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 Post subject: A good current 11x11x11
PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 9:12 pm 
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I am hoping for A V-cube 11 but I was curious has anyone had experience with this co?

LINK REMOVED

Does anyone make a good 11x11 or 9x9 ? or is it just a bad idea in general to buy these KO's?


Last edited by Jeh on Mon May 24, 2010 10:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: A good current 11x11x11
PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 9:21 pm 
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Linking to KOs is against the rules, you might want to edit it out of your post.

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 Post subject: Re: A good current 11x11x11
PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 9:39 pm 
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Ditto what theVDude wrote.

Jeh, since this is your first post, I'm going to type this with gentle fingers.

Please, please, PLEASE read the forum rules before you post. If you're not sure about a KO link, PM a forum admin first. And check out this KO thread if you still want to write about KO's.

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Last edited by ptrsdboy on Mon May 24, 2010 9:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: A good current 11x11x11
PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 9:40 pm 
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Location: Orangevale, CA
Jeh wrote:
is it just a bad idea in general to buy these KO's?

Yup.

End of discussion.


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 Post subject: Re: A good current 11x11x11
PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 10:21 pm 
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blizzard_kb wrote:
Ditto what theVDude wrote.

Jeh, since this is your first post, I'm going to type this with gentle fingers.

Please, please, PLEASE read the forum rules before you post. If you're not sure about a KO link, PM a forum admin first. And check out this KO thread if you still want to write about KO's.


Thanks Fella's.

I did look thru the rules and searched a bit but we all know how that works.

Ive been into puzzles on and off a long time. I still have my original Rubiks 3x3. :D from 1980. Sometimes its just easier to ask than hunt thru 150k + threads that are years old.

I guess I will just have to wait for V-Cube


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 Post subject: Re: A good current 11x11x11
PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 11:20 pm 
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Thanks guys for making the right recommendations and edits :)

Dave

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 Post subject: Re: A good current 11x11x11
PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 1:13 pm 
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Beyond the fact that they are KOs (which should be the prime factor in decision making), they are junk (at least the 9x9 was when I tried it). The one that I played with in Hong Kong was like turning broken glass and seemed like it would explode with the slightest provocation. There exists a picture of me writing words on a 9x9, and that took me a good 1/2 hour to do. Bottom line: wait for Verdes. He'll come up with something good within a reasonable amount of time.

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 Post subject: Re: A good current 11x11x11
PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 3:06 pm 
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First off I really disagree with referring to the 9x9x9s and 11x11x11s coming from China as "knock offs". For them to be a "knock off" an original has to exist for them to be copied from. To my knowledge no original V-Cube 9s or 11s exist with the exception of prototypes which would not have been available for whoever designed and built these. What they appear to be are violations of the V-Cube patent. I use the word “appear” because I am not a patent attorney and to my knowledge these have not been challenged in a court of law yet. My amateur opinion is that they are and this is the opinion shared by many here which is why they are treated the same “knock offs”.

Semantics aside, it has been said that there are more then one manufacture for these puzzles so the quality may vary depending on which manufacture is making them. I do have to say that the 9x9x9 and 11x11x11 that I’ve played with were both of excellent quality, even better then any of my V-Cube 7s. We can only hope that when the V-Cube 9s and 11s do come out they are of equal or better quality. If not then there will be many disappointed people, myself included.

I just felt that I needed to say this even though it goes against popular opinion. Many people here are very upset at the existence of these puzzles and like to perpetuate the notion that they are complete crap since they are unofficial but in reality this is not always the case.


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 Post subject: Re: A good current 11x11x11
PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 3:31 pm 
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Regardless of semantics, it's still illegal for these puzzles to be distributed outside of China.

...On this topic, why do people even want such huge cubes? It just seems a little overkill to me.


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 Post subject: Re: A good current 11x11x11
PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 4:11 pm 
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Volitar Prime wrote:
First off I really disagree with referring to the 9x9x9s and 11x11x11s coming from China as "knock offs". For them to be a "knock off" an original has to exist for them to be copied from.
The term "Knock off" is not precise and so it is expected to be understood in the context of this site. Read our Knock Off policy and you will see that it is quite a bit broader than patent, copyright or the existence of a physical original.

In this sense, the design is being knocked off, not a physical object. Given the existence of the V-7 even the patent pictures aren't necessary to infer the 9x9x9 and 11x11x11. I am sure those puzzles don't use the exact same dimensions as the patent but that isn't the point. If they came out after a legitimate Verdes 9x9x9 or 11x11x11 they would also likely not use the exact same dimensions just the same.

So what is it about the physical existence of a Verdes puzzle that is necessary for the "knock off" definition? Nothing in my mind, and stripping it on such a technicality misses the point of our policy entirely.

Voltar Prime wrote:
Many people here are very upset at the existence of these puzzles and like to perpetuate the notion that they are complete crap since they are unofficial but in reality this is not always the case.
I completely agree.

The quality of these puzzles is independent of their ethical legitimacy or legal status. I don't think people should confuse the two nor assert that anything illegal or unethical is of poor quality. There is a pretty high correspondence between knock offs and cheap quality but one does not absolutely determine the other.

I don't think it particularly polite to Mr. Verdes for people to advertise for his illegal and unethical competition by talking them up as superior to his regardless of the validity of that claim. I also don't think blanket statements about their inferiority is the best way to try to drive people away from them.

This site is devoted to being an authority on puzzles and KO puzzles make this a tricky topic. Information about KO puzzles is important but must be tempered (e.g. purchasing information) with regard to our wish to respect those who have contributed immensely to our world.

Dave

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 Post subject: Re: A good current 11x11x11
PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 5:17 pm 
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Just out of curiosity, how can there be so many 3x3's and megaminx's (megaming maybe IDK :lol: ) without any of them being considered KO's.Was the Rubiks brand cube ever patented :?:


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 Post subject: Re: A good current 11x11x11
PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 5:24 pm 
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Beans wrote:
Just out of curiosity, how can there be so many 3x3's and megaminx's (megaming maybe IDK :lol: ) without any of them being considered KO's.Was the Rubiks brand cube ever patented :?:



Rubik's BRAND (brands are always petented)

Please note: There ARE many KO companies that create cubes. But due to the fact that there are so many different types of cubes (take DIY types for example [DIY type A I, II, III]) i guess we wouldn't consider them KO's. Just be aware of the cubes you are going to buy - If they are cheap, and usually white plastic (White Skewbs, Skewb Ultimate, ect.) that were already created by a patented company, its probably a KO.

I have been wondering for a while - are Diansheng cubes KO's? they're like $3 but good quality and great for mods O_o (I know of another brand which sells 3x3's with actual painted stickers, unlike diansheng where you can peel them off, but i do not want to mention their name because they produce the KO 11x11's and 9x9's : :shock: )

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 Post subject: Re: A good current 11x11x11
PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 5:49 pm 
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I do consider all the various DIY 3x3x3s to be KOs.


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 Post subject: Re: A good current 11x11x11
PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 7:56 pm 
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Megaminx is a funny one. I think the patent has expired on those. I know there is a 3d copyright on them. But even so, many companies are making these.

A chat with Uwe about them once. Mf8's designer asked about the sale of these-he did a bit of reworking-and they were on Meffert's site for a while.

It is incredibly hard to stop the KO companies. As soon as you get one, go to the authorities right. Wrong-you need a receipt. Ok, go a receipt so go to the authorities right. Wrong-you need to purchase from the manufacturers website. Ok you do that so go to the authorities right. Wrong-you need a bulk purchase of over xxxxx and a receipt which they conveniently forgot to send......

It's a very very long process. Hard to resolve. And while this is tackled in one way in the West, it seems to be totally different in the East. Maybe in time it will become easier-or maybe in time no one will care.

There is a company known for producing KO puzzles that has stated they will be making over 60 "new" puzzles this year alone. Most of these are modifications that were made in the 80's and early 90's. Some are modifications to puzzles that will come out next week :shock: The latter is obvious to be a KO, but the former? Many have never been mass produced so does that count?

More interesting to me is the flooding of the market. If they dump puzzles at the rate they plan, the market will eventually shut them down. Besides a small handful of people (like us) do others really care all that much about varieties of 3x3x3? Do they even know the difference? My belief is that time and simple economics will eventually kill the KO market. These small (and I do mean small) factories can't survive forever on the hopes that people will buy every version they have made.

So you want the problem to stop: just stop buying. It's simple.

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 Post subject: Re: A good current 11x11x11
PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 8:01 pm 
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Just to add my two cents. Prototypes (for proof of concept) have existed for long.
Now, those may not be copies directly from those prototypes, but as already stated
after knowing the patent details, it requires not much effort to create (apart from
some expected tolerance testing).

In fact, those puzzles were illegally copied from a patent and do not exist yet on the market.
This is even worse than puzzles being copied after the originals are made. Because it is
killing off a fresh (untested) newer puzzle market without giving any chance to the inventor.

Photos of the internals were taken since the first time they were physically encountered
at the Toy Fair (which was why there was legal action against those same companies).

So the word "Knock Off" (KO) may be used as a broader term, or if you wish "RLKOOAVPD"
(i.e. Real Life Knock Off Of A Virtual Patented Design). I guess the term "KO" may be used
instead anyway! (It is still an illegal copy regardless the angle you see it.)

;)


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 Post subject: Re: A good current 11x11x11
PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 8:17 pm 
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I agree with almost everything Every one says about ko puzzles. except for two things and i get grief for these but i do believe in them. I agree there should not be a ko market it ruins everything when companies out of greed flood the market with stuff. I.e. the first video game crash in the late 80s. two many people producing too much junk and blamo the market fell apart. same thing with sports cards was a time about all cards had some value. now cards are a dime a dozen and hardly worth jack. same for comic books. same for collectible figures and toys. just about every market has had its collecability destroyed by market flooding.

Back to my two things i don't agree with. one If someone holds a patent or the manufacturing rights. but does not and will not manufacture the puzzle, Then they aren't making any money on it anyway. so if a ko company makes a version of it i don't see whats wrong with buying it as its not costing the rights owner anything seeing how they aren't producing it.

The other thing, If a manufacture is the legal owner of the puzzle or the manufacturing rights holder of it, but produces a down right piece of junk puzzle(we all know what they are). I personally dont see whats wrong with going to a ko company if they make a far superior product. This should actually be a wake up call for the original manufacturer to stop producing a piece of junk. If a ko company can improve on a design and correct the problems then the original manufacturer should be able to do the same thing instead of just continuing to produce the same crappy puzzle.

with that said(again all just my opinion I am not encouraging anyone to go and get ko puzzles it is still technically wrong) 98% of the time the original is the best and you should always support the rights holder. but to you 2% that just keep selling the same junk come on you have a very loyal customer base and you should do right by them.


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 Post subject: Re: A good current 11x11x11
PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 9:25 pm 
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So whats the good word Pantazis? Can we expect any higher order stuff from V-Cubes this year?

*sorry, but all I think about when I hear about these KO's is when I'm going to have a new V-Cube


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 Post subject: Re: A good current 11x11x11
PostPosted: Wed May 26, 2010 12:05 am 
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Briebee7210 wrote:
Back to my two things i don't agree with. one If someone holds a patent or the manufacturing rights. but does not and will not manufacture the puzzle, Then they aren't making any money on it anyway. so if a ko company makes a version of it i don't see whats wrong with buying it as its not costing the rights owner anything seeing how they aren't producing it.
This particular issue has been discussed before (search for 11x11x11 and KO threads for plenty to read). To summarize a response:

"does not and will not manufacture" does not match Verdes' statements for many years now. Check the V-Cubes site, which makes clear they want to produce these puzzles. Good money has been spent on patent protection for them. Just because something hasn't yet happened is no reason to assume it won't. Research the history of Verdes on this forum and you will see a lot of complaints about how no one would ever see the V5-7s. They were wrong, and the puzzle world will never be the same since their release.

KOs stealing a market can and do delay products. We have seen this with the Super Floppy as well. People blame the victim, complaining that they wouldn't buy the KO if the original would just be released. But of course it is their support of KO companies that is causing the delay.

As to "not losing anything" they are actively losing sales right now. A few collectors legitimately can claim they would buy the original even after buying a KO even for these high priced puzzles. But the vast majority of the already small market will probably only buy one as an expensive novelty. So I imagine all the KO higher order cubes are customers lost to Verdes when he can come out with his.

If Verdes were to come out and openly claim no intentions to build the puzzles then I am sure there would be pressure for him to at least license his patent to other manufacturers. But he has done nothing of the kind and support of his competition hurts him directly.

Dave

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 Post subject: Re: A good current 11x11x11
PostPosted: Wed May 26, 2010 12:46 am 
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I agree with all the above. However I also agree with Briebee7210's comments to a certain extent, that inventors have at least some moral obligation to bring their inventions to the world as soon as possible (provided they do not compromise too much on quality) instead of just sitting on a patent that blocks everyone else from doing so. During that time, somebody else could have come up with the same idea independently and brought it to market, therefore sitting on a patent with no intention to do anything with it reasonably quickly actually destroys its potential value to society (on the basis that release of one invention enables others to come up with new inventions). In fact a patent can be legally challenged and revoked on the basis that reasonable steps are not being taken to exploit it commercially. A patent is only intended to give the inventor a *reasonable* window of market exclusivity and opportunity to bring the idea to market, in return for publishing the secrets behind the idea so that others can copy and use the idea later (after the patent has expired). The patent system is certainly not designed to allow an inventor to sit on his idea and block others from exploiting it, without "reasonable" efforts to exploit it himself. That would be unethical.

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Last edited by KelvinS on Wed May 26, 2010 1:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: A good current 11x11x11
PostPosted: Wed May 26, 2010 1:01 am 
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To Briebee:

Most importantly we should never forget that without the inventor there would have been no product!
And even if they mass market crappy puzzles (which is not the case almost always), we should at least
respect that.

As for other news, nothing new at this stage.

;)


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 Post subject: Re: A good current 11x11x11
PostPosted: Wed May 26, 2010 6:12 am 
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Dlitwin : I am sorry sometimes i get carried away and forget to be more specific . I was not referring to the v-cube line. I just meant in general. but, with that said There has been plenty of cases taken to court over products. where one company holds the patent and all the rights,but does not have the means or tech to bring it to market,or wait too long and another company goes ahead and takes the item and produces it. The patent holder takes them to court and loses. I don't know details but in the u.s. anyways i think there are laws that just because your the patent holder if you don't utilize the patent or show intent to use it that someone else can.

At least I am guessing so because i have seen patent holders lose before because they didn't use the patent. or maybe it was all legal slight of hand you know how these companies are.

The whole patent and copy right thing is crazy anyway at least has gotten that way, I mean really UPS holds a patent on the color brown they paint their trucks. and mcdonalds holds a copy right on the phrase " I'm LOV"IN IT" opps I think I have to pay a royalty now. I mean really your copy righting words now? or patenting colors found in nature?

and also as any movie buff can tell ya in the last 7 years there has been no singing of the song happy birthday to you in movies or t.v shows because someone came forward and proved they held the rights to the song and would not let anyone use it. it is just kinda crazy to some degree.

It all comes down to money and power instead of just bettering people as a whole. I for one make this promise if i come up with some super awesome puzzle everyone wants and enjoys ,and i have no means to produce it or make it a marketable product. I will let anyone who wants to produce it do it so that it betters the community as a whole and not just me keeping it away from everyone trying to figure out how i can get a buck out of it. I mean well I dont want to be homeless or starve lol but you get my point I guess. But i sure wont sell 2 dollars worth of plastic and screws for 50 and 100 dollars like some do. the prices are a bit much.

But with all that said and to bottom line it not to be religious but "Let He Who is Without Sin Cast the First Stone"
Other then a very few of you most everyone has a few not so legit puzzles in their mits I am sure . If one company makes a puzzle for 100 dollars and a second company sells one for 15 dollars. 9 out of 10 people are gonna go the 15 dollar route. times is hard. has nothing to do with morals or law or the right thing. It has to do with what you can afford.

LIke dogic for excample alot of people want one of these but can not and some times will not pay 2 or 3 hundred for them. Mefferet should produce these again and keep the market legit. Because if they dont some china company will and flood the market with ko ones and with the price of originals i bet ya most all of you would go buy one ko or not. again not a blanket statement i know they owners of originals would not and people in the industry would not but most all of the general puzzle public would because it is the only source thats reasonable.

Just ignore me for the most part i just like to talk lol and im half asleep anyway lol I do love you guys dont hate me.


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 Post subject: Re: A good current 11x11x11
PostPosted: Wed May 26, 2010 5:54 pm 
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Briebee7210 wrote:
But with all that said and to bottom line it not to be religious but "Let He Who is Without Sin Cast the First Stone"
Other then a very few of you most everyone has a few not so legit puzzles in their mits I am sure . If one company makes a puzzle for 100 dollars and a second company sells one for 15 dollars. 9 out of 10 people are gonna go the 15 dollar route. times is hard. has nothing to do with morals or law or the right thing. It has to do with what you can afford.
Take a look here for some thoughts on the issue of "can afford". In summary: These are amusements, not necessities. Some might be ready to throw out morals, law or the "right thing" to merely to amuse themselves but I don't think they will find much sympathy here when it is at the expense of valued forum members.

Dave

P.S. This is becoming yet another KO thread. I think the issue of "A good current 11x11x11" has been discussed and answered so I think I'll close this off.

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