sandnes, Norway
Might be a little off the topic, but I really appreciate that you took the time to make this thread, as I've been slightly confused as to how I should define jumbling, seeing as I didn't (don't) take part in the thread dedicated to jumbling puzzles. And I also think this will be a good place to turn for others in similar situations in the future, since this will be a lot more organized place to get the info you need, rather than to have to search through multiple threads to find what you're looking for.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Puzzle Definitions
PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 11:30 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2004 7:03 am
Location: Koblenz, Germany
This definition of deepcut:
viewtopic.php?p=181881#p181881

The definition of doctrinaire.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Puzzle Definitions
PostPosted: Sat Jul 10, 2010 11:15 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jun 13, 2010 1:00 am
Location: Colorado
The first post has been expanded. All things related to puzzles can go in this list.

_________________
My Shapeways Shop
My YouTube Videos
My Museum Puzzles


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Puzzle Definitions
PostPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2010 9:27 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 16, 2000 3:17 pm
Location: Hong Kong
Not to be funny, but just wondering how this adds to the community at large.

If I understand all these terms as they are without confusion, I'm wondering why we need a thread for this. I will leave it up to higher powers than my self to determine....

Or maybe this is Just Rox on a puzzle high! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

_________________
Rox's Rambling Blog
Katsmom's Puzzling Videos


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Puzzle Definitions
PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 2:55 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2007 6:50 am
Location: Colorado, US
Here's something I've been wondering: Is the original pyraminx a face-turning puzzle or a corner-turning puzzle? Based on my understanding of these terms, I could argue either way. Do these definitions (corner-turning, face-turning, edge-turning) even apply to puzzles that do not have faces opposite each other?

Also, what about shape mods? For example, the original 3x3x3 is a face-turning puzzle. But is the master pyramorphix an edge-turning puzzle, or is it still a face-turning puzzle? I would say that it is an edge-turning puzzle, since I think that the definition of what constitutes a face depends on the exterior shape rather than the internal mechanism.

_________________
“What do you mean? Do you wish me a good morning, or mean that it is a good morning whether I want it or not; or that you feel good on this morning; or that it is a morning to be good on?”


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Puzzle Definitions
PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 2:59 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 12:50 pm
EDIT 2: Pyraminx is corner turning, because the tips rotate, and the pieces connected to the core are located in the corners.

EDIT:I would say that shape-mod definitions depend on the final shape, but that still leaves the question of puzzles line an axis or greenhill cube.


Last edited by Arkanoid0 on Wed Jul 14, 2010 3:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Puzzle Definitions
PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 3:03 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jun 13, 2010 1:00 am
Location: Colorado
Pyraminx is deep cut so I would consider it both face turning and corner turning.
Thank you for reminding me about this topic. I have some work to do with it :lol:

_________________
My Shapeways Shop
My YouTube Videos
My Museum Puzzles


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Puzzle Definitions
PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 3:06 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2007 6:50 am
Location: Colorado, US
Arkanoid0 wrote:
Pyraminx is corner turning, because the tips rotate.


OK, what about Jing's Pyraminx? Face-turning or corner-turning?

_________________
“What do you mean? Do you wish me a good morning, or mean that it is a good morning whether I want it or not; or that you feel good on this morning; or that it is a morning to be good on?”


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Puzzle Definitions
PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 3:11 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 12:50 pm
rickssg wrote:
Arkanoid0 wrote:
Pyraminx is corner turning, because the tips rotate.


OK, what about Jing's Pyraminx? Face-turning or corner-turning?


If you refer to my edit above, face, because the pieces connected to the core are in the center of a face.(Edit: if i understand the mech correctly)


Last edited by Arkanoid0 on Wed Jul 14, 2010 3:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Puzzle Definitions
PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 3:11 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2007 6:50 am
Location: Colorado, US
PuzzleMaster6262 wrote:
Pyraminx is deep cut so I would consider it both face turning and corner turning.


Skewb is deep cut, but clearly corner-turning. Rubik's 2x2x2 is deep cut, but clearly face-turning.

You're Welcome.

_________________
“What do you mean? Do you wish me a good morning, or mean that it is a good morning whether I want it or not; or that you feel good on this morning; or that it is a morning to be good on?”


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Puzzle Definitions
PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 3:12 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 13, 2009 4:58 pm
Location: Vancouver, Washington
rickssg wrote:
Here's something I've been wondering: Is the original pyraminx a face-turning puzzle or a corner-turning puzzle?

My answer: Yes, it's both.

_________________
Real name: Landon Kryger


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Puzzle Definitions
PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 3:18 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2007 6:50 am
Location: Colorado, US
Arkanoid0 wrote:
rickssg wrote:
Arkanoid0 wrote:
Pyraminx is corner turning, because the tips rotate.


OK, what about Jing's Pyraminx? Face-turning or corner-turning?


If you refer to my edit above, face, because the pieces connected to the core are in the center of a face.(Edit: if i understand the mech correctly)


Good point, but you could make a Jing's Pyraminx by connecting the corners to the core rather than the face centers, and the puzzle would behave in exactly the same manner as the one with face centers connected to the core. Would one puzzle then be face-turning and the other corner-turning, despite the fact that both behave identically? (And you are correct; the face centers are connected to the core on the mass-produced Jing's Pyraminx)

(EDIT: the more I think about this, the more I agree with GuiltyBystander. A puzzle can be both face-turning and corner-turning)

_________________
“What do you mean? Do you wish me a good morning, or mean that it is a good morning whether I want it or not; or that you feel good on this morning; or that it is a morning to be good on?”


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Puzzle Definitions
PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 3:28 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 12:50 pm
The debate between face and center turning is interesting because it only applies to tetrahedron shaped puzzles. I say that tetrahedron puzzles hould be classified edge-turning, and face/corner turning.

EDIT: Face-turning not egde-turning, DUH!


Last edited by Arkanoid0 on Thu Jul 15, 2010 3:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Puzzle Definitions
PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 3:44 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2007 6:50 am
Location: Colorado, US
Arkanoid0 wrote:
The debate between face and center turning is interesting because it only applies to tetrahedron shaped puzzles. I say that tetrahedron puzzles hould be classified edge-turning, and edge/corner turning.


What about the Fisher's Cube?

_________________
“What do you mean? Do you wish me a good morning, or mean that it is a good morning whether I want it or not; or that you feel good on this morning; or that it is a morning to be good on?”


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Puzzle Definitions
PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 3:46 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 12:50 pm
cube != tetrahedron


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Puzzle Definitions
PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 4:03 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2008 1:47 am
Location: near Utrecht, Netherlands
rickssg wrote:
What about the Fisher's Cube?
You might say it is a bandaged edge and face turning puzzle but you might then start asking how you would classify (in terms of ....-turning) the ghost cube or even a megaminx ball.

In cases where it is obvious (2x2x2: deep cut face turning cube) the use of ....-turning is fine but when you're talking about defining how a puzzle turns you should use symmetries rather than anything else. That way you could classify a Fisher Cube as having octahedral turning.

_________________
Tom's Shapeways Puzzle Shop - your order from my shop includes free stickers!
Tom's Puzzle Website


Buy my mass produced puzzles at Mefferts:
- 4x4x6 Cuboid for just $38
- Curvy Copter for just $18
- 3x4x5 Cuboid for just $34


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Puzzle Definitions
PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 5:24 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jun 26, 2010 12:06 pm
What about the term "NIB" on cube4you.com?

_________________
~cubeguy314~


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Puzzle Definitions
PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 5:56 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2010 3:21 pm
Location: Earth
cubeguy314 wrote:
What about the term "NIB" on cube4you.com?


I think it means "New in box".

_________________
You just lost the game.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Puzzle Definitions
PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 7:10 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 24, 2009 6:56 am
This might be more helpful as a webpage rather than a topic, but there's plenty more definitions that would be useful. I saw a cuber's dictionary once, but I think it was more speedcubing related...


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Puzzle Definitions
PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 6:56 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2007 7:43 pm
Location: Shelby Township, MI. USA
PuzzleMaster6262 wrote:
WSF
Wight Strong & Flexible 3D printing material from Shapeways.
This should be "White Strong & Flexible"


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Puzzle Definitions
PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 11:33 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2007 3:14 pm
Location: Orange County, CA
Also, corner-turning is better described as vertex-turning.

I find the definition of "Fudging" confusing.

_________________
-Garrett


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Puzzle Definitions
PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 12:05 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jul 11, 2009 1:09 pm
Location: My House
PuzzleMaster6262 wrote:
Bandaged
A puzzle that is created by joining together pieces from another puzzle.

I think that this needs to be reworded - it sounds like it means, for example, gluing a 3x3x3 corner to a 3x3x3 edge and calling it a puzzle. :?

Alex

_________________
If I had £1,000,000 more, I'd be a Millionaire

YouTube Account: Cubiksrube113


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Puzzle Definitions
PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 12:24 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 12:50 pm
APJ wrote:
PuzzleMaster6262 wrote:
Bandaged
A puzzle that is created by joining together pieces from another puzzle.

I think that this needs to be reworded - it sounds like it means, for example, gluing a 3x3x3 corner to a 3x3x3 edge and calling it a puzzle. :?

Alex

At first I thought "exactly!" but then i realized what you meant. How about "The process of attaching adjacent pieces of a puzzle, to restrict movement on certain axes."


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Puzzle Definitions
PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 12:39 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2004 7:03 am
Location: Koblenz, Germany
A Fisher cube is a faceturning hexahedron or a cornerturning octahedron or an edgeturning tetrahedron all at once because it has the same axis system.
A helicopter cube is a edgeturning hexahedron, a edgeturning octahedron or a faceturning rhombic dodecahedron all at once because it has the same axis system.
Ignore the shape! The geometry matters.
PuzzleMaster6262 wrote:
Pyraminx is deep cut so I would consider it both face turning and corner turning.
Not according to your own definition stated above. Not according to the definition I linked to, as well.
katsmom wrote:
Not to be funny, but just wondering how this adds to the community at large.
...
Yesterday I would have said you are correct but this recent discussion convinced me differently. The repeated confusion about "jumbling puzzles" tells me that at least some of the definitions are worth to be on the list.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Puzzle Definitions
PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 1:19 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2007 6:50 am
Location: Colorado, US
Andreas Nortmann wrote:
Ignore the shape! The geometry matters.


But isn't the shape part of the geometry? After all, "tetrahedron", "dodecahedron" and the like are geometric terms. And doesn't it seem a little silly to call a Fisher Cube an octahedron when it clearly has six faces rather than eight?

Also, if we ignore the shape, as you suggest, then the terms edge-turning, face-turning and vertex-turning no longer have any meaning, since edge, face, and vertex are all properties of the shape.

_________________
“What do you mean? Do you wish me a good morning, or mean that it is a good morning whether I want it or not; or that you feel good on this morning; or that it is a morning to be good on?”


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Puzzle Definitions
PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 1:41 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 7:55 pm
Location: Montana
rickssg wrote:
Andreas Nortmann wrote:
Ignore the shape! The geometry matters.

But isn't the shape part of the geometry?

I believe Andreas is referring to the mechanical geometry. The external appearance really should make a Ghost Cube different from a Greenhill cube. The geometry that matters is the core, it's arms, and how the pieces interact with the core and each other.

PuzzleMaster6262 wrote:
V-Cubes
Higher order puzzles that allowed the creation of the 6x6x6 and 7x7x7

This term should be:
V-Mech
The universal mechanism that allows any desired number layers to be added to a puzzle of any regular polyhedron

PuzzleMaster6262 wrote:
Bandaged
A puzzle that is created by joining together pieces from another puzzle.

It can be better worded:
Bandaged
A puzzle whose external appearance limits otherwise possible turns.

_________________
Andreas Nortmann wrote:
Things like this are illegal.
If not I will pass an appropriate law.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Puzzle Definitions
PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 3:23 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 13, 2009 4:58 pm
Location: Vancouver, Washington
I think Bram got bandaging right the first time. Seriously, his post lays out doctrinaire, bandaged, and jumbling quite nicely.

Bram wrote:
A bandage puzzle is a non-doctrinaire one where by cutting the pieces into smaller parts it's possible to transform it into a doctrinaire puzzle.

_________________
Real name: Landon Kryger


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Puzzle Definitions
PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 8:36 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2004 7:03 am
Location: Koblenz, Germany
Rentlix wrote:
I believe Andreas is referring to the mechanical geometry. The external appearance really should make a Ghost Cube different from a Greenhill cube. The geometry that matters is the core, it's arms, and how the pieces interact with the core and each other.

Correct.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Puzzle Definitions
PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 9:27 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2010 12:15 pm
Location: Sandnes, Norway
Rentlix wrote:
This term should be:
V-MechThe universal mechanism that allows any desired number layers to be added to a puzzle of any regular polyhedron
I agree. Seeing as V-Cubes aren't something that could be defined as a puzzle definition compared to what the other definitions listed in this thread are. For instants we have jumbling and its variants and shape-shifting, which leads me to believe that Rentlix's term is more appropriate, seeing as the V-Cube mechanism easily could fit in this category, but V-Cubes as a specific cubing brand only would not. Unless I misunderstood the point of this thread and the definitions in it.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Puzzle Definitions
PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 9:47 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jul 11, 2009 1:09 pm
Location: My House
Katten wrote:
Rentlix wrote:
This term should be:
V-MechThe universal mechanism that allows any desired number layers to be added to a puzzle of any regular polyhedron
I agree. Seeing as V-Cubes aren't something that could be defined as a puzzle definition ...................V-Cubes.....specific cubing brand only would not.

I agree, that's what I thought (same with Meffert's) but I didn't make a point. However, I do not think that specific brand names are at all relevant.

Alex

_________________
If I had £1,000,000 more, I'd be a Millionaire

YouTube Account: Cubiksrube113


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Puzzle Definitions
PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 10:01 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2010 12:15 pm
Location: Sandnes, Norway
APJ wrote:
However, I do not think that specific brand names are at all relevant.
That's my general opinion as well. But in the case of the V-Cube mechanism, I find it to be relevant, as it is a unique mechanism which is most accurately described as a V-Cube mechanism.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Puzzle Definitions
PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 10:18 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2006 5:32 pm
Location: Bay Area, CA
Rentlix wrote:
V-Mech
The universal mechanism that allows any desired number layers to be added to a puzzle of any regular polyhedron
Verdes stopped at 11x11x11 for a reason so "any desired number layers" is a bit broad. Going by the mechanism description of "spherical shells and conical cuts" is perhaps better, but doesn't quite capture features like overhanging centers. Also, few people consider the "click" implementation of even numbered cubes the "Verdes Mech" but it of course is, like it or not.

Dave

_________________
Image
LitwinPuzzles.com has info on my puzzles.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Puzzle Definitions
PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 10:53 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2010 12:15 pm
Location: Sandnes, Norway
DLitwin wrote:
Verdes stopped at 11x11x11 for a reason so "any desired number layers" is a bit broad.
You might be right, that part in his definition suggestion is maybe a little too broad if you take into account that Verdes stopped at 11x11x11. But - theoretically, you could add any desired number layers to a polyhedron. But theory and practice are often too vastly different things. But I still think it is close to an acceptable definition, but hey, discussing our thoughts on these kinds of definitions is what this thread is for :D So I think with a little bit of input from other members, the V-Mech definition is ready to be written as precisely as possible.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Puzzle Definitions
PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 11:09 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2008 1:47 am
Location: near Utrecht, Netherlands
The V-mech is definitely not as broad as the definition suggests. It can't make a two-layered dodecahedron (pentultimate), for example.

_________________
Tom's Shapeways Puzzle Shop - your order from my shop includes free stickers!
Tom's Puzzle Website


Buy my mass produced puzzles at Mefferts:
- 4x4x6 Cuboid for just $38
- Curvy Copter for just $18
- 3x4x5 Cuboid for just $34


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Puzzle Definitions
PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 11:23 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2010 12:15 pm
Location: Sandnes, Norway
Then what if it were to say cube instead of polyhedron? Of course I only thought of that when I wrote those posts, but of course you're right. Polyhedron does not only include cubic puzzles. My bad.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Puzzle Definitions
PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 11:39 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jul 11, 2009 1:09 pm
Location: My House
Katten wrote:
Then what if it were to say cube instead of polyhedron? Of course I only thought of that when I wrote those posts, but of course you're right. Polyhedron does not only include cubic puzzles. My bad.

Well it's not just for cubes is it? Isn't the Teraminx based on the same mechanism? I don't think that one single word could be used. :?

Alex

_________________
If I had £1,000,000 more, I'd be a Millionaire

YouTube Account: Cubiksrube113


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Puzzle Definitions
PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 11:41 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2007 6:50 am
Location: Colorado, US
Rentlix wrote:
I believe Andreas is referring to the mechanical geometry. The external appearance really should make a Ghost Cube different from a Greenhill cube. The geometry that matters is the core, it's arms, and how the pieces interact with the core and each other.
I see your point, but I still think that for the definitions of face-turning, edge-turning, and vertex-turning, the exterior shape matters. This is because the faces, edges, and vertices are all aspects of the exterior shape, and not the mechanism. No one would argue that a Master Pyramorphix is anything other than a tetrahedron (I think). No one would argue that a 3x3x3 cube is anything other than face-turning. But I don't think it's reasonable to say that the Master Pyramorphix is a face-turning puzzle simply based on the fact that it shares a mech with the 3x3x3.

So I disagree with the following statement:
Andreas Nortmann wrote:
A Fisher cube is a faceturning hexahedron or a cornerturning octahedron or an edgeturning tetrahedron all at once because it has the same axis system.
The Fisher Cube is not an octahedron or a tetrahedron. I think it would be more accurate to say that a 6-arm spider mech can be used to create a face-turning hexahedron or a corner-turning octahedron or an edge-turning tetrahedron. But to say that any puzzle with this mech is all of them at once is simply not true.

Modifying the shape does not change the mechanics, but it has the potential to alter the challenge for solving the puzzle. You can create parity errors on a Fisher Cube because four of the face centers (edges on the 3x3x3) can be flipped 180 degrees and still look correct. You don't have to worry about center orientation on a 3x3x3, but you do have to worry about the orientation of the corresponding pieces on a Master Pyramorphix.

Again, my main point is that I think that the definitions of *-turning are not independent of the exterior shape of the puzzle.

_________________
“What do you mean? Do you wish me a good morning, or mean that it is a good morning whether I want it or not; or that you feel good on this morning; or that it is a morning to be good on?”


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Puzzle Definitions
PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 11:49 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2010 12:15 pm
Location: Sandnes, Norway
I have no idea, seeing as I don't own a Teraminx and have never used one. But if that's the case, not just one word could be used to describe it :shock: Funny that this definition is so tricky. Maybe it should say that it can be used in some polyhedra? But then again, that would be just like saying "regular" which is in Rentlix's original post, and that would again mean that it wouldn't be accurate enough. Unless we all agree on what the meaning of a regular polyhedron is.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Puzzle Definitions
PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 1:08 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2007 6:50 am
Location: Colorado, US
Katten wrote:
Unless we all agree on what the meaning of a regular polyhedron is.


"Regular Polyhedron" already has a widely accepted definition:

A regular polyhedron is a polyhedron whose faces are congruent regular polygons which are assembled in the same way around each vertex. A regular polygon is a polygon which is equiangular (all angles are equal in measure) and equilateral (all sides have the same length).

_________________
“What do you mean? Do you wish me a good morning, or mean that it is a good morning whether I want it or not; or that you feel good on this morning; or that it is a morning to be good on?”


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Puzzle Definitions
PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 1:27 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2007 6:50 am
Location: Colorado, US
Here is a very specific definition for V-mech:

The mechanism invented by Greek Engineer Panagiotis Verdes which allows for creating cubic puzzles of up to 11 layers and which has been successfully adapted for other regular polyhedra.

I know that this mech has been successfully adapted to a dodecahedron (teraminx) and to a tetrahedron (Drewseph's Royal Tetrahedron). That only leaves the octahedron and icosahedron for regular convex polyhedra. I see no reason why this mech would not work for these two, and it may also work for some irregular polyhedra. That's why my definition focuses on what has been done rather than what could be done.

_________________
“What do you mean? Do you wish me a good morning, or mean that it is a good morning whether I want it or not; or that you feel good on this morning; or that it is a morning to be good on?”


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Puzzle Definitions
PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 4:33 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2004 7:03 am
Location: Koblenz, Germany
rickssg wrote:
Again, my main point is that I think that the definitions of *-turning are not independent of the exterior shape of the puzzle.
I would never argue that a Mastermorphix has the shape of a tetrahedron. Classifying it as a "faceturning hexahedron" is just the short form of "puzzle with the axis system of the faceturning hexahedron".
I hope I have never used the term x-turning alone. As far as I know I have always included the term hexahedron (or other solids) so the underlying axis system was made clear.

According to the definitions written down in the first post the Fisher cube is an edgeturning and a faceturning puzzle. Difficult enough for a puzzle like the Fisher cube. I own two types of "cornerturning rhombic dodecahedrons" (according to your definition, I hope) but both have different axis systems. And how to describe the Square Pyramid, viewtopic.php?f=15&t=11580 ?
I plead for ignoring the shape and include all possible shapes mods.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Puzzle Definitions
PostPosted: Sat Jul 17, 2010 6:56 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2006 5:32 pm
Location: Bay Area, CA
rickssg wrote:
That's why my definition focuses on what has been done rather than what could be done.
That doesn't describe a mechanism though, just a set of puzzles that use it. What makes you include some puzzles in this and exclude others? Presumably that is the description of the mechanism.

What I offered above (spherical shells, conical cuts and overhanging centers) is a pretty decent description that covers everything in that list and more that, if created, would certainly be considered to use the Verdes mechanism. These are the things that you can also use to rule out other mechanisms: The Rubik's and EastSheen 5x5x5 differ from the Verdes in that they don't have these features. Neither does the original TBTTyler v1 Gigaminx.

Dave

_________________
Image
LitwinPuzzles.com has info on my puzzles.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Puzzle Definitions
PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 10:57 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2007 6:50 am
Location: Colorado, US
DLitwin wrote:
That doesn't describe a mechanism though, just a set of puzzles that use it.

You have a point that examples don't define something, but it is also common for dictionaries to include examples to clarify definitions (and they don't include all possible examples). That's all I was trying to do. I guess if we absolutely wanted the most technically accurate definition of the Verdes mech, it would be a link to the patent.

Andreas Nortmann wrote:
Classifying it as a "faceturning hexahedron" is just the short form of "puzzle with the axis system of the faceturning hexahedron".

To me, "puzzle with the axis system of the faceturning hexahedron" is NOT the same as saying that a puzzle IS a "faceturning hexahedron". You say it is shorthand. I say it is misleading, or at least confusing.

As for a definition based on a mechanism that includes all possible shape mods, you know that any list that claims "all possible" will never be complete.

_________________
“What do you mean? Do you wish me a good morning, or mean that it is a good morning whether I want it or not; or that you feel good on this morning; or that it is a morning to be good on?”


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Puzzle Definitions
PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 11:37 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 7:55 pm
Location: Montana
rickssg wrote:
but it is also common for dictionaries to include examples to clarify definitions (and they don't include all possible examples)
...
As for a definition based on a mechanism that includes all possible shape mods, you know that any list that claims "all possible" will never be complete.

Putting two and two together. A list of all possible shape mods is never going to be complete, but as you have stated, it is common to use just some examples to clarify. The axis system is what Andreas is talking about, but external shape is what you're talking about. The way Andreas is defining the terms, the arms of the core and how they interact with the puzzle is what makes the puzzle.

Tell me this is the same thing as this.

_________________
Andreas Nortmann wrote:
Things like this are illegal.
If not I will pass an appropriate law.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Puzzle Definitions
PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 12:46 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 12:50 pm
Maybe we should classify the puzzle, regardless of external shape, by its japp's sphere, but with different notation:
# of axes,
axis1: location (degrees from 0, on plane yz, degrees from 0, on plane xz,degrees from 0, on plane xy)(basically, on a 333, the U center is yz=0 xz=0 xy=origin, F center is yz=origin xz=-90 xy=180 and R center is yz=90 xz=origin xy=90), Arc measure(degrees)(for a 333, all axis are at a 70 degree angle), from the axis to the cut.
axis2:ditto
Etc., for all axis.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 52 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  

Forum powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group